Pay Attention, Mary Lacy: Prosecutors are accountable for their actions

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Watching You, Jun 12, 2007.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Look, obviously, LOTS of people were misled in this case, by a conniving woman, a corrupt/incompetent DA, all those who might have had other agendas feeding the lies--like the parents and family, who might have expected a big law suit payout down the road, and the slow processes by which it has all come to light.

    Early on, I withheld judgment for the most part, though I have "believe the victim" training myself. I must admit that I thought it was very possible that the woman was raped, and the reason is that I find little in this world more dangerous than a group of young men looking for "a good time." Hence, the high auto insurance rates for young men between ages 16-26. Add in alcohol and sex, and you've got a disaster waiting to happen, IMO.

    Now I see that in this case, the young men were NOT guilty of rape and the woman is obviously someone without a conscience who is a lowlife in every respect. That the DA added fuel to the fire before the evidence came in, and hid the truth of the evidence once he knew it, certainly muddied up the facts for a long time. During that time, the young men and their families suffered undue hardship. I hope this will be turned around for them now, and that they will learn some productive lessons and become stronger adults for it, rather than bitter.

    But jumping on JC for initial suspicions is a bit disingenous, IMO. Like Moab, the DIPLOMATIC PYRATE, said, when we get initial reports, we form opinions. Those change as the evidence unfolds. And while the Duke players were not guilty of committing any crime, I am going to stop short of applauding their initial behavior. No, they didn't "ask for it." No, I'm not blaming the victim. But they were hardly acting admirably at the party in question. Even if nothing had ever happened, no accusations, but I just heard about this party of players hiring strippers, I'd say the same thing: yeah, it's a "guy thing," and no, I'm never going to be okay with young men objectifying women for sex, and no, I'm never going to be okay with women degrading themselves for money. It's just the wrong way to go, IMO.

    But that's life, and I have lived long enough to know that young people have to learn these things for themselves. I was once young myself, as long ago as that was, and looking back at some of my own actions, I shake my head and wonder WHAT was I thinking? So I hope that some good will come of this. I hope the black/white issues take us forward with dialogue, not backward. I hope young men and women learn that risky behavior can result in bad consequences.

    And I wish the Duke players well.
  2. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    Yes, that was the thread, Heymom.

    These cases have to be taken on a case-by-case basis. The fact is, there are men who rape women. And, there are women who falsely accuse men of rape. Sometimes women are mistaken. There is a case in Buffalo, NY, right now where a man who spent 22 years in prison for raping a woman was released from prison because, years after the fact, DNA was tested, and it was found the rape was committed by the so-called Bike Path Rapist, instead. The victim of the rape made an honest mistake - the two men looked amazingly alike 22 years ago, and she misidentified her attacker. She feels so bad that an innocent man spent 22 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. Her rapist went on to rape and murder several other victims in the Buffalo area while an innocent and mentally ill man sat in a prison cell.

    Recently a new law was passed bearing this man's name that provides compensation for innocent people who have been incarcerated.

    Thank heaven for DNA. There aren't as many mistakes being made today because of DNA evidence.
  3. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    I have a tendency to believe the victim, but I also expect them to "show me." From the first few reports on this case, I told an internet friend that those boys probably didn't find her attractive, so she made up a bunch of racist crap to get back at them. I was right. And the media blew the whole thing into a national incident.
  4. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    I didn't jump on JC, KK. The impression I got was that JC had strong feelings that the girl was raped and the three guys did it. I only asked if she still believed that. I don't think it is ever okay to just believe the victim or anyone else when it comes to rape, except where children are concerned. That automatically assumes the victim is telling the truth and the man is lying. That is one time when keeping an open mind until all the facts are in should be of the utmost importance, because victims come in all shapes, sizes, and gender. A man can be a victim of lies as well as a woman can be a victim of rape.

    But, we've been here before, and there's no sense in getting it going again.
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, heymom, I have strong feelings as well on the topic, so sorry if I come across as my usual bull-headed self. I am a taurus, after all. Ask Moab. :floor:

    I edited my post to try to clarify some of those feelings about the whole john/hooker mentality. Maybe JC reacted intially like I did because of them. Maybe not. I'm sure he/she will tell us.

    As for "believing the victim" issues, that comes from an ADVOCATE position, not a LEGAL one. Sometimes, yes, people lie. But as an advocate, you don't make that judgment. That's for the law. You are simply there to help those who ARE victims, and trying to get to the bottom of EVIDENCE is not possible for advocates initially, nor is it THEIR job. That's the job of LE and the DA. In this case, it obviously was badly done.
  6. heymom

    heymom Member

    Then if you say "The ******* finally at least did the minimal 'right thing' by acknowledging his errors and resigning," all is clear.

    However, this is not a man who has taken responsibility for what he did, not when he is saying in public that he STILL thinks something happened that night, implying yet again that the boys are lying. What an evil act. Again, he's stirring up that racism from the black community, siding with the people who are ignoring all the clear evidence and still feeling pity for the SKANK who started this whole thing.

    Isn't Jesse still offering to pay her ticket to college? Guess he still believes she's some kind of victim too.
  7. heymom

    heymom Member

    I am not objective, partly because I believe that the Boulder Police officers acted more like advocates than cops when they first pulled up to the Ramsey household. I could not be an advocate because I seem to have a sense of when people are lying and I could not mop up their fake tears and hand them tissues.

    I'm also not objective because like Freebird, I have sons, and have seen the constant attack on maleness throughout their childhoods. Males are ridiculed, mocked, put down in every way, daily, especially in with media.

    If these were my sons, I would be suing Duke for every penny of that fat endowment, and I'd scream until the SKANK was also brought up on charges. How dare these people try to destroy these boys' lives and then want to just walk away?

    Reade Seligmann has a lot of class, and a lot of dignity. I wish him and the other boys a great future.
  8. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Nifong isn't really sorry for what he's done--he's sorry it all blew up in his face. The State Bar was visibly disgusted with him, and wasted no time in disbarring him. They called him "a Minister of Injustice" and basically called him a politically predatory liar.
  9. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    Point taken!
    I also agree with your post that he is sorry he got caught. I guess it is pretty easy to anty up the apology at that point. I didn't hear about the parting shot still implying the boys were still lying until it was posted here!
  10. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

  11. JC

    JC Superior Cool Member

    I didn't think it was a parting shot. I think he said what he believes, and it just slipped out.

    Whose dna was on her, I wonder. Was it tricks she'd just turned or what. I don't guess any of it is important anymore. I'm curious like that. I think she is an addict, why else would she be on prescription methadone.

    That is no excuse to intentionally lie, but I personally can see where an addict would get confused about things. I don't know what happened; I do know airing my thoughts isn't worth ill feelings with fellow :bee: :bee: :bee:.

    I love you guys.
  12. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    She is an addict. She could barely stand when she got there and they took pics of her slumped over in the living room and on the back porch. From what I recall, her complete intoxication was one of the reasons the guys felt like they weren't getting what they paid for. She was on pain-killers and alcohol.

    One sample of the semen came from her boyfriend, the others...well, probably from her other clients. I have a friend who is a stripper and she said that when girls first start out stripping, they stick to dancing. But if they are young enough and good-looking enough, they are often asked to do more for an increased rate. They call this a "private party" as opposed to a regular party. It usually starts out with a grope or whatever, but as time goes on and the money gets better, they go further. Before you know it, they are having full on sexual intercourse and it doesn't really hit them that they've become prostitutes--it's a gradual seductive thing. Having a coke habit helps to blur the line between right and wrong. Once a girl gets used to making big money as a dancer (where else would Crystal Magnum make $800 per night?) it's extremely hard to go back to making "straight money." I have had so many female friends ask me if I thought they should become dancers "for the money" and I always explain the scenario that many girls fall into eventually.

    True, not all do, but who wants to be the unlucky girl?
  13. JC

    JC Superior Cool Member

    They have. "Throughout our ordeal, however, we never forgot the lessons we learned, both on and off the field, about character, integrity, and honor. Those lessons, and the love and support of our wonderful families, friends, lawyers and supporters across the country helped us to prevail against those who refused to seek the truth and to protect all citizens from injustice."
  14. JC

    JC Superior Cool Member

    I thought (and am not convinced otherwise) she was raped; I didn't and don't know who did it or when it happened, if it happened.

    There is a child molestation case in our area, WY; the child was sexually abused (allegedly, of course), raped if you will, just not violently - it happened repeatedly.

    At the trial, it was not automatically assumed the victim, a 6 yr. old child, is telling the truth. The defense, in fact, strongly suggests she is lying.
  15. JC

    JC Superior Cool Member

    It's a life I wouldn't want to live, and by the grace of God, I don't.

    Btw, I swear, if it's the last thing I get done this summer, I WILL get a picture of Booger posted.
  16. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Who's Booger?

    This is my puppy Noodles

    Attached Files:

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  17. heymom

    heymom Member

    I would rather that they learned these lessons through some other experience, not being falsely accused and wrongly convicted before they were tried. Their names were smeared all over the press and many people will continue to recognize them and probably think ill of them in spite of the truth. They had HUGE legal bills, some of which may be offset by the Duke settlement.

    And the SKANK will get away with her despicable act.

    Edit: I have been thinking about this during dinner...I am sorry that I called the addict a skank. Actually, I think Mike Nifong should be charged with the rape, since he is the one who SCREWED everybody here, including this pathetic woman. I feel sorry for her. Nifong should go to jail. I'm also sorry for his family.
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2007
  18. heymom

    heymom Member

    Noodles Caboodles!

    He's so sweet! (it is HE isn't it?)
  19. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Noodley Doo is a girl.
  20. heymom

    heymom Member

    Sorry, Noodles! I should have known by that adorable expression that you were a little girl...

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