Ramseys said "no anger" towards JBR's killer; JAR said killer deserved "forgiveness"

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Cherokee, Jul 24, 2012.

  1. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Dr. Lee was specifically talking about JonBenet's death, not the cover up, and he used the word "accident" to say the circumstances of JonBenet's death's were NOT premediated. By using the adjective "horrific" Dr. Lee implied there was anger and rage involved, and he wasn't talking about a "falling down the stairs" type accident.

    In addition, by using the adjective "domestic," Dr. Lee implied there was no intruder, but that JonBenet's death was caused by a family member in the house at the time.
  2. heymom

    heymom Member

    I know that, Cherokee. It was a response to Elle's question of autism. That is why I went into the explanation of high functioning autism or Asperger's. Have had quite a bit of exposure to different grades of Aspies myself.

  3. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Heymom, I was specifically addressing what you said about "Burke was never diagnosed with anything, and in fact, has graduated from college with a B.S. in computer science, and is now working in his chosen field."

    I thought from what you wrote you were saying Burke had never been diagnosed with anything, and that by graduating college and working in "his chosen field," it somehow proved he probably didn't have Asperger's.

    My point was we don't KNOW if Burke was diagnosed with anything because his medical/psychological records have never been released, but he certainly has the symptoms of high-functioning Asperger's.

    As I've said before, it's often hard to tell from just the internet written word what a person is trying to say. You can't hear the tone, and it's harder to intuit meaning. Thanks for the clarification.
  4. heymom

    heymom Member

    No, what I meant to say is that Burke is definitely NOT the "Rain Man" type of autistic. Since he has gone through school, has friends, seems to have normal interests, and has graduated from college, and has a job, that would rule out the middle section of the spectrum. We know he's not on the severe end, so that leaves Asperger's, with a scale of its own. I'd judge him to be on the higher end of high-functioning. Of course I don't know him, or how his relationships turn out, so if I were to encounter him I might change my mind. But certainly all the outward signs that we have seen, indicate someone who can and is functioning well within society.

    Assuming of course, that he's not simply a sociopath.
  5. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    I would love to hear your thoughts on this. I'm reading Kolar's book and the chapter "Enigma" is really blowing my mind. I have questions that I'd not considered before.

    On p. 351 he says, "... Dr. Bernhard explained that anxiety such as that displayed by Burke at points in his interview comes from caring and that this type of behavior is not typically observed in sociopathic personalities."

    But after reading all the other info... like I said, questions. For one thing, I have to wonder what the "anxiety" is about. I mean, is it really caring... then "caring" about what? Could it be anxiety about being caught or angering a parent etc? Are there situations where a sociopathic child would display (or act out) anxiety?

    I'd be very interested in hearing your and others' thoughts about the info in this chapter.
  6. heymom

    heymom Member

    I think she meant that on some level, the question or the answer to it matters to him. I am sure she did not mean "caring" in the sense of love and/or empathy, but more that he has some sort of reaction about the question. A true sociopath would not "care" about getting caught out by a parent, and probably wouldn't much care about angering a parent either.

    Burke also over-reacted when Dr. Bernhardt accidentally took a drink of his soda - he got angry and said he could no longer drink from it. That shows a rigid mental state, and someone who could get angry because of someone else's innocent act. Maybe the Dr. was trying to prod him into losing his temper so she could judge how angry he was.

    Now, I am no expert on sociopaths. I have done a LOT of reading, and some people in the field of abnormal psychiatry do feel that these "soulless" individuals are born that way, and show the signs of it at an early age. Some have abuse done to them, and their response is to stop caring about others completely.

    What I found fascinating is that Kolar describes these "sexually aggressive" children (their acts are sexual but that does mean they are acting out anything sexual, if that makes any sense) can commit violent acts, even murder, but that there is hope that they can recover through therapy. I always assumed that any child who could do this to another person, especially a sibling, was a sociopath who would act out again in his lifetime. Even true sociopaths can control themselves if they need to stay out of the spotlight - there are many serial killers who have stopped murdering for 10, 20, even 30 years and then either started up again, or turned themselves in. But usually, once a person commits this kind of violence, it seems to lead to repeat occurrences.

    That was always my concern for the BDI people - if he did, why hasn't he done anything else since that night? Now, I can't ask that question any more, since he was in therapy, it would seem both before and after JonBenet's murder. Maybe he was one of the people who did get "cured." Unless he eventually either confesses, or acts out again, we will never know.
  7. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    Heymom - Thanks so much for your reply.

    Wonder if there could be a genetic link to John Ramsey here. Sure seems to me that JR could be a sociopath, pathological liar that he is.

    That makes sense.
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I think these questions we have are at the heart of why Kolar wouldn't commit to page his own theory of what happened that night and in this family.

    Without the actual studied medical history, observed and diagnosed by a professional in child psychology who did spend time in sessions with Burke sufficient to make a diagnosis, it's like guessing why the wind gusts blew a tree over but left the lawn furniture sitting there undisturbed.

    Personally, I think children in general aren't fully developed socially or biologically to the point of earning a permanent label with a specific diagnosis such as sociopathic. We all have human survival instincts that we have to train and control, after all. Even as adults, we can react in extreme situations as we wouldn't otherwise. It's why the law considers "mitigating circumstances" in sentencing for crimes.

    I believe Kolar even pointed out sexual aggression as a SBP is something that can be successfully treated in a relatively short time, according to the expert source he consulted on the subject?

    It does seem the Ramseys had Burke in therapy a long time, for a kid they claimed didn't even ask questions about why his beloved sister disappeared from his life one Christmas night.
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2012
  9. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    I'm with you, KK. Although what Kolar writes in his book about BR is interesting and provocative, but many of BR's "behaviors" seemed to me as mostly kid stuff that is relatively normal. I also think Kolar assigns (theoretically) BR adult attributes (like trying to mislead adults) that in a 9 YO, in my view, isn't likely.

    Most of you probably don't know this, but before I started working in the video game field, when I was straight out of college, I worked as a House Parent with emotionally disturbed kids. A House Parent is a person who lives in a cottage with ED kids who are mostly in high school or jr. High, and our treatment center was most of the kids' last chance between school and prison. We house parents gave the kids their meds, held group therapy sessions when issues came up, and basically acted as psychiatric babysitters. I went to school for psych so that's why I was in that field briefly (about a year).

    That year was incredibly shocking to me, but also extremely informative about the real world, as opposed to what you see in the media. The truth about what happens to some children in "normal homes," is stuff your average person would never believe. I am talking about little girls being raped by mothers' boyfriends from the age of six months, or an Aunt locking their naked 6 YO nephew in a closet with her, as she fondled him. I am not trying to be gross here, but these things go on.

    I was so young at the time, and very naive, but I quickly learned to trust that feeling in my gut when something about a kid "wasn't right." I would have 11 YO girls climb onto my lap and try to fondle my crotch--it was so creepy. But once you read their case files, you would come to understand that these children came to think that being sexual with an adult male was what adult men "wanted." We would have to discipline them but the original damage that happened early on in their lives was the foundation.

    That being my background, I will say that when I saw that first pageant vid of JBR, I got that sick feeling in my gut. Remember this was 15 years ago when nobody ever heard of kiddie pageants. I am only saying that something in my gut felt wrong when I saw those vids.

    My gut never lies.

    Today, these kiddie pageants are considered somewhat normal.
  10. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Reality is shocking, BobC.

    If Burke was active in the abuse and death of JonBenet, and if he is now a relatively normal, productive member of society because his parents were able privately to get him the care he needed, great. It only cost the People about $2 mil and all those who were suspected, accused, hounded, libeled, and whose careers and lives were negatively impacted paid for it.

    It's very hard to determine the truth without more medical info, though, and that's the position Kolar is in, I think. Very hard.

    Oh, I can't watch these Toddlers and Tiaras horrors. I can't. Makes me sick to see these children being exploited so brazenly by their stupid, ignorant, frights for parents.
  11. heymom

    heymom Member

    I know what you mean. I guess I have that same "gut feeling" when people lie on camera. Every time someone gets on camera and "dry cries," or puts on some other fake emotion, I can see right through them. I thought everyone could, but I've talked to people who didn't see it with Patsy and John, and didn't see it with Susan Smith or OJ either. It's so obvious to me, they may as well have a neon sign over their heads ("I'm LYING!").

    That must have been a very shocking and difficult experience, Bob. I know my work in the group home for multiply-handicapped kids, some of whom had been abused by parents or boyfriends of their moms, was very difficult.
  12. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I, also, think that there might have been some very real sibling jealousy which could have aggravated whatever psychiatric problem BR could have had if he had any. Once the source of jealousy was out of the way, the malady, with some counseling, etc., might have diminshed....just thinking out loud.

    Also, something else I wanted to mention in regards to Kolar's suspicions about BR's possible problem. Didn't BR's grandmother make a sick remark about the size of BR's you know what? I can't imagine a grandmother mentioning something like that...something odd and strange about that family...it makes you wonder how much they talked about such things around the children....
  13. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I don't want to hijack this thread with a personal story, but I believe discussion about child abuse, both sexual and otherwise, is relevant to the Ramsey case, and in particular, the evidence Kolar has put forth in his book.

    When we lived in a town of about 45,000 many years ago, a friend of mine worked in a group home for abused children. Most of them were teenagers whom no one wanted to foster or adopt, or they had been removed by CPS for documented abuse in their family homes and had nowhere else to go. All of the children (girls and boys) had been sexually abused at some time in their lives. Many had turned to drugs and alcohol to dull the pain. The stories they told were horrendous. My friend told me, "you wouldn't believe the families some of these kids come from, and YOU WOULD BE SHOCKED to know who some of them were because their parents are well known; movers and shakers in this town." It really did surprise me to hear that. It's sad, but we usually think of abusers as being from the lowest socionomic level, but my friend assured me that this was not the case.

    A few years later, I found out another friend of mine had been sexually abused by her choir teacher (in the high school across town from mine). He had also been the assistant minister of an Assembly of God church at the time. For that reason, my friend didn't think anyone would believe her if she told what he did to her. Apparently, as each "chosen" girl graduated, the choir teacher took another, and so he'd had a long line of "teacher's pets" (kind of like Jerry Sandusky). After years of therapy, my friend wanted to confront him, but by then, he was dying of cancer, so she didn't. His secret died with him, and the church was packed. Only the girls he fondled and raped for almost 30 years knew who he really was.

    I said all that to say what I've said many times before ... we have no idea what goes on behind closed doors in the "finest" and "best" familes. We have an image of people because that is the image they want to present to us. Unless we are around them 24/7, every minute of the day and night, we really don't know who they are. Think about the BTK Killer who was president of his church board and considered a good family man. Dennis Rader's wife had no idea he led a double life, or that he stored his killing tools (and victim memetos) in his backyard shed. She LIVED with him for over 20 years and had two children with him, yet she wasn't around him 24/7, every day and every night.

    My brother and his wife are foster parents to a 26-year-old young man who is a victim of Shaken Baby Syndrome. Mason was born as a normal young baby boy, but by the time he was 18 months, he was totally blind and his body twisted from being thrown and drop-kicked down stairs. He spent a year in the hospital and nearly died. Mason's gorgeous blue eyes see nothing, and he eats via a feeding tube because so much damage was done to his brain that he cannot swallow. Mason cannot walk or turn himself over or move on his own, but he can still laugh, and sometimes he does. We do all kinds of things to make him laugh.

    Mason's mother and her boyfriend went to prison for what they did to him, but his maternal grandmother REFUSES to believe her daughter abused Mason and almost killed him. Instead, the grandmother talks about "when Mason got sick." She tries to pretend that an illness caused Mason's sudden and complete blindness, the broken bones and bruises, and the ruptured internal organs. In the face of incontrovertible proof and evidence, Mason's grandmother chooses to believe Mason is not living with the results of being nearly beaten, shook and kicked to death, and she chooses to believe that her daughter is innocent.

    The grandmother is just like those who want to believe John, Patsy and Burke are innocent because they cannot conceive of anyone wanting to harm their child or sibling. We assign images to people and we choose what we want to believe about them. We let our emotions cloud our thinking and refuse to consider what might go on behind closed doors.

    THIS is why Kolar wrote his book. He wants us to look behind the closed Ramsey door and see the dysfunction and the reality behind the "perfect" family facade. The evidence for how JonBenet died leads to the Ramseys. There will never be a prosecution of the case, but Kolar has cracked that closed door open so we can, at least, have an idea of what might have happened that Christmas night. "Keeping up appearances" isn't just the name of a British TV show. It is the way many people live their lives, and it is more important to them than anything else in the world, even their own flesh and blood.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2012
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh, Chero, that's just the saddest post ever.

    I think anyone is truly lucky who has never known someone who was a victim of some kind of child abuse or who wasn't a victim him/herself.

    Realistically, I doubt that person actually exists. He/she just may not know the truth; but the statistics are that one in three females and one in five males were sexually abused as children.
  15. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    BobC, Cherokee, Hey Mom and everyone else. How very sad all of that is. And yes how true that behind closed doors much is hidden from view.

    Hiding Burke's medical records certainly tells us that something was up with him otherwise why bother. If nothing is there then just turn them over to authorities. But with all the things that the Ramseys didn't turn over like phone records, clothes from that day, shoes, package of under pants for starters there was a reason why they held them back. They only announced loudly it seems that something might be discovered if they did.
  16. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Bumping up this thread ...

    For all the guests reading here after hearing about the Grand Jury's indictment of John and Patsy Ramsey for not preventing JonBenet's on-going sexual abuse and death.

    It makes sense why John and Patsy said, just a week after JonBenet's was found dead in their home, they weren't angry at the person who had killed her. They just wanted to know why it happened.

    It also explains why John's son (from a previous marriage), John Andrew Ramsey, when asked by investigators what JonBenet's killed deserved, he said "forgiveness."
  17. heymom

    heymom Member

    It's all adding up pretty well, Cherokee. Does anyone really believe that Patsy would protect John or that John would protect Patsy, if either of them had been responsible for JonBenet's death? NO WAY!

    These "soft" answers give away the truth. They must have all known what had happened by then, and were protecting the person so he could get treatment and not be hauled away into the mental health system.
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