So many abrasions!!

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Karen, Jul 23, 2012.

  1. Karen

    Karen Member

    Hi Heymom, I don't consider Patsy's cancer to be a factor at that time as she was well over it and not even taking any drugs and medication for it anymore. She was getting clean bills of health by then. I agree JR wasn't any help to her during her illness.
    I think it was a household that had traditional roles as far as what the men do and what the women do, (although now it seems like women do so much more,) I think it was probably John Ramseys job to take the video and photos Christmas morning and not Patsys. He even said HE didn't take video because HE forgot to charge the batteries. So it leads me to think it was considered HIS job to do that. I don't know if I believe that story or not. IF there was someone else in the house and ON that video I don't think they would want that seen by LE. I don't really want to defend this theory because I'm not sure if it's something I subscribe to or not, I was just mulling it over.
    There was some talk somewhere around here somewhere recently about Doug Stine possibly going to Michigan with the Ramseys and possibly having been picked up when they dropped off the gifts on the way home from the Whites Christmas night. And maybe that's why the Stines were so close with the Ramseys after that, even picking up and quitting good jobs to follow them to Atlanta and things like that. Like I said I don't particularly subscribe to this theory but it is something I keep somewhere in the back of my mind since we don't know what really happened that night. I stay open to listening to and considering everything.
  2. Elle

    Elle Member

    I wish we could have seen this video Karen. More than likely, if there was one, they destroyed it!
  3. heymom

    heymom Member

    Ok, thanks for the further information. The saddest thing is, most of us will NEVER know what really happened in the Ramsey house that night. I expect that John will take what he knows to his grave, and Burke as well. Maybe Fleet White could have spoken out at some point, but that moment has come and gone too, and all hope of a trial has long ago been lost.

    May JonBenet finally get her justice on the other side.

  4. Elle

    Elle Member


    Please correct me if I'm wrong. A few years have passed and I think I remember you telling me you actually worked with abused children. Am I right? Forgive me, I just feel you were involved in some way or another, and this is why you have certain views. My apologies if I am wrong! (?).
  5. heymom

    heymom Member

    I worked for a while in a group home for severely handicapped children/teens. Many of them were there due to physical abuse, either from parents or someone who had charge of them. Some had been shaken as babies, and were blind and very disabled because of that. There were other stories that would make you go pale and start to cry. It was very hard to keep a positive attitude, not because of the kids themselves, because they were great, but because of what had been done to them. We made a home-like atmosphere, as much as possible, and some of the other staff were FANTASTIC at their work, but it was one of those times in my life where my normally idealistic and optimistic viewpoint was destroyed. People do terrible things to children, even parents, even siblings. It happens, and the children don't always die right then. We were left with the results.
  6. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh, heymom. You do the work of the Angels.

    It's hard to understand or contemplate what human beings do to the most vulnerable among us. Children, the elderly, and animals are mistreated in ways most of us cannot bear to even hear about.

    I guess this is why we can't give up on exposing not only what was done to JonBenet, but all those WHO PROTECTED THIS ABUSER, while abusing SO MANY OTHERS in the process.

    It's who the Ramseys AND THEIR EXCUSERS ARE, after all.

    And it CANNOT STAND.
  7. heymom

    heymom Member

    KK, I couldn't take the work for very long. There are people who do it all day, every day, year after year. I just found that my sadness was deepening over time, and I did not want that to affect the kids. They were great, and I consider my short time with them (about 8 mos.) to have been an honor to ME.

    This was long before I had children of my own. Now, I might be stronger, having raised my own children, but the sickening reality of child abuse would still be in the forefront.

    I can imagine Patsy thinking, "Better she should die than be a "vegetable." Because she couldn't have anything less than perfect, better that JonBenet be in the ground than be handicapped for the rest of her life.
  8. heymom

    heymom Member

  9. Elle

    Elle Member

    Yes, I remember now heymom. Not everyone can handle this type of work. I would imagine it changed your life forever. I can't understand anyone being bad to small children. It upsets me. It was good you gave them your time. I can well imagine the atmosphere changing your life.
    Sincerely hope these bad parents changed their behavior. Not a job one can do for life!
  10. heymom

    heymom Member

    As I recall, many of them ended up in prison, but not all of them. And there is the all too frequent occurrence of the mom's boyfriend being the abuser. Then it's a case of stupidity/neglect that puts the children in harms' way. In that case, the parents had give up their rights to the child and he or she was now a ward of the state. Some of them came to visit, most didn't. It was all very very sad.

    But again, the kids were great and deserved to have as normal a life as we could give them. They all went to school, no matter how profoundly handicapped they were (inclusion in normal classrooms). We spoke to them and treated them as though they were able to hear and understand us, even if we doubted what they could understand. Most of them couldn't feed themselves and we had to grind up their food, but we fixed them regular meals. They watched TV and movies. We took them on field trips to the park.

    Just before I quit, one of the most handicapped little boys passed away.

  11. Elle

    Elle Member

    Oh how sad, heymom! As we grow up as children, we should all be better prepared for those children less fortunate in life, so we can all reach out and help. Unfortunately this doesn't happen. Life sure is a trial. You are the only person I have come in contact with who has had the courage to do this.

    Our apologies posters for straying away from the true content of this thread!
  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Elle, this is exactly the true content of this thread, and this forum.

    JonBenet was abused, sexually and physically, for some time before the night she was killed.

    If she had survived that head blow, she would have been exactly like the children heymom cared for.

    Brutal truth, isn't it?

    And one the Ramseys were and are willing to lie, deceive, and attack anyone and everyone to continue to deny.
  13. Elle

    Elle Member

    Thank you, KK. I meant the JonBenét Ramsey case! As a child, growing up and attending school, I was never taken to any other school where there were handicapped children. I feel we should have been taught more about this side of life. Yes, KK. I see your point!
  14. JC

    JC Superior Cool Member

    The poster Bluecrab had a theory that always made a lot of sense to me, altho I can't remember what it was. It seems like it involved JAR and a friend of his, Nathan something or another.
  15. heymom

    heymom Member

    Yes, I think everyone should pause to consider that the Ramseys did have a choice as to what happened to JonBenet. If they had called 911 when she was found, she may have survived, although it was unlikely. If she had survived, she would have been very, VERY handicapped if not in a coma for the rest of her life (probably a short one even so, because pneumonia takes a lot of people in comas, very disabled, etc.). How could Patsy have lived with her little Pageant Princess being disabled or not perfect? They, in essence, euthanized JonBenet because they decided that she was nearly dead or likely to die, or she would be very disabled and in pain if she lived. So they assisted her death, i.e. murdered her.
  16. Elle

    Elle Member

    For sure, they knew little JonBenét's life was over!
  17. heymom

    heymom Member

    But would Patsy really cover up for John's son and/or his friend? I think these theories are going rather far afield, frankly. I don't see Patsy being loyal to her step-kids in the same way that she would be to her own children. John might put her up to it, though. But I think her reactions when the detective starts to ask her questions about Burke, "Don't go there, buddy!" are quite telling!
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
  18. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    PATSY RAMSEY: "Burke Ramsey did not do this, okay. He did not do this. Get off it."

    Not only does Patsy get angry when Tom Haney questions her if Burke could have been involved in JonBenet's death, she changes her story about whether she's talked to Burke about it. At one point, Patsy says they haven't talked to Burke about it, but later, when pressed by Tom Haney why Burke couldn't have been involved, Patsy says it is BECAUSE she has talked to him about it!

    Patsy also says Burke has never asked any questions about JonBenet's murder. Very unusual. Most family members would WANT to know, especially if there was a supposed intruder who came into the house. Maybe Burke didn't need to ask questions about JonBenet's death because he already knew most of the answers?

    John and Patsy Ramsey were separately interviewed for three days on June 23, 24, and 25, 1998 -- and Burke Ramsey had been interviewed for three days one week earlier. Burke's interview is not available, but here's excerpts from some of Patsy's responses to questions asked by Tom Haney about Burke:

    TH: "What have you told Burke about the murder?"

    PR: "To date?"

    TH: "To date."

    PR: "Well, just that we are going to try to find out who did this to JonBenet. I haven't told him anything about how she was murdered or the details like that."

    TH: "What details would he know or had you talked with him about?"

    PR: "To be quite honest, we really haven't talked to him much about it. It's too hard, you know, it's hard to talk about."

    TH: "Has he volunteered information?"

    PR: "No."

    TH: "Has he had questions?"

    PR: "No."

    TH: "Never 'what's going to happen, who did it'?"

    PR: "No."

    TH: "Did he ever mention getting up at any time during the night?"

    PR: "No."

    TH: "So he slept through until -- I believe it was John that ultimately got him up to take to the Fernies?"

    PR: "Yes, to my knowledge."

    [At that point the Ramseys had not been informed they had Burke's voice on the enhanced 911 tape. The question was formed to lock in Patsy's lie about Burke being in bed asleep during the 911 call.]


    TOM HANEY: "And have you [John and Patsy] talked about it a lot, have you discussed all of these various theories?"

    PATSY RAMSEY: "Over and over and over."

    TOM HANEY: "You say he didn't do it and he says you didn't do it, and didn't have any part in any coverup, anything like that. Any staging. That only leaves one other person alive in the house at the time, that's Burke."

    PATSY RAMSEY: "And the murderer."

    TOM HANEY: "5:52 A.M.?"

    PATSY RAMSEY: Okay. So?"

    TOM HANEY: "So you said it wasn't you and it wasn't John. Could it have been Burke?"

    PATSY RAMSEY: "No. It wouldn't have been Burke."

    TOM HANEY: "Why couldn't it?"

    PATSY RAMSEY: "How do you believe you saw (inaudible) a ten year old, nine year old boy (inaudible). Plus the fact that he loved his sister."

    TOM HANEY: "It's not unheard of for a nine or ten year old child?"

    PATSY RAMSEY: "My child is unheard of."

    TOM HANEY: "And why is that? What would make him different from some other nine or ten year old?"

    PATSY RAMSEY: "Because he was not raised in a family of violence. We are a very loving family."

    TOM HANEY: "Could it have been an accident?"

    PATSY RAMSEY: "I -- don't know."

    TOM HANEY: "Well, you and I don't know because we weren't there?"

    PATSY RAMSEY: "Right."

    TOM HANEY: "So do you think it could have been, he could have pushed her down the stairs -- "

    PATSY RAMSEY: "Burke Ramsey did not do this, okay. He did not do this. Get off it."

    TOM HANEY: "How do you know that, though? I mean, have you talked to him about it?"

    PATSY RAMSEY: "Yes."
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
  19. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Kolar discusses Patsy's motivations quite a bit in regards to possible involvement of Burke in this crime.

    One thing that Kolar pondered, which basically is analyzing the Ramsey's own behavior post crime, was why the Ramseys rushed Burke out of the home that morning without allowing LE to ask him any questions.

    Kolar goes over how many ways the Ramseys refused to allow Burke to be freely questioned by LE repeatedly.

    When BPD Officer Patterson actually questioned Burke at the White's house shortly after JB's body was found, the Ramseys later found out and complained like Patterson was abusing their son.

    It's called investigating the murder of your daughter, and why would you find that to be a problem?

    Never mind; we know the answer to that.

    Kolar mentions the woman at the White's claiming to be Burke's grandmother, but the Ramseys misrepresented that, as well--shocker. In fact, the woman did say she was Burke's grandmother, and she's not identified by Kolar, but she only "SAT IN" on Patterson's questioning of Burke. Kolar NEVER says she "gave him permission" to question Burke.

    So it appears to me this is yet ANOTHER Ramsey attempt to discredit the BPD by using the Ramsey DISINFORMATION machine: the BPD did not NEED permission to question Burke in the murder of JonBenet...he wasn't a suspect, just a WITNESS. And the woman probably was a relative of the White's and trying to protect Burke as an adult representing his interests, I am guessing.

    Most parents who had their child MURDERED by an INTRUDER in their basement might actually WANT to question the other family member in the home that night.

    Kolar points out many instances of the Ramseys stating they never even questioned Burke themselves. Kolar believes this is odd...and what normal person would not?

    Your observations about Burke asking no questions about his sister's well being or who might have done this, not to mention showing no signs of fear and stating to the DSS child psychologist he was not afraid, are also brought up in the book.

    The chapter on SBP is so revealing: Kolar actually makes the case that children of Burke's age not only are capable of doing this crime, but have many times. Kolar cites research, crime statistics, behavioral studies, etc.

    It really brings home the same point that has protected the Ramseys for so long: most people immediately discounted Burke because of the brutality and his age.

    In point of fact, research into this type of youthful offender crime was still in the early stages of documentation and research in 1996. So just like the people who still can't believe those good Christians, John and Patsy Ramsey, could do such a thing, many were unable to imagine Burke could, as well.

    Kolar makes the case that this presumption is a mistake and Burke is the one person left to look at closely in connection with the violence and assaults on JonBenet, absent an intruder.

    John's and Patsy's own behaviors seem to point directly AT Burke, as well.
  20. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    This photo was taken in late Spring of 1996, and shows Burke and JonBenet standing up (as opposed to the "sitting" Christmas card photograph of that year), and a person can get a better idea of how much taller Burke was than JonBenet. Of course, they both would have grown some in the six plus months from the time of this photo until December 25, 1996, but their height ratio should still have been about the same.

    In the photo, Burke is a full head taller than JonBenet. The top of her head (minus the hat) comes to his shoulders.

    (Photo taken by Judith Phillips)

    Attached Files:

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice