Steve Thomas Deposition - Wolf Case - September 21, 2001

Discussion in 'Transcripts: Ramsey murder case' started by koldkase, Sep 27, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    September 21, 2001 9:07 a.m.

    Page 1


    4 Civil Action File
    5 No. 00-CIV-1187(JEC)
    7 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    September 21, 2001
    11 9:07 a.m.

    12 1100 Fourteenth Street
    Denver, Colorado

    14 Kelly A. Mackereth, CSR, RPR, CRR, and Notary Public


    2 For the Plaintiff:
    4 (By telephone)
    5 Law Office of Darnay Hoffman
    6 210 West 7th Street, Suite 209
    7 New York, NY 10023
    8 (212) 712-2766
    9 .
    10 For the Defendants:
    12 Powell, Goldstein, Frazer & Murphy, L.L.P.
    13 191 Peachtree Street, N.E.
    14 Sixteenth Floor
    15 Atlanta, GA 30303
    16 (404) 572-6600
    17 L. LIN WOOD, ESQ.
    18 The Equitable Building
    19 100 Peachtree Street
    20 Suite 2140
    21 Atlanta, GA 30303
    22 (404) 522-1713
    23 -and-
    24 .
    25 .


    1 For the Deponent:
    3 O'Melveny & Myers
    4 1999 Avenue of the Stars
    5 Los Angeles, CA 90067-6035
    6 (310) 553-6700
    8 Dow, Lohnes & Albertson
    9 One Ravinia Drive
    10 Suite 1600
    11 Atlanta GA 30346-2108
    12 (770) 901-8800
    13 .
    14 Also present:
    15 JAY R. REN, CLVS
    16 TODD TOMPKINS, Videographer Intern
    17 O.M. "Ollie" Gray
    18 .
    19 .
    20 .
    21 .
    22 .
    23 .
    24 .
    25 .


    1 Deposition of Steven Thomas
    2 September 21, 2001
    3 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    4 9:07. We're on the record. This is the
    5 deposition of Steve Thomas for the case of
    6 Robert Christian Wolf versus John Bennett
    7 Ramsey and Patricia Paugh Ramsey, Case Number
    8 00-CIV-1187 in the U. S. District Court,
    9 Atlanta Division, State of Georgia. Today is
    10 September 21st, 2001.
    11 We are located at 1100 Fourteenth
    12 Street, Denver, Colorado. The court reporter
    13 is Kelly Mackereth of Boverie, Jackson, Busby
    14 and Speera. The videographer is Jay R. Ren,
    15 certified legal video specialist for Ren Video
    16 Services.
    17 The attorneys will identify
    18 themselves beginning with the attorney on the
    19 left and the deponent's right.
    20 MR. WOOD: My name is Lin Wood.
    21 I represent John and Patsy Ramsey.
    22 MR. RAWLS: I'm Jim Rawls. I'm
    23 co-counsel with Lin Wood representing John and
    24 Patsy Ramsey.
    25 MR. GRAY: My name is Ollie Gray.


    1 I'm an investigator in this case.
    2 MR. DIAMOND: I am Chuck Diamond
    3 of O'Melveny & Myers representing the witness,
    4 Steve Thomas.
    5 MR. SMITH: I'm Sean Smith, and I
    6 also represent Steve Thomas.
    7 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Also, on the
    8 phone.
    9 MR. WOOD: Your turn, Darnay.
    10 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm Darnay Hoffman,
    11 and I represent the Plaintiff, Robert
    12 Christian Wolf.
    13 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The reporter
    14 will now swear in the witness.
    15 MR. WOOD: You ready for us?
    16 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Yes, we're
    17 ready to swear in the witness.
    18 MR. WOOD: Would you swear the
    19 witness, please.
    20 STEVEN THOMAS, having been first
    21 duly sworn, was examined and testified as
    22 follows:
    24 BY-MR.WOOD:
    25 Q. This will be the deposition of


    1 Steve Thomas. The deposition is taken
    2 pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil
    3 Procedure and the Federal Rules of Evidence.
    4 The deposition is taken pursuant
    5 to subpoena duly served and notice duly filed
    6 and also pursuant to the order and rulings of
    7 Judge Jewell Carnes in denying Mr. Thomas'
    8 motion to quash the subpoena. And I would
    9 also note for the record that within the
    10 ruling of Judge Carnes' counsel for
    11 Mr. Thomas and for the parties have agreed as
    12 to the date and the location of the
    13 deposition.
    14 I understand that Mr. Thomas will
    15 read and sign the deposition. We would agree
    16 that can be undertaken before an authorized
    17 notary public. Everybody set?
    18 MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.
    19 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) All right.
    20 Mr. Thomas, you've been sworn. Let me ask
    21 you for the record, please, to state your
    22 full name.
    23 A. My full name is William Steven
    24 Walton Thomas.
    25 Q. You go by Steve?


    1 A. I do.
    2 Q. Do you have any preference? I'll
    3 probably call you Mr. Thomas but if you would
    4 rather I call you Steve or something you just
    5 let me know?
    6 A. Steve, Mr. Thomas.
    7 Q. All right. I may bounce back and
    8 forth. What is your --
    9 MR. DIAMOND: Let's stay on a
    10 last-name basis. It is a sworn testimony.
    11 MR. WOOD: Yeah.
    12 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Well, let me ask
    13 you this if you would, Mr. Thomas, would you
    14 give me your present residence address?
    15 A.
    17 MR. DIAMOND:
    19 A.
    21 MR. DIAMOND: That's what I think
    22 he wanted.
    23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Do you have any
    24 present plans to move from that residence?
    25 A. Ultimately I will leave Colorado


    1 but, no, for the moment, that's where I'm
    2 residing.
    3 Q. Do you have any plans even though
    4 they may be tentative in terms of when you
    5 would hope to leave Colorado?
    6 A. Certainly not before this matter
    7 is resolved.
    8 Q. This matter being the Chris Wolf
    9 case or this matter being the lawsuit filed
    10 by John and Patsy Ramsey against you?
    11 A. Both.
    12 Q. Okay. So we would be safe to say
    13 you're here in Colorado at least through the
    14 duration of those two matters; is that true?
    15 A. Yes.
    16 Q.
    17 A.
    18 Q.
    19 A.
    20 Q.
    21 A.
    23 Q.
    24 A.
    25 Q.


    2 A.
    3 Q.
    4 A.
    5 Q.
    6 A.
    7 Q.
    8 MR. DIAMOND:
    10 MR. WOOD:
    12 MR. DIAMOND:
    16 MR. WOOD:
    18 take it. If you have an instruction to the
    19 witness to make, make it and we'll move onto
    20 the next question.
    21 MR. DIAMOND: We'll designate that
    22 confidential. We can talk about that at the
    23 conclusion of the deposition.
    24 MR. WOOD: Sure. We're going to
    25 have at some point a protective order to


    1 present you with that you all will have the
    2 opportunity to sign onto.
    3 MR. DIAMOND: Yeah, I've seen
    4 that.
    5 MR. WOOD: Yeah, and that would
    6 protect that information if he wants to give
    7 it to me. If you all want to then designate
    8 it within the time period allowed by law so
    9 subject to that designation I assume you will
    10 let him answer.
    11 MR. DIAMOND: I will.
    12 Q. (BY MR. WOOD)
    15 A.
    16 Q.
    17 A.
    18 Q.
    19 A.
    20 Q.
    21 A.
    22 Q.
    23 A.
    24 Q.
    25 A.


    1 Q.
    4 A.
    5 Q.
    7 A.
    8 Q.
    10 A.
    11 Q.
    12 A.
    15 MR. DIAMOND: Do you know? If
    16 you don't know, you don't know.
    17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) That's something
    18 you could get copies of down the road if we
    19 need it I'm sure, true?
    20 A. I'm sure we have those somewhere.
    21 Q. Okay. Do you have any other --
    22 do you engage in any other present activities
    23 for compensation in terms of trying to earn
    24 money, other than your business as a
    25 carpenter?


    1 A. Occasionally I'm asked to speak.
    2 Q. Speak in what capacity?
    3 A. Occasionally I'm asked to speak to
    4 different groups, law enforcement primarily.
    5 Q. Do you solicit invitations to
    6 speak from organizations?
    7 A. Recently we have in conjunction
    8 with some defense fund raising.
    9 Q. When you say "we have" who is we?
    10 A. People who are helping me with
    11 that legal defense fund raising.
    12 Q. Who is "we" then, please, by name?
    13 A. Sherill Whisenand.
    14 Q. Anyone else?
    15 A. No.
    16 Q. And what is Sherill Wisinhunt?
    17 MR. DIAMOND: Whisenand.
    18 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Whisenand. When
    19 did you first meet her?
    20 A. I probably first spoke with her in
    21 1999.
    22 Q. And who is she employed with?
    23 A. Currently I believe she's
    24 self-employed.
    25 Q. What is the name of her company,


    1 do you know?
    2 A. I also think she -- I do think
    3 she also has other employment but the name of
    4 her company is Wise Connections.
    5 Q. Is she a public relations person?
    6 A. I don't know how she bills
    7 herself.
    8 Q. What do you see her as?
    9 A. A friend.
    10 Q. You don't know what her business
    11 is?
    12 A. I know she works with Dr. Laura
    13 as a producer with that radio show.
    14 Q. You don't know what type of
    15 business she does in connection with her work
    16 Wise Connections?
    17 A. Yes, she helps me with speaking.
    18 Q. Did she form that company Wise
    19 Connections just to help you?
    20 A. I don't know.
    21 Q. Do you know whether it existed
    22 before she met you?
    23 A. I don't know.
    24 Q. How did you come to meet her?
    25 A. Through a mutual friend.


    1 Q. Who is that?
    2 A. Anthony Robbins.
    3 Q. Tony Robbins, the fellow we see on
    4 TV?
    5 A. Yes.
    6 Q. And when did you -- I'm sorry.
    7 You first spoke with her, is that when you
    8 met her in 1999?
    9 A. No, I did not meet her in person
    10 until some point after that. I spoke with
    11 her for a period of time on the telephone.
    12 Q. And I assume that that was in
    13 connection with, what, raising funds did you
    14 tell me?
    15 A. At what point are you talking
    16 about --
    17 Q. When you met --
    18 A. -- when I first met her?
    19 Q. Yeah.
    20 A. No, I wasn't raising funds in
    21 1999. When I first met her was simply we
    22 struck up a friendship when I was calling
    23 Tony Robbins' office.
    24 Q. When did you get into, in effect,
    25 a business relationship with her, when did


    1 that start?
    2 A. I think at some point I tired of
    3 taking media calls and the calls for speaking
    4 and she volunteered to take those for me.
    5 Q. When did that happen?
    6 A. Probably late '99, 2000, sometime
    7 during the calendar year of 2000.
    8 Q. Or late the calendar year of 1999?
    9 A. Possibly. I don't recall.
    10 Q. Well, your answer was when I said
    11 when did that happen you said probably late
    12 '99, 2000, sometime during the calendar year
    13 2000; is that correct?
    14 A. I'm trying to give you a sense
    15 for when that occurred.
    16 MR. DIAMOND: What's your best
    17 recollection? I'm sorry, I lost the thread.
    18 The time period --
    19 MR. WOOD: I'm trying to find out
    20 -- yeah, hold on one second, I'll tell you
    21 exactly. I asked him the date of when he
    22 entered into, in effect, a business
    23 relationship with her, the date.
    24 A. I think it would have been the
    25 calendar year sometime during 2000 because


    1 that's when the calls and the requests came.
    2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Let me see if this
    3 will help you. Was it prior to the
    4 publication of your book?
    5 A. I don't recall, but as I mentioned
    6 I think when I had her take over these calls
    7 and requests was after the flurry, after the
    8 book was released.
    9 Q. Does that lead you to believe that
    10 in probability you did not engage in a
    11 business relationship with Sherill Whisenand
    12 until after the April 2000 publication of
    13 your book "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder
    14 Investigation"?
    15 A. Well, there's not a bright line in
    16 my head because I still consider her a friend
    17 and when that transitioned at some point to
    18 some business work the friendship certainly
    19 didn't cease and that doesn't stand out in my
    20 head.
    21 Q. Did you have any flurry of phone
    22 calls from the media prior to the publication
    23 of your book?
    24 A. Yes.
    25 Q. Did you handle all of those or do


    1 you recall Sherill Whisenand handling some of
    2 them?
    3 A. She may have handled some of
    4 those.
    5 Q. So that tells me it may be that
    6 you were involved in a business relationship
    7 with her prior to the publication of your
    8 book possibly?
    9 A. Well, when you say business
    10 relationship --
    11 Q. When she's handling media calls
    12 for you?
    13 A. The fact that she took calls for
    14 me she certainly did that as a friend as
    15 well because she volunteered to do that.
    16 (Exhibit-1 was marked.)
    17 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, I expect
    18 you're going to tie this into a line of
    19 questioning that has to do with the work that
    20 he did as a police investigator in connection
    21 with the Ramsey case?
    22 MR. WOOD: Stay tuned. I'm going
    23 to let you look at it and I'm going to ask
    24 him questions about it.
    25 MR. DIAMOND: Well, I'm going to


    1 limit you to that because that's what this
    2 deposition is about.
    3 MR. WOOD: If you have an
    4 instruction under the Federal Rules of Civil
    5 Procedure to make, Mr. Diamond, feel free to
    6 make it. I've asked you to take a look at
    7 this exhibit. I'm going to ask Mr. Thomas
    8 to take a look at it. It's been marked for
    9 purposes of identification as Exhibit 1.
    10 MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.
    11 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You're familiar
    12 with the website set up with respect to your
    13 lecture for hire, true?
    14 A. Yes.
    15 Q. And this is, I take it you would
    16 agree, a true and correct copy of that
    17 website page?
    18 A. That's not from my website, that's
    19 from another website, but I'm familiar with
    20 that page, yes.
    21 Q. Okay. And this obviously
    22 advertises your willingness to lecture on the
    23 JonBenet Ramsey case for compensation, true?
    24 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, the only
    25 reason I can see you asking these questions


    1 is concerning the jurisdictional debate that
    2 we currently have pending --
    3 MR. WOOD: I'm asking what he
    4 does for a living.
    5 MR. DIAMOND: You can ask him
    6 what he does for a living. He's told you
    7 what he does for a living. He's a carpenter
    8 and he does public speaking --
    9 MR. WOOD: I'm asking him about
    10 that solicitation.
    11 MR. DIAMOND: I'm not going to
    12 let you inquire about that.
    13 MR. WOOD: If you have,
    14 Mr. Diamond, if you have a -- we're not here
    15 to argue with each other and I don't --
    16 MR. DIAMOND: Well --
    17 THE REPORTER: One at a time.
    18 MR. WOOD: Let me finish, then
    19 you'll have time.
    20 MR. DIAMOND: Certainly.
    21 MR. WOOD: I simply asked him
    22 about this for purposes of establishing what
    23 he does for a living in whole or in part.
    24 If you have an instruction to make under the
    25 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, just make


    1 it. I don't need to debate it.
    2 MR. DIAMOND: I will.
    3 MR. WOOD: If you instruct him
    4 not to answer the question, state the
    5 privilege, as I understand that's what you're
    6 limited to. State the privilege and make
    7 your instruction and we can address it at a
    8 later time.
    9 MR. DIAMOND: I'm fully prepared
    10 to do that.
    11 MR. WOOD: All right.
    12 MR. DIAMOND: And I intend to do
    13 that. I want to give you an opportunity to
    14 tell me how this relates to the subject
    15 matter of the deposition --
    16 MR. WOOD: I did.
    17 MR. DIAMOND: -- within the
    18 framework that Judge Carnes said you were
    19 allowed to inquire. And, you know, if you're
    20 prepared to tender a good cause showing, I'm
    21 happy to let him answer. Obviously, on its
    22 face this is going nowhere but to the
    23 jurisdictional dispute that my client and your
    24 client are currently engaged in unless there
    25 is some other reason. He's already told you


    1 what he does for a living.
    2 I'll have the pending question
    3 read, and then I'll decide whether to
    4 instruct him or not.
    5 MR. WOOD: I don't think there is
    6 a pending question. I think he told me that
    7 it was a -- he was familiar with this
    8 website and has his own website.
    9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) What is your
    10 website address?
    11 A. It's not necessarily my website.
    12 It's a website that was created by a
    13 supporter of mine, and the address is
    15 MR. DIAMOND: He wanted to know
    16 your website. Do you have a website?
    17 THE DEPONENT: I thought that was
    18 the one he was talking about.
    19 MR. DIAMOND: No. Do you have a
    20 website?
    21 THE DEPONENT: No.
    22 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) So did you
    23 misspeak a minute ago when you said something
    24 about your website because you said that's
    25 not from my website, that's from another


    1 website but I'm familiar with that page. Did
    2 you misspeak when you said the words "my
    3 website"?
    4 A. There is a website owned by a
    5 third party who is a supporter of mine.
    6 Q. Who is that?
    7 A. A woman I know as B.J.
    8 Q. You don't know her full name?
    9 A. Barbara, I don't know her last
    10 name.
    11 Q. Do you know where she lives?
    12 A. Ohio.
    13 Q. Where in Ohio?
    14 A. I don't know.
    15 Q. So other than the
    16 lecture-for-profit business and the carpentry
    17 business, do you have any other employment at
    18 the present time?
    19 A. No.
    20 Q. Did you authorize Plaintiff's
    21 Exhibit Number 1 to be posted to solicit
    22 speaking engagements?
    23 A. Yes.
    24 Q. Have you ever been deposed before?
    25 A. In a civil proceeding?


    1 Q. Let's start there, in a civil
    2 proceeding?
    3 A. No. No.
    4 Q. That makes me believe that you
    5 have been deposed in a criminal proceeding;
    6 is that true?
    7 A. Well, certainly I'm not familiar
    8 with the civil aspect of this as much as I
    9 am the criminal half of things. I have
    10 given testimony certainly in criminal cases,
    11 but I have never been deposed in a setting
    12 like this.
    13 Q. The testimony you have given in
    14 criminal cases has been, I assume, either in
    15 hearings or trials in a courtroom?
    16 A. In front of grand jurors, yeah.
    17 Q. Right. You've never sat in a
    18 deposition where no judge is present, no
    19 grand jury is present, just the lawyers where
    20 we take what is called a deposition; is that
    21 your testimony?
    22 A. I was present in a deposition
    23 many, many years ago in the 1980s in a
    24 police case but I don't recall that I ever
    25 had to give testimony.


    1 Q. Was that some sort of a civil
    2 lawsuit?
    3 A. Exactly.
    4 Q. Were you a defendant in that
    5 matter?
    6 A. The city and myself and other
    7 officers, yes.
    8 Q. And where was that?
    9 A. The City of Wheat Ridge, Colorado.
    10 Q. Were you sued for a violation of
    11 civil rights?
    12 A. No, I don't think that was the
    13 basis of the suit.
    14 Q. What was the basis?
    15 A. We stopped a car we believed to
    16 be stolen. It turned out not to be and the
    17 people felt wronged by that.
    18 Q. So you were sued as a defendant
    19 along with others and the City of Wheat
    20 Ridge, Colorado?
    21 A. Correct.
    22 Q. Do you know how that case was
    23 resolved?
    24 A. I think it settled.
    25 Q. Moneys paid to the plaintiff?


    1 A. That's my understanding.
    2 Q. On your behalf as well as the
    3 city's behalf?
    4 A. I don't know.
    5 Q. But that was -- was that filed in
    6 the Wheat Ridge or the county of Wheat Ridge?
    7 A. I don't know.
    8 Q. But in Colorado?
    9 A. Yes.
    10 Q. Were you deposed?
    11 A. That's what I just said, no. I
    12 don't -- I don't know that I had to give any
    13 testimony in that.
    14 Q. I thought you said you were
    15 present for deposition; I may have
    16 misunderstood. I don't know if you were
    17 there watching someone in attendance or
    18 whether you were actually deposed and you're
    19 not sure of which; is that right?
    20 A. I recall being in a setting
    21 similar to this where the other parties were
    22 on the other side of the table and there was
    23 some Q and A, but I think it was the other
    24 side.
    25 Q. Other than that lawsuit, have you


    1 ever been sued in any other matters?
    2 Obviously we know about the John and Patsy
    3 Ramsey lawsuit against you. Other than those
    4 two cases, have you ever been sued in a
    5 civil case?
    6 A. I don't recall any other, no,
    7 civil suit in my capacity as a police officer
    8 or as a citizen.
    9 Q.
    11 A.
    12 Q.
    14 A.
    15 Q.
    16 A.
    17 Q.
    19 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, what is
    20 that relevant to?
    21 MR. WOOD: Well, it may very well
    22 be relevant to jury --
    23 MR. DIAMOND: I'm sorry.
    24 MR. WOOD: It may very well be
    25 relevant to jury issues.


    1 MR. DIAMOND: I'm sorry, to jury
    2 issues?
    3 MR. WOOD: Yes, sir. When you
    4 select a jury, I may want to know his former
    5 wife's residence or name or employment in the
    6 jury selection process. Now, let me say this
    7 to you, Mr. Diamond, I'm not going to debate
    8 relevance. My question is simple. If you
    9 have an instruction to make to the witness,
    10 make it. But we can't waste time going back
    11 and forth discussing relevance.
    12 I ask that question of every
    13 witness in a deposition. It's done for jury
    14 purposes. It's a legitimate question. May
    15 we please get an answer and move on?
    16 MR. DIAMOND: You may answer
    17 whether or not she lives in the State of
    18 Georgia.
    19 A.
    21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD)
    24 A.
    25 Q.


    2 A.
    5 Q.
    7 A.
    9 Q.
    13 A.
    14 Q. Tell me if you would, Mr. Thomas,
    15 about what your deposition preparation was in
    16 this case. What did you do to prepare for
    17 the deposition?
    18 A. I met with my attorneys and they
    19 explained to me how --
    20 MR. DIAMOND: You don't need to
    21 get into the context.
    22 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yeah, I don't want
    23 to know what, unless your attorneys want me
    24 to know, I suspect they don't. I don't need
    25 to know what you and your attorneys


    1 discussed. I would like to know the fact of
    2 the meeting, when it took place and how long
    3 it lasted.
    4 A. I met on Wednesday, September
    5 19th, with Mr. Sean Smith for several hours
    6 and then yesterday, September 20th of 2001, I
    7 met again several hours with Mr. Smith and
    8 with Chuck Diamond.
    9 Q. Tell me how many hours, your best
    10 estimate as to how many hours several hours
    11 is on the 19th, let's start there, with
    12 Mr. Smith.
    13 A. A full day. We took a long
    14 lunch, but I think we began our day at 9:30
    15 a.m. and ended around 5 p.m.
    16 Q. And then yesterday, how long?
    17 A. Similar.
    18 Q. 9:30 to 5 with a lunch break?
    19 A. Yeah, we may have gone past 5
    20 o'clock last evening, maybe 6 or 7 p.m.
    21 Q. And was Mr. Diamond here yesterday
    22 during the day?
    23 A. Yes.
    24 Q. At the beginning of your meeting
    25 at 9 a.m. or 9:30 a.m.?


    1 A. I certainly believe so.
    2 Q. I only asked because I was under
    3 the impression he was not available to be
    4 here yesterday but that's all right, that's
    5 not an issue for you to worry about.
    6 Did you review any written
    7 materials in preparation for your deposition?
    8 A. I reviewed my book.
    9 Q. That book being, identified earlier
    10 "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder
    11 Investigation." You have a copy of the hard
    12 back with you I see?
    13 A. It's a hard back I looked at,
    14 yes.
    15 Q. Okay. Did you review any other
    16 written materials?
    17 A. No.
    18 Q. Do you have notes that you
    19 utilized in writing your book?
    20 A. No, let me interrupt you. I did
    21 stuck in -- stuck in this book was a
    22 two-page report from the Chris Wolf matter
    23 that I did review.
    24 Q. Do you have a copy of that?
    25 A. No.


    1 Q. Is that something we could see?
    2 MR. DIAMOND: What's that?
    3 MR. WOOD: The two-page report on
    4 the Chris Wolf matter that he reviewed in
    5 preparation, is that something we could take
    6 a look at?
    7 MR. DIAMOND: We don't have it,
    8 it's not with him today.
    9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Was this something
    10 prepared by your attorneys?
    11 A. No.
    12 Q. Who was it prepared by?
    13 A. This was, I found stuck in a book
    14 this summer a two-page report that I had
    15 written as a police detective on the Jackie
    16 Dilson, Chris Wolf matter.
    17 Q. And you have that where presently
    18 located?
    19 A. That's probably in a folder
    20 sitting at home.
    21 Q. And you will maintain possession
    22 of that at my request in the event we decide
    23 we would like to ask for that formally,
    24 subject to your attorney's agreement that we
    25 would be entitled to it down the road?


    1 A. Certainly.
    2 MR. DIAMOND: Happy to hold on to
    3 it.
    4 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I assume that what
    5 you're telling me, Mr. Thomas, is you've got
    6 two pages of notes that you've made yourself
    7 on Chris Wolf relating to the investigation
    8 of Chris Wolf?
    9 A. No.
    10 Q. Tell me what exactly, maybe I
    11 didn't understand you, what those two pages
    12 are.
    13 A. It's not notes. It's a two-page
    14 typewritten report that I had prepared.
    15 Q. For the Boulder Police Department?
    16 A. Yes.
    17 Q. Do you remember the date of that
    18 report?
    19 A. January 1998.
    20 Q. January of '98?
    21 A. I'm sorry, January of 1997.
    22 Q. Okay. Did you prepare any other
    23 written reports for the Boulder Police
    24 Department about Chris Wolf, other than the
    25 two-page report you've referred to that is


    1 dated January of 1997?
    2 A. Certainly.
    3 Q. Have you had an opportunity to
    4 review them in preparation for your
    5 deposition?
    6 A. No.
    7 Q. Do you -- did you have notes from
    8 which you relied on in whole or in part in
    9 writing your book "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey
    10 Murder Investigation"?
    11 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, I'm going
    12 to instruct him not to answer.
    13 MR. WOOD: On what privilege?
    14 MR. DIAMOND: Not on privilege,
    15 the limitation that was imposed by Judge
    16 Carnes or the condition in which he allowed
    17 this deposition to go forward.
    18 MR. WOOD: Excuse me, I don't
    19 know --
    20 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, you let me
    21 finish and I'll let you finish.
    22 MR. WOOD: I apologize for
    23 interrupting, but let me say this to you --
    24 MR. DIAMOND: Well, then don't
    25 interrupt me. I will finish what I'm saying.


    1 MR. WOOD: Mr. Diamond --
    2 MR. DIAMOND: Maybe --
    3 THE REPORTER: Please, one at a
    4 time.
    5 MR. WOOD: Excuse me. We're
    6 going to take a break off the record. I'm
    7 not going to let you yell at me. Calm down.
    8 We'll come back and we'll start again in five
    9 minutes. We'll go off the record and not
    10 waste deposition time.
    11 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is now
    12 9:34. We're going off the record.
    13 (Recess taken from 9:35 a.m. to
    14 9:45 a.m.)
    15 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    16 9:45. We're back on the record.
    17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I'm going to try
    18 to make sure I can avoid any problems that
    19 Mr. Diamond might have with my question. Let
    20 me go back and withdraw the last question and
    21 restate it. What I would like to know,
    22 Mr. Thomas, is do you have notes pertaining
    23 to your involvement in or the investigation
    24 of the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?
    25 A. The Boulder Police Department has


    1 those notes. I don't know that I have any
    2 notes.
    3 Q. You left the Department by
    4 resignation of August the 6th, right?
    5 A. Yes.
    6 Q. 1998?
    7 A. Yes.
    8 Q. When did you turn over all of
    9 your notes to the Boulder Police Department?
    10 A. Shortly thereafter.
    11 Q. Who did you turn them over to?
    12 A. I returned my briefcases and those
    13 contents, along with all my police equipment,
    14 which was inventoried, to Commander Dave Hayes
    15 and Sergeant Michael Ready.
    16 Q. Did you turn over your case
    17 notebooks?
    18 A. Everything.
    19 Q. How many case notebooks did you
    20 turn over?
    21 A. What do you mean by case
    22 notebooks?
    23 Q. Don't you know what the case
    24 notebook was used in this case, sir, filled
    25 out by all of the detectives on a daily


    1 basis?
    2 MR. DIAMOND: He may ask you for
    3 an explanation, what you're referring to.
    4 You're not going to help him out?
    5 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Do you know, sir,
    6 what the case notebooks were in this case in
    7 terms of the notebooks prepared by the
    8 detectives, I believe on a daily basis?
    9 A. A case notebook that was
    10 prepared --
    11 Q. Did you have --
    12 A. -- on a daily basis?
    13 Q. Yes. Did you have a notebook
    14 that you kept, maintained with respect to
    15 your investigation?
    16 A. I had folders and my working
    17 papers which I maintained with respect to my
    18 parts of the investigation.
    19 MR. DIAMOND: He's asking about a
    20 notebook.
    21 THE DEPONENT: Yeah, I know.
    22 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You didn't have
    23 them in any notebook form?
    24 A. No.
    25 Q. Now, those working papers, all of


    1 that was turned back into the Boulder Police
    2 Department shortly after you resigned in
    3 August of 1998?
    4 A. Yes.
    5 Q. You maintained no notebooks; is
    6 that right?
    7 A. I maintained copies of those.
    8 Q. So you have copies of your
    9 reports?
    10 A. No, I didn't say that. I don't
    11 know that I have those copies anymore.
    12 Q. Well, you said you maintained
    13 copies. Copies of what?
    14 A. I maintained copies of what was in
    15 my working file briefcase which I returned to
    16 the Boulder Police Department.
    17 Q. How many pages of documents are we
    18 talking about?
    19 A. A couple hundred maybe.
    20 Q. Do you have those presently in
    21 your possession, custody or control?
    22 A. No.
    23 Q. What did you do with them?
    24 A. I don't know.
    25 Q. They just mysteriously disappeared?


    1 A. No, I have moved twice in the
    2 interim. We have some things in storage.
    3 We, my wife moved overseas. If I still had
    4 a cardboard box full of those documents or
    5 materials. I'm unaware of their present
    6 location.
    7 Q. When do you last recall looking at
    8 them or reviewing them?
    9 (Discussion off the record between
    10 the deponent and Mr. Diamond.)
    11 A. I last looked at those in --
    12 MR. DIAMOND: He has mentioned the
    13 first full report that he --
    14 MR. WOOD: Yeah, well, let him
    15 answer that.
    16 MR. DIAMOND: Are you excluding
    17 that?
    18 MR. WOOD: No, I'm not excluding
    19 anything. I want to learn everything.
    20 A. Early 2000.
    21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) How early 2000?
    22 A. Probably February or March.
    23 Q. That was the last time you saw
    24 them?
    25 A. Right.


    1 Q. And when did you move?
    2 A. I moved -- I sold my house this
    3 summer, summer of 2001.
    4 Q. And did you pack up your
    5 possessions?
    6 A. Yes.
    7 Q. So you don't have any explanation
    8 to offer as to what happened to your JonBenet
    9 Ramsey working papers since you last claimed
    10 to have seen them sometime in February or
    11 March of 19' -- of 2000?
    12 A. Yeah, after I last looked at them,
    13 this was a cardboard box full of these
    14 documents. And to your question, yeah, I
    15 don't know where they are currently.
    16 Q. You did not destroy them
    17 intentionally, did you?
    18 A. No.
    19 Q. You didn't intentionally lose them,
    20 did you?
    21 A. No.
    22 Q. You didn't think they were
    23 valuable to keep?
    24 A. No, not necessarily.
    25 Q. When did you -- in terms of that,


    1 you did know at some point that the Ramseys
    2 indicated they were going to file a lawsuit
    3 against you if you published a book, didn't
    4 you?
    5 A. Repeat the question, please.
    6 Q. You knew early on when your book
    7 was published that the Ramseys had stated
    8 that they were going to file a lawsuit
    9 against you?
    10 A. I had heard through the media that
    11 they had made those threats.
    12 Q. You didn't think it might be wise
    13 to keep up with your notes to have those in
    14 the event there was a lawsuit?
    15 A. Those are all available in the
    16 Boulder Police Department.
    17 Q. So everything that you had, the
    18 200 pages is available from the Boulder
    19 Police Department; is that right?
    20 A. Yes, as I said, I turned
    21 everything back to the Boulder Police
    22 Department.
    23 Q. In fact, there's quotes in your
    24 book, for example, of interview testimony from
    25 different individuals. For example, there are


    1 quotes alleged to have been made by Burke
    2 Ramsey in June of 1998, by John Ramsey in
    3 June of 1998, by Patsy Ramsey in June of
    4 1998, by John Ramsey in April of 1997, by
    5 Patsy Ramsey in April of 1997 during police
    6 or district attorney interviews.
    7 MR. DIAMOND: You'll represent
    8 that is the case?
    9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yeah, well, that
    10 is the case, isn't it; you know that to be
    11 true, don't you?
    12 A. That the book contained --
    13 Q. Quotes from the interviews of
    14 April 1997 and June of 1998 of John and
    15 Patsy Ramsey and from Burke of June of 1998?
    16 A. Yeah, I would agree with that.
    17 Q. I'm just trying to find out, for
    18 example, your notes, would they -- would the
    19 notes have those quotes in them?
    20 A. What notes are you referring to?
    21 Q. The notes that you can't find now.
    22 How would you have quotes --
    23 MR. DIAMOND: I'm going to object.
    24 MR. WOOD: Let me.
    25 MR. DIAMOND: He didn't say he


    1 couldn't find them. He said he doesn't know
    2 where they are. You haven't asked him
    3 whether he's been looking for them recently,
    4 have you?
    5 MR. WOOD: Well, I mean, I will
    6 ask him that in a minute. Again, Chuck,
    7 we'll move quicker if you limit yourself to
    8 instructions on privilege.
    9 MR. DIAMOND: Mischaracterizes his
    10 testimony in your --
    11 MR. WOOD: That's not an objection
    12 on privilege, nonetheless.
    13 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, I'm
    14 trying to figure out whether you had notes
    15 that would have had these precise quotes in
    16 them and that's how you were able to use
    17 them to come up with the quotes in your
    18 book. Or did you come up with those quotes
    19 from their various interviews from your mind's
    20 eye, your own recollection only? Do you
    21 follow me?
    22 A. Yes.
    23 Q. Which was the case?
    24 A. They were either in notes which I
    25 had or in documents I subsequently received.


    1 Q. And what documents did you
    2 subsequently receive about the investigation?
    3 A. After I left the police
    4 department, over a period of time I received
    5 through the mail various documents concerning
    6 the investigation.
    7 Q. From whom?
    8 A. Anonymously through the mail.
    9 Q. Postmarked from where?
    10 A. Boulder or Denver.
    11 Q. And were these documents police
    12 files or reports on the JonBenet Ramsey
    13 investigation?
    14 A. Yes.
    15 Q. Were they documents from the
    16 district attorney's office on the JonBenet
    17 Ramsey investigation?
    18 A. What do you mean from the district
    19 attorney's office?
    20 Q. Well, for example, a report
    21 prepared by Michael Kane, as opposed to a
    22 report prepared by Mark Beckner. One works
    23 for the Boulder PD and one works for the
    24 district attorney or did. You know the
    25 difference.


    1 A. No, these were Boulder Police
    2 Department documents.
    3 Q. And how many pages of documents
    4 did you receive subsequent to the time that
    5 you left the Boulder Police Department that
    6 concerned the JonBenet Ramsey murder
    7 investigation?
    8 A. Several hundred.
    9 Q. Where are those documents?
    10 A. Unknown. They would be in the
    11 same box if I still have it.
    12 Q. So how many -- let me see if I've
    13 got all the sources of written materials that
    14 you had after you left the Boulder Police
    15 Department on August the 6th, 1998. You had
    16 some couple hundred pages of your work papers
    17 that you had copied, correct?
    18 A. Correct.
    19 Q. You didn't make copies of police
    20 reports?
    21 A. In what context are you talking
    22 about?
    23 Q. In this 200 some odd pages of
    24 your working papers, were there also copies
    25 of police files, police reports on the


    1 JonBenet Ramsey investigation?
    2 A. Yes, these were my working papers,
    3 yes.
    4 Q. Well, for example, would it only
    5 be reports prepared by you or did you have
    6 copies of reports prepared by other officers?
    7 A. As I was the affiant on the
    8 master affidavit in this case I certainly was
    9 in possession of reports from others to
    10 include in any search or arrest warrant in
    11 this case.
    12 Q. So the answer is yes?
    13 A. To what question?
    14 Q. The one I asked you. Did you
    15 have copies of other officers' reports on the
    16 JonBenet Ramsey case in your working papers?
    17 A. Yes.
    18 Q. You make reference to being the
    19 affiant on the master affidavit. Did your
    20 working papers then include copies of all of
    21 the documents that you had and had in any
    22 way relied on in preparing the master
    23 affidavit in the JonBenet Ramsey case?
    24 A. If I understand you correctly, no.
    25 Q. Were you authorized to keep those


    1 copies by the Boulder Police Department?
    2 A. When I resigned abruptly, I
    3 returned all those papers to the Boulder
    4 Police Department and there was no further
    5 communication between us.
    6 Q. But did you tell them you had
    7 kept copies of the papers?
    8 A. No.
    9 Q. Am I correct that everything you
    10 had in your physical possession in terms of
    11 case files, case reports, notes, at the time
    12 that you resigned, whatever you turned over
    13 to the Boulder Police Department at the time
    14 of your resignation, you made copies of and
    15 kept yourself; is that right?
    16 A. I believe so.
    17 Q. And that was only a couple hundred
    18 pages?
    19 A. I believe so, yes.
    20 Q. And did you keep, for example, a
    21 transcript of the April 30, 1997 interview
    22 that you conducted with Patsy Ramsey?
    23 A. I don't know.
    24 Q. So subsequent to leaving, from
    25 what period of time until what period of time


    1 were you receiving anonymous police file
    2 information on the JonBenet Ramsey case that
    3 you say totaled several hundred pages? When
    4 did it start and when did you last get
    5 something?
    6 A. Initially after I had made my
    7 intentions known that I was going to tell my
    8 story through a book. And that was probably
    9 early, maybe January of 1999 and throughout
    10 that calendar year of 1999.
    11 Q. Any materials in the year 2000?
    12 A. Not that I recall.
    13 Q. Did you make any efforts to
    14 solicit information from any member of the
    15 Boulder Police Department about the
    16 investigation after you left?
    17 MR. DIAMOND: May I ask a
    18 clarifying question? Solicit written
    19 materials or just talking to somebody?
    20 MR. WOOD: Information, case
    21 information about the case.
    22 A. Can you repeat the question
    23 please?
    24 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Sure, did you make
    25 any efforts to solicit information about the


    1 JonBenet murder investigation from any member
    2 of the Boulder Police Department after you
    3 left the department in August of 1998?
    4 A. No.
    5 Q. Do you have any idea who sent you
    6 any of these alleged anonymous documents?
    7 A. These are smart people. No.
    8 Q. How do you know they were accurate
    9 if you don't know who sent them to you?
    10 A. Because I had previously seen all
    11 of them.
    12 Q. So this was information that was
    13 contained in the case file that you didn't
    14 copy when you left the force, but it predated
    15 your leaving the force; is that true?
    16 A. Yes.
    17 Q. Did you ever receive any
    18 information about grand jury testimony or
    19 evidence in the case?
    20 A. Never.
    21 Q. Did you ever receive any
    22 information about the investigation in terms
    23 of efforts and information subsequent to the
    24 investigation August 1998? Let me withdraw
    25 that and make it a little bit cleaner.


    1 I want to know, you tell me the
    2 information you got predated your resignation
    3 date. Did you ever get any new information,
    4 that is to say information that was generated
    5 about the case after August of 1998?
    6 A. Without reviewing this box, I
    7 would have to say as we sit here now that it
    8 was all pre-August '98. I don't recall
    9 sitting here that any of it was post-August
    10 '98.
    11 Q. So that the documents that you
    12 have and the information that you had about
    13 the case, your best recollection is that
    14 would have been limited to information
    15 generated prior to August of 1998, true?
    16 A. Yes.
    17 MR. DIAMOND: Counsel, I see no
    18 relevance to this line other than to find out
    19 what he knew at the time he wrote the book.
    20 I instruct him not to answer. If you want
    21 to take this up with the judge, I am happy
    22 to do so. If you want to make a record as
    23 to why this is relevant to the Wolf case,
    24 I'm happy to listen to you. Otherwise, he's
    25 instructed not to answer. Move on.



  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member


    1 MR. WOOD: Is there a privilege
    2 being asserted?
    3 MR. DIAMOND: You heard me, move
    4 on.
    5 MR. WOOD: Sir, if you will be
    6 polite, we will be polite, also.
    7 MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead. I am
    8 happy to be polite.
    9 MR. WOOD: Yes, sir, please do.
    10 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) My question is,
    11 I'm trying to find out about your knowledge
    12 concerning the JonBenet Ramsey investigation.
    13 And it seems from what I am hearing that
    14 your knowledge is limited to information about
    15 the case from the date of the murder in 1996
    16 through August of 1998. Is that right?
    17 MR. DIAMOND: From police sources
    18 is what you have asked him about?
    19 MR. WOOD: My question is on the
    20 table, now, sir. We can call Judge Carnes
    21 and correct the problem that we're
    22 experiencing with you if we need to. I hope
    23 we don't need to.
    24 MR. DIAMOND: We may well have
    25 to.


    1 MR. WOOD: We certainly may have
    2 to if you keep interrupting inappropriately
    3 under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure,
    4 procedure for depositions.
    5 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Could you answer
    6 my question, please, Mr. Thomas?
    7 A. Could you repeat it for me,
    8 please?
    9 Q. Sure. I'm going to read it right
    10 back to you. I'm trying to find out about
    11 your knowledge concerning the JonBenet Ramsey
    12 investigation. And it seems from what I'm
    13 hearing that your knowledge is limited to
    14 information about the case from the date of
    15 the murder in 1996 through August of 1998; is
    16 that right?
    17 A. No, after August of 1998, I
    18 certainly followed media accounts and what was
    19 released publicly and followed the case with
    20 some interest.
    21 Q. Fair enough. Let me add that in.
    22 Can I then say in terms of drawing a circle
    23 around your knowledge of the JonBenet Ramsey
    24 murder investigation, that your knowledge
    25 consists of knowledge about the police


    1 information and to some extent district
    2 attorney information from the date of the
    3 murder until the time you left in August of
    4 1998 and subsequent to 1998 has been
    5 supplemented by what you have learned either
    6 through media accounts or through official
    7 statements from the Boulder Police Department
    8 or the district attorney's office; is that
    9 right?
    10 A. Very confusing question. Can you
    11 break that up for me? I don't understand
    12 what you --
    13 Q. I just want to find out what
    14 you've got. You've got your personal
    15 knowledge. You've got the police file
    16 information that you described for me, the
    17 copies of the documents you copied, the
    18 documents that have been sent to you
    19 subsequent. And that all dealt, you believe,
    20 pre-August 1998, right?
    21 A. I'm not following you, Mr. Wood.
    22 Q. Well, stick with me. I'll try
    23 and make it simple for you.
    24 A. Please.
    25 Q. More simple. You've told me about


    1 the documents. I've covered all the
    2 documents, haven't I? You've got the
    3 documents you copied and you've got the
    4 documents that were anonymously sent to you,
    5 right?
    6 A. Yes, that's correct.
    7 Q. Do you have any other documents
    8 about this investigation, other than those
    9 documents? Do you?
    10 A. Oh, I'm sorry. If I understand
    11 the question correctly, no, as I said, not
    12 that I recall because post-August '98 began
    13 the grand jury. And certainly I don't have
    14 any information from the grand jury room.
    15 Q. So we've got your personal
    16 knowledge about your involvement in the case,
    17 right?
    18 A. Yes.
    19 Q. We've got your knowledge from the
    20 written documents that you've just described
    21 for me?
    22 A. Yes.
    23 Q. And then subsequent to August of
    24 1998, your knowledge about the case and its
    25 status would be limited to what you have


    1 either seen or heard in the media or what
    2 may have been officially stated by law
    3 enforcement authorities, right?
    4 A. As far as I recall, I don't
    5 recall anything, as I have said, post August
    6 of 1998 coming my way, but I'm not limiting
    7 myself to that, if that answers your
    8 question.
    9 Q. As we sit here today, can you
    10 think of anything other than that? Is that
    11 your best recollection as you sit here today,
    12 sir?
    13 A. Yes, as I sit here right now, if
    14 I understand this correctly, that's my answer.
    15 Q. And I'm sure that you came to
    16 this deposition in an effort to prepare for
    17 it and to refresh yourself about the
    18 investigation, you knew you were going to be
    19 asked about it, didn't you?
    20 A. The question being I know I was
    21 going to be asked about the investigation?
    22 Q. Sure.
    23 A. Yes.
    24 Q. JonBenet Ramsey, that was the
    25 first murder investigation that you were


    1 involved in; is that right?
    2 A. As a detective, yes.
    3 Q. You were involved in a murder
    4 investigation in some other capacity?
    5 A. I had been on homicide scenes as
    6 a uniformed officer.
    7 Q. But as a detective actively
    8 investigating the murder, was JonBenet Ramsey
    9 the first murder investigation in that
    10 capacity for you?
    11 A. Yes.
    12 Q. Can we also say that it was the
    13 only one?
    14 A. No.
    15 Q. So you were involved as a
    16 detective in other homicide investigations?
    17 A. Yes.
    18 Q. Tell me about those. How many?
    19 A. One other.
    20 Q. When was that?
    21 A. In 1997, I believe.
    22 Q. Is that the one where the police
    23 officer was present when someone shot someone
    24 else in a domestic dispute?
    25 A. Yes.


    1 Q. And then the person came down and
    2 admitted that he had shot or she had shot
    3 their spouse?
    4 A. Yes.
    5 Q. And that was kind of the end all
    6 of that case, wasn't it? Pretty open and
    7 shut, wouldn't you agree?
    8 A. When you say end all, yes, that
    9 concluded rather quickly.
    10 Q. Yeah, I mean as I understand that
    11 case, there was a domestic dispute call, the
    12 police officer was there and one of the
    13 spouses shot the other one and killed them,
    14 right?
    15 A. Yes.
    16 Q. And then came down to the police
    17 headquarters, and I believe you may have even
    18 been the person talking to the perpetrator,
    19 and that person admitted to shooting his --
    20 was it his spouse or her spouse?
    21 A. Her spouse.
    22 Q. Her spouse. Anything other than
    23 that one case prior to the JonBenet Ramsey
    24 murder investigation, did you have any other
    25 case where you were involved in a homicide


    1 investigation as a detective?
    2 A. No.
    3 Q. Okay. So it was the only other
    4 one; JonBenet Ramsey was your last one I'm
    5 sure, right?
    6 A. No, the last one was this
    7 Jakob-Chien homicide we're describing.
    8 Q. That was the last one, I thought
    9 that was in -- oh, I'm sorry, that was in
    10 1997 but your involvement ended in '97. The
    11 last one you've been involved in went through
    12 '98 and that was JonBenet Ramsey?
    13 A. Right.
    14 Q. From the time you were assigned to
    15 the JonBenet Ramsey case up until the time
    16 that you left, were you assigned to any other
    17 homicide case?
    18 A. Other than the one we noted, no.
    19 Q. And I take it the JonBenet Ramsey
    20 case, other than the case that you noted,
    21 pretty much was your full-time job; is that
    22 right?
    23 A. Yes.
    24 Q. And have you ever had any
    25 training, formal training, in handwriting


    1 analysis?
    2 A. No.
    3 Q. Have you ever had any formal
    4 training in criminal profiling?
    5 A. No.
    6 Q. Other than the 1997 case where you
    7 obtained the confession from the spouse who
    8 shot her husband while the police officer was
    9 present on the premises, and other than the
    10 Ramsey case, have you ever conducted any
    11 other interrogations of murder suspects or
    12 potential suspects?
    13 A. On reported homicides, no, not
    14 that I'm aware of.
    15 Q. Would you be willing to authorize
    16 us, subject to your counsel's recommendation
    17 or right to object if he asked, would you be
    18 willing to authorize us to obtain a copy of
    19 your Boulder Police Department personnel file?
    20 MR. DIAMOND: You don't have to
    21 answer that. If you want to make a request
    22 to me, I will respond.
    23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) How many internal
    24 affairs investigations have you been the
    25 subject of?


    1 A. I believe just one.
    2 Q. When was that?
    3 A. In the early to mid part of 19 --
    4 of the 1990s.
    5 Q. Was that Wheat Ridge or Boulder?
    6 A. That was with the Boulder Police
    7 Department.
    8 Q. Did that stem out of a shooting?
    9 A. No.
    10 Q. Or did it -- just give me a
    11 general idea of what it involved.
    12 A. An unauthorized vehicular pursuit.
    13 Q. And that's the only one, the only
    14 internal affairs investigation?
    15 A. That's right. The incidents that
    16 you refer to -- there was no further -- to
    17 be an internal affairs complaint there has to
    18 be a complainant and you mentioned the
    19 shooting incident, there was no complaint.
    20 Q. Is there any reason why the
    21 two-page report on Chris Wolf was in your
    22 book, why, for example, that was separated
    23 out from the other box of materials?
    24 A. No, I didn't say in my book. I
    25 said in a book. And this summer when I knew


    1 the Wolf case was pending, I was pleased to
    2 find that folded in half and stuck in a
    3 book.
    4 Q. What book was it stuck in?
    5 A. A book on my desk, on my library
    6 shelf.
    7 Q. Why were you pleased to find it?
    8 A. Because I knew I would be giving
    9 testimony in this case and it might help me
    10 recollect some of what I did four or five
    11 years ago.
    12 Q. You could also refresh yourself
    13 with some of the statements you made in your
    14 book about Mr. Wolf, couldn't you?
    15 A. Yes.
    16 Q. You recall Chris Wolf, don't you?
    17 A. Yes.
    18 Q. Am I correct that the Boulder
    19 Police Department conducted a thorough
    20 investigation of Chris Wolf?
    21 A. I'm aware and was a participant in
    22 the Boulder Police Department investigating
    23 Mr. Wolf, yes.
    24 Q. My question was though, sir, do
    25 you agree that the Boulder Police Department


    1 conducted a thorough investigation of Chris
    2 Wolf?
    3 A. I know what I did with my
    4 involvement with Mr. Wolf, but I don't have
    5 personal knowledge of what the detectives who
    6 subsequently closed him out as a suspect did
    7 to satisfy themselves.
    8 Q. Well, take a look, if you would,
    9 at page 273 of your book.
    10 MR. DIAMOND: For the record, do
    11 we have the hard cover?
    12 MR. WOOD: Yeah, this is a hard
    13 cover.
    14 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) 273 and this is
    15 just in context apparently on an incident
    16 you're describing that occurred on February
    17 the 25th of 1998, with Mayor Bob Greenlee.
    18 Do you know Mayor Greenlee?
    19 MR. DIAMOND: Can you point to
    20 where you are, at the top of the page?
    21 MR. WOOD: Just hang on a second,
    22 pay attention, you'll get there.
    23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) In context do you
    24 recall the February incident with Mayor
    25 Greenlee about Chris Wolf?


    1 A. I don't recall the date being a
    2 specific date in February but I certainly
    3 recall meeting with Mr. Greenlee, yes, about
    4 Chris Wolf.
    5 Q. Look at the top of page 273. If
    6 you would follow with me, quote, We need to
    7 check this out, the mayor snorted. We need
    8 a thorough investigation into this. End
    9 quote. "I guess he wanted me to cower in
    10 his presence. Greenlee trapped himself, not
    11 me." Quote, We are thoroughly investigating
    12 him, end quote, "I replied. Even as we
    13 spoke, Chris Wolf was in an interview room
    14 voluntarily giving handwriting, hair and DNA
    15 samples and a statement."
    16 Have you followed me?
    17 A. I have followed you.
    18 Q. Have I read that correctly?
    19 A. Yes.
    20 Q. So it was your understanding that
    21 the Boulder Police Department was thoroughly
    22 investigating Chris Wolf, true?
    23 A. Yes, even contemporaneous with my
    24 exchange with the mayor on that particular
    25 day.


    1 Q. And the investigation of Mr. Wolf
    2 had started back in January of 1997; is that
    3 right?
    4 A. Yes.
    5 Q. How did -- how did Chris Wolf
    6 first become a suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey
    7 murder investigation, Mr. Thomas?
    8 A. Through a citizen informant.
    9 Q. And who was that citizen
    10 informant?
    11 A. Jackie Dilson.
    12 Q. Tell me your recollection of what
    13 Jackie Dilson did that resulted in Mr. Wolf
    14 becoming a suspect in the Ramsey murder
    15 investigation.
    16 A. I participated in a meeting with
    17 Jackie Dilson in which she offered an account
    18 with some dubious issues on the front end.
    19 She offered a piece of physical evidence that
    20 was exculpatory to Mr. Wolf. There were
    21 questions surrounding her stability and mental
    22 condition. Nonetheless, we investigated
    23 Mr. Wolf over a period of approximately 12 to
    24 15 months, during which time Ms. Wolf's --
    25 MR. DIAMOND: Ms. Wolf?


    1 A. I'm sorry, Ms. Dilson's accounts
    2 grew increasingly suspicious by way of making
    3 admissions and information known to us in a
    4 less than timely fashion.
    5 And then continuing to supply
    6 information that became increasingly void of
    7 credibility, including linking Access Graphics
    8 and Lockheed Martin in some conspiracy
    9 involving arms sales to "Third World countries
    10 and Chris Wolf planting by way of this
    11 conspiracy somehow a stun gun video inside
    12 the Ramsey home.
    13 Additionally, she tried to
    14 implicate Mr. Wolf in other crimes, including
    15 another homicide, and another individual or
    16 team of detectives were assigned to attempt a
    17 different tact with Mr. Wolf and were
    18 successful in gaining his compliance and
    19 cooperation, and I was made aware that they
    20 subsequently internally cleared him from
    21 involvement in the Ramsey matter.
    22 MR. DIAMOND: Before you ask him
    23 the next question, may I have a minute with
    24 the witness?
    25 MR. WOOD: If we note on the


    1 record the time and it's not charged against
    2 us.
    3 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    4 10:17. We're going off the record.
    5 MR. WOOD: We don't have to go
    6 off the record.
    7 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Oh, never mind.
    8 We're still on the record.
    9 MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.
    10 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Had you completed
    11 your answer?
    12 A. Yes.
    13 Q. Now, if I am hearing you, you
    14 gave me kind of a general overview of the
    15 Chris Wolf matter as pertains to Jackie
    16 Dilson that apparently she came to you as a
    17 citizen informant, the Boulder Police
    18 Department, provided information and then as
    19 that information was investigated, apparently
    20 you, perhaps others, felt that it was not
    21 necessarily credible and had suspicions about
    22 it as it pertains to Jackie Dilson, am I
    23 right?
    24 A. If you're asking me were there
    25 questions about Jackie Dilson's credibility,


    1 yes.
    2 Q. But you didn't know that the first
    3 day you met her, I mean you accepted on face
    4 value the information and you followed up on
    5 it to investigate Mr. Wolf, true?
    6 A. No, no, other detectives and
    7 myself who were present at that immediately
    8 had serious questions about her stability and
    9 credibility.
    10 Q. But not so much so that you did
    11 not follow up on it, true?
    12 A. We followed up on dozens of such
    13 suspects who came to us by way of citizen
    14 information.
    15 Q. We know it is true that Chris
    16 Wolf was a Boulder Police Department suspect
    17 in the JonBenet Ramsey investigation, right?
    18 A. You used the word suspect. That
    19 was always an issue inside the police
    20 department who would and wouldn't be on this
    21 proverbial suspect list. But as we sit here
    22 today, certainly he, among many others, I
    23 considered a suspect in the case.
    24 Q. And you later learned that the
    25 district attorney's office viewed Mr. Wolf as


    1 a suspect, true?
    2 A. True in that, after the fact, I
    3 came to learn that they were conducting some
    4 investigation that I had been previously
    5 unaware of.
    6 Q. It is clear from your involvement
    7 that Mr. Wolf became a suspect in the
    8 JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation as a
    9 result of Jackie Dilson, true?
    10 A. Yes.
    11 Q. Several months later, it was
    12 several months after January of 1997 before
    13 any information was provided by the Ramsey --
    14 John and Patsy Ramsey's investigators to law
    15 enforcement about Mr. Wolf; is that true?
    16 A. I'm sorry, give me that time line
    17 again, Mr. Wood.
    18 Q. Yeah, several -- if this helps any
    19 at all as I understand it, and you may tell
    20 me you don't know or you may agree with me,
    21 Steve Ainsworth started looking into Chris
    22 Wolf in August of 1997. Does that coincide
    23 with your recollection?
    24 A. No.
    25 Q. When do you think Steve Ainsworth


    1 began to look at him?
    2 A. June of 1997.
    3 Q. Okay. Subsequent to that, the
    4 Ramseys' investigators began to provide some
    5 information to the district attorney's office
    6 about Mr. Wolf; is that your understanding?
    7 A. I have no personal knowledge of
    8 what the Ramsey investigators were or weren't
    9 doing.
    10 Q. They didn't provide you with any
    11 information about Mr. Wolf, did they?
    12 A. Me personally, no, not that I'm
    13 aware of.
    14 Q. Are you aware of any information
    15 that the Ramsey investigators provided to the
    16 Boulder Police Department about Mr. Wolf?
    17 A. I can't speak for others, but
    18 certainly none came to me directly.
    19 Q. You were operating from the
    20 standpoint that you were following up on Ms.
    21 Dilson's information and developing and
    22 investigating that information and any leads
    23 or other areas that your investigation might
    24 take you with respect to Chris Wolf, true?
    25 A. Mr. Wolf, if I understand it


    1 correctly, if you're asking me if I was
    2 following up on information that Dilson
    3 was --
    4 Q. Mr. Wood. That's okay.
    5 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Wood, that
    6 Ms. Dilson was providing regarding Chris Wolf,
    7 yes, I was doing that.
    8 Q. You said when she first came to
    9 you she provided you with a piece of
    10 exculpatory evidence. What was that?
    11 A. From a pillow case, Ms. Dilson
    12 produced a length of rope that was
    13 immediately visually inconsistent to the
    14 persons present with the murder ligature in
    15 the homicide case.
    16 Q. Well, now how is that exculpatory.
    17 You're saying it wouldn't be incriminating but
    18 how does it as a piece of evidence prove to
    19 be exculpatory of Mr. Wolf?
    20 A. It may be a choice of words on my
    21 behalf but she did not produce us -- or
    22 produce any physical evidence that
    23 incriminated him. There was nothing that she
    24 produced that evening by way of physical
    25 evidence that included him in the running, so


    1 to speak.
    2 Q. That would be a better way of
    3 phrasing it than to say it was exculpatory,
    4 wouldn't you agree?
    5 A. I won't quibble with you on that,
    6 Mr. Wood.
    7 Q. I don't want you to quibble with
    8 me. I want you to tell me whether it's a
    9 more accurate statement that the evidence that
    10 she presented to you with respect to the rope
    11 did not incriminate Mr. Wolf, but nor did it
    12 prove to be itself exculpatory of Mr. Wolf,
    13 is that accurate?
    14 A. Okay. True, sure.
    15 Q. Okay. Tell me about the first
    16 time you had a chance to meet Mr. Wolf, what
    17 you recall about that.
    18 A. On a particular date in January of
    19 1997, shortly after Dilson's information, we
    20 had Mr. Wolf brought into the police
    21 department in which we had a rather
    22 unpleasant exchange and little or no
    23 information was obtained from him at that
    24 time.
    25 Q. Was his conduct at that time what


    1 you would characterize as suspicious?
    2 A. Everything depends on context but
    3 he was not, certainly not cooperative.
    4 Q. Well, didn't you ask him to write
    5 certain words that were from the ransom note
    6 found in the Ramsey house?
    7 A. Yes.
    8 Q. And didn't he refuse to do so?
    9 A. Yes.
    10 Q. That certainly was not consistent
    11 with innocence, was it?
    12 A. Sometimes I've found that a lack
    13 of cooperation like that may not be any more
    14 indicative of guilt than a cooperative person
    15 who turns out to be guilty.
    16 Q. So someone's refusal to cooperate
    17 with you by either agreeing to an interview
    18 or submitting to a handwriting exemplar is
    19 not viewed by you necessarily as being
    20 indicative of guilt, true?
    21 A. It's not evidence.
    22 Q. Well, you said, I believe, that
    23 you have found that a lack of cooperation
    24 like that may not be any more indicative of
    25 guilt than a cooperative person who turns out


    1 to be guilty; is that right?
    2 A. Yeah, in response to your
    3 question.
    4 Q. So let me put it in the terms
    5 that you put it. It is not evidence of
    6 guilt by simply refusing to cooperate with
    7 the police by either agreeing to an interview
    8 or submitting to a handwriting exemplar, true?
    9 A. Are you reading back to me my
    10 statement or your question?
    11 Q. I'm asking you a question. Don't
    12 worry about what I'm reading; I'm asking you
    13 a question.
    14 A. Repeat the question for me,
    15 please.
    16 Q. It is not evidence of guilt on
    17 the part of someone who simply refuses to
    18 cooperate with the police by either agreeing
    19 to an interview or submitting to a
    20 handwriting exemplar, true?
    21 MR. DIAMOND: If that's what he
    22 said that doesn't make sense.
    23 A. I have lost you one more time,
    24 Mr. Wood.
    25 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You don't


    1 understand the question?
    2 A. No.
    3 Q. An individual who is not
    4 cooperative and does not agree to a police
    5 interview or agree to a police request to
    6 provide a handwriting exemplar, that refusal
    7 to cooperate is not evidence of that
    8 individual's guilt, true?
    9 A. I would agree with that.
    10 Q. Thank you.
    11 A. In that context.
    12 Q. In what context?
    13 A. We're talking about Mr. Wolf here.
    14 Q. Well, I was talking about any
    15 individual.
    16 A. Then repeat the question to me,
    17 please.
    18 Q. An individual who is not
    19 cooperative and does not agree to a police
    20 interview or agree to a police request to
    21 provide a handwriting exemplar, that
    22 individual's refusal to cooperate is not
    23 itself evidence of that individual's guilt,
    24 true?
    25 A. That is not evidence you can take


    1 to a judge in an affidavit, certainly not.
    2 Q. Not evidence of guilt?
    3 A. Not evidence in a courtroom, as I
    4 understand it.
    5 Q. Okay. The -- there is the use of
    6 the word hobbled, do you know what that
    7 means?
    8 A. In the context of police work?
    9 Q. Yes.
    10 A. Yes, sir.
    11 Q. What does that mean to hobble
    12 somebody?
    13 A. When you have a violent or a
    14 physically resistive or combative individual
    15 or suspect who you cannot otherwise control,
    16 the hobbling procedure, as I understand it,
    17 beyond handcuffs behind the back include
    18 restraining the ankles and legs through the
    19 use of what is called a hobble.
    20 Q. When you first met Chris Wolf and
    21 had this incident you have generally described
    22 for us, did you have to hobble him?
    23 A. I think I was involved in that
    24 personally. He was hobbled before he was
    25 transported to jail.


    1 Q. Who helped you hobble him?
    2 A. There were other officers present
    3 and I don't know that -- I can't speak for
    4 Gosage but if I participated, and I may very
    5 well have, there were other people present,
    6 including I think a Detective Whiten, a
    7 traffic sergeant, Detective Chromiak, maybe
    8 some uniform people.
    9 Q. Why did you all have to hobble
    10 him?
    11 A. Because he was physically
    12 uncooperative and resistive.
    13 Q. How did you hobble him? In other
    14 words, you said it is always putting
    15 handcuffs behind the back and restraining the
    16 ankles and legs. Is that the standard
    17 technique?
    18 A. Yes, that's my --
    19 Q. One way to do it?
    20 A. -- that's my recollection of how
    21 he was hobbled that day.
    22 Q. Would he let you take a picture
    23 of him?
    24 A. No.
    25 Q. Did you get any information from


    1 him in terms of being able to get answers to
    2 any questions?
    3 A. As was the case with most of the
    4 interviews, I'm sure there's a transcription
    5 that will bear it out, but I don't recall,
    6 as we sit here today, what information we may
    7 have gotten from him in that interview room
    8 that particular day.
    9 Q. Do you know if you got any?
    10 A. As I sit here now, I don't know
    11 that we got any information from him that
    12 day, maybe beyond the name, rank, serial
    13 number type of personal information.
    14 Q. Do you know how it came to be
    15 that he was stopped by the Boulder Police
    16 Department and brought to the office?
    17 A. I do.
    18 Q. Tell me about that.
    19 A. The confidential informant in this
    20 case --
    21 Q. That's Ms. Dilson?
    22 A. Ms. Dilson.
    23 Q. Okay.
    24 A. Wanted to remain confidential as
    25 she had some concerns. And in attempting to


    1 maintain her CI status, we used a ruse with
    2 some information that she had provided us
    3 about Mr. Wolf's driving record and had him
    4 stopped and picked up legally on that basis.
    5 Q. Why did you want him to provide
    6 you with a handwriting exemplar from the
    7 Ramsey ransom note?
    8 A. Because when information came into
    9 the Boulder Police Department suggesting as in
    10 this case as detailed as Jackie Dilson made
    11 it appear, someone's possible involvement in
    12 this homicide, we had to have some sort of
    13 initial screening process that was done on
    14 scores of people where you try to obtain
    15 non-testimonial physical evidence to see if
    16 there was anything linking a particular
    17 individual to the ransom note or the crime,
    18 as well as a preliminary interview and/or
    19 alibi confirmation.
    20 Q. You didn't on -- in January you
    21 did not get a preliminary interview with
    22 Chris Wolf, right, tried but failed?
    23 A. That's right.
    24 Q. Didn't get a handwriting exemplar,
    25 right?


    1 A. That's right.
    2 Q. Didn't get any non testimony --
    3 testimonial physical evidence from him, did
    4 you?
    5 A. No, sir.
    6 Q. He really, short of not
    7 cooperating and becoming violent sufficiently
    8 that he had to be hobbled, you really weren't
    9 able to conduct any type of an initial
    10 screening process on Chris Wolf in January of
    11 1997, true?
    12 A. True.
    13 Q. And then it was 1998, February of
    14 1998, when you were finally able to get him
    15 to provide non-testimonial evidence?
    16 A. As I said earlier, I'm not real
    17 sure of the date or it being February but
    18 I'll --
    19 Q. Take a look at your book; it may
    20 be helpful in that. 271, the bottom of the
    21 page. "On February 25th the mayor chewed me
    22 out." Does that help you?
    23 A. Sure.
    24 Q. Okay.
    25 A. I --


    1 Q. So in February of 1998, that's
    2 when the Boulder Police Department first
    3 obtained non-testimonial evidence from Chris
    4 Wolf, hair sample, DNA sample, and handwriting
    5 exemplar, right?
    6 A. To my knowledge, yes.
    7 Q. What was his alibi?
    8 A. Well, as I mentioned earlier very
    9 briefly, after this difficult encounter with
    10 Mr. Wolf by Detective Gosage and myself, it
    11 was determined at some level to attempt a
    12 different tact at gaining his cooperation.
    13 And so they put Detective Weinheimer, possibly
    14 others, on to that lead and they took it
    15 from there. And I don't know, I don't have
    16 any personal knowledge of how they wound up
    17 coming to the determination that he was
    18 cleared other than letting the others in the
    19 investigative team know that he had been
    20 sufficiently cleared.
    21 Q. You don't know on what basis?
    22 A. I don't.
    23 Q. You don't know what Chris Wolf's
    24 alibi was?
    25 A. I do not.


    1 Q. Chris Wolf has indicated to us
    2 that he was never asked to take a polygraph
    3 exam. Do you have any factual information to
    4 dispute that?
    5 A. I don't have any knowledge of
    6 that.
    7 Q. If Jackie Dilson said Chris Wolf
    8 lived with her and that I believe she woke
    9 on the morning of the 26th of December and
    10 he was coming out of the shower and that his
    11 clothes were dirty, do you recall that being
    12 information provided by Ms. Dilson?
    13 A. Yes.
    14 Q. If that were his only alibi, that
    15 is to say, well, I was at home with Jackie
    16 Dilson who I lived with at the time and
    17 Jackie Dilson who he lived with at the time
    18 came to the police with suspicions that he
    19 might have been involved in the murder,
    20 wouldn't you ask Mr. Wolf to, as you say,
    21 sit down on the box, get on the box and take
    22 a polygraph exam to see how he did on that
    23 alibi?
    24 A. Certainly. There are many people
    25 in this case I would have liked to have


    1 steered toward the box.
    2 Q. I'm asking you about Mr. Wolf.
    3 Wouldn't that be standard procedure with an
    4 alibi that is related only to being with the
    5 person who thinks that you may have been
    6 involved in the murder that you would say,
    7 well, Mr. Wolf, if that's your alibi that you
    8 weren't out that night let's put it -- put
    9 you on a polygraph exam and see what you
    10 say; wouldn't that be standard procedure?
    11 A. Certainly in some departments but
    12 it had been my experience that the Boulder
    13 Police Department had never embraced and had
    14 no policy, that I'm aware of, in place
    15 regarding polygraphy.
    16 Q. So there was no standard practice
    17 in the Boulder Police Department about when
    18 to seek a polygraph examination from a
    19 suspect?
    20 A. For example, in other departments
    21 who have in-house polygraphers.
    22 Q. Well, I'm asking you about the
    23 Boulder Police Department?
    24 A. I'm trying to get to that.
    25 Q. Let's get to that for me, if you


    1 would, please.
    2 MR. DIAMOND: Let him finish.
    3 A. Regarding the Boulder Police
    4 Department, there was no in-house polygrapher
    5 and it didn't appear to me that there was
    6 any sort of a policy in place, although I
    7 personally favored the use of polygraphs in
    8 some cases. In which to -- and how it was
    9 necessarily applied, we certainly were able to
    10 polygraph some other potential suspects in
    11 this case but I don't know that Mr. Wolf
    12 ever was.
    13 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You don't have any
    14 basis to dispute his statement that he was
    15 never asked to take a polygraph, do you?
    16 A. No.
    17 Q. And do you -- are you aware of
    18 any efforts by the Boulder Police Department
    19 to ever obtain Mr. Wolf's computer and the
    20 hard drive from his computer to have it
    21 analyzed as part of its thorough
    22 investigation?
    23 A. If I recall correctly, Jackie
    24 Dilson early in this investigation of
    25 Mr. Wolf had volunteered to me that she would


    1 supply me with items belonging to Mr. Wolf,
    2 bed sheets, underwear, writings, et cetera,
    3 and I explained to her that she could not
    4 act as an agent on behalf of law enforcement.
    5 And she may have volunteered the computer
    6 equipment you mentioned.
    7 Q. But you didn't accept her offer?
    8 A. I couldn't.
    9 Q. Because you thought it would raise
    10 questions of chain of custody and
    11 admissibility?
    12 A. Not because I thought so. Because
    13 that, if my understanding is correct and I
    14 think the legal advisor and even Hofstrom,
    15 you can't have a private citizen act as an
    16 agent on your behalf to circumvent a search
    17 warrant.
    18 Q. Well, you couldn't -- you could
    19 test the material and gain potentially
    20 valuable information even if that information
    21 might not be admissible in court, couldn't
    22 you, sir?
    23 A. I wasn't trained that way in the
    24 least. And I know from dope work, you can't
    25 use a citizen to act as your agent.


    1 Q. So if Jackie Dilson walks in and
    2 says here is a piece of evidence, here is a
    3 rope --
    4 A. Sir.
    5 Q. -- did you tell her, did you say
    6 wait a minute, I can't take that rope from
    7 you, Ms. Dilson?
    8 A. Very different.
    9 Q. How is that different --
    10 A. Here we --
    11 Q. -- her offering to bring you
    12 articles of clothing or his computer?
    13 A. It's my understanding, and here is
    14 the difference, is she volunteered evidence on
    15 the front end without any prior knowledge on
    16 our behalf, which is acceptable, according to
    17 our in-house legal advisor.
    18 But when an individual makes it
    19 known to you as a detective that they would
    20 go out and seek to gather evidence on your
    21 behalf and bring that to you for testing,
    22 that's entirely inappropriate.
    23 Q. Did you have after Mr. -- based
    24 on Ms. Dilson's statements to you and
    25 Mr. Wolf's actions when you had him brought


    1 in under the ruse, did you have probable
    2 cause at that time in your view to obtain a
    3 search warrant of Ms. Dilson's property to
    4 obtain items of evidence to be analyzed?
    5 A. As a matter of fact, I went to
    6 Mr. Hofstrom, at the time the chief trial
    7 deputy in the DA's office, and this was just
    8 one of scores of examples in which we needed
    9 the power of the DA's office either through
    10 warrant or preferably grand jury subpoena to
    11 secure evidence.
    12 And during the course of, it's
    13 been my experience, during the course of '97
    14 and '98 received certainly no grand jury, but
    15 very little support from Mr. Hofstrom in the
    16 DA's office and in this case made my
    17 Detective Sergeant Wickman aware of our
    18 inability based mostly on the DA's office
    19 reluctance to move forward further
    20 investigating Wolf at that time.
    21 Q. Thank you. My question was, did
    22 you have in your mind probable cause
    23 sufficient to obtain a search warrant of Ms.
    24 Dilson's residence to obtain items of evidence
    25 based on the information she had provided to


    1 you and the conduct of Mr. Wolf when you had
    2 him in the office under the ruse?
    3 MR. DIAMOND: Did he conclude then
    4 or are you asking him to look now in
    5 hindsight?
    6 MR. WOOD: I think my question is
    7 extremely clear.
    8 MR. DIAMOND: Reread it, please.
    9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I would be glad to
    10 do it. My question was, did you have in
    11 your mind probable cause sufficent to obtain
    12 a search warrant of Ms. Dilson's residence to
    13 obtain items of evidence based on the
    14 information she had provided to the department
    15 and the conduct of Mr. Wolf when you had him
    16 in the police department under the ruse. Did
    17 you think as a police officer that you had
    18 probable cause to get a warrant to get these
    19 items and property?
    20 A. I understand the question,
    21 Mr. Wood.
    22 Q. Okay. Thank you. What is the
    23 answer?
    24 A. The answer is one of the items
    25 that I or anyone else would have relied on


    1 to put within the four corners of a warrant
    2 affidavit did not include any physical
    3 evidence and would have been based almost
    4 soley on the information provided by an
    5 unreliable, mentally unstable informant. And
    6 I would have had -- I don't know that I
    7 would have put forth my name on a search
    8 warrant affidavit and taken it to a judge
    9 based solely on Jackie Dilson's information.
    10 Q. I didn't ask you that. I asked
    11 you based on Jackie Dilson's information and
    12 Mr. Wolf's conduct when you had him in the
    13 department under the ruse?
    14 A. Well, I'm not making my answer
    15 clear obviously to you.
    16 Q. I don't think you are but maybe
    17 I'm not understanding it.
    18 A. No. I'm saying I did not have
    19 sufficient facts and circumstances to put in
    20 a warrant affidavit.
    21 Q. When did you conclude that Jackie
    22 Dilson was unreliable and mentally unstable?
    23 Did you conclude that on the first meeting
    24 with her?
    25 A. Yes, Mr. Wood. And I suggest you


    1 read that transcript and the comments of the
    2 other detectives walking out of the office
    3 that night. It was -- she had, God bless
    4 her, mental health problems. She's on
    5 medication. She's an alcoholic and just was
    6 not deemed terribly reliable. But
    7 nonetheless, we chose to move forward with
    8 that information and look at Mr. Wolf.
    9 Q. Let me make sure I understand how
    10 the Boulder Police Department was working now.
    11 You were involved at this time specifically
    12 with Chris Wolf, right?
    13 A. Yes.
    14 Q. So if I understand you --
    15 MR. DIAMOND: Can he answer the
    16 question?
    17 A. At what time?
    18 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You said yes, at
    19 this time in January of 1997 so here is what
    20 I understand. You, Mr. Thomas, as a
    21 detective of the Boulder Police Department
    22 took an individual that you decided in one
    23 meeting was on medication, was an alcoholic,
    24 was not reliable, had mental problems, was
    25 mentally unstable, and you set up a ruse to


    1 have a man brought into the Boulder Police
    2 Department to try to get him to give you a
    3 handwriting exemplar of the Ramsey note, to
    4 try to get his photograph, and then you
    5 hobbled this man based on an informant that
    6 you tell me today was an alcoholic, mentally
    7 unstable and unreliable; is that the way you
    8 did business with Mr. Wolf?
    9 A. She provided sufficient details
    10 that warranted looking further at Mr. Wolf.
    11 Q. So, I mean, you felt like you
    12 then did have a legitimate basis to
    13 investigate Mr. Wolf as a suspect in the
    14 case, even though you had some concerns about
    15 Ms. Dilson's reliability and mental status; is
    16 that a fair statement?
    17 A. As I just said, there -- she
    18 provided some sufficient details to look
    19 further at Mr. Wolf in this case.
    20 Q. So you felt like, then, that you
    21 did have a legitimate basis to investigate
    22 Mr. Wolf as a suspect in the case even
    23 though you had some concerns about
    24 Ms. Dilson's reliability and mental status; is
    25 that a fair statement?


    1 A. Yes.
    2 Q. Thank you. Back when you all had
    3 the June 1998 presentation that is referred
    4 to -- is that referred to as the VIP
    5 presentation?
    6 A. We can refer to it as that.
    7 Q. Did you ever hear it referred to
    8 as that when you had the VIPs there?
    9 A. I think so.
    10 Q. Let's refer to it as the June
    11 1998 VIP presentation so we know what we're
    12 talking about. Did, in fact, the detectives
    13 during that presentation present a long list
    14 of suspects who had been considered and
    15 dropped, including Randy Simons, Kevin
    16 Rayburn, Bud Henderson, Linda Hoffman-Pugh,
    17 Joe Barnhill and Chris Wolf?
    18 A. I would certainly have to review
    19 any notes and reports from the police files
    20 on that, but that's not inconsistent with my
    21 recollection.
    22 Q. You recall then the presentation
    23 including a statement that Chris Wolf was a
    24 suspect who had been eliminated?
    25 A. No, that's not what I'm saying.


    1 What I am saying is I don't recall that --
    2 there was a lot of information exchanged over
    3 two days at this VIP presentation. It very
    4 well may have been said but you asked me
    5 right now, I don't have that specific
    6 recollection about that particular individual.
    7 Q. Do you know whether Chris Wolf's
    8 DNA was ever tested?
    9 A. I have no personal knowledge of
    10 that.
    11 Q. Was Chris Wolf one of the 73
    12 individuals, that number that you referenced
    13 with respect to your comments about 73
    14 suspects having their handwriting analyzed, is
    15 he one of the 73?
    16 A. I don't know.
    17 Q. Well, how did you come up with
    18 the number 73?
    19 A. From Detective Trujillo's briefing
    20 to other detectives about CBI's examinations.
    21 Q. Do you know whether -- do you
    22 know as a fact firsthand or from what you've
    23 heard whether Chris Wolf's handwriting was
    24 ever analyzed by the Boulder Police
    25 Department?


    1 A. As I said previously, I don't know
    2 the details of Detective Weinheimer's
    3 subsequent investigation of Chris Wolf.
    4 Q. Is the answer no, you don't know?
    5 A. The answer to what?
    6 Q. To my question.
    7 A. What is the question, sir?
    8 Q. Listen carefully. From -- my
    9 question was, do you know as a fact,
    10 firsthand or from what you heard, whether
    11 Chris Wolf's handwriting was ever analyzed by
    12 the Boulder Police Department, yes or no?
    13 A. I don't know that.
    14 Q. Do you know?
    15 A. I don't know that.
    16 Q. Okay. Do you know whether
    17 Mr. Wolf, I guess you can tell me this is
    18 pretty easy, maybe you'll understand this one.
    19 Clearly you don't know whether he was -- his
    20 handwriting eliminated him as the author of
    21 the note, do you?
    22 A. As I have said, I don't know the
    23 details of Detective Weinheimer's investigation
    24 but took Detective Weinheimer's statement that
    25 Chris Wolf was cleared at face value.


    1 Q. Knowing what you know about how
    2 the Boulder Police Department, what would one
    3 use to clear someone, what could possibly
    4 clear an individual here? One would be a
    5 solid alibi, right?
    6 A. Yes, sir.
    7 Q. Verified, right?
    8 A. Yes, sir.
    9 Q. What else?
    10 A. Handwriting, certainly.
    11 Q. Handwriting. That eliminated John
    12 Ramsey as the author of the ransom note?
    13 A. Is that a question?
    14 Q. Yes.
    15 A. What is your question?
    16 Q. You said handwriting and I said
    17 handwriting, that eliminated John Ramsey as
    18 the author of the ransom note, true?
    19 A. That's my understanding.
    20 Q. All right. What else besides
    21 alibi and handwriting?
    22 A. I don't know what was being done
    23 with it on the back end, but certainly a
    24 polygraph examination.
    25 Q. So you would eliminate based


    1 solely on a polygraph?
    2 A. No.
    3 Q. All right. You would take it
    4 into consideration?
    5 MR. DIAMOND: You have to answer
    6 audibly.
    7 A. We would take our polygraph
    8 examinations into consideration, yes, sir.
    9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) All of your
    10 polygraph examinations were done by the FBI,
    11 weren't they?
    12 A. I believe so.
    13 Q. You didn't have anybody on the
    14 Boulder Police Department that was trained in
    15 polygraph examinations, did you?
    16 A. I don't know if anybody received
    17 polygraph training but we did not have an
    18 in-house polygrapher.
    19 Q. Okay. So we've got alibi,
    20 handwriting, polygraph, what else?
    21 MR. DIAMOND: Polygraph coupled
    22 with other things he said.
    23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Well, yeah,
    24 polygraph alone would not be sufficient to
    25 clear someone, would it?


    1 A. Not necessarily, no.
    2 Q. Right. So now what else could be
    3 utilized, as you understood this
    4 investigation, to clear a suspect?
    5 A. Witnesses.
    6 Q. Witnesses as to alibi?
    7 A. Yes, certainly that.
    8 Q. Witnesses as to what else?
    9 A. Well, I think you're hitting the
    10 highlights. Beyond that, I don't know how
    11 specifically those determinations beyond that,
    12 the obvious, people were being cleared.
    13 Q. You're familiar with the use of
    14 the term forensics, aren't you?
    15 A. I am.
    16 Q. What would be forensic evidence
    17 that could clear someone in the JonBenet
    18 Ramsey investigation?
    19 A. Handwriting.
    20 Q. Anything else?
    21 MR. DIAMOND: You're saying
    22 standing by itself?
    23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Standing by itself,
    24 if I were going to say, well, John Doe has
    25 been eliminated as a suspect in the JonBenet


    1 Ramsey investigation based on forensic
    2 evidence, what is the only forensic evidence
    3 that you were aware of that could have itself
    4 eliminated someone from being involved?
    5 A. Besides the handwriting?
    6 Q. I want the answer. If it's
    7 handwriting, if there was anything else, let
    8 me know that.
    9 A. Well, I know the big controversy
    10 -- thank you very much -- was whether or not
    11 DNA was clearing people in this case.
    12 Q. And ultimately it was not, was it?
    13 A. I don't know. I certainly don't
    14 hold myself out as a DNA expert.
    15 Q. No, but I mean, you knew the
    16 approach the investigation was taking from the
    17 time of your involvement through August of
    18 '98 and the DNA either quite simply either
    19 eliminated everybody or it eliminated nobody
    20 if it wasn't a match, true?
    21 A. There was a huge controversy about
    22 the DNA.
    23 Q. So it was not in and of itself
    24 viewed as a forensic piece of evidence that
    25 eliminated anyone, was it?


    1 A. Correct.
    2 Q. Other than handwriting, what else
    3 was the basis for a forensic evidence that
    4 would eliminate someone as a suspect in the
    5 Ramsey case?
    6 A. May I have just a moment?
    7 Q. Sure.
    8 (Discussion off the record between
    9 the deponent and Mr. Diamond.)
    10 A. Mr. Wood, unless I'm missing
    11 something entirely obvious, no, the
    12 handwriting, the ransom note, et cetera, was
    13 the sort of cornerstone piece of evidence in
    14 this case and I think that's how most people
    15 were being cleared.
    16 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Well, when you say
    17 most people were being cleared, had the
    18 Boulder Police Department concluded that the
    19 murderer and the author of the note were one
    20 and the same, that is to say, had the
    21 Boulder Police Department concluded that there
    22 could not have been involvement by more than
    23 one person?
    24 A. I think there was some division on
    25 that point.


    1 Q. Because actually the handwriting,
    2 only if eliminated under analysis, only really
    3 eliminates an individual as the author of the
    4 note but does not in and of itself eliminate
    5 the person from involvement in the crime,
    6 true?
    7 A. I think the collective consensus
    8 was that certainly it wasn't a leap the
    9 author of the note was involved in the crime.
    10 Q. I don't think that would be a
    11 leap. But the question is elimination as the
    12 author of the note did not in and of itself
    13 eliminate one from involvement in the crime,
    14 true?
    15 A. By way of a conspiracy that you're
    16 suggesting that --
    17 Q. I'm just suggesting straight up,
    18 sir, handwriting analysis that eliminates you
    19 as the author of the note does not in and of
    20 itself eliminate you from involvement in the
    21 crime, true?
    22 A. One could argue that, yes, sir.
    23 Q. Fiber evidence was not a forensic
    24 test that was used to eliminate in and of
    25 itself, was it?


    1 A. As far as elimination of suspects,
    2 I don't have firsthand knowledge of the fiber
    3 evidence testing and that wasn't an assignment
    4 I had in this case. But no, I don't believe
    5 that fiber evidence in and of itself was any
    6 sort of eliminator.
    7 Q. Do you know whether any fiber
    8 tests were ever conducted on non-testimonial
    9 evidence voluntarily provided by Chris Wolf,
    10 any fibers ever tested to your knowledge?
    11 A. I got the impression that it was.
    12 Q. Where did you get that impression?
    13 A. From Jackie Dilson after she
    14 turned over to Investigator Ainsworth and/or
    15 Smit in June of '97 what she told me were, I
    16 think, bed linens, a leather jacket, a diary,
    17 maybe underwear, and she told me that she had
    18 been told they were going to submit that for
    19 testing.
    20 Q. Do you know whether it was tested?
    21 A. I do not.
    22 Q. Do you -- you certainly have no
    23 idea of what any of the results would have
    24 been if tested, true?
    25 A. Correct.



  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member


    1 Q. Do you know how many handwriting
    2 exemplars Mr. Wolf gave?
    3 A. No, as I said before I don't know
    4 the breadth or depth or extent of Mr. --
    5 Detective Weinheimer's investigation into
    6 Mr. Wolf.
    7 Q. What was the standard practice in
    8 terms of when you were obtaining handwriting
    9 exemplars from suspects for analysis, how many
    10 exemplars were standardly obtained?
    11 A. It's my recollection that
    12 initially, and I can only speak to what
    13 myself and Gosage were doing routinely, we
    14 were asking for the voluntary completion of
    15 what is known as a London letter, as well as
    16 a second sheet including words or phrases
    17 from the ransom note and that initial screen
    18 was what I'm assuming after booked into
    19 evidence was eventually going to CBI for
    20 analysis to see if there was any reason to
    21 further investigate an individual.
    22 Q. Your understanding is there were
    23 73 suspects whose handwriting was analyzed?
    24 A. At the time of the VIP
    25 presentation, at the time I left, yes --


    1 Q. June of 1998?
    2 A. -- that was the number.
    3 Q. And of those 73, how many of
    4 those individuals were eliminated as the
    5 author of the note based on the handwriting
    6 analysis itself?
    7 A. And I'm not a handwriting expert,
    8 but under entire elimination, I don't know.
    9 Q. I don't want to know about entire
    10 elimination unless you're using that in a
    11 phrase, maybe you are. I want to -- you've
    12 got 73 people whose handwriting was tested,
    13 and you've either got a result from CBI that
    14 says we've got a match, right, or you've got
    15 a result from CBI that says basically
    16 inconclusive or you've got a result from CBI
    17 that says elimination, right?
    18 A. No, I don't think it's that
    19 simple.
    20 Q. Well, I'm not trying to make it
    21 more complicated than that. But maybe you
    22 know more about it and if you do, then, that
    23 would be helpful for me to learn. I want to
    24 know, though, from the bottom line that we
    25 can agree that it is simple when it comes to


    1 the question of elimination, that's simple
    2 because that's one of the categories,
    3 elimination --
    4 A. Right.
    5 Q. -- right?
    6 A. Right.
    7 Q. And how many of the 73 were
    8 eliminated as the author of the note based on
    9 the handwriting examples or exemplars?
    10 A. I don't know.
    11 Q. Not many, true?
    12 A. I know that the majority fell into
    13 the no evidence to indicate category.
    14 Q. But they couldn't go to
    15 elimination, could they?
    16 A. Again, I don't know.
    17 Q. Didn't you talk with the
    18 handwriting expert, sir?
    19 A. Are we talking about the CBI
    20 expert?
    21 Q. Any of them. There were four
    22 with respect to Patsy Ramsey, weren't there?
    23 A. Yes.
    24 Q. How many other of the 73 had four
    25 different examiners look at their handwriting?


    1 A. I don't know.
    2 Q. Do you know of any? Can you name
    3 one?
    4 A. I'm trying to recall with those
    5 three additional examiners if other suspects'
    6 historical writings or exemplars were provided
    7 to them. As I sit here today, I don't know.
    8 But if any, the number would be few.
    9 Q. Do you know whether the Boulder
    10 Police Department obtained historical writings
    11 with respect to Chris Wolf's handwriting?
    12 A. I don't know. I didn't get very
    13 far with Mr. Wolf, Mr. White -- or Mr. Wood,
    14 I'm sorry.
    15 Q. That's okay. Fleet White's
    16 handwriting was tested?
    17 A. I believe so, yes.
    18 Q. Was he eliminated?
    19 A. He fell into a category that he
    20 was no longer, if my understanding is
    21 correct, and this wasn't my assignment, but
    22 by way of detective briefings, Mr. White was
    23 not in the running, if you will, by way of a
    24 handwriting exemplar.
    25 Q. My question is not in the running.


    1 My question is was he eliminated as the
    2 author of the note based on a handwriting
    3 analysis conducted by the Boulder Police
    4 Department or the CBI?
    5 A. I don't know what the CBI expert
    6 concluded as far as a categorical elimination
    7 of Mr. White.
    8 Q. John Ramsey was categorically
    9 eliminated, wasn't he?
    10 A. Again I would liken it to
    11 Mr. White. I simply learned that Mr. Ramsey
    12 was not a candidate based on his handwriting.
    13 Q. You don't know whether John Ramsey
    14 was eliminated by the examiner at CBI as an
    15 author of the note based on that and his --
    16 the analysis of his exemplars, you don't know
    17 that as we sit here today?
    18 A. He may very well have fallen into
    19 that majority of no evidence to indicate but
    20 if you're telling me that he fell into the
    21 elimination category, I won't dispute that
    22 because we never had any concerns after some
    23 of these results that he was the author of
    24 the note.
    25 Q. Well, the question is not what I'm


    1 suggesting to you. Do you know? Do you
    2 have any idea whether his report from CBI
    3 came back and said John Ramsey has been
    4 eliminated based on the CBI analysis as the
    5 author of the ransom note? Do you know one
    6 way or the other, sir?
    7 A. As to what category he fell into?
    8 Q. Whether he was eliminated by the
    9 CBI analysis is my question, please, sir?
    10 A. As to the category he fell into,
    11 including a category of elimination, I don't
    12 have personal knowledge.
    13 Q. Do you have any knowledge,
    14 secondary or otherwise?
    15 A. As I told you a minute ago,
    16 Mr. Wood, it was my understanding from our
    17 briefings that he was not a candidate as the
    18 author of the note. I don't know what else
    19 I can -- how many ways I can answer that
    20 question for you.
    21 Q. I just want to know if you know
    22 the results of the CBI analysis of John
    23 Ramsey's handwriting?
    24 MR. DIAMOND: Any more clearly
    25 than he just told you?


    1 MR. WOOD: That's my question.
    2 Do you want to answer for him? Because if
    3 so --
    4 MR. DIAMOND: I think you --
    5 MR. WOOD: -- I would love to
    6 swear you in and examine you under oath, but
    7 I think it would be a waste of our time.
    8 MR. DIAMOND: I think you're not
    9 listening to the answers. We're not --
    10 MR. WOOD: Why don't you worry
    11 about your side of the table and let me
    12 worry about mine. If I'm not understanding
    13 him, that's my fault. I mean, it's my walk
    14 away without the information, right? I think
    15 I'm understanding. I'm just not sure I'm
    16 getting a straight answer. It seems to me
    17 that this gentleman should know, as he claims
    18 to be one of the lead detectives on the
    19 case, whether John Ramsey's CBI handwriting
    20 analysis came back elimination.
    21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) And you don't
    22 know, do you?
    23 A. As I have told you, Mr. Wood, I
    24 stand on my answer, yeah, I know that he was
    25 not -- that he was eliminated by way of


    1 handwriting. But if you're asking me if the
    2 CBI examiner reached a conclusion of
    3 elimination, I'm sitting here again telling
    4 you I don't have personal knowledge of that.
    5 Q. Let me go that route because I
    6 think I understand you. Do you know how
    7 many of the 73 individuals were eliminated by
    8 way of handwriting?
    9 A. By way of falling into the
    10 category of elimination.
    11 Q. That were eliminated by way of
    12 handwriting, your words.
    13 MR. DIAMOND: I think he means by
    14 the Boulder Police Department.
    15 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I mean that were
    16 eliminated by way of handwriting, certainly by
    17 the Boulder Police Department. You're the
    18 one that says 73?
    19 A. Out of those 73?
    20 Q. Out of those 73, I want to know
    21 how many were eliminated by way of
    22 handwriting?
    23 A. If you're asking me how many of
    24 those 73 fell into the elimination category
    25 based on question document examiner


    1 conclusions, is that what you're asking me?
    2 Q. I think so.
    3 A. Yeah.
    4 Q. What is the answer?
    5 A. I don't know.
    6 Q. You don't have any idea?
    7 A. No. As I have previously said on
    8 the record that number is probably very few.
    9 The majority of those, as I have said, fell
    10 into the no evidence to indicate category.
    11 Q. Did a lot of them have
    12 similarities?
    13 A. Did a lot of who?
    14 Q. A lot of the 73 people, did their
    15 -- did their analysis show similarities?
    16 A. I don't know, I'm not a
    17 handwriting expert.
    18 Q. Did you review the reports on any
    19 of the 73?
    20 A. Have you seen the -- if you've
    21 seen the CBI reports, that's not how they're
    22 stated in a narrative form like that. No, I
    23 never saw anything like that.
    24 Q. Nor does the CBI do handwriting
    25 analysis and reach a conclusion, for example,


    1 that 24 of 26 letters of the alphabet are
    2 similar, they don't do that, do they, sir?
    3 A. Well, according to Detective
    4 Sergeant Wickman, he came back and told us
    5 that.
    6 Q. But you know that Mr. Ubowski has
    7 in fact denied that as being accurate?
    8 A. No, I don't know that.
    9 Q. You didn't see his statement with
    10 respect to the fact that he had never
    11 concluded anything about Patsy Ramsey in terms
    12 of 24 of 26 letters of the alphabet being
    13 similar?
    14 A. Well, you can ask --
    15 Q. I'm asking you this question,
    16 please.
    17 A. I know and I'm trying to answer
    18 it for you.
    19 Q. Please do.
    20 A. Wickman came back from CBI and
    21 told that to John Eller and he told that to
    22 me and that was Trujillo's account and other
    23 detectives were told that.
    24 Q. You didn't hear it from Ubowski?
    25 A. No, I didn't deal with Ubowski.


    1 Q. You didn't see it in writing from
    2 Ubowski?
    3 A. No.
    4 Q. After your book came out you
    5 weren't aware that Ubowski publicly stated
    6 that he had never concluded that Patsy Ramsey
    7 was the author of the note and that he had
    8 never concluded that 24 of the 26 letters of
    9 the alphabet from her writing were similar?
    10 A. Well, you had two questions.
    11 Q. Are you familiar with my question?
    12 MR. DIAMOND: Will you let him
    13 answer the question, please?
    14 MR. WOOD: I will. I think I've
    15 let him answer every question so far.
    16 MR. DIAMOND: You didn't. You
    17 didn't.
    18 MR. WOOD: Well, I'm certainly
    19 going to because I want to get his answer to
    20 every question. Let's let him do it. I'll
    21 restate it.
    22 MR. DIAMOND: I would like the
    23 reporter to reread it.
    24 MR. WOOD: I'll withdraw it and
    25 restate it.


    1 MR. DIAMOND: All right.
    2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) After your book
    3 came out, sir, were you aware that
    4 Mr. Ubowski publicly denied the accuracy of
    5 the statement that he concluded Patsy Ramsey
    6 wrote the ransom note?
    7 A. No. You're telling me this for
    8 the first time.
    9 Q. Are you familiar that Mr. Ubowski
    10 stated that he had never reached the
    11 conclusion that 24 of her letters out of the
    12 26 letters of the alphabet were matched with
    13 the ransom note?
    14 A. No, I have not heard that.
    15 Q. And you stated to the contrary in
    16 your book, didn't you?
    17 A. Yeah, I stated what I was told by
    18 my detective sergeant.
    19 Q. And you weren't even, I guess,
    20 aware that Mr. Ubowski and the CBI said they
    21 don't even make that kind of analysis with
    22 respect to the 24 out of the 26 letters of
    23 the alphabet, you don't know anything about
    24 that --
    25 A. No.


    1 Q. -- in terms of the public
    2 statement by the CBI after your book was
    3 published?
    4 A. The CBI made a public statement?
    5 Q. Yes, sir.
    6 A. As an organization, I haven't seen
    7 that.
    8 MR. WOOD: I'll show it to you
    9 when we come back a little bit later on.
    10 Let's take five minutes.
    11 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    12 11:06. We're going off the record. This is
    13 the end of tape one.
    14 (Recess taken from 11:06 a.m. to
    15 11:15 a.m.)
    16 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    17 11:15. We're back on the record. This is
    18 the beginning of tape two.
    19 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I think you told
    20 me this, but I want to make sure so we don't
    21 leave here with any confusion on this point.
    22 Do you know whether the DNA of Chris Wolf
    23 was ever tested by law enforcement
    24 authorities?
    25 A. Once again, no, I don't have


    1 personal knowledge of that.
    2 Q. Thank you. Do you have any
    3 knowledge, and I'm including not personal but
    4 secondhand, but did you ever hear anything
    5 about whether his DNA was tested from anyone,
    6 doesn't have to be personal knowledge to you,
    7 did you ever get it hearsay or otherwise that
    8 his DNA had been tested?
    9 A. No, as I sit here right now,
    10 Mr. Wood, yeah, I don't have any recollection
    11 of any of -- conversation about Mr. Wolf's
    12 DNA testing.
    13 Q. And I take it from what you've
    14 told me, you would have no idea why Tom
    15 Wickman might have contacted Chris Wolf in
    16 1999 asking him at the time that Wolf lived
    17 in New Orleans, asking him to come by the
    18 Boulder Police Department on his next visit
    19 to Boulder; you would have no knowledge about
    20 that, would you?
    21 A. What was the time period?
    22 Q. 1999.
    23 A. No. No, of course not.
    24 Q. Was in fact Chris Wolf
    25 investigated in any fashion by the Boulder


    1 Police Department in connection with the
    2 murder of Susannah Chase?
    3 A. I believe so, yes.
    4 Q. Was he a suspect in this case?
    5 A. Courtesy of Jackie Dilson, I
    6 believe so.
    7 Q. And was he cleared with respect to
    8 the Susannah Chase murder?
    9 A. Again, I believe so.
    10 Q. Do you know why or on what basis
    11 he was cleared?
    12 A. No.
    13 Q. Did you ever get any hearsay from
    14 any of the detectives about what basis they
    15 relied on in clearing Chris Wolf in either
    16 the Susannah Chase murder or the JonBenet
    17 Ramsey murder?
    18 A. For some reason, and I don't know
    19 why this stands out, that Yamaguchi, the
    20 detective who led the Chase murder, I
    21 believe, I think they had DNA evidence in
    22 that case.
    23 Q. How about with the JonBenet Ramsey
    24 case, any hearsay as to what he -- the basis
    25 upon which he was allegedly cleared?


    1 A. No. If I'm answering the same
    2 question, yeah.
    3 Q. Just trying to make sure I've got
    4 your answer down. You don't -- you didn't
    5 hear from a hearsay standpoint, you didn't
    6 get anything from any of the detectives about
    7 the basis upon which he was allegedly cleared
    8 by the department, right?
    9 A. No, other than relying on
    10 Weinheimer's clearance of him.
    11 Q. The statement that he is cleared?
    12 A. Right.
    13 Q. But you don't know why --
    14 A. Right.
    15 Q. -- or any basis, right?
    16 A. That's correct.
    17 Q. Secondhand or otherwise, correct?
    18 A. Yes.
    19 Q. Now, you do know that after the
    20 Boulder Police Department had investigated
    21 Mr. Wolf, that the district attorney's office
    22 was still actively investigating an intruder
    23 theory and that Fleet White, Bill McReynolds
    24 and Chris Wolf were on the top of their
    25 suspect list. You do know that to be true,


    1 don't you, sir?
    2 A. Yes.
    3 Q. And that would have been in 1998?
    4 A. As to when the DA's office was
    5 conducting this investigation?
    6 Q. Yes.
    7 A. They were doing a lot of things
    8 we were entirely unaware of. But if you're
    9 telling me they were doing that in 1998, I
    10 won't contest it.
    11 Q. Well, what you do know is that
    12 the Boulder Police Department investigated
    13 Chris Wolf as a suspect and you know that
    14 even after the Boulder Police Department had
    15 investigated him that the Boulder district
    16 attorney's office was still investigating
    17 Chris Wolf as a suspect and that he was,
    18 along with Fleet White and Bill McReynolds,
    19 on the top of the DA's list?
    20 MR. DIAMOND: Just for
    21 clarification, after the Boulder Police
    22 Department cleared him?
    23 MR. WOOD: Yeah.
    24 A. No, I don't know that time line.
    25 Certainly the DA investigators would but there


    1 was a period in here where there -- this was
    2 not a hand-in- glove fit and there was not a
    3 lot of communication being shared.
    4 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Timing aside, we
    5 can get clear agreement that Chris Wolf was
    6 from your knowledge not only a suspect for
    7 the Boulder Police Department, but at the top
    8 of the list, along with McReynolds and Fleet
    9 White, of the suspect list of the Boulder
    10 district attorney's office in its
    11 investigation, true?
    12 A. Certainly seemed to be.
    13 Q. And that was your understanding
    14 and knowledge, right?
    15 A. That they were still interested in
    16 those parties, yes.
    17 Q. That Mr. Wolf was on the top of
    18 their suspect list, along with McReynolds and
    19 Fleet White?
    20 A. That was my impression.
    21 Q. And knowledge, I mean not just
    22 impression, you knew that as being a fact,
    23 didn't you?
    24 A. Yeah, they were still investigating
    25 those three individuals.


    1 Q. Now, what was Don Foster's -- did
    2 he give a written report to you on Chris
    3 Wolf's handwriting?
    4 A. He may have. That would be in
    5 the Boulder Police Department.
    6 Q. Did you -- do you recall ever
    7 reviewing it?
    8 A. I may or may not have. I know
    9 that we took him handwriting of several
    10 potential suspects. But no, as I sit here
    11 today, I don't recollect Mr. Foster or
    12 Dr. Foster's written report on Chris Wolf.
    13 Q. Did Don Foster examine hundreds of
    14 writing examples from people ranging from
    15 family members to Internet addicts, from
    16 neighbors to Chris Wolf to the McReynolds
    17 family and a library of books, films and
    18 videotapes?
    19 A. Yes.
    20 Q. Do you know what he concluded with
    21 respect to each of the individuals that he
    22 analyzed?
    23 A. Yeah, that they were not the
    24 author of the ransom note.
    25 Q. He eliminated everybody, Don Foster


    1 did, didn't he?
    2 A. But one, yes.
    3 Q. Right. In fact Don Foster told
    4 you that of all of the hundreds of people of
    5 the samples that he had looked at that he
    6 had conclusively eliminated everybody and that
    7 it was impossible for anyone to have written
    8 that note other than Patsy Ramsey; that's
    9 what Don Foster told you, right?
    10 A. Those are your words, not his, but
    11 I --
    12 Q. Excuse me.
    13 A. If I could finish.
    14 Q. Yeah, you sure can.
    15 A. He stated unequivocally that she
    16 was the author of the ransom note.
    17 Q. Do you, again, I'm sorry if I
    18 didn't hear you or understand you earlier,
    19 you don't know whether any search warrant was
    20 ever issued with respect to Chris Wolf, do
    21 you, firsthand knowledge or you have none and
    22 hearsay otherwise you have not heard of any
    23 search warrant?
    24 A. I know Steve Ainsworth was out
    25 there, I believe. And there was some


    1 discussion regarding that, but I don't know
    2 if he was out there by way of a search
    3 warrant or not, I would doubt it.
    4 Q. Do you know what was done with
    5 the pillow case that Jackie Dilson brought to
    6 the Boulder Police Department when you first
    7 met with her?
    8 A. Actually, she didn't come to the
    9 Boulder Police Department. We met her at a
    10 third-party location.
    11 Q. Where was that?
    12 A. The office of her attorney.
    13 Q. Did you all ever ask her to
    14 submit to any type of mental health
    15 examination?
    16 A. Jackie Dilson?
    17 Q. Yes.
    18 A. Not that I'm aware of.
    19 Q. What was your basis for concluding
    20 that she was mentally instable -- unstable?
    21 A. Ten or 11 years of police work in
    22 dealing with thousands of people, but beyond
    23 that I think the transcript of that exchange
    24 and some of what I have earlier mentioned
    25 about Third World conspiracies led me to that


    1 conclusion.
    2 Q. Do you have any formal training in
    3 psychology?
    4 A. No.
    5 Q. Do you have any formal training in
    6 psychiatry?
    7 A. No.
    8 Q. Do you have any license to conduct
    9 mental health examinations?
    10 A. No.
    11 Q. You told me that you all met at a
    12 third party's office but you didn't tell me
    13 what I wanted to know and, that is, do you
    14 know what was done with the pillow case that
    15 Jackie Dilson presented to the Boulder police
    16 when you first met with her?
    17 A. If my recollection is accurate, I
    18 believe Detective Gosage took custody and
    19 maintained that chain on that piece of
    20 aforementioned rope. But I do not know
    21 whether or not he took the pillow case.
    22 Q. And you don't know firsthand or
    23 secondhand, hearsay or otherwise if any
    24 testing was ever done on the pillow case,
    25 forensic testing; is that right?


    1 A. When you mentioned hearsay or
    2 third hand, again, it was my understanding
    3 that she delivered to the Boulder County
    4 district attorney's office and their
    5 investigators a number of items subsequent to
    6 our meeting.
    7 Q. I want to go back. I told you I
    8 would do it, let's do it now. Look at page
    9 281 of your book, please, the hardback copy.
    10 The top of the page, the first actually it
    11 starts with "Don Foster from Vassar." Do you
    12 see it?
    13 A. Yes.
    14 Q. The first paragraph there under
    15 that starts "'In my opinion, it is not
    16 possible that any individual except Patsy
    17 Ramsey wrote the ransom note.'" Have I read
    18 that correctly?
    19 A. Yes.
    20 Q. Earlier we were talking about
    21 whose words. Don Foster stated that it was
    22 impossible for anyone else to have written
    23 the note except Patsy Ramsey, true?
    24 A. This is his statement, yes, sir.
    25 Q. It was not -- and so I was


    1 accurate earlier, that he said to you it's
    2 impossible that anyone else wrote it?
    3 A. Well, when I asked about your
    4 earlier quotation, I don't think you said
    5 this verbatim. But --
    6 Q. Fine. But he did tell you it was
    7 impossible, didn't he, it was not possible,
    8 which is saying to you as a detective, it's
    9 impossible that anyone else wrote it according
    10 to Don Foster, right?
    11 A. Yes, that was the conclusion that
    12 he shared with me, Mr. Wood.
    13 Q. But when you worked with him, and
    14 you worked with him a lot, didn't you? You
    15 all spent a considerable amount of time
    16 discussing this case, didn't you, you and Don
    17 Foster?
    18 A. When you say considerable amount
    19 of time, you know, no, I didn't spend weeks
    20 or days with Don Foster, but he was an
    21 outside expert that we used in this case,
    22 yes.
    23 Q. At any time did Don Foster,
    24 himself, ever disclose to you that he had
    25 written a letter to Patsy Ramsey?


    1 A. Yeah, I became aware of that at
    2 some point.
    3 Q. After the district attorney's
    4 office presented you with the information
    5 about Jamison, true?
    6 A. I believe that's correct.
    7 Q. Did Don Foster when you were
    8 working with him for whatever period of time
    9 you spent with him, when he was giving you
    10 his conclusions about the JonBenet Ramsey case
    11 and the impossibility that anybody else wrote
    12 that note except Patsy Ramsey, did he ever
    13 look at you and say, you know, you probably
    14 ought to know, though, that I did write a
    15 letter to Patsy Ramsey where I told her that
    16 I was convinced that she was innocent? He
    17 never told you that, did he?
    18 A. We had that conversation at some
    19 point.
    20 Q. After he had already been outed by
    21 the Boulder DA, true?
    22 A. Possibly.
    23 Q. Do you think you had it before
    24 then and didn't disclose it to your police
    25 department in the presentation?


    1 A. No, that sounds reasonable.
    2 Q. You would have if you would have
    3 known it, you would have told the police
    4 department about that in the June
    5 presentation, wouldn't you, sir?
    6 A. Right.
    7 Q. Well, actually the presentation
    8 with Foster was in March, wasn't it?
    9 A. If we're talking about 1998.
    10 Q. We are.
    11 A. It was the spring of 1998.
    12 Q. Right. Now, your materials, just
    13 so that I have got this down, how many boxes
    14 were these police records and file copies of
    15 reports and things, both the ones you copied
    16 and the ones anonymously sent to you from,
    17 you believe, from someone in the Boulder
    18 Police Department, right?
    19 A. Logic would conclude that.
    20 Q. Yeah, and that was your
    21 conclusion?
    22 A. Yes.
    23 Q. And, you know, how many boxes did
    24 you store those materials in?
    25 A. One cardboard box.


    1 Q. Size?
    2 A. A file-size cardboard box, a
    3 banker's box.
    4 Q. How was it marked?
    5 A. Unmarked.
    6 Q. What color was it?
    7 A. White.
    8 Q. Did you have a concern? I mean,
    9 you've been in law enforcement for a number
    10 of years. You've got an ongoing
    11 investigation. Did you take any particular
    12 precautions to maintain the integrity of those
    13 documents?
    14 A. No.
    15 Q. Did you give them to Don Davis?
    16 A. Don Davis doesn't have -- no, he
    17 doesn't have that box or any of those
    18 records.
    19 Q. Did he look at them?
    20 A. Are you talking about the
    21 preparation of the book?
    22 Q. I'm talking about the reports.
    23 Did Don Davis ever see the reports --
    24 A. He may have.
    25 Q. -- and the copies of the file


    1 that you made?
    2 A. He may have.
    3 Q. Have you ever made any effort to
    4 find them?
    5 A. No.
    6 Q. When did you learn that they were
    7 lost?
    8 MR. DIAMOND: He didn't say ever
    9 they were lost.
    10 MR. WOOD: I'm sorry?
    11 MR. DIAMOND: He never testified
    12 that they were lost.
    13 MR. WOOD: Misplaced or lost.
    14 Can we agree one of the two things occurred?
    15 I always kind of figured lost means
    16 misplaced, too. When you've lost something,
    17 you've lost it. It doesn't imply
    18 intentionally. Although, one might draw their
    19 own conclusion.
    20 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) The point is when
    21 did you -- if you -- you've made no effort
    22 to look for them. When did you first learn
    23 that the file box was either lost or
    24 misplaced and couldn't be found?
    25 A. The last time I recall looking in


    1 that box was at some point in the weeks
    2 prior to the book coming out.
    3 Q. I'm not asking you the last time
    4 you looked at it. I'm asking you when you
    5 first learned that you couldn't find it. You
    6 came here today under oath and told me --
    7 A. I haven't been looking for it,
    8 Mr. Wood.
    9 Q. Because you've told me under oath,
    10 sir, that you can't find it, haven't you?
    11 MR. DIAMOND: I don't think he
    12 has. I don't think he's ever testified to
    13 that. Why don't you ask him that.
    14 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Didn't you tell me
    15 where -- do you know where it is?
    16 A. No.
    17 Q. Have you made any effort to look
    18 for it in recent months?
    19 A. No.
    20 Q. You didn't think that, you know,
    21 Lin Wood is going to examine me on the
    22 Ramsey investigation, I ought to try to read
    23 over some of my reports and remember some
    24 things so I'm up to speed; you didn't ever
    25 have that thought as you came into this


    1 deposition?
    2 A. No, I'm here to answer your
    3 questions today.
    4 Q. But why would you not want to
    5 refresh your recollection about the
    6 investigation when you know I'm going to be
    7 asking you about it and you knew that?
    8 A. I did. As I told you earlier, I
    9 reread my book.
    10 Q. But your -- all these reports and
    11 all these copies of police reports, there is
    12 a lot more information there than what is in
    13 your book, isn't there, sir?
    14 A. There may be, yeah. The book is
    15 not a police report, it's a narrative.
    16 Q. No, then it's not complete. It
    17 certainly is not as complete as the hundreds
    18 of pages of police files, reports and copies
    19 of reports that you have had at least at
    20 some point in time in your possession, is it?
    21 A. It's not a reproduction of the
    22 30,000 plus page case file, no. That's
    23 ridiculous. No.
    24 Q. It's not a reproduction of the
    25 hundreds of pages that you had in your


    1 possession, is my question, is it, sir?
    2 A. No.
    3 Q. I mean, if we want to find out
    4 what information you know about this
    5 investigation from the police reports, we
    6 can't get an answer to that from reading the
    7 book. We would have to look at all the
    8 files and the reports that you had, wouldn't
    9 we?
    10 A. I'm here to answer your questions
    11 today.
    12 Q. Answer that one for me. If I
    13 want to try to find out what information you
    14 had known or what you knew about this
    15 investigation from all these hundreds of
    16 police reports that you copied or that were
    17 sent to you, I can't get that answer from
    18 your book. I can only get that answer if I
    19 can look at those files and reports, true?
    20 A. Okay.
    21 Q. Is that true?
    22 A. Sure.
    23 Q. Do you know Jeff Shapiro?
    24 A. I did, so I guess in present
    25 tense I do if I knew him at one time.


    1 Q. Do you know of Mr. Shapiro's
    2 documentation of telephone conversations by
    3 taping them?
    4 A. In a particular context I do.
    5 Q. Do you have any knowledge,
    6 recollection of telephone conversations between
    7 you and Jeff Shapiro when you were in
    8 Quantico, Virginia preparing to meet with the
    9 FBI? Did you talk with Mr. Shapiro during
    10 that time period?
    11 A. I did.
    12 Q. Do you have any notes about those
    13 conversations?
    14 A. No.
    15 Q. Do you have any recollection of
    16 the substance of those conversations?
    17 A. Vaguely.
    18 Q. You did, in fact, provide
    19 information to Ann Bardach at Vanity Fair
    20 about the JonBenet Ramsey investigation,
    21 didn't you, sir?
    22 A. I did.
    23 Q. You also provided information about
    24 the JonBenet Ramsey investigation to Carol
    25 McKinley, didn't you, sir?


    1 A. We discussed the politics of the
    2 investigation. I consider Carol a friend
    3 now.
    4 Q. While you were still on the force
    5 active in the investigation, you provided
    6 information about it to Ann Bardach at Vanity
    7 Fair, you discussed it with Carol McKinley
    8 and you also provided it to the supermarket
    9 tabloid The Globe through Jeff Shapiro, true?
    10 A. No, I disagree with your
    11 characterization of whatever you're trying to
    12 say about Shapiro. I wasn't supplying him
    13 with information about --
    14 Q. You didn't --
    15 A. -- the case.
    16 Q. You didn't tell Jeff Shapiro to
    17 come get in a tree at the Ramsey house
    18 because you were all going over there and
    19 sleep there one night?
    20 A. I think the tree was his own
    21 doing but I did mention to him that we were
    22 going to be at the Ramsey house, yes.
    23 Q. Well, we'll go into Mr. Shapiro
    24 and that a little bit later.
    25 MR. WOOD: Darnay?


    1 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.
    2 MR. WOOD: Give me two seconds.
    3 MR. HOFFMAN: Should I start?
    4 MR. DIAMOND: In two seconds.
    5 MR. WOOD: Darnay?
    6 MR. HOFFMAN: Yes.
    7 MR. WOOD: I'm going to turn it
    8 over to you and you have at it.
    9 MR. HOFFMAN: Thank you very much,
    10 Mr. Wood.
    11 MR. WOOD: Where are we on time
    12 so that I know what I did? I might have
    13 gone over five minutes longer than I meant
    14 to.
    16 MR. WOOD: Total time of
    17 testimony.
    18 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Two hours and
    19 ten minutes.
    20 MR. WOOD: Two hours and ten
    21 minutes. Thank you.
    24 Q. Hello, Mr. Thomas.
    25 A. Hello, Mr. Hoffman. How are you?


    1 Q. Fine. How are you?
    2 A. Fine. Thank you.
    3 Q. Can you hear me all right?
    4 A. I can.
    5 Q. All right. Mr. Thomas, you have
    6 a copy of your hardcover book with you, don't
    7 you?
    8 A. Yes, sir.
    9 Q. All right. Could you just turn
    10 to page 14 of your book?
    11 A. Okay.
    12 Q. Yes, do you see the first full
    13 paragraph on page 14 that begins "The
    14 district attorney"?
    15 A. Yes, sir.
    16 Q. Could you just read the first
    17 sentence out loud, please?
    18 A. Certainly. "The district attorney
    19 and his top prosecutor, two police chiefs and
    20 a large number of cops, although so at odds
    21 on some points that they almost came to
    22 blows, all agreed on one thing - that
    23 probable cause existed to arrest Patsy Ramsey
    24 in connection with the death of her
    25 daughter."


    1 Q. Is that an accurate statement?
    2 A. Yes, sir.
    3 Q. Now, I would like to ask you some
    4 questions with respect to that statement. To
    5 begin with, if you wouldn't mind, regarding
    6 one of the two police chiefs, could you turn
    7 to page 299 of your book?
    8 A. Okay.
    9 Q. Yes. The second paragraph on 299
    10 begins "Even after DeMuth's recital of our
    11 shortcomings," could you just read those two
    12 sentences?
    13 A. "Even after DeMuth's recital of
    14 our shortcomings I felt we held a decent
    15 hand. Commander Beckner told me later that
    16 he thought we had gone far beyond showing
    17 probable cause."
    18 Q. Would you read the next sentence?
    19 A. Certainly. "'I think she (Patty
    20 Ramsey) did it,' he said. 'We should just
    21 charge them both with felony murder and
    22 aiding and abetting'".
    23 Q. Is that an accurate statement of
    24 what you heard?
    25 A. Yes, it is.


    1 Q. Did Mr. -- actually Commander
    2 Beckner tell you that personally?
    3 A. On more than one occasion.
    4 Q. Could you please explain or
    5 elaborate a little further on each occasion
    6 how that statement came about?
    7 A. Certainly. Inside the police
    8 department situation room that housed this
    9 Ramsey investigation, there were probably a
    10 handful of occasions on which or in which
    11 Mark Beckner made statements like that or
    12 similar to that indicating that we had
    13 sufficient facts and circumstances rising to a
    14 level of probable cause for an arrest of
    15 Patsy Ramsey.
    16 Q. Do you know approximately how many
    17 times -- on how many occasions he made that
    18 statement?
    19 MR. WOOD: Wait, let me ask you a
    20 question if I could, Darnay, for
    21 clarification. Are you asking him for -- I'm
    22 sorry, I have to get my mike on. Are you
    23 asking him for the statement that Patsy
    24 Ramsey was a killer or for the statement that
    25 there was probable cause for an arrest, which


    1 is --
    2 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm asking for the
    3 statement that is actually in the book which
    4 is that there is probable cause for an
    5 arrest.
    6 MR. WOOD: Okay. All right.
    7 That's what I wanted to clarify. Thank you.
    8 A. Mr. Hoffman, could you repeat your
    9 question to me?
    10 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) I'm sorry, can
    11 you tell me approximately how many, the
    12 number, how many times or how many occasions
    13 he made that statement?
    14 A. As I may have mentioned, a handful
    15 that I overheard. There was no disputing
    16 that among the detective team. He may have
    17 said that outside of my presence. In fact,
    18 I think he -- I think he did in relation to
    19 what we're talking about.
    20 Q. But within your own presence, how
    21 many times do you think approximately he said
    22 that?
    23 MR. WOOD: Again, talking about
    24 there is probable cause for an arrest?
    25 MR. HOFFMAN: Probable cause for


    1 an arrest, that statement.
    2 MR. WOOD: Thank you.
    3 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) The gist of
    4 that statement that there was probable cause
    5 for an arrest?
    6 A. A half a dozen times.
    7 Q. Half a dozen times. Did on any
    8 of those occasions, did he explain why he
    9 felt there was probable cause for an arrest?
    10 A. Mr. Hoffman, at that time I think
    11 he was sufficiently familiar with the facts
    12 of the investigation to make that conclusion
    13 on his own as did, as you previously
    14 mentioned, the other detectives in the case.
    15 Q. All right. Do you know if the
    16 prior commander, Commander John Eller, ever
    17 commented on who he thought may have in fact
    18 either written the ransom note or committed
    19 the crime of murdering JonBenet Ramsey?
    20 MR. WOOD: Do you want him to
    21 answer two questions? Why don't you ask him
    22 one at a time.
    23 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Okay. Was
    24 there ever an occasion when John Eller
    25 expressed an opinion as to whether or not


    1 there was probable cause to arrest someone
    2 for the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?
    3 A. Yeah. And, Mr. Hoffman, if you
    4 can direct me back to the first page you
    5 asked about.
    6 MR. DIAMOND: Fourteen.
    7 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Page 14.
    8 A. Yeah. Eller was one of those
    9 commanders that I think I -- I'm sorry, I
    10 didn't define it as a commander but Eller was
    11 certainly one of the large number of cops, as
    12 noted on page 14.
    13 Q. You said there are two police
    14 chiefs. Now, I believe that Commander
    15 Beckner replaced Commander Koby; is that
    16 correct?
    17 A. Commander Beckner did indeed
    18 replace Chief Koby.
    19 Q. All right. Now, was Chief Koby
    20 one of the police chiefs you're referring to?
    21 A. Yes.
    22 Q. Did Chief Koby ever express an
    23 opinion as to whether or not probable cause
    24 existed for someone to be arrested for the
    25 murder of JonBenet Ramsey?


    1 A. He did; he's one of the two
    2 police chiefs I'm referring to in this
    3 paragraph.
    4 Q. Do you know the substance of his
    5 statement; did he ever make a statement like
    6 that in your presence?
    7 A. He may have but it was certainly
    8 relayed down through the chain of command
    9 through Wickman to the rest of us that Koby
    10 concurred and Koby may have very well told me
    11 that himself as well.
    12 Q. But you presently don't have any
    13 memory of him saying it to you personally; is
    14 that correct?
    15 A. Koby?
    16 Q. Yes.
    17 A. Koby was present in briefings when
    18 probable cause was discussed and Koby was in
    19 total agreement. So, yeah, I do have a
    20 recollection of Koby being present and
    21 agreeing with that concept.
    22 Q. Did commander or Chief Koby ever
    23 indicate who it was that he believed there
    24 was sufficient probable cause to arrest for
    25 the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?


    1 A. Yes, the discussion was concerning
    2 Patricia Ramsey.
    3 Q. And did he express a belief that
    4 Patricia Ramsey should be arrested for the
    5 murder of JonBenet Ramsey?
    6 A. I don't know if Koby ever went so
    7 far as allowing for an arrest to be made but
    8 certainly concurring on probable cause.
    9 Q. Actually what I'm trying to
    10 determine is whether or not he ever actually
    11 expressed the belief that Patsy Ramsey should
    12 be arrested based on probable cause for the
    13 murder of her daughter?
    14 A. My distinction would be not should
    15 be but could be. Koby was not entirely an
    16 over-aggressive individual that was willing to
    17 take that next step.
    18 Q. But Commander Koby, based on the
    19 evidence that you believe existed in the
    20 case, felt that there was sufficient basis by
    21 which Patsy Ramsey could be arrested for the
    22 murder of JonBenet Ramsey?
    23 A. Correct.
    24 Q. Thank you. All right. Now, you
    25 also -- I also asked about John Eller, who I


    1 know is technically not a police chief, he
    2 was in charge of the investigation. Did John
    3 Eller ever express a belief or an opinion
    4 that probable cause existed for the arrest of
    5 someone for the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?
    6 A. Yes.
    7 Q. Can you tell me who that person
    8 was that he thought should or could be
    9 arrested -- actually I am going to rephrase
    10 that. Withdraw the question.
    11 Did he ever name an individual
    12 that he thought could be arrested for
    13 probable cause in the murder of JonBenet
    14 Ramsey?
    15 A. Patricia Ramsey.
    16 Q. Did he ever express that to you
    17 personally?
    18 A. Yes.
    19 Q. On more than one occasion?
    20 A. Yes.
    21 Q. Did he ever discuss why he thought
    22 probable cause existed for the arrest of
    23 Patricia Ramsey for the murder of JonBenet
    24 Ramsey?
    25 A. My belief that he, too, was


    1 sufficiently familiar with the facts and
    2 circumstances that were sufficient to meet a
    3 threshold of probable cause and said that on
    4 occasion in the detective briefings that
    5 spring of '97.
    6 Q. Now, with respect to the district
    7 attorney, again I'm referring you back to
    8 page 14, you begin by saying "The district
    9 attorney and his top prosecutor." Who was
    10 the top prosecutor you were referring to?
    11 A. Pete Hofstrom.
    12 Q. Is it your testimony that Pete
    13 Hofstrom believed that probable cause existed
    14 for an arrest?
    15 A. Yeah, absolutely. He conceded
    16 that there was probable cause but there were
    17 some sticking points beyond that. But as to
    18 the issue of probable cause, yeah, that was
    19 his express conversation with me that we had
    20 met that burden.
    21 Q. So you actually had a conversation
    22 with Pete Hofstrom with respect to the issue
    23 of whether probable cause existed?
    24 A. Several times.
    25 Q. And did he identify the person who


    1 he thought could be arrested for probable
    2 cause for the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?
    3 A. We were talking about it in
    4 connection with Patricia Ramsey. So I'm
    5 assuming he was -- it was just a two-person
    6 conversation at times. So yes.
    7 Q. Do you know whether or not the
    8 district attorney, Alex Hunter, ever expressed
    9 an opinion as to whether or not probable
    10 cause existed for the arrest of someone in
    11 the murder of JonBenet Ramsey?
    12 A. I'm told he did.
    13 Q. So you, in fact, never heard Alex
    14 Hunter express an opinion with respect to
    15 that?
    16 A. Only through, for example, Mark
    17 Beckner and Tom Wickman.
    18 Q. Exactly what did Mark Beckner say
    19 with respect to his understanding of what
    20 Alex Hunter said regarding the issue of
    21 probable cause?
    22 A. Very simply relaying to the
    23 detective team that Hunter was aware and knew
    24 and conceded that fact.
    25 Q. Conceded what fact?


    1 A. The fact that probable cause
    2 existed for an arrest in this case.
    3 Q. Did -- do you know if Alex Hunter
    4 ever identified the person as being the
    5 person for which sufficient probable cause
    6 existed for an arrest in the murder of
    7 JonBenet Ramsey?
    8 A. In the context of which it was
    9 being presented that's what we were talking
    10 about was the possible arrest of Patsy
    11 Ramsey.
    12 Q. I would like you to look at page
    13 327 of your book, if you don't mind, please.
    14 And I refer you, when you found that page,
    15 to the very last paragraph at the end of the
    16 page, beginning "Alex Hunter." If you would
    17 just read that sentence, that one sentence.
    18 A. "Alex Hunter said he thought Patsy
    19 Ramsey was involved."
    20 Q. Okay. Did he actually -- did you
    21 actually hear him say that?
    22 MR. WOOD: Hey, Darnay?
    23 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm sorry, yes?
    24 MR. WOOD: Can I ask you to put
    25 that sentence in context by having him


    1 complete the reading of the next couple
    2 sentences.
    3 MR. HOFFMAN: Sure, I'm sorry.
    4 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Yes, would you,
    5 please, just --
    6 MR. HOFFMAN: How many more
    7 sentences do you want him to read, Lin?
    8 MR. WOOD: Just the next one.
    9 The next two.
    10 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) All right.
    11 Read the next one, please, Mr. Thomas.
    12 MR. WOOD: Start from "Alex
    13 Hunter" and read down, if you would, through
    14 "demeanor."
    15 A. "Alex Hunter said that he thought
    16 Patsy Ramsey was involved. That was more
    17 than offset by comments from his staff."
    18 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) All right.
    19 Were you present when Alex Hunter said that?
    20 A. Yes.
    21 Q. You were. So you actually had an
    22 occasion to hear Alex Hunter express a belief
    23 with respect to Patsy Ramsey's involvement in
    24 the case?
    25 A. Yes.


    1 Q. Do you know when that event was,
    2 when this statement was made?
    3 A. May I look at the book for a
    4 moment and maybe it will --
    5 Q. I have no problem with that.
    6 A. Okay.
    7 MR. HOFFMAN: I would just like
    8 the record to reflect that Mr. Thomas is, in
    9 fact, refreshing his memory with respect to
    10 my question by looking at the book.
    11 MR. WOOD: If I can help, it
    12 looks to me in context that would have been
    13 on one of the evenings in June of 1998
    14 following the interrogations. I don't know
    15 if Mr. Thomas agrees with that or not.
    16 MR. DIAMOND: Who is testifying
    17 here?
    18 MR. WOOD: I was trying to move
    19 it along. I would be glad to testify if you
    20 want to examine me on another occasion,
    21 Mr. Diamond.
    22 MR. DIAMOND: All right.
    23 A. Mr. Hoffman, this was June of
    24 1998.
    25 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) June of 1998.


    1 So you were actually present and heard him
    2 make a statement to that effect; is that
    3 correct?
    4 A. Yes.
    5 Q. Now, do you have any knowledge as
    6 to whether or not the FBI ever had an
    7 opinion with respect to whether probable cause
    8 existed for the arrest of someone for the
    9 murder of JonBenet Ramsey?
    10 A. It was my impression and they were
    11 very professional in our dealings with them,
    12 but I don't think they ever countered or
    13 challenged the fact that the police department
    14 had this sufficient probable cause.
    15 Q. Do you know whether or not the
    16 FBI actually saw the evidence that the police
    17 had with respect to whether or not there was
    18 probable cause to charge someone for the
    19 murder of JonBenet Ramsey?
    20 A. Well, certainly a lot of the facts
    21 and the evidence, the factual evidence, from
    22 this case was shared with members of the FBI.
    23 Q. Did you ever have occasion to
    24 speak with any of the members of the FBI
    25 that were looking at the evidence?


    1 A. Yeah, on several occasions. And
    2 again, I think they always tempered comments
    3 and were most professional. But, again, I,
    4 Mr. Hoffman, don't have that specific
    5 recollection of an exchange but it was always
    6 my impression that they supported us fully on
    7 that.
    8 Q. Do you know whether or not the
    9 FBI had occasion to examine the ransom note
    10 and handwriting exemplars of either John or
    11 Patsy Ramsey?
    12 A. I don't know whether or not the
    13 FBI conducted any examinations of handwriting
    14 exemplars, but they certainly reviewed and
    15 studied and discussed with us the ransom note
    16 itself.
    17 Q. Did they offer any insight or any
    18 analysis of the ransom note?
    19 A. They did.
    20 Q. Do you remember what that analysis
    21 consisted of?
    22 A. We had a meeting in Quantico,
    23 Virginia and I'm trying to recollect the
    24 date. It doesn't come to me right now. But
    25 nonetheless, the ransom note was dissected and



  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member


    1 profiled and so forth. And certainly I would
    2 suggest that you ask any of them. But it's
    3 my recollection of that meeting, of which
    4 reports were written and, you know, there is
    5 a lot of information about what went on in
    6 those meetings, but how patently bogus and
    7 crafted and stilted and just non authentic
    8 this ransom note was.
    9 Q. I would like you to turn, if you
    10 will, please, to page 312 of your book.
    11 A. Okay.
    12 Q. And I would like you to look at
    13 what looks like to be the third sentence.
    14 It begins "'What's going on in that DA's
    15 office.'" If you would read that paragraph
    16 -- to the end of that paragraph and then
    17 read the next paragraph.
    18 A. Okay. "'What's going on in that
    19 DA's office is a disgrace' one of the FBI
    20 agents observed during our last supper. This
    21 case has become an embarrassment to law
    22 enforcement. We were all in agreement. 'It
    23 is terribly discouraging how the DA is
    24 handling this,' said one Dream Team attorney,
    25 'Hunter is going to outsmart himself on this


    1 one.'"
    2 Q. Did you actually hear that
    3 statement made.
    4 A. Which statement is that?
    5 Q. The quote from the FBI agent,
    6 what's going on is a disgrace?
    7 A. Yes.
    8 Q. Just everything that you read
    9 there you have in quotations --
    10 A. Yes.
    11 Q. -- were you actually present at
    12 that?
    13 A. I was.
    14 Q. Yes. And is that an accurate
    15 recollection of what was said?
    16 A. Yes.
    17 Q. Do you know what they were
    18 referring to when they said that what was
    19 going on in the DA's office is a disgrace?
    20 A. They were certainly familiar with
    21 a lot of the history and the animosity and,
    22 you know, the ugly politics involved in this
    23 thing and I don't know to what disgrace
    24 they're specifically referring to but I think
    25 it can cover a number of things.


    1 Q. Do you know what they were
    2 referring to when they say, quote, Hunter is
    3 going to outsmart himself on this one,
    4 unquote?
    5 MR. DIAMOND: That was a Dream
    6 Team attorney, not the FBI.
    7 MR. WOOD: Hey, Darnay, why --
    8 MR. HOFFMAN: You're right, that's
    9 correct, okay, I'm sorry.
    10 MR. WOOD: Darnay, would it be --
    11 MR. HOFFMAN: I admit that and
    12 I'm just going to double back a little bit.
    13 Lin, what were you going to say?
    14 MR. WOOD: I was going to say
    15 maybe it would be helpful to figure out which
    16 is which if we -- if you want to ask him
    17 who the FBI agent was and who the Dream Team
    18 attorney was.
    19 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah, Lin, I was
    20 about to get to that.
    21 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) In fact why
    22 don't I just do that, ask you who the FBI
    23 agent was, if you remember?
    24 A. There were at least three agents
    25 at that dinner and it may have been Mike


    1 Morrow.
    2 Q. Do you know what, is it Mike
    3 Morrow?
    4 A. Um-hum.
    5 Q. What his function was with the
    6 FBI? I mean what exactly was his involvement
    7 in the case?
    8 A. He was or is a special agent with
    9 the Federal Bureau based out of, I think
    10 they're based out of Quantico or that
    11 Virginia-DC area and he was assigned to that
    12 child abduction and serial killer unit.
    13 Q. Did he ever express an opinion as
    14 to who he thought committed this crime?
    15 A. Again, I think they were very
    16 diplomatic in their response, but I don't
    17 recall that specific conversation with
    18 Mr. Morrow. But it certainly wouldn't
    19 surprise me for him to say he was consistent
    20 with everyone else.
    21 Q. Okay. So but you have no
    22 personal knowledge of that?
    23 A. Right.
    24 Q. Okay. Now, to the second
    25 paragraph and, please, excuse me, I'm sorry


    1 for having you read that in a way that could
    2 confuse people. That second paragraph says
    3 "'It is terribly discouraging how the D A is
    4 handling this,' said one Dream Team attorney.
    5 Hunter is going to outsmart himself on this
    6 one.'" Who was the Dream Team attorney who
    7 made that statement, if you remember?
    8 A. I believe that was Bob Miller.
    9 Q. Was Bob Miller at this meeting
    10 where the prior statement by the FBI agent
    11 was made which we have just referred to?
    12 A. There were several people in this
    13 restaurant this particular evening. So I
    14 don't know whether or not he heard, overheard
    15 that conversation.
    16 Q. Right. So his statement then may
    17 not have been in reaction to the FBI
    18 statement; is that correct?
    19 A. Right.
    20 Q. And do you know what he meant
    21 when he said that Hunter is going to outsmart
    22 himself on this one?
    23 A. No. I think there are a number
    24 of ways to interpret it but it sort of
    25 stands alone in my mind.


    1 Q. Mr. Thomas, would you mind,
    2 please, turning to page 302 of your book.
    3 A. Okay.
    4 Q. Do you have it in front of you?
    5 A. Yes, I'm sorry, yes.
    6 Q. Fine. Would you look at the
    7 third paragraph from the top, which begins
    8 "Two days before we were to go onstage."
    9 And would you read that whole paragraph,
    10 please.
    11 A. Certainly. "Two days before we
    12 were to go onstage, we got some surprising
    13 big news when the Colorado Bureau of
    14 Investigation lab told us that the acrylic
    15 fibers found on the duct tape that covered
    16 JonBenet's mouth were a quote, likely match,
    17 for Patsy's blazer. We were ready."
    18 Q. You've been asked earlier with
    19 respect to the forensic, you know, not
    20 importance, but the forensic views that the
    21 ransom note was being made for. Did this
    22 become an important piece of forensic evidence
    23 in the case?
    24 MR. WOOD: You're talking about
    25 the ransom note now or the likely match of


    1 four fibers?
    2 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm sorry, thank
    3 you, Lin.
    4 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Did the fibers
    5 that were found on the duct tape that were
    6 covering JonBenet's mouth that were, quote, a
    7 likely match for Patsy's blazer, did that
    8 become an important piece of forensic evidence
    9 in the investigation?
    10 A. Yes, sir.
    11 Q. Do you know when or at what point
    12 in the case the CBI made that report?
    13 A. I think it was sometime before we
    14 were told -- I think that information may
    15 have been held by Wickman and Trujillo and
    16 Beckner possibly.
    17 Q. Do you know whether or not that
    18 information was actually part of anyone's
    19 presentation before the district attorney that
    20 was made prior to the convening of a grand
    21 jury when you turned the case over to the
    22 district attorney?
    23 A. Mr. Hoffman, are you asking me --
    24 I'm sorry, that's not clear to me.
    25 Q. All right. That CBI report, did


    1 you receive it before you made your formal
    2 presentation to the district attorney's
    3 office? That's a presentation that was made
    4 prior to the convening of the grand jury. I
    5 believe it was in May or June of 1998 when
    6 you formally turned over the case to the
    7 district attorney. I may have that date
    8 wrong.
    9 MR. WOOD: Hey, Darnay, I'm just
    10 a little unclear if you don't mind.
    11 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah.
    12 MR. WOOD: There were two
    13 presentations, one was made by Trip DeMuth I
    14 believe in May and then there was what we
    15 call a VIP presentation that was made of a
    16 lot of people other than the DA's office in
    17 June. Those are the two presentations. I'm
    18 not sure which one you are referring to.
    19 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, thank you.
    20 It is confusing, there is no question about
    21 it.
    22 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) The presentation
    23 that most people, and myself included, think
    24 of is that large presentation where you stood
    25 up and you gave evidence yourself. That's


    1 the one where you refer to Alex Hunter is
    2 talking on a cell phone and it sort of -- it
    3 seems at the end of that you decided that
    4 you had had enough of the case and you were
    5 going to move on. That's the presentation
    6 I'm talking about.
    7 MR. HOFFMAN: I'm assuming -- is
    8 that the VIP presentation, Lin?
    9 MR. WOOD: I don't know. I mean,
    10 Steve Thomas would have to figure out whether
    11 that's an accurate statement about whether he
    12 heard, saw, or thought or felt. I'm not
    13 sure.
    14 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Well, you know
    15 what, I'm just confusing the issue. I'm
    16 going to drop that line of questioning and
    17 just ask you, did you have occasion to
    18 actually see the CBI report that indicated
    19 that there was a likely match for Patsy's
    20 blazer with the acrylic fiber found on the
    21 duct tape?
    22 A. Not that I recall. Detective
    23 Trujillo, who was in charge of all the
    24 evidence and forensic testing in this case,
    25 he and Wickman verbally offered that to the


    1 rest of the detective team.
    2 Q. All right. So you never
    3 personally saw a report with that result or
    4 that conclusion?
    5 A. I'm relying on a fellow officer.
    6 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not
    7 there was ever any evidence that you saw or
    8 you heard about in the course of the
    9 investigation while you were still with the
    10 Boulder police force showing whether or not
    11 any fibers from either Patsy's clothing or
    12 from her boots or from any part of her was
    13 found in JonBenet's panties?
    14 MR. WOOD: That's about three or
    15 four questions, Darnay.
    16 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Do you know
    17 whether or not there was ever any evidence,
    18 forensic evidence, showing that any article of
    19 clothing could be matched to a substance
    20 found in JonBenet's diaper or panties?
    21 MR. WOOD: I have to just comment
    22 that I don't believe there was any evidence
    23 that JonBenet was wearing a diaper.
    24 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) All right. To
    25 her panties?


    1 A. If I understand the question
    2 correctly, and now just rephrase it so I'm
    3 answering the right question or --
    4 Q. Yeah, when JonBenet Ramsey was
    5 found she was wearing I don't know what other
    6 word there is for it but panties and there
    7 was a question as to whether or not there
    8 were substances found in that panty area.
    9 What I'm asking you is do you know if there
    10 was ever any forensic evidence indicating that
    11 any article of clothing that Patsy wore was
    12 found as a particle in that panty area of
    13 JonBenet?
    14 A. No, I am unaware of any forensic
    15 or fiber evidence from Patsy Ramsey's clothing
    16 to the victim's under clothing or underwear.
    17 Q. Do you know if there was any
    18 forensic evidence of Patsy Ramsey's clothing
    19 at all besides the duct tape area on
    20 JonBenet?
    21 A. As we sit here now, no, I don't
    22 recollect any other fiber evidence, other than
    23 what we have discussed linking the mother to
    24 JonBenet.
    25 Q. With respect to what you have


    1 referred to as a master affidavit, could you
    2 please describe what a master affidavit is?
    3 A. Certainly. At some point in, I
    4 believe it was 1997, the police department
    5 asked me to be the affiant on a master
    6 affidavit and basically the case was reaching
    7 a proportion that it needed to be condensed
    8 into affidavit form in the event a search
    9 and/or arrest warrant were necessary to carry
    10 out on this case.
    11 And given that assignment I tried
    12 then over the course of the next several,
    13 many months to keep that affidavit current.
    14 Q. When you say keep the affidavit
    15 current, how was the affidavit prepared or
    16 being prepared?
    17 A. It was being prepared as new
    18 information became available that was relevant
    19 to include inside this affidavit, that
    20 information would be shared with me and I
    21 would include that in the narrative.
    22 Q. Now, when you say include that in
    23 the narrative, were you preparing an ongoing
    24 written narrative at the time?
    25 A. Yes.


    1 Q. And where did you keep a copy of
    2 this ongoing written narrative?
    3 A. Either in my briefcase or in my
    4 desk inside the Boulder Police Department
    5 situation room were typically the only two
    6 places that the -- that the affidavit would
    7 be left.
    8 Q. Could you describe what form it
    9 was being kept in? By example, was it kept
    10 in a notebook? Was it kept on separate
    11 sheets of paper? How was it kept physically?
    12 A. Eight and a half by 11 white,
    13 unbound paper, typically stapled with a
    14 heavy-duty stapler in the upper left-hand
    15 corner.
    16 Q. And where were those pages being
    17 kept physically, in a file folder? In a
    18 book? What?
    19 A. In my briefcase or my desk. But
    20 if you're saying how were those stored?
    21 Yeah, inside a manila-type folder.
    22 Q. Was the folder labeled master
    23 affidavit?
    24 A. I don't recall.
    25 Q. Was there any marking on the


    1 folder as to what it was that was being
    2 contained there?
    3 A. No, but it's very apparent what it
    4 is if you go looking for it.
    5 Q. Do you know how long you kept
    6 that master affidavit before it was
    7 discontinued?
    8 A. If memory serves, in the spring of
    9 1998 when Beckner said that we weren't going
    10 to make a physical custodial arrest and that
    11 the case was headed for the DA's office and
    12 possibly a grand jury, that was ceased.
    13 Q. Did Mark Beckner or anyone else
    14 tell you what you should do with the master
    15 affidavit that you had in your possession?
    16 A. Not that I recall. That would
    17 have been -- no, not that I recall; I don't
    18 recall any instruction like that. It would
    19 have and likely and probably did just simply
    20 wind up in the at the time 80-plus case file
    21 notebooks in that room.
    22 Q. So you turned the affidavit over
    23 at some point to the police --
    24 A. Yeah.
    25 Q. -- to the other people in the


    1 police department?
    2 A. Right, that's in -- that's inside
    3 the police department.
    4 Q. Okay. Do you know if you made a
    5 copy of that for your own use?
    6 A. I don't know that I did.
    7 Q. Okay. Do you know how many pages
    8 the master affidavit was when you were told
    9 to discontinue making it?
    10 A. Well, it was continually being
    11 updated and drafted and pencil marked and
    12 everything else but I would put it at the
    13 time that I last saw it I don't know if
    14 anybody ever continued it after I left the
    15 police department, but 50, 60, 70, 80-plus
    16 pages maybe.
    17 Q. Do you know who made the decision
    18 as to what to include in the master
    19 affidavit?
    20 A. Well, I did partly, as did Tom
    21 Wickman, Mark Beckner. On occasion, you
    22 know, we would run ideas and thoughts by the
    23 in-house legal advisor, Bob Keatley. Kim
    24 Stewart had it for a period of time and I
    25 think she did some updating or amending or


    1 suggesting to it. It was sort of a
    2 continuing work in progress. And when a
    3 detective in the room had information that
    4 was relevant to the affidavit, it would
    5 typically be included.
    6 Q. Were you the only person that
    7 physically included the information or did
    8 other people have access to it?
    9 A. Well, two questions. Did other
    10 people have access to it. Yes. And was I
    11 the only one that physically made inclusions
    12 to it? Mr. Hoffman, do you mean by way of
    13 typewriting?
    14 Q. Yes, by way of actual handwritten
    15 notations or typewritten?
    16 A. Yes, that's my recollection.
    17 Q. All right. So nobody that you
    18 remember made any physical notations or
    19 changes in the master affidavit beside
    20 yourself?
    21 A. No. I'm saying others did in the
    22 room make physical changes to it, line
    23 throughs, additions, deletions, et cetera, as
    24 information, you know, became available or got
    25 stale or whatever the case might be.


    1 Q. Mr. Thomas, directing your
    2 attention now to the handwriting reports from
    3 the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, did you
    4 ever have occasion to see any of the
    5 handwriting reports that were done at all in
    6 the case by CBI?
    7 A. Yeah. What they called a report
    8 typically was more of a lab finding. It
    9 wasn't in a narrative form, as I recall, but
    10 those were in the possession of Trujillo, the
    11 forensic evidence detective, but I did have
    12 at least one occasion to look at those.
    13 Q. Can you describe what one
    14 typically looked like? Like how many pages
    15 was one of these reports?
    16 A. Fairly short, if I recall. The
    17 one that I have in mind probably ran less
    18 than four pages. On the front page was like
    19 a CBI logo or letterhead, whatever they
    20 typically manufacture their printed report on
    21 and just simply black typewritten or
    22 computer-generated ink on white paper.
    23 Q. Do you know what sort of analysis
    24 was actually done in the report of the
    25 handwriting?


    1 A. Yeah, they -- I remember the
    2 language concerning Patsy Ramsey, which was
    3 included in that report. And then many other
    4 people's or people whose handwriting had been
    5 looked at were also reported in this
    6 document.
    7 Q. Now, you say this document.
    8 Weren't there more than -- did they do
    9 separate reports for each individual's
    10 handwriting that they examined, to the best
    11 of your knowledge?
    12 A. Not that I saw.
    13 Q. So basically what was it that you
    14 saw, a single report?
    15 A. Well, as I described this report
    16 probably less than four pages in length that
    17 was very compacted with a lot of information
    18 and not typically what you think of as a --
    19 or what I think of as a police report with a
    20 narrative, but more exhibit number such and
    21 such corresponding to this, et cetera. Not
    22 -- it wasn't free-flowing narrative of any
    23 sort.
    24 Q. The report that you actually were
    25 able to physically examine, do you know how


    1 many subjects or persons were actually being
    2 discussed in that report?
    3 A. Yeah, many. Many, many, many, you
    4 know, 20, 30, 40 maybe.
    5 Q. Do you know whether or not the
    6 report drew any conclusions with respect to
    7 the authorship of the ransom note?
    8 A. Yes.
    9 Q. Could you tell me what you
    10 remember the conclusion to be?
    11 A. As I sit here today without that
    12 document in front of me, I recall language in
    13 that document that along the lines, and I'm
    14 certainly paraphrasing, that there was
    15 evidence to suggest that Patsy Ramsey was the
    16 author of the ransom note.
    17 Q. Is that the language that you
    18 remember "evidence to suggest"?
    19 A. Yes.
    20 Q. Now, with respect to your book,
    21 you make a statement in your book, I'm trying
    22 to find the page, but I'll just ask you
    23 generally, yeah, it's on page 282, in the
    24 next to the last paragraph on page 282, the
    25 paragraph that begins "Not only did certain


    1 letters change." Do you have that?
    2 A. Yes.
    3 Q. Could you read that paragraph out
    4 loud, please?
    5 A. Certainly. "Not only did certain
    6 letters change, but her entire writing style
    7 seemed to have been transformed after the
    8 homicide. There were new ways of indenting,
    9 spelling, and writing out long numbers that
    10 contrasted with her earlier examples, and she
    11 was the only suspect who altered her usual
    12 preferences when supplying writing samples to
    13 the police."
    14 Q. Now, the she in this paragraph,
    15 who is the she?
    16 A. This is referring to Patsy Ramsey.
    17 Q. All right. Now, may I ask you
    18 how you acquired the knowledge that you have
    19 in this paragraph? How do you know that in
    20 fact is what was going on in her handwriting?
    21 MR. WOOD: Let me say something I
    22 don't think that he stated that he knows that
    23 as a fact I think he's describing what Don
    24 Foster said, but I may be wrong.
    25 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. I'm just


    1 asking him how he acquired that information.
    2 MR. WOOD: Okay.
    3 A. Mr. Hoffman, surrounding or
    4 preceding this paragraph it's in relation to
    5 Mr. Foster's presentation in Boulder, if I'm
    6 not mistaken and his presentation overheads,
    7 examples, et cetera.
    8 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) All right. Do
    9 you know if anyone other than Don Foster
    10 shared that belief who was involved in the
    11 investigation?
    12 A. What belief?
    13 Q. The belief that there was an
    14 attempt by Patsy Ramsey to alter her
    15 handwriting when asked for exemplars?
    16 MR. DIAMOND: Do you mean among
    17 the expert community?
    18 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Among anybody
    19 that was investigating the case that you know
    20 of?
    21 A. I don't know if Don Foster shared
    22 any of his findings or investigation with any
    23 of the FBI people that he sometimes works
    24 with, but as far as those people in the room
    25 that day for this presentation in trying to


    1 recall what Foster presented and said and
    2 demonstrated, that was certainly where I came
    3 away with this impression.
    4 Q. Mr. Thomas, are you aware of the
    5 fact that Patsy Ramsey was asked to give what
    6 is known as request samplers to the police on
    7 more than one occasion during the
    8 investigation?
    9 A. Yes, sir.
    10 Q. Do you know how many times she
    11 was -- on how many different occasions she
    12 was asked to give request samples of her
    13 handwriting to the police?
    14 A. If my understanding is correct, I
    15 think it was five.
    16 Q. Do you know why she was asked to
    17 give five separate handwriting samples on five
    18 separate occasions?
    19 A. That was not my assignment, but
    20 given what I knew through the briefings and
    21 the detectives who were handling that
    22 assignment I could speculate as to why it
    23 became known to me.
    24 Q. Did anybody through hearsay or any
    25 other way communicate with you why they were


    1 asking Patsy Ramsey to appear on more than
    2 one occasion to give exemplars?
    3 A. Yes.
    4 Q. Could you tell me why?
    5 A. Yes. Because apparently the CBI
    6 examiner, analyst, expert, had questions or
    7 concerns about her handwriting and
    8 similarities with the note.
    9 Q. Did anybody ever express the
    10 belief that she was attempting to alter her
    11 handwriting?
    12 A. Yes, Don Foster.
    13 Q. Any other person in the
    14 investigation?
    15 A. And, again, as I sit here, from
    16 memory and without the QD examiner's reports
    17 in front of me, Mr. Hoffman, let me think
    18 for a moment. No, not that I can recall.
    19 MR. HOFFMAN: Since I'm drawing
    20 near, how is my time doing, does anybody
    21 know?
    22 MR. RAWLS: You've got 17 more
    23 minutes.
    24 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Mr. Thomas, I
    25 would just like to direct you to page 286 of


    1 your book.
    2 A. Okay.
    3 Q. All right. Now, this is a rather
    4 lengthy series of paragraphs and it runs to
    5 289 and it's basically from what I can
    6 understand your theory of how this crime was
    7 committed, who was involved in it; is that
    8 correct?
    9 A. Yes.
    10 Q. And have you had a chance to
    11 review pages 286, 87, 88 and 89 since the
    12 book was written?
    13 A. Yes.
    14 Q. Are these statements still
    15 accurate?
    16 A. Well, I don't know the current
    17 state of the evidence of what may or may not
    18 have changed or come to be known by Mike
    19 Kane and the cops. But at the time I left,
    20 this was certainly a hypothesis that I felt
    21 was consistent with the evidence that I felt
    22 was certainly reasonable.
    23 Q. Have you had any occasion to
    24 change your mind with respect to your
    25 analysis and the conclusions that you draw in


    1 these pages?
    2 A. Well, will you give me just a
    3 moment to reread quickly these three pages?
    4 MR. HOFFMAN: In fact, would
    5 anyone object if he read this out loud into
    6 the record?
    7 MR. WOOD: If you want to spend
    8 your time having him do that, Darnay, I have
    9 no objection whatsoever.
    10 MR. HOFFMAN: Well, yes, would you
    11 mind? Let's do it this way. Why don't you
    12 silently read this to yourself and then I'll
    13 ask you that question again.
    14 MR. WOOD: He might as well read
    15 it out loud because it's on the clock.
    16 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Okay. Then why
    17 don't you read it out loud. Begin with
    18 "There was no doubt in my mind that Patsy
    19 wrote the note."
    20 A. "'I believe she committed the
    21 murder' I told Smit and proceeded to lay out
    22 what I thought had happened ...
    23 "In my hypothesis, and approaching
    24 fortieth birthday, the busy holiday season, an
    25 exhausting Christmas Day, and an argument with


    1 JonBenet had left Patsy frazzled. Her
    2 beautiful daughter, whom she frequently
    3 dressed almost as a twin, had rebelled
    4 against wearing the same outfit as her
    5 mother.
    6 "When they came home, John Ramsey
    7 helped Burke put together a Christmas toy.
    8 JonBenet, who had not eaten much at the
    9 Whites' party, was hungry. Her mother let
    10 her have some pineapple, and then the kids
    11 were put to bed. John Ramsey read to his
    12 little girl. Then he went to bed. Patsy
    13 stayed up to prepare for the trip to Michigan
    14 the next morning, a trip she admittedly did
    15 not particularly want to make.
    16 "Later JonBenet awakened after
    17 wetting her bed, as indicated by the plastic
    18 sheets, the urine stains, the pull-up diaper
    19 package hanging halfway out of a cabinet, and
    20 the balled-up turtleneck found in the
    21 bathroom. I concluded that the little girl
    22 had worn the red turtleneck to bed, as her
    23 mother originally said, and that it was
    24 stripped off when it got wet.
    25 "As I told Smith, I never believed


    1 the child was sexually abused for the
    2 gratification of the offender but that the
    3 vaginal trauma was some sort of corporal
    4 punishment. The dark fibers found in her
    5 pubic region could have come from the violent
    6 wiping of a wet child. Patsy probably yanked
    7 out the diaper package in cleaning up
    8 JonBenet.
    9 "Patsy would not be the first
    10 mother to lose control in such a situation.
    11 One of the doctors we consulted cited
    12 toileting issues as a textbook example of
    13 causing a parental rage. So, in my
    14 hypothesis, there was some sort of explosive
    15 encounter in the child's bathroom sometime
    16 prior to one o'clock in the morning, the time
    17 suggested by the digestion rate of the
    18 pineapple found in the child's stomach. I
    19 believed JonBenet was slammed against a hard
    20 surface, such as the edge of a tub,
    21 inflicting a mortal head wound. She was
    22 unconscious, but her heart was still beating.
    23 Patsy would not have known that JonBenet was
    24 still alive, because the child already
    25 appeared to be dead. The massive head trauma


    1 would have eventually killed her.
    2 "It was the critical moment in
    3 which she either had to call for help or
    4 find an alternative explanation for her
    5 daughter's death. It was accidental in the
    6 sense that the situation had developed without
    7 motive or premeditation. She could have
    8 called for help but chose not to. An
    9 emergency room doctor probably would have
    10 questioned the 'accident' and called the
    11 police. Still, little would have happened to
    12 Patsy in Boulder. But I believe panic
    13 overtook her.
    14 "John and Burke continued to sleep
    15 while Patsy moved the body of JonBenet down
    16 to the basement and hid her in the little
    17 room.
    18 "As I pictured the scene, her
    19 dilemma was that the police would assume the
    20 obvious if a six- year old child was found
    21 dead in a private home without any
    22 satisfactory explanation. Patsy needed a
    23 diversion and planned the way she thought a
    24 kidnapping should look.
    25 "She returned upstairs to the


    1 kitchen and grabbed her tablet and a
    2 felt-tipped pen," and flipping "to the middle
    3 of the tablet, and started a ransom note,
    4 drafting one that ended on page 25. For
    5 some reason she discarded that one and ripped
    6 pages 17-25 from the tablet. Police never
    7 found those pages.
    8 "On page 26, she began the
    9 'Mr. and Mrs. I,' then also abandoned that
    10 false start. At some point she drafted the
    11 long ransom note. By doing so, she created
    12 the government's best piece of evidence.
    13 "She then faced the major problem
    14 of what to do with the body. Leaving the
    15 house carried the risk of John or Burke
    16 awakening at the sounds and possibly being
    17 seen by a passerby or a neighbor. Leaving
    18 the body in the distant, almost inaccessible,
    19 basement room was the best option.
    20 "As I envisioned it, Patsy
    21 returned to the basement, a woman caught up
    22 in panic, where she could have seen--perhaps
    23 by detecting a faint heartbeat or a sound or
    24 a slight movement--that although completely
    25 unconscious, JonBenet was not dead. Others


    1 might argue that Patsy did not know the child
    2 was still alive. In my hypothesis, she took
    3 the next step, looking for the closest
    4 available items in ... desperation. Only
    5 feet away was her paint tote. She grabbed a
    6 paint brush and broke it to fashion the
    7 garrote with some cord." She then -- "then
    8 she looped the cord around the girl's neck.
    9 "In my scenario, she choked
    10 JonBenet from behind, with a grip on her
    11 broken paintbrush handle, pulling the
    12 ligature. JonBenet, still unconscious, would
    13 never have felt it. There are only four
    14 ways to die: suicide, natural, accidental,
    15 or homicide. This accident, in my opinion,
    16 had just become a murder.
    17 "Then the staging continued to
    18 make it look like a kidnapping. Patsy tied
    19 the girl's wrists in front, not in" the
    20 "back, for otherwise the arms would not have
    21 been in" the "overhead position. But with a
    22 fifteen-inch length of cord between the wrists
    23 and the knot tied loosely over the clothing,
    24 there was no way such a binding would have
    25 restrained a live child. It was a symbolic


    1 act to make it appear the child had been
    2 bound.
    3 "Patsy took considerable time with
    4 her daughter, wrapping her carefully in the
    5 blanket and leaving her with a favorite pink
    6 nightgown." As "the FBI had told us ... a
    7 stranger would not have taken such care.
    8 "As I told Lou, I thought that
    9 throughout the coming hours, Patsy worked on
    10 her staging, such as placing the ransom note
    11 where she would be sure to 'find' it the
    12 next morning. She placed the tablet on the
    13 countertop right beside the stairs and" put
    14 "the pen in the cup.
    15 "While going through the drawers"
    16 and "under the countertop" -- "While going
    17 through the drawers under the countertop where
    18 the tablet had been, she found rolls of tape.
    19 She placed a strip from a roll of duct tape
    20 across JonBenet's mouth. There was bloody
    21 mucous under the tape, and a perfect set of
    22 the child's lip prints, which did not
    23 indicate a tongue impression or resistance.
    24 "I theorized that Patsy, trying to
    25 cover her tracks, took the remaining cord,


    1 tape, and the first ransom note out of the
    2 house that night, perhaps dropping them into
    3 a nearby storm sewer or among the Christmas
    4 debris in wrappings in a neighbor's trash
    5 can.
    6 "She was running out of time.
    7 The household was scheduled to wake up early
    8 to fly to Michigan, and in her haste, Patsy
    9 Ramsey did not change clothes, a vital
    10 mistake. With the clock ticking, and hearing
    11 her husband moving around upstairs, she
    12 stepped over the edge.
    13 "The way I envisioned it, Patsy
    14 screamed, and John Ramsey, coming out of the
    15 shower, responded, totally unaware of what had
    16 occurred. Burke, awakened by the noise
    17 shortly before six o'clock in the morning,
    18 came down to find out what had happened and
    19 was sent back to bed as his mother talked to
    20 the 911 emergency dispatcher.
    21 "Patsy Ramsey opened the door to
    22 Officer Rick French at about 5:55 a.m. on the
    23 morning of December 26, 1996, wearing a red
    24 turtleneck sweater and black pants, the same
    25 things she had worn to a party the night


    1 before. Her hair was done, and her makeup
    2 was on. In my opinion, she had never been
    3 to bed.
    4 "The diversion worked for seven
    5 hours as the Boulder police thought they were
    6 dealing with a kidnapping.
    7 "John Ramsey, in my hypothetical
    8 scenario, probably first grew suspicious while
    9 reading the ransom note that morning, which
    10 was why he was unusually quiet. He must
    11 have seen his wife's writing mannerisms all
    12 over it, everything but her signature. But
    13 where was his daughter?
    14 "He said in his police interview
    15 that he went down to the basement when
    16 Detective Arndt noticed him missing. I
    17 suggested that Ramsey found JonBenet at that
    18 time and was faced with the dilemma of his
    19 life. During the next few hours, his
    20 behavior changed markedly as he desperately
    21 considered his few options--submit to the
    22 authorities or try to control the situation.
    23 He had already lost one child, Beth, and now
    24 JonBenet was gone too. Now Patsy was
    25 possibly in jeopardy.


    1 "The stress increased steadily
    2 during the morning, for Patsy, in my theory,
    3 knew that no kidnapper was going to call by
    4 ten o'clock, and after John found the body,
    5 he knew that too. So when Detective Linda
    6 Arndt told him to search the house, he used
    7 the opportunity and made a beeline for the
    8 basement.
    9 "Then tormented as he might be, he
    10 chose to protect his wife. Within a few
    11 hours, the first of his many lawyers was in
    12 motion, the private investigators a day later.
    13 "That's the way I see it, I said
    14 to Lou Smit." That's how evidence -- "That's
    15 how the evidence fits to me. She made
    16 mistakes, and that's how we solve crimes,
    17 right? I reminded him of his own favorite
    18 saying: 'Murders are usually what they
    19 seem.'".
    20 Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Thomas.
    21 Now, I want to ask you, do you still agree
    22 with this analysis of the murder of JonBenet
    23 Ramsey?
    24 MR. WOOD: Are you asking him as
    25 to the state of the evidence in August of


    1 1998?
    2 MR. HOFFMAN: No, I'm asking him
    3 whether now he still agrees based on his own
    4 personal knowledge of the case whether or not
    5 he still stands by these statements.
    6 MR. WOOD: I want to make sure
    7 that we understand, Darnay, because he, as I
    8 understood it, testified that short of media
    9 reports and public statements he doesn't know
    10 anything about the state of the evidence from
    11 August of 1998 through September of 2001.
    12 And I think in fairness, we ought to make
    13 sure that we are asking him what he is
    14 standing by.
    15 MR. HOFFMAN: All right.
    16 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Do you regard
    17 the statements that you make on page 286,
    18 287, 288, 289 as being true to the best of
    19 your knowledge?
    20 MR. WOOD: We've got a conference
    21 again.
    22 THE DEPONENT: Just a second,
    23 Darnay.
    24 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah, um-hum.
    25 (Discussion off the record between


    1 the deponent and Mr. Diamond.)
    2 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Hoffman. Yeah, as
    3 I said, given what I knew when I resigned in
    4 the summer of '98, I don't know the status
    5 of the evidence now but this was a
    6 hypothetical scenario that I purported that I
    7 felt was consistent with the evidence at the
    8 time. And unless something is changed
    9 drastically or markedly, that I'm unaware of,
    10 yeah, it's still my belief that something --
    11 or let me state it this way: It's still my
    12 belief -- or I still stand behind this
    13 hypothetical scenario in that regard.
    14 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) All right.
    15 That's really all I need to know.
    16 Now, I want to ask you about the
    17 911 tape which was -- became controversial
    18 because of alleged background noise and voice,
    19 possible voice identifications. Did you ever
    20 have occasion to listen to the 911 tape
    21 analysis that was done by a lab in Los
    22 Angeles or somewhere in California purportedly
    23 to show that Burke's voice was on the back
    24 of that tape?
    25 A. Yes.


    1 MR. WOOD: He listened to the
    2 analysis?
    3 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Did you ever
    4 have occasion to hear the tape and actually
    5 hear what the people were reporting as being
    6 Burke's voice in the background?
    7 A. Not on the aerospace engineering
    8 equipment but on lesser equipment inside the
    9 Boulder Police Department, yes.
    10 Q. So it was actually audible on that
    11 equipment at the Boulder Police Department?
    12 A. No, Mr. Hoffman, let me make sure
    13 I understand you. What are you -- what was
    14 audible?
    15 Q. Burke's or the voice of someone
    16 who could have been Burke Ramsey talking in
    17 the background at the very end of Patsy
    18 Ramsey's, you know, conversation with 911.
    19 A. Well, you're cutting right to the
    20 punch line. There is a long story behind it
    21 but, yes, myself and others listened to that
    22 tape and heard this third voice.
    23 Q. So do you -- were you able to
    24 identify that third voice, you personally?
    25 A. Well, I don't have any training in


    1 voice identification, but certainly it sounded
    2 to me to be a young male voice.
    3 MR. WOOD: Are you asking him,
    4 Darnay --
    5 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Were you able
    6 to draw based on your own personal experience
    7 of hearing this tape that there was a voice
    8 of somebody who sounded like a young boy?
    9 A. Yes, that was my personal
    10 observation coming away from that.
    11 Q. Do you have any reason to believe
    12 that that voice could have been the voice of
    13 Burke Ramsey?
    14 A. That's what I believe.
    15 Q. Is it based on ever having heard
    16 Burke Ramsey speak?
    17 MR. WOOD: You're talking about
    18 just listening to the child speak, whether or
    19 not he has done a -- that's a sufficient
    20 voice exemplar for testing purposes?
    21 MR. HOFFMAN: No, no. I just
    22 want to know in the same way that you can
    23 look at handwriting for, you know, purposes
    24 of article 9 -- article 900 in the Rules of
    25 Evidence, that whether or not based on his


    1 own personal experience if he's ever heard
    2 Burke Ramsey and whether or not he thought
    3 that was Burke Ramsey based on his own
    4 knowledge of what Burke Ramsey sounded like.
    5 MR. WOOD: I understand. I'm not
    6 -- he can answer. But I'm certainly not
    7 acceding to your interpretation of rule,
    8 whatever you're talking about, article 900.
    9 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Well, I'm
    10 not asking you to accede. Actually, Lin, you
    11 don't really even have to be involved in
    12 this, so quite frankly it's my question --
    13 MR. WOOD: I will because I
    14 represent --
    15 MR. HOFFMAN: And I don't know if
    16 it's appropriate for you to always to be
    17 trying to clarify it and put your spin on
    18 it. I'm asking Mr. Thomas whether or not --
    19 MR. WOOD: Why don't you ask him
    20 a question --
    21 MR. HOFFMAN: -- he could identify
    22 the voice as being that --
    23 MR. WOOD: -- that makes some
    24 sense and I might not have to try to clarify
    25 it.


    1 MR. HOFFMAN: -- of Burke Ramsey.
    2 MR. WOOD: Why don't you just ask
    3 him a straight-up question. I want to make
    4 sure and I have a right to make sure that
    5 the record is understandable. You may not
    6 like that and I'm not trying to spin it.
    7 I'm trying to make sure we understand because
    8 candidly and respectfully some of your
    9 questions are difficult to follow which
    10 apparently --
    11 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay. Well, you
    12 know, you have that problem yourself, Lin.
    13 So and I've --
    14 MR. WOOD: I agree.
    15 MR. HOFFMAN: -- heard Mr. Diamond
    16 have to go in and ask for clarification;
    17 lawyers sometimes have that problem --
    18 MR. WOOD: I agree.
    19 MR. HOFFMAN: -- not personal to
    20 you or to me.
    21 MR. WOOD: I don't disagree with
    22 you.
    23 MR. HOFFMAN: The fact is --
    24 THE REPORTER: One at a time,
    25 please.


    1 MR. HOFFMAN: I would like to be
    2 able to ask Steve Thomas this question
    3 without your helping with the clarification of
    4 it.
    5 MR. WOOD: Well, just as long as
    6 the record -- go ahead and ask him the
    7 question. I just want to make sure that I
    8 have the right to understand what you're
    9 asking, too. But go ahead and ask him and
    10 let's get an answer.
    11 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Okay. Do you
    12 have any reason to believe that the voice was
    13 Burke Ramsey that you heard on the tape?
    14 A. Yes, that's my belief and, absent
    15 there being other parties of whom or which
    16 I'm unaware in the house that morning, this
    17 third party to me is believed to have been
    18 Burke Ramsey.
    19 Q. What do you base that belief
    20 on --
    21 MR. WOOD: I think your time is
    22 up, Darnay.
    23 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) -- that that
    24 voice is Burke Ramsey?
    25 MR. WOOD: Darnay, I think your


    1 time is up. Is it up?
    2 MR. RAWLS: Yes.
    3 MR. WOOD: Go ahead and ask your
    4 last question. I didn't mean to cut you
    5 off.
    6 MR. HOFFMAN: Given the fact, Lin,
    7 that you've interjected and eaten a little of
    8 my time up, I think you should allow me
    9 that. Thank you.
    10 MR. WOOD: As long as it doesn't
    11 cut into my time of what I know today to be
    12 3 hours and 50 minutes.
    13 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Mr. Thomas, can
    14 you answer that?
    15 MR. DIAMOND: It cuts into my
    16 time, Darnay.
    17 MR. WOOD: I don't think you have
    18 time today.
    19 MR. DIAMOND: I've got time to go
    20 home. Go ahead, ask your question.
    21 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Yes.
    22 Mr. Thomas, is there any -- what is the
    23 basis for your concluding that the voice that
    24 you heard on the 911 tape was the voice of
    25 Burke Ramsey?


    1 A. The basis of that and very --
    2 having to synopsize this for you,
    3 Mr. Hoffman --
    4 Q. Um-hum.
    5 A. -- was Detective Hickman's travel
    6 to the Aerospace Corp. in Southern California,
    7 their enhancement of that garbled noise at
    8 the end of that 911 call, those engineers
    9 preparing a report and making findings I
    10 think identical to the detective who was
    11 there with the tape, her returning to the
    12 Boulder Police Department with this
    13 information and then each of the detectives
    14 listening on admittedly lesser equipment
    15 inside the Boulder Police Department to these
    16 findings, I concurred with others that there
    17 was a third voice on that tape that I
    18 believed to be Burke.
    19 MR. HOFFMAN: Thank you very much,
    20 Mr. Thomas.
    21 THE DEPONENT: Thank you,
    22 Mr. Hoffman.
    23 MR. WOOD: If we can go for about
    24 five or a few minutes I want to just kind of
    25 touch on a few things that you brought up,


    1 Darnay, and then we will break for lunch.
    2 Is that okay guys?
    3 MR. DIAMOND: That's fine.
    4 MR. HOFFMAN: Fine.
    6 BY-MR.WOOD:
    7 Q. The FBI analyzed the 911 tape and
    8 they did not find any such language, true?
    9 A. I don't know what the FBI and
    10 Secret Service did because it was my
    11 understanding there may have been equipment
    12 that was incompatible to conduct this testing
    13 or for whatever reason but bottom line is the
    14 Secret Service and --
    15 Q. The FBI?
    16 A. Federal Bureau -- yeah, were
    17 unable to --
    18 Q. They didn't hear the voice that
    19 Aerospace heard, right?
    20 A. I don't know what they did or
    21 didn't hear or what they did or didn't test.
    22 I don't -- I think one of those agencies
    23 didn't even have equipment to test the tape.
    24 Q. So you think the FBI didn't reach
    25 a conclusion with respect to the 911 tape; is


    1 that your testimony?
    2 A. I don't know what the FBI or
    3 Secret Service concluded, I know what
    4 Aerospace did.
    5 Q. And you also know that the tape
    6 was taken to a fourth group and they came up
    7 with different words from the tape than what
    8 Aerospace had come up with, true?
    9 A. I know that Mr. Hofstrom took the
    10 tape to his brother-in-law for enhancement.
    11 Q. Are you suggesting that his
    12 brother-in-law somehow falsified a report?
    13 A. Did I say anything like that?
    14 Q. No, sir, I'm just asking you're
    15 not suggesting that, are you?
    16 A. No, you mentioned a fourth testing
    17 facility and I simply replied that
    18 Mr. Hofstrom took the tape to his
    19 brother-in-law.
    20 Q. So for whatever reason the FBI
    21 doesn't hear the third party, the Secret
    22 Service doesn't hear the third party,
    23 Aerospace claims to hear it and then the
    24 fourth group hears something different; is
    25 that a fair generalization of the 911 tape?


    1 A. I'm not sure that the first two
    2 agencies ever heard anything because I'm not
    3 sure they ever listened to the tape. I'm
    4 just --
    5 Q. Did you not bother to ask the
    6 FBI, I mean, you -- please, Mr. Thomas?
    7 MR. DIAMOND: Two questions.
    8 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you ever
    9 bother to call the FBI and say, gentlemen,
    10 what did you find about the 911 tape?
    11 A. I'm sure Detective Hickman, whose
    12 assignment this was, may have done that.
    13 Q. Well, what, did you ask Hickman
    14 what did the FBI say? You know, we've spent
    15 a lot of time with the FBI, Tom, what did
    16 they say? Did you ask him?
    17 MR. DIAMOND: Did he ask him
    18 what?
    19 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) What the FBI had
    20 to say about the 911 tape?
    21 A. Again, as I've said it's my
    22 understanding, Mr. Wood, that I don't know
    23 whether or not the FBI or Secret Service even
    24 tested the tape. The first testing that was
    25 done on it, to my knowledge, was through the


    1 Aerospace Corporation.
    2 Q. And did you -- have you ever
    3 tried at any time as you sit here today to
    4 make any efforts to find out about whether
    5 the FBI or the Secret Service even tested the
    6 tape and if so, what their results were?
    7 A. I don't know that.
    8 Q. Have you made any efforts is my
    9 question?
    10 A. No.
    11 Q. As we sit here today, you've never
    12 made any effort to find that out --
    13 A. No.
    14 Q. -- right? Am I right? Sometimes
    15 the no comes out differently. The question
    16 is you've never made any such efforts to find
    17 out about the FBI or the Secret Service
    18 testing of the tape?
    19 A. I have not made calls or efforts
    20 trying to determine that to the FBI or Secret
    21 Service.
    22 Q. As we sit here today you have not
    23 done that?
    24 A. That's right.
    25 Q. You slipped once, maybe


    1 inadvertently, in referring to Darnay by
    2 Darnay as opposed to Mr. Hoffman. When did
    3 Darnay Hoffman first contact you about his
    4 offer to represent you for free and to absorb
    5 your legal cost in connection with the civil
    6 litigation filed against you by the Ramseys?
    7 MR. DIAMOND: Can we just get a
    8 predicate that that fact occurred?
    9 MR. WOOD: Yeah. I've got the
    10 New York lawyer, you know what I'm talking
    11 about, don't you, Darnay?
    12 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah.
    13 MR. WOOD: For the record, you
    14 stated that several months prior months of
    15 April of 2001, you offered to represent Steve
    16 Thomas pro bono, for free and absorb all of
    17 his legal costs, right?
    18 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah, at one point
    19 I did, yes.
    20 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Right. Tell me
    21 about that. When did he contact you?
    22 A. I don't know. What's the date on
    23 the document you're looking at?
    24 Q. Maybe Darnay can tell us that if
    25 you don't know.


    1 MR. HOFFMAN: I don't remember
    2 that either.
    3 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) But you know he
    4 called you? I don't know that --
    5 MR. HOFFMAN: No, I did not call
    6 him.
    7 MR. WOOD: How did you contact
    8 him?
    9 MR. HOFFMAN: I sent him an
    10 e-mail. I don't have a phone number for --
    11 THE REPORTER: Wait. One at a
    12 time.
    13 MR. WOOD: E -mail, whatever.
    14 I'm not trying to -- I mean, you e-mailed
    15 him.
    16 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you get the
    17 e-mail, Mr. Thomas?
    18 A. This today is the first time that
    19 I have ever spoken, correct me if I'm wrong,
    20 Mr. Hoffman, that I have ever spoken
    21 personally to Mr. Darnay Hoffman.
    22 Q. Thank you.
    23 A. And yes, I do recall not only did
    24 he send me this e-mail but that on occasion
    25 I would be on an e-mailing list that would


    1 receive e-mails from Mr. Hoffman.
    2 Q. So it is true that Mr. Hoffman
    3 sent you, Steve Thomas, an e-mail in which he
    4 offered his legal services to represent you
    5 for free, pro bono, and to absorb all of
    6 your legal costs in connection with any
    7 litigation brought against you by the Ramsey
    8 family; is that true?
    9 A. Very generously so, yes, he did.
    10 Q. Why did you not accept it?
    11 MR. DIAMOND: He had a better
    12 offer.
    13 MR. HOFFMAN: Better lawyer, Lin.
    14 He got a better lawyer, trust me.
    15 MR. WOOD: Why don't you all let
    16 Mr. Thomas figure out what to say about this,
    17 without being disrespectful.
    18 MR. DIAMOND: Where is your sense
    19 of humor, Mr. Wood?
    20 A. In addition to that e-mail --
    21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Why don't you
    22 answer my question, Mr. Thomas?
    23 A. I'm trying to, Mr. Wood.
    24 Q. My question is why did you not
    25 accept it?



  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member


    1 MR. DIAMOND: And you can
    2 continue.
    3 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yeah, but please,
    4 just answer my question and we can move on
    5 to something else.
    6 A. In another e-mail, Mr. Wood also
    7 e-mailed me the name and business address and
    8 telephone number of a Mr. Daniel Petrocelli
    9 in Los Angeles who he also suggested as a
    10 fine attorney.
    11 Q. Let me make sure we get that
    12 right. Mr. Wood didn't e-mail you
    13 Mr. Petrocelli's name. Are you saying that
    14 Mr. Hoffman did?
    15 A. Yes, my mistake, yes, that's
    16 what --
    17 Q. But Mr. -- and was that close in
    18 time to his offer with respect to his offer
    19 to represent you?
    20 A. I don't recall.
    21 Q. Do you think it was a few days, a
    22 few weeks, a few months apart?
    23 A. I don't recall the timing on
    24 either of these e-mails. Maybe Mr. Hoffman
    25 can help me out.


    1 MR. WOOD: All I know, Darnay, is
    2 I've got your e-mail that you posted on April
    3 1, 2001, where you stated you made the offer
    4 to him several months before.
    5 MR. HOFFMAN: Yeah, I don't
    6 remember exactly at what point after that I
    7 also suggested Daniel Petrocelli who is, quite
    8 frankly, a better lawyer than I am in these
    9 areas, so.
    10 MR. WOOD: Well, now we know how
    11 Dan Petrocelli gets some of his business.
    12 Let's go on to something else.
    13 MR. HOFFMAN: Through referrals,
    14 Lin, just like most lawyers.
    15 MR. WOOD: Let's go on to
    16 something else.
    17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I want to make
    18 sure you very clearly have stated to
    19 Mr. Hoffman you don't know the state of the
    20 evidence as of the present date with respect
    21 to this investigation, true?
    22 MR. DIAMOND: State of the
    23 evidence? What do you mean by that?
    24 MR. WOOD: That's his term, state
    25 of the evidence.


    1 MR. DIAMOND: That's his term?
    2 MR. WOOD: Yeah, it's why I'm
    3 asking.
    4 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You said very
    5 clearly to Mr. Hoffman you do not know the
    6 state of the evidence with respect to the
    7 JonBenet Ramsey investigation, as you sit here
    8 today, the state of the evidence as of
    9 September 2001, true?
    10 A. After leaving the police
    11 department, yes, that concluded my official
    12 participation. I have followed the case
    13 through the media, but as far as being privy
    14 to anything that occurred in the grand jury
    15 or continued evidence testing, I'm unaware of
    16 that.
    17 Q. You knew the state of the evidence
    18 as it existed in the case as of March 2001,
    19 true?
    20 A. That was during the period which
    21 -- no, the grand jury had concluded -- no, I
    22 -- no, I wasn't inside the police department
    23 reviewing evidence at that time either.
    24 Q. But what you did know and you had
    25 actual knowledge of was that a grand jury had


    1 met for some 13 months and had not issued an
    2 indictment against John and Patsy Ramsey,
    3 right?
    4 A. I don't know that. Do you know
    5 that?
    6 Q. Sir, was an indictment issued? Do
    7 you have information there was an indictment
    8 of my clients that nobody has bothered
    9 telling them or me about?
    10 MR. HOFFMAN: Actually, Lin,
    11 Patrick Burke has information that he should
    12 have told you about which he announced to the
    13 media that according to him the grand jury
    14 actually took a straw poll. Why don't you
    15 ask Patrick Burke.
    16 MR. WOOD: Let me tell you,
    17 Darnay, that won't count against my time.
    18 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.
    19 MR. WOOD: But you're right, it
    20 was a straw poll; it was a vote not to
    21 indict. Thank you for bringing something to
    22 my attention that I already knew.
    23 MR. HOFFMAN: Okay.
    24 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Would you answer
    25 my question, sir? It's pretty simple. You


    1 know that no indictment was issued by the
    2 grand jury, true?
    3 A. I don't know what the grand jury
    4 did.
    5 Q. I'm not asking you what they did
    6 in terms of whether they voted or not, sir.
    7 MR. DIAMOND: I think he's asking
    8 you --
    9 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I'm asking you
    10 whether they issued an indictment to indict
    11 John and/or Patsy Ramsey?
    12 MR. DIAMOND: -- are you aware of
    13 any public report of such an indictment.
    14 A. No.
    15 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You also know that
    16 after the grand jury was dismissed that Alex
    17 Hunter stated publicly that all seven of the
    18 prosecutors in the case unanimously agreed
    19 that this was not a case where they felt
    20 that evidence was sufficient to justify at
    21 that time a prosecution. You know that, too,
    22 don't you, sir?
    23 A. That Hunter --
    24 Q. Made that statement publicly?
    25 A. Made the statement that his


    1 advisors supported that decision?
    2 Q. Seven prosecutors, not his
    3 advisors, seven prosecutors, you know that,
    4 don't you, sir?
    5 A. I know that statement was made.
    6 Q. Do you have any knowledge to
    7 contradict the accuracy of that statement,
    8 that is to say that some of those seven did
    9 not so agree as Mr. Hunter stated? Do you
    10 have anything to contradict that factually?
    11 A. You would have to poll them,
    12 Mr. Wood.
    13 Q. I'm polling you. Do you have any
    14 information to contradict that, Mr. Thomas?
    15 A. No.
    16 Q. Now, you understand, I trust, the
    17 difference between probable cause to arrest
    18 someone and sufficient evidence to justify a
    19 criminal prosecution to prove guilt beyond a
    20 reasonable doubt. Do you know the
    21 difference?
    22 A. You say you do. You're asking me
    23 if I know the difference --
    24 Q. I'm asking --
    25 A. -- between probable cause and


    1 beyond a reasonable doubt?
    2 Q. Listen to my question. Do you
    3 understand the difference between probable
    4 cause to arrest an individual and sufficient
    5 evidence to justify a criminal prosecution of
    6 that individual to prove guilt beyond a
    7 reasonable doubt; do you know the difference?
    8 A. I believe I do.
    9 Q. Can we agree that police officers
    10 who are investigating a crime may form a
    11 belief that there is probable cause to arrest
    12 but the question of who makes the decision of
    13 whether there is sufficient evidence to
    14 justify a criminal prosecution is within the
    15 domain and province of a prosecutor, isn't
    16 that the way it works, sir?
    17 A. Typically, yes, sir.
    18 Q. And there's a third category
    19 because you know the difference between
    20 probable cause to arrest and sufficient
    21 evidence to justify a prosecution to prove
    22 guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and the
    23 difference between a finding of guilt, you
    24 know that difference, too, don't you, sir?
    25 A. I believe I do, yes, sir.


    1 Q. You know the difference between
    2 saying somebody is arrested for a crime and
    3 somebody has been found guilty of a crime?
    4 You know that difference, don't you, sir?
    5 A. Yes.
    6 Q. It's a big difference, isn't it?
    7 A. Sometimes is and sometimes isn't.
    8 Q. You don't think there is a big
    9 difference between someone being arrested for
    10 a crime and someone being found guilty of a
    11 crime?
    12 MR. DIAMOND: Are you talking
    13 about the quantum of proof, sir?
    14 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Answer my question.
    15 MR. DIAMOND: Otherwise your
    16 question is gibberish.
    17 MR. WOOD: If that's a
    18 statement --
    19 MR. DIAMOND: Yeah, I object on
    20 the grounds that --
    21 MR. WOOD: -- it's an asinine
    22 statement.
    23 MR. DIAMOND: I object --
    24 MR. WOOD: It's not gibberish it
    25 is very clear.


    1 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Do you know the
    2 difference, sir, between someone being
    3 arrested for a crime and someone being found
    4 guilty of a crime; do you understand that?
    5 A. I've often arrested people who
    6 were guilty of a crime and were subsequently
    7 convicted of a crime.
    8 Q. And you've probably arrested a lot
    9 of people who were not found guilty of a
    10 crime, didn't you?
    11 A. I doubt it.
    12 Q. You don't think that happens on a
    13 frequent basis?
    14 A. That police officers, or are you
    15 talking about me, Mr. Wood?
    16 Q. Police officers in general. I
    17 won't go back into your background at the
    18 moment on that?
    19 A. That innocent people are sometimes
    20 arrested?
    21 Q. That people are arrested for a
    22 crime and ultimately not found guilty of that
    23 crime?
    24 A. I don't -- I don't have those
    25 statistics in front of me; I don't know.


    1 Q. But you don't fight the idea that
    2 that happens, sir, do you?
    3 A. I think --
    4 Q. Surely you don't think anybody
    5 that is arrested is actually found guilty, I
    6 hope?
    7 MR. DIAMOND: I think his first
    8 question is withdrawn. Can we hear the
    9 second question again?
    10 MR. WOOD: Yeah. Listen
    11 carefully. It may be gibberish again to you.
    12 MR. DIAMOND: Maybe.
    13 MR. WOOD: It's not gibberish in
    14 Atlanta. Maybe it is out in LA on the left
    15 side.
    16 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You don't fight
    17 the general concept, sir, an idea that people
    18 are arrested for crimes that ultimately they
    19 are found not guilty of committing?
    20 A. There is a difference between
    21 being found not guilty at trial and being
    22 innocent, Mr. Wood.
    23 Q. It's the difference between being
    24 not found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt
    25 even where there may be probable cause to


    1 arrest, there is a difference, isn't there,
    2 sir?
    3 A. I don't understand your question.
    4 Q. You don't understand, then, the
    5 difference between there being probable cause
    6 to arrest compared to proof of guilt beyond a
    7 reasonable doubt?
    8 A. Yes, I have already answered that.
    9 Q. You do understand it?
    10 A. For the third time.
    11 Q. Is the answer yes for the third
    12 time?
    13 A. Yes, for the fourth time.
    14 Q. Thank you. Four times is a rule
    15 of thumb. I like to get it at least three,
    16 four is even better. Thank you.
    17 Have you ever had an opportunity
    18 to review any of Darnay Hoffman's handwriting
    19 experts' reports, that would be a report from
    20 David Liedman, Cina Wong and another
    21 individual named Tom Miller?
    22 A. No.
    23 Q. Do you know whether they were ever
    24 tendered to the prosecution or to the police
    25 department and rejected as not credible?


    1 A. It's my understanding and this may
    2 have been even after I left the police
    3 department, that Mr. Hoffman made his experts
    4 available to the prosecution.
    5 Q. And they declined saying that they
    6 were not credible or do you know?
    7 A. I don't know.
    8 Q. You don't know that. You do know
    9 that there were other experts that reviewed
    10 Patsy Ramsey's handwriting and did not find
    11 evidence of authorship, true?
    12 A. Who were those?
    13 Q. Do you think there were not three
    14 other people that looked at this and did not
    15 find that there was evidence to find that she
    16 wrote the note?
    17 A. I don't know who you're referring
    18 to.
    19 Q. Well, there was a Secret Service
    20 examiner, Mr. Dusak?
    21 A. Right.
    22 Q. Speckin Laboratories?
    23 A. Mr. Speckin, yes.
    24 Q. Right. And there is one other,
    25 help me. I can pull it if you want me to?


    1 A. Alfred, Alford, Edwin Alford.
    2 Q. Did you look at their conclusions
    3 and remember them?
    4 A. I did.
    5 Q. What was Mr. Dusak's conclusion?
    6 A. Mr. Dusak, I believe, his official
    7 conclusion on his report for courtroom
    8 purposes was no evidence to indicate.
    9 Q. No evidence to indicate that Patsy
    10 Ramsey executed any of the questioned material
    11 appearing on the ransom note, was that
    12 Mr. Dusak's conclusion?
    13 A. Among other things.
    14 Q. And he was a document analyst for
    15 the United States Secret Service, right?
    16 A. Right.
    17 Q. Then we have Mr. Edwin F. Alford,
    18 Jr., police expert, examination of the
    19 questioned handwriting, comparison of the
    20 handwriting specimen submitted has failed to
    21 provide a basis for identifying Patsy Ramsey
    22 as the writer of the letter. Is that his
    23 conclusion?
    24 A. I remember Mr. Dusak. If you
    25 have a document that would help --


    1 Q. This is Mr. Alford.
    2 A. I know. I remember Mr. Dusak.
    3 If you have a document that would help me
    4 refresh my memory on Mr. Alford, I don't
    5 recall --
    6 Q. Not beyond what I have just told
    7 you, but if that helps you refresh you one
    8 way or the other what I've just told you is
    9 I believe Mr. Alford concluded?
    10 A. Will you repeat his --
    11 Q. Sure.
    12 A. -- what he concluded.
    13 Q. The examination of the questioned
    14 handwriting comparison with the handwriting
    15 specimen submitted has failed to provide a
    16 basis for identifying Patricia Ramsey as the
    17 writer of the letter?
    18 A. If that's what the report says.
    19 I certainly don't disagree with --
    20 MR. DIAMOND: He's asking you
    21 whether that refreshes your recollection.
    22 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Do you recall
    23 Mr. Alford coming to that conclusion?
    24 A. To a -- yeah, I think that's the
    25 conclusion.


    1 Q. And then Leonard A. Speckin, he
    2 said that he found no evidence that Patsy
    3 Ramsey disguised her handwriting exemplars.
    4 Did you -- were you aware of that conclusion
    5 by Mr. Speckin, a police expert?
    6 A. Among other conclusions, yes.
    7 Q. You understood enough about the
    8 handwriting analysis that a legitimate
    9 handwriting questioned document examiner
    10 analyzes not just similarities, but also has
    11 to analyze and account for dissimilarities,
    12 right?
    13 A. If you say so, Mr. Wood, I'm
    14 not --
    15 Q. I'm asking you, sir.
    16 A. No, I'm not a handwriting expert
    17 and don't purport to be.
    18 Q. So you can't --
    19 A. If you're asking me about my
    20 layman's knowledge about handwriting science I
    21 would be happy to answer your question.
    22 Q. I'm asking you about your
    23 understanding of the science when you were
    24 the, quote, one of the lead detectives. Did
    25 you not listen to what the experts were


    1 saying and what their bases were and did you
    2 not grasp the fundamental idea when you were
    3 listening that they were saying we've got to
    4 analyze both similarities and dissimilarities?
    5 MR. DIAMOND: Objection.
    6 Compound. You may answer.
    7 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you understand
    8 that to be the case or not?
    9 A. That was among many things that I
    10 understood them to look at.
    11 Q. Thank you. Do you know the
    12 names? You gave me a couple but for the
    13 record I would like to make sure I've got
    14 them. I would like to get the names of the
    15 Boulder police officers who took over in
    16 effect the Chris Wolf case. You gave me a
    17 couple; let's make sure we've got them all.
    18 Could you give them to me now on the record?
    19 A. I think Commander Beckner assigned
    20 Detective Carey Weinheimer to complete the
    21 Chris Wolf investigation in early to spring
    22 of '98.
    23 Q. Anyone else?
    24 A. I don't know if he was working
    25 with a partner or not.


    1 Q. That's the only name you know?
    2 A. Right.
    3 Q. And I take it you don't know
    4 firsthand or secondhand what caused the
    5 Boulder Police Department to go back and
    6 choose to investigate Wolf and get his
    7 non-testimonial evidence in February of 1998?
    8 A. What prompted that?
    9 Q. Yeah.
    10 A. That he was still outstanding, if
    11 you will.
    12 Q. A suspect?
    13 A. It's whatever you want to call
    14 him.
    15 Q. What did you call him?
    16 A. There were several people who were
    17 suspicious in this case to me and I'm not
    18 going to quibble if we want to attach suspect
    19 to Chris Wolf.
    20 Q. It's the word you used in your
    21 book you referred to him as a suspect, didn't
    22 you?
    23 A. As I said, I don't have a problem
    24 with calling Chris Wolf a suspect.
    25 Q. Any -- did Darnay Hoffman or Chris


    1 Wolf ever make any demands on you to retract
    2 the statement that he was a suspect in your
    3 book or threaten to sue you for publishing a
    4 book calling him a suspect?
    5 A. Not that I'm aware of.
    6 Q. Just a couple more, then we'll
    7 break. Are you aware of Mr. Wolf's prior
    8 employment history?
    9 A. My encounter with Mr. Wolf, as you
    10 said, yielded little information. Other than
    11 what Jackie Dilson may have provided, I don't
    12 know.
    13 Q. Did you make a copy, I know you
    14 said something about you weren't sure if you
    15 had copied it. Do you know whether you
    16 actually made a copy of your master affidavit
    17 when you were copying these police files
    18 after you left?
    19 A. I don't know. My answer is I
    20 don't know.
    21 Q. Would it help to ask you whether
    22 you know whether you relied on it in writing
    23 your book?
    24 A. No, I don't think so.
    25 MR. WOOD: Darnay, are you there,


    1 Darnay? Hello?
    2 MR. DIAMOND: Probably a good time
    3 to break.
    4 MR. WOOD: I guess we're going to
    5 take a break. Could we do this. I'm going
    6 to ask him when we come back -- since we've
    7 lost Darnay I'm going to ask him about five
    8 questions or so that address some areas, two
    9 or three of which were marked as confidential
    10 in the Wolf deposition. And what I believe
    11 the protective order says is that, before
    12 doing that, I need to let him see it and you
    13 all will agree that he will abide by it in
    14 effect, sign on, and keep that information
    15 confidential. Can we agree that you all can
    16 do that while we're at lunch?
    17 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Did you want
    18 this on the record?
    19 MR. WOOD: Is that okay?
    20 MR. DIAMOND: I'll talk to him at
    21 lunch. He may not want to be subject to the
    22 confidentiality order.
    23 MR. WOOD: Only subject as to
    24 Wolf's testimony.
    25 MR. DIAMOND: We will talk over


    1 lunch.
    2 MR. WOOD: That he has designated
    3 confidential.
    4 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    5 12:58. We're going off the record. This is
    6 the end of tape two.
    7 (Recess taken from 12:58 p.m. to
    8 1:54 p.m.)
    9 (Exhibit-2 was marked.)
    10 (Videographer Intern present after
    11 recess.)
    12 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    13 2:04. We're back on the record. This is
    14 the beginning of tape three.
    15 Q. (BY MR. WOOD)
    17 A.
    18 Q.
    20 A.
    21 Q.
    22 MR. DIAMOND: He's doing well by
    23 some standards.
    24 MR. WOOD: He's doing well by my
    25 standards. You don't need to put that on


    1 the record in case my wife, present wife, and
    2 last wife number four sees it.
    3 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, I'm
    4 going to go back and make sure I'm very
    5 clear. The copies that you made of the
    6 police file information before you turned it
    7 back into the Boulder police, you knew you
    8 were not authorized to copy that material and
    9 keep it, didn't you?
    10 A. Not necessarily. This was my work
    11 and briefcase.
    12 Q. So if it was the Boulder Police
    13 Department report and your briefcase, you
    14 thought you had a right to copy it and keep
    15 it after you left the department; is that
    16 your testimony?
    17 A. If I later had to testify or if
    18 there was a question about what I returned to
    19 the department, that would satisfy that.
    20 Q. Did you check with anyone within
    21 the department to make sure that was the
    22 department's policy and rules?
    23 A. No, there was little conversation
    24 with the administration after I left.
    25 Q. As I understand it, you remember


    1 last seeing these documents and the box that
    2 had these documents in it, the ones that you
    3 had been sent from the Boulder Police
    4 Department people after they learned that you
    5 were writing the book --
    6 MR. DIAMOND: I'm sorry, after?
    7 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I thought that he
    8 told me he started getting them in early
    9 1999 after he announced he was writing the
    10 book; isn't that true?
    11 MR. DIAMOND: Okay. I misheard
    12 you.
    13 A. That's right.
    14 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) The anonymous ones
    15 from whom you clearly believe were Boulder
    16 police officers?
    17 A. That's right.
    18 Q. I was confused and hopefully it
    19 won't happen too often but it may not be the
    20 last time, but as I understand your
    21 testimony, you haven't looked for that box,
    22 you just recall that you saw it sometime last
    23 perhaps this March of 2000, right?
    24 A. Yes, I had that box March of
    25 2000.


    1 Q. So you don't know because you
    2 haven't looked today whether that box is
    3 still in your possession, custody or control?
    4 You don't know one way or the other because
    5 you haven't looked for it, right?
    6 A. Right.
    7 Q. I'll give you a subpoena. I'll
    8 get you to acknowledge as I hand it to you,
    9 sir, would ask you to go now and look for
    10 those documents that at some point are
    11 consistent with the exhibit attached to the
    12 subpoena. Do you acknowledge that I handed
    13 you that subpoena?
    14 MR. DIAMOND: I will. So
    15 stipulated.
    16 MR. WOOD: Thank you.
    17 MR. DIAMOND: You asked us to
    18 consider a request during the lunch hour with
    19 respect to confidentiality.
    20 MR. WOOD: Yeah, but I realized
    21 you had already agreed to do the
    22 confidentiality deal because of the social
    23 security number.
    24 MR. DIAMOND: But I've agreed that
    25 I might designate portions of this deposition


    1 subject to a confidentiality order. In terms
    2 of subjecting my client to the terms of an
    3 order that he is otherwise not subjected to,
    4 we have decided we don't want to do that.
    5 And so I would ask you simply just ask him
    6 questions and don't -- refrain from
    7 disclosing --
    8 MR. WOOD: I'll ask him whatever
    9 I feel is appropriate.
    10 MR. DIAMOND: Sure.
    11 MR. WOOD: You can decide or
    12 Darnay can decide what you and he want to do
    13 about it but, as I understand it, you don't
    14 agree to be part of the protective order that
    15 is available that Sean has reviewed prior to
    16 the deposition today?
    17 MR. DIAMOND: With respect to
    18 third-party materials, that's correct.
    19 MR. WOOD: Would you sign on in
    20 any potential?
    21 MR. DIAMOND: What's that?
    22 MR. WOOD: You either accept the
    23 order for Mr. Thomas or you go get a new
    24 order that says that Mr. Thomas' deposition
    25 in some part is confidential.


    1 MR. DIAMOND: Mr. Thomas isn't
    2 accepting the confidentiality order.
    3 MR. WOOD: Fine.
    4 MR. DIAMOND: I may well designate
    5 portions of his deposition confidential.
    6 MR. WOOD: Then when you do that,
    7 you will have signed on to the protective
    8 order.
    9 MR. DIAMOND: I disagree, but
    10 that's a matter for the --
    11 MR. WOOD: Well, you will get a
    12 new protective order.
    13 MR. HOFFMAN: That is a matter
    14 for the judge to decide.
    15 MR. WOOD: Right, it is. We
    16 won't count that part against my time, I
    17 hope?
    18 MR. DIAMOND: We'll count from
    19 2:05 against your time.
    20 MR. WOOD: That won't be part of
    21 it.
    22 MR. DIAMOND: Sir --
    23 MR. WOOD: Let's go.
    24 MR. DIAMOND: -- you're wasting
    25 your time.


    1 MR. WOOD: No, you're wasting my
    2 time. Let's go forward.
    3 MR. WOOD: Did I give you a copy,
    4 too, Sean? I think I gave you --
    5 MR. SMITH: I think so. I may
    6 have the original.
    7 MR. WOOD: -- two copies and the
    8 original that I handed to the detective,
    9 former detective, excuse me.
    10 MR. SMITH: I may have the
    11 original.
    12 MR. WOOD: Yeah, I just wanted to
    13 make sure I didn't give you all my copies.
    14 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas --
    15 yeah, I've got it -- the 911 tape. Did you
    16 ever hear any explanation as to why that tape
    17 was garbled in part?
    18 A. At some point during the
    19 investigation I recall the tape coming to
    20 Detective Sergeant Wickman's attention
    21 initially because the 911 operator who took
    22 that call thought there may have been
    23 something at the end of the conversation that
    24 was unintelligible.
    25 Q. I appreciate that information.


    1 But I would like to get to my question
    2 because my time is limited today at least and
    3 whether we finish or not is another issue.
    4 But my question is, did you ever, sir, hear
    5 any explanation as to why a portion of the
    6 911 tape was garbled?
    7 A. I'm not sure I understand your
    8 question. Are you asking me why --
    9 Q. Yeah, was anybody trying to figure
    10 out why -- the 911 tape is a tape in
    11 realtime, isn't it?
    12 A. Yes.
    13 Q. And one would think that you would
    14 hear in realtime voices that are on the tape.
    15 You say there is something garbled. Was
    16 there ever any attempt to find out why this
    17 portion of the tape might be garbled and not
    18 discernible to the human ear without some
    19 scientific analysis? That's my question.
    20 A. I don't think that it was garbled
    21 in the sense that there was a defect in the
    22 tape or something, that's certainly not my
    23 understanding. I think the description of
    24 garbled was meant to include the fact that as
    25 this phone was apparently being attempted


    1 placed back into the cradle, there was some
    2 conversation that was not as clear as Patsy
    3 Ramsey speaking directly into the phone, to
    4 the 911 operator.
    5 Q. You knew the phone from your
    6 investigation was a wall phone, didn't you?
    7 A. Yes.
    8 Q. Can you hear any effort on the
    9 tape to try to hang the phone up, a banging
    10 or a tapping or anything of that nature?
    11 A. The call obviously concludes with
    12 the line disconnecting but, no, not that I
    13 recall today without listening to the tape of
    14 the phone banging.
    15 Q. Do you know whether the 911 tapes
    16 that were being utilized at the time were
    17 recycled in the sense that they might be
    18 taped over after a period of time?
    19 A. I don't know.
    20 Q. Was any effort made by the Boulder
    21 Police Department, to your knowledge, to try
    22 to ascertain that information?
    23 A. I would certainly think they did.
    24 Q. But do you know the answer?
    25 A. I don't have any knowledge of


    1 that.
    2 Q. Secondhand or otherwise?
    3 A. No.
    4 Q. Take a look at your book, if you
    5 will, for me, page 15. Are you with me?
    6 A. Yes.
    7 Q. "In preliminary examinations,
    8 detectives thought they could hear some more
    9 words being spoken between the time Patsy
    10 Ramsey said 'Hurry, hurry, hurry' and when
    11 the call was terminated." Have I read that
    12 correctly?
    13 A. Yes.
    14 Q. Is that the truth, is that
    15 accurate?
    16 A. Yes.
    17 Q. "However, the FBI and the United
    18 States Secret Service could not lift anything
    19 from the background noise on the tape." Have
    20 I read that correctly?
    21 A. Yes.
    22 Q. Is that the truth?
    23 A. As we discussed earlier, yes.
    24 Q. I thought you said you didn't know
    25 what efforts, if any, they had made earlier?


    1 A. I said in one case at least I
    2 don't know that they had the proper or
    3 necessary compatible equipment to try to
    4 enhance this tape, nor did I know of them
    5 ever submitting a report.
    6 Q. All I would like to know is did
    7 the FBI to your knowledge or the Secret
    8 Service to your knowledge ever send the tape
    9 back and say we don't have the proper
    10 equipment to see if we can lift anything from
    11 the background noise on this tape?
    12 A. Again, we have discussed that and
    13 that's my testimony, that not being my
    14 assignment, it was my understanding that the
    15 tape came back from the FBI and the Secret
    16 Service without anything definitive, but I
    17 recall there being an issue that somebody
    18 didn't have proper equipment to do the
    19 testing.
    20 Q. Well, you don't say anything like
    21 that here. This is definitive. The FBI and
    22 the United States Secret Service could not
    23 lift anything from the background noise on
    24 the tape. Is that a true statement or not?
    25 A. Whether, because they didn't have


    1 the correct machine or because they didn't
    2 lift anything if they did do some testing,
    3 yes, that's a true statement.
    4 Q. Why wouldn't you -- I mean with
    5 all due respect I don't think you were trying
    6 to do the Ramseys any favors in this book.
    7 Why wouldn't you have said here that they
    8 couldn't lift anything from the background
    9 noise on the tape but that may have been the
    10 result of inappropriate equipment. You didn't
    11 say that or discuss that in your book, did
    12 you?
    13 A. If we're talking about the
    14 production of the book, it was certainly
    15 limited. I couldn't put everything in this
    16 case into the content of the book.
    17 Q. The bottom line is we're confident
    18 that someone in the Boulder Police Department
    19 can answer the question about the findings by
    20 the United States Secret Service and the FBI
    21 about this 911 tape. That's in the case
    22 file, isn't it?
    23 A. Undoubtedly.
    24 Q. Good. And I don't believe I
    25 asked you this; I wanted to. Are you aware


    1 of any attempts to take a voice exemplar from
    2 Burke Ramsey and have it analyzed against the
    3 voice you think your human ear tells you or
    4 because it's a third-party voice that it's
    5 Burke Ramsey, any efforts to do a scientific
    6 analysis by way of a voice exemplar between
    7 Burke Ramsey's voice and the voice you think
    8 might have been his on the 911 tape?
    9 A. I certainly never received an
    10 assignment like that, nor do I recall hearing
    11 or knowing of anyone else who did.
    12 Q. In December of 1996, who did you
    13 consider to be the most experienced homicide
    14 detective in the Boulder Police Department?
    15 A. In the entire department?
    16 Q. I think I'm pretty clear, sir, in
    17 the Boulder Police Department, the detective
    18 department of the Boulder police.
    19 A. As I asked, that the detective --
    20 there is a detective department and then
    21 there is a uniform department where --
    22 Q. I think my question said in the
    23 detective department.
    24 A. In the detective department I
    25 think the most experienced homicide


    1 investigator was likely Detective Sergeant Tom
    2 Wickman.
    3 Q. As I understand it initially Tom
    4 Trujillo and Linda Ardnt were the two
    5 designated co-lead detectives on the case,
    6 JonBenet Ramsey case, true?
    7 A. Yes.
    8 Q. And then after Arndt was removed,
    9 did Tom Wickman take that place, did he
    10 become the lead detective?
    11 A. Tom Wickman or Tom Trujillo?
    12 Q. You tell me whether it was Wickman
    13 or Trujillo.
    14 A. No, because there was no real
    15 designation at that point.
    16 Q. Were you ever designated by the
    17 department as the lead detective or co-lead
    18 detective on the case?
    19 A. There were four or five detectives
    20 who were designated as primary detectives who
    21 worked this case full time with no other
    22 assignments.
    23 Q. My question was were you ever
    24 designated by the Boulder Police Department as
    25 the lead detective or a co-lead detective on


    1 the JonBenet Ramsey case?
    2 A. No, after Ardnt left -- actually,
    3 prior to Arndt leaving, that designation was
    4 not being used in the manner you describe it.
    5 Q. The two shootings that you were
    6 involved in while you were with the Boulder
    7 Police Department, do you know whether the
    8 department itself investigated those two
    9 shootings?
    10 A. I don't know the inception of a
    11 unit called the Boulder County Shoot Team,
    12 when that came into being but it was either
    13 investigated by the Boulder County Shoot Team
    14 or the Boulder Police Department.
    15 Q. Are you aware of any information
    16 relating to Patsy Ramsey, Mr. Thomas, that
    17 you consider to be incriminating with respect
    18 to the death of her daughter that is not
    19 included in your hardback or paperback book?
    20 A. In a circumstantial case such as
    21 this there are arguments that could be made
    22 that there is a lot of other information
    23 contained within the files of the Boulder
    24 Police Department that didn't fit into -- in
    25 this book.


    1 Q. Thank you. But I want to know as
    2 you sit here today whether you are prepared
    3 to give me the benefit of any information
    4 related to Patsy Ramsey that you, Steve
    5 Thomas, consider to be incriminating with
    6 respect to the death of her daughter that is
    7 not included in either your hardback or
    8 paperback book?
    9 MR. DIAMOND: Can you do that
    10 without reviewing --
    11 A. Yeah, without reviewing --
    12 MR. WOOD: Excuse me. Can I get
    13 him to answer without you suggesting the
    14 answer which would be totally inappropriate
    15 and I don't think appreciated under the
    16 Federal Rules or by the judge. Please answer
    17 the question for me without being coached by
    18 Mr. Diamond.
    19 MR. DIAMOND: Mr. Thomas doesn't
    20 need to be coached by me, sir.
    21 MR. WOOD: Well, apparently then
    22 you need to understand that, don't coach him.
    23 Coach him during lunch, do it in the last
    24 two days you had him.
    25 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Answer my question,


    1 sir. Is there any other information that as
    2 you sit here today know that you consider
    3 incriminating about Patsy Ramsey in terms of
    4 her being involved in the death of her
    5 daughter that you didn't include in your
    6 book?
    7 A. To answer that big question, I
    8 would have to review my reports and the case
    9 file to determine definitively if there are
    10 items that were learned during the course of
    11 the investigation that I didn't put in the
    12 book.
    13 Q. So you would be able to do that
    14 if you can come up with this box of
    15 materials when you go to look for it and you
    16 find it, right?
    17 A. Or if you can allow me inside the
    18 Boulder Police Department, I'll do that for
    19 you.
    20 Q. I think -- while I might have a
    21 better chance of getting the key to the
    22 department than you might, I don't think
    23 either one of us is going to get that short
    24 of a court order but I'll certainly try and
    25 if you would like to try maybe we can both


    1 together do it; is that a deal?
    2 A. Deal, Mr. Wood.
    3 Q. Okay. We'll go in combined and
    4 ask Beckner to open the door. I would love
    5 to see it and I know you would, too. I'm
    6 going to try and go through and ask you if
    7 you would to take a look at your book --
    8 well, before I do that, let me ask you a
    9 couple of other things.
    10 Who is Dr. Michael Graham?
    11 A. The name Dr. Michael Graham
    12 doesn't ring a bell with me right now.
    13 Q. He was not a consultant hired by
    14 the Boulder Police Department?
    15 A. He may have been but I'm not
    16 familiar with that person.
    17 Q. You don't recall Dr. Michael
    18 Graham taking the position that the pineapple
    19 found in JonBenet's digestive system could
    20 have been eaten the day before? Does that
    21 refresh you in terms of Michael Graham's
    22 involvement?
    23 A. No, since you mentioned
    24 pineapple --
    25 Q. I didn't ask you -- I asked you


    1 about Dr. Michael Graham.
    2 A. I'm trying to answer the question.
    3 Q. Well, my question is, does that
    4 refresh you about Dr. Graham?
    5 A. In that limited way, no.
    6 Q. There was clearly an indication
    7 from a member of the Boulder Police
    8 Department that they found at least seven
    9 doors and windows unlocked at the Ramsey home
    10 on the morning of December 26, 1996. You
    11 remember that, don't you?
    12 A. I've heard that referred to. I
    13 don't know -- what detective are you
    14 referring to?
    15 Q. Have you heard that, sir? Has
    16 that not been part of a presentation made to
    17 you?
    18 A. By Lou Smit or Mr. DeMuth?
    19 Q. Either one.
    20 A. What presentation are you talking
    21 about?
    22 Q. There were two presentations, one
    23 in May and one in June. You attended both,
    24 true?
    25 A. I did.



  6. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member


    1 Q. You took notes, didn't you?
    2 A. I may have.
    3 Q. You paid careful attention to what
    4 was being said, didn't you?
    5 A. I believe so.
    6 Q. Have you ever heard that there
    7 were seven windows and doors found unlocked
    8 in the Ramsey home on the morning of December
    9 26, 1996?
    10 A. I don't know who the source of
    11 that is right now but I --
    12 Q. I didn't ask you the source. I
    13 asked you have you ever heard it, sir?
    14 A. Yeah.
    15 MR. DIAMOND: Have you heard that
    16 from any source?
    17 A. Yeah.
    18 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) From someone
    19 connected with the investigation, either in
    20 the district attorney's office or the Boulder
    21 Police Department?
    22 A. Or courtesy of you and the media,
    23 yeah, I believe I've heard that.
    24 Q. Trust me, I wasn't there the
    25 morning of the 26th and I didn't find the


    1 status of the doors. I'm asking you
    2 whether --
    3 A. Nor was I, no.
    4 Q. And I don't think I was around in
    5 May or June when the presentations were made.
    6 You heard that a Boulder police officer had
    7 found as many as seven doors and windows
    8 unlocked in that house on the morning of
    9 December 26, 1996, hadn't you, sir?
    10 A. You're sourcing that to a -- now
    11 to a Boulder police officer detective and
    12 that's not my recollection; DeMuth may have
    13 said that.
    14 Q. Do you think Trip DeMuth made it
    15 up out of a whole cloth?
    16 A. I don't know where Trip DeMuth
    17 uncovered a lot of things in his
    18 investigation.
    19 Q. So you think that there was --
    20 you feel like you can competently say that's
    21 not true, that there were no doors found
    22 unlocked or windows found unlocked that
    23 morning?
    24 A. I wasn't there that morning.
    25 Q. Well, sir, you were not but you


    1 have to rely, as you say earlier in your
    2 testimony, on your fellow officers, right?
    3 A. That's right.
    4 Q. All right. Well, did you go back
    5 and ever look to see if there were ever any
    6 reports that would have indicated that there
    7 were as many as seven windows and doors found
    8 unlocked in that house that morning?
    9 A. I'm not familiar with the
    10 detective or the report you're speaking about.
    11 Q. How about Officer Reichenbach, how
    12 do you pronounce his name?
    13 A. Reichenbach.
    14 Q. Do you ever recall hearing about
    15 what he said when he met with Dr. Henry Lee
    16 in terms of whether there was snow on the
    17 sidewalk of the house when he arrived that
    18 morning?
    19 A. Yes.
    20 Q. What did he say?
    21 A. He said, and he also said this to
    22 me, that although there was due to what I
    23 think was an 11 degree temperature outside,
    24 there was a fresh frost and maybe a light
    25 dusting of snow on some of the lawn areas,


    1 but on the sidewalks and walkways around the
    2 house, as he put in his report, as I may
    3 have put in one of my reports, as we
    4 presented to the VIP conference, that you
    5 could not tell whether or not somebody may
    6 have walked on those walkways in question.
    7 Q. Or the wood chips?
    8 A. I don't recall specifically him
    9 talking about the wood chips.
    10 Q. Did you also get some information
    11 from NOAA about whether or not there might
    12 have been snow expected to be found on the
    13 north and west sidewalks of the Ramsey home
    14 on the morning of December 26th?
    15 A. I think one detective may have
    16 gotten that assignment.
    17 Q. And that NOAA indicated they would
    18 not have expected snow there; is that right?
    19 A. I don't know the results of that
    20 NOAA report.
    21 Q. You would have had the ability to
    22 look at them when you were there and
    23 investigating the case, wouldn't you?
    24 A. Yes, I don't -- as I said, I
    25 don't recall seeing that NOAA report.


    1 Q. What did the FBI tell you, the
    2 Boulder Police Department, about the
    3 credibility of Dr. Werner Spitz?
    4 A. Dr. Spitz I believe was the
    5 assignment of Detectives Trujillo, Wickman and
    6 possibly Weinheimer.
    7 Q. They didn't tell you that, did
    8 they?
    9 A. No, but I'm trying to answer the
    10 question.
    11 Q. I know but we have a limited
    12 amount of time today but if we don't finish,
    13 we can come back and finish another day. It
    14 would be helpful I think if you try to focus
    15 and stay on task with my question. I don't
    16 mean to cut you off. You have the right to
    17 explain the answer but we can move quicker if
    18 we go directly to answering my question.
    19 My question is, sir, did the FBI
    20 to your knowledge make any statement to the
    21 Boulder police about the credibility of Dr.
    22 Werner Spitz?
    23 A. No, to the contrary. I'm not
    24 aware of any such statement. And to the
    25 contrary, the detectives assigned to Dr. Spitz


    1 thought the world of him and thought he was
    2 entirely professional and credible and I never
    3 heard anything attacking the credibility of
    4 Spitz.
    5 Q. At either presentation, it wasn't
    6 said?
    7 A. No, DeMuth's presentation, other
    8 than attacking virtually everything, the VIP
    9 presentation, I took that Spitz was an
    10 esteemed forensic pathologist.
    11 Q. Relying on your fellow officers
    12 again, right?
    13 A. Yes.
    14 Q. There was a Barbie nightgown found
    15 in the wine cellar where JonBenet Ramsey's
    16 body was found, right?
    17 A. Right.
    18 Q. Was there any evidence obtained
    19 from that nightgown?
    20 A. Not that I'm aware of prior to
    21 departing August of '98.
    22 Q. There was no fiber evidence that
    23 you're aware of that was found on that
    24 nightgown?
    25 A. Not that Detective Trujillo shared


    1 with me.
    2 Q. Was there any blood evidence found
    3 on that nightgown?
    4 A. Not that I'm aware of.
    5 Q. Any hair evidence found on that
    6 nightgown, to your knowledge, firsthand or
    7 secondhand?
    8 A. Not that I'm aware of.
    9 Q. Was there any decision made or
    10 conclusion drawn, perhaps is the better way
    11 to say it, that you're aware of, from any
    12 source, as to whether the panties that
    13 JonBenet Ramsey was found in had been worn
    14 and washed in the past or were new, in
    15 effect, fresh out of the package?
    16 A. I believe that was after my
    17 departure that that underwear investigation
    18 took place.
    19 Q. So, again, the state of the
    20 evidence with respect to that issue, you do
    21 not know, true?
    22 A. Right.
    23 Q. Do you know whether there were any
    24 autopsy photos that showed JonBenet from the
    25 standpoint of being able to look at it to


    1 see whether or not the panties, not the other
    2 articles of clothing, but the panties, fit
    3 her or whether they were obviously not a
    4 correct fit?
    5 A. It's my belief from detective
    6 briefings that they were referred to as
    7 oversized floral panties.
    8 Q. Thank you. Were there any autopsy
    9 photos is my question?
    10 A. Without the long-john over pants
    11 covering the underwear, I don't recall seeing
    12 any autopsy photos of just the child in her
    13 underpants.
    14 Q. Was there any other fibers found
    15 on the duct tape, other than the fibers that
    16 Mr. Hoffman had referred you to with respect
    17 to Patsy Ramsey's sweater or jacket?
    18 A. I believe so, yes.
    19 Q. And it's also true that those
    20 fibers were not capable or there was no
    21 identification made, no source found in the
    22 investigation, true?
    23 A. When I left, I don't believe those
    24 other fibers had been sourced.
    25 Q. And, you know, without going and I


    1 guess we could do it if we need to, maybe
    2 we'll do it later but let's just for a
    3 moment see if we can't generally agree, that
    4 there were a considerable number of fibers
    5 found on JonBenet Ramsey's body and articles
    6 of clothing that were not in fact sourced by
    7 the investigation, true?
    8 A. Whether artifact or evidence, yeah,
    9 there were a number of hair and fiber pieces
    10 in this case that I know they, Trujillo and
    11 CBI, were trying to source.
    12 Q. And as of August of '98 had not
    13 been able to do so, true?
    14 A. That's my understanding.
    15 Q. And CBI had at one point come up
    16 with a conclusion that there was a
    17 consistency between fibers found on a blanket
    18 in the suitcase that matched fibers on
    19 JonBenet's body or were consistent with, is
    20 that the right term?
    21 A. I heard Mr. Smit and Mr. DeMuth
    22 refer to that but I didn't hear Trujillo ever
    23 offer a report or an explanation concerning
    24 that.
    25 Q. But the FBI disagreed with the


    1 CBI, didn't they?
    2 A. On what point?
    3 Q. On the question of whether there
    4 were fibers inside materials found in the
    5 suitcase found under the window in the
    6 basement consistent with fibers found on
    7 JonBenet?
    8 A. No, I'm aware of Smit and DeMuth's
    9 position or stating this consistency of these
    10 fibers, but I'm not aware of a disagreement
    11 between the FBI and that finding.
    12 Q. In your entire law enforcement
    13 career, Mr. Thomas, how many cases have you
    14 been involved in where the law enforcement
    15 authorities concluded that there was staging
    16 with respect to a murder?
    17 A. How many cases am I aware of?
    18 Q. Let me ask you and if you would
    19 please help us move along. Again, if we
    20 don't finish today --
    21 MR. DIAMOND: Your questions are
    22 not easy. If he asks for you to repeat it
    23 that is his right.
    24 MR. WOOD: Judge Carnes can -- if
    25 I'm not being clear let me read it back.


    1 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) In your entire law
    2 enforcement career, Mr. Thomas, how many cases
    3 have you been involved in where law
    4 enforcement authorities concluded that there
    5 was staging with respect to a murder?
    6 A. None that I can think of.
    7 Q. And is it your term that the
    8 ransom note found in the Ramsey home, have
    9 you been one to describe it as the War and
    10 Peace of all ransom notes?
    11 A. I did not originate that term, but
    12 I've heard that and used it, yes.
    13 Q. This would be the War and Peace
    14 of all staging with respect to JonBenet
    15 Ramsey, wouldn't it, sir, if it's a staged
    16 crime scene?
    17 A. Well, I'm relying on the FBI
    18 experts who analyze these cases every day for
    19 a living and it was their conclusion that
    20 there was staging in this crime scene.
    21 Q. They just -- strike that.
    22 The FBI that you rely on also,
    23 though, told you that they have not any
    24 reported incident of a parent garroting a
    25 child to death; that's what the FBI told you


    1 about the garrote, true?
    2 A. With a ransom note present and an
    3 apparent botched kidnapping where the body was
    4 found in the victim's home, that is correct.
    5 Q. Is it your testimony, then, that
    6 there are cases that the FBI has in their
    7 files where a parent has garroted a child,
    8 has strangled to death a child by use of a
    9 garrote; is that your testimony?
    10 A. No, my testimony is I don't know
    11 what the FBI has in their files concerning
    12 their investigation or review of child
    13 homicides.
    14 Q. Did you ever ask about whether
    15 there was any prior case that you could study
    16 where a parent had used a garrote to strangle
    17 a child; did you ever ask the FBI that?
    18 A. I don't recall personally asking
    19 them that.
    20 Q. Do you know whether anybody in the
    21 Boulder Police Department investigation ever
    22 made that inquiry to the FBI?
    23 A. There were several trips and
    24 inquiries and phone calls and meetings with
    25 the FBI. And I don't know, but it would


    1 sound reasonable that one would ask that.
    2 Q. If one asked, no one ever gave
    3 you the answer and you didn't find out about
    4 it, right?
    5 A. They did explain that they have
    6 seen cases in which parents have feloniously
    7 slain their own children in any number of
    8 ways. If garroting was one of those, I'm
    9 unaware of that.
    10 Q. Wouldn't that be something you
    11 would want to know since you have a garrote
    12 involved in this case?
    13 A. Let me answer it simply. Again,
    14 I don't know of the FBI, have any knowledge
    15 firsthand or secondhand, denying or confirming
    16 the use of a garrote in a previous child
    17 homicide.
    18 Q. I think I understand you. The
    19 red fibers, we're talking about the red
    20 fibers off the duct tape, right, the ones
    21 that Mr. Hoffman asked you about?
    22 A. Yes.
    23 Q. That were consistent or a likely
    24 match with Patsy Ramsey's jacket?
    25 A. Yes.


    1 Q. That was the red and black and
    2 gray jacket that she was wearing?
    3 A. I've always heard it referred to
    4 as a red and black jacket, yes.
    5 Q. It's the one in the photograph,
    6 though, that was produced where they went
    7 back a year afterwards and tried to find what
    8 they were wearing, right?
    9 A. Yes.
    10 Q. Were you aware of the fact that
    11 Priscilla White owned an identical jacket,
    12 that in fact Patsy Ramsey bought her jacket
    13 because she liked Priscilla White's so much?
    14 A. Until you told me that right now,
    15 no.
    16 Q. So I assume that no request, that
    17 you're aware of, was ever made for the Whites
    18 to give articles of clothing with respect to
    19 this investigation?
    20 A. They may have been asked to give
    21 clothing; I'm unaware of that.
    22 Q. There were no black fibers that
    23 were found on the duct tape that were said
    24 to be consistent with the fibers on Patsy
    25 Ramsey's red and black jacket, were there?


    1 A. It's my understanding that the
    2 four fibers were red in color.
    3 Q. Did you find Melody Stanton to be
    4 a credible witness in terms of hearing a
    5 scream of a child sometime around midnight?
    6 A. I wish I could have talked to
    7 her. I never talked to Melody Stanton.
    8 Q. Did the Boulder Police Department
    9 consider her to be credible?
    10 A. This collective Boulder Police
    11 Department, I don't know what their opinion
    12 was of her, but certainly Detective Hartkopp
    13 interviewed her and whether or not he found
    14 her to be credible, you would have to ask
    15 him. But apparently so, he never said
    16 anything to the contrary.
    17 Q. In your scenario that Mr. Hoffman
    18 had you read into the record, your
    19 description of the death of JonBenet Ramsey,
    20 do you include in that description as
    21 accurate that there was a scream as described
    22 by Melody Stanton?
    23 A. According to an ear witness,
    24 Melody Stanton.
    25 Q. So the answer is yes?


    1 A. If the question is, was there a
    2 scream and do I believe there was a scream
    3 that this witness heard, yes.
    4 Q. All right. In your description of
    5 how JonBenet Ramsey died, you have made it
    6 clear both in your book and in your national
    7 television appearances that John Ramsey was
    8 not involved, right?
    9 A. It's my belief that John Ramsey
    10 was not involved in this crime, you're right.
    11 Q. Right. And that it was sometime,
    12 as I understand your description of the
    13 events, the next morning when he was studying
    14 the ransom note that he became suspicious and
    15 perhaps concluded, you say, that his wife was
    16 involved, right?
    17 A. That's what I purport in my
    18 hypothesis.
    19 Q. What did John Ramsey tell you
    20 about who went to bed first on the evening
    21 of December 25, 1996?
    22 A. It's a big transcript. I would
    23 have to review it.
    24 Q. You don't know that?
    25 A. Who went to bed first?


    1 Q. Yeah.
    2 A. In the Ramsey family?
    3 Q. Yeah, between John and Patsy.
    4 A. I would have to review my report
    5 or I would have to review the transcript of
    6 that Q and A.
    7 Q. How about do you know as you sit
    8 here today who got up first that morning?
    9 MR. DIAMOND: According to John
    10 Ramsey?
    11 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) What the Boulder
    12 Police Department concluded. In your -- let
    13 me tell you in your description of how
    14 JonBenet Ramsey was killed, what was your
    15 position about whether Patsy Ramsey was in
    16 bed or out of bed that morning when John
    17 Ramsey got up?
    18 A. Well, without reviewing multiple
    19 transcripts and reports, I don't recall the
    20 -- the Ramseys made several inconsistent
    21 statements --
    22 Q. About who got up first?
    23 A. If I could finish my answer.
    24 Q. Well, if you could stay on track,
    25 it would be helpful.


    1 MR. DIAMOND: Finish your answer.
    2 MR. WOOD: Please make it
    3 responsive to my question about the issue
    4 about who got out of bed first that morning.
    5 MR. DIAMOND: If you find his
    6 answer to be non responsive, your remedy, I
    7 believe, under the Federal Rules is to move
    8 to strike it and I believe that --
    9 MR. WOOD: I appreciate you
    10 informing me of the Federal Rules. Now I
    11 know that you do know that some of things
    12 you're doing is not in accordance with the
    13 Federal Rules in terms of your statements on
    14 the record.
    15 MR. DIAMOND: I'm only trying to
    16 do you a favor.
    17 MR. WOOD: Thank you. I don't
    18 need your favors, but I appreciate them
    19 anyway.
    20 MR. DIAMOND: Is the question
    21 withdrawn or can he finish his answer?
    22 MR. WOOD: I want to go back and
    23 make sure we're on task by restating it. So
    24 I'll withdraw it and restate it.
    25 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I'm asking you,


    1 Mr. Thomas, what was your position in your
    2 description of this child's murder as to
    3 whether Patsy Ramsey was in bed or out of
    4 bed when John Ramsey woke the morning of
    5 December 26, 1996?
    6 A. From John Ramsey's account?
    7 Q. I'm asking you, sir, what was your
    8 position in your description of this child's
    9 murder as to whether Patsy Ramsey was in bed
    10 or out of bed when John Ramsey woke the
    11 morning of December 26th?
    12 A. I believe I write in my hypothesis
    13 that she was out of bed.
    14 Q. She would have to be, wouldn't
    15 she? If you believe that John Ramsey, as
    16 you say you do, is not in any way involved,
    17 you would have to believe a couple of things,
    18 that she had not gone to bed when John went
    19 to bed, and that when John woke up, she was
    20 already -- she was not in bed.
    21 And you would have to believe one
    22 other thing, wouldn't you, detective, former
    23 detective, that John Ramsey didn't hear the
    24 scream at midnight, right?
    25 A. You have a series of five phrases


    1 and questions --
    2 Q. Let me break them down one at a
    3 time. Listen carefully to me. Under your
    4 position of the description of this child's
    5 murder, John Ramsey did not hear the screams
    6 described by Melody Stanton, right?
    7 A. He never indicated, as far as I
    8 know, that he heard the scream of a child.
    9 Q. If he was as you say he was,
    10 totally uninvolved in the murder of his
    11 daughter, he didn't hear the scream, did he,
    12 because if he had heard the scream, you would
    13 have expected that he would have reacted to
    14 it or been certainly willing to tell you
    15 about it?
    16 MR. DIAMOND: Objection.
    17 Argumentative. You may answer.
    18 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) If he's innocent
    19 as you say he is?
    20 MR. DIAMOND: Objection.
    21 Argumentative. You may answer.
    22 A. One could speculate that he would
    23 have heard a scream from within the house.
    24 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You will concede
    25 that in fact Melody Stanton may be right that


    1 the scream occurred and that John Ramsey did
    2 not hear it, you would concede that as a
    3 possibility supported by your description of
    4 the events, right?
    5 A. It is a possibility, yes.
    6 Q. And it is more consistent with
    7 your statements about John Ramsey's
    8 uninvolvement than it would be consistent with
    9 the idea that he was involved; can we agree
    10 on that?
    11 A. I don't understand your question.
    12 MR. DIAMOND: I don't either.
    13 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Do you understand
    14 it, just so we make sure?
    15 MR. RAWLS: Got it, I'm on it.
    16 MR. WOOD: Thank you. I kind of
    17 figured that nobody on that side of the table
    18 would understand it but everybody on this
    19 side would.
    20 MR. DIAMOND: Can we ask Sean?
    21 MR. SMITH: I think Sean has
    22 already taken his position that he doesn't
    23 understand any of my questions. I've dealt
    24 with him too long. He's never going to
    25 acknowledge that any of them are


    1 understandable.
    2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) When was Steven
    3 Pitt hired?
    4 A. I don't know if Pitt came to the
    5 investigation through the district attorney's
    6 office or through Sergeant Wickman but I
    7 recall Mr. -- or Dr. Pitt being on scene or
    8 being in Boulder, being involved with the
    9 investigation was it summer of 1997 maybe. I
    10 don't know for sure.
    11 Q. Was there any plan or strategy on
    12 the part of Boulder Police Department or any
    13 other law enforcement agencies to try to put
    14 pressure on the Ramseys through the public?
    15 A. I think so.
    16 Q. And wasn't that part of what
    17 Steven Pitt was there to do?
    18 A. I don't know what his employment
    19 agreement or what his motivations were for
    20 being there, but he certainly offered advice.
    21 Q. On that issue?
    22 A. Yes.
    23 Q. And isn't it true that Lou Smit's
    24 approach to build a bridge with the Ramseys
    25 really was in conflict with the Boulder


    1 Police Department's strategy of putting public
    2 pressure on them?
    3 A. Yes.
    4 Q. And the FBI was involved, Bill
    5 Hagmaier, who I happened to know from Richard
    6 Jewell's case?
    7 A. Great guy.
    8 Q. Yeah, wrong on Richard Jewell,
    9 wrong on Ramsey, that's consistent.
    10 Mr. Hagmaier was involved in the formulation
    11 of this plan of public pressure on the
    12 Ramseys, wasn't he?
    13 A. I believe there were discussions
    14 with the FBI, yes, about how to exert some
    15 public pressure on people who are not
    16 cooperating, yes.
    17 Q. Part of that was to try to
    18 portray them clearly to the public as being
    19 uncooperative and therefor appearing to be
    20 possibly involved in the death of their
    21 daughter, right?
    22 A. I think it was two different
    23 things. I don't think they were necessarily
    24 trying to further paint them as uncooperative.
    25 I think they were using the media to get


    1 them back in to help us with the case.
    2 Q. Were they also thinking that they
    3 might use the media to apply pressure so that
    4 there might be a possibility that one of the
    5 parents might confess involvement in the
    6 crime? Was that ever discussed?
    7 A. That may have been -- that may
    8 have been some motivations.
    9 Q. Do you believe from your
    10 recollections that that was discussed?
    11 A. I wouldn't disagree with it. I
    12 don't have any concise, clear recollection of
    13 a conversation like that.
    14 Q. Did you ever review reports of the
    15 officers that were with John and Patsy Ramsey
    16 on a 24-seven basis from the time of the
    17 discovery of JonBenet's murder up until the
    18 time they left to go to Atlanta for her
    19 burial? Did those officers provide the
    20 department with reports?
    21 A. At least some did, yes.
    22 Q. Did those reports contain
    23 discussions of the Ramseys' actions, conduct,
    24 and just conversations?
    25 A. Yes.


    1 Q. Those officers were there not only
    2 to possibly protect the Ramseys; they were
    3 there clearly also to have the Ramseys under
    4 24-seven surveillance to ascertain what they
    5 might say that might be incriminatory, right?
    6 A. Some of that; most of it was
    7 prior to my involvement in the case so I
    8 don't know what their instruction was.
    9 Q. What do you believe from your
    10 review of the records in terms of the reports
    11 that these officers compiled?
    12 A. Certainly 24-seven security but
    13 these officers weren't going to ignore any
    14 statements or comments by anyone that may be
    15 incriminating.
    16 Q. These officers weren't sitting
    17 outside the door guarding the house. They
    18 were literally, as you know from the reports,
    19 they were right there in the room with the
    20 Ramseys, right next to them 24-seven, weren't
    21 they?
    22 A. I believe so.
    23 Q. Which points a little bit more
    24 towards surveillance than guarding them,
    25 doesn't it, sir?


    1 A. In your mind maybe; I don't know,
    2 I wasn't there.
    3 Q. What about in your mind when you
    4 reviewed the reports particularly since you
    5 had the benefit of the substance of what
    6 these officers were saying?
    7 A. As I said, it's my belief that
    8 they were there 24-seven as security but also
    9 they certainly weren't going to ignore any
    10 statements. You might ask John Eller about
    11 that.
    12 Q. Well, if I have the opportunity he
    13 and a lot of others I would ask. You don't
    14 know who ordered the guards 24-seven, do you,
    15 or the surveillance 24-seven, whichever the
    16 case may be, or some combination of it?
    17 A. I think John Eller.
    18 Q. And from your review of the
    19 reports, do you have a recollection of seeing
    20 anything unusual about the family's comments
    21 or conduct from these 24-seven police officers
    22 who were filing reports about them?
    23 A. Yes, I remember they included in
    24 their narrative verbatim quotes made by the
    25 Ramseys and others.


    1 Q. Do you recall any of those quotes?
    2 A. I remember, I think it was in
    3 Chromiak's report about Patsy and her sisters
    4 praying, in another report Patsy making a
    5 comment that she didn't want to live anymore,
    6 didn't have a reason to live anymore. The
    7 comings and goings of the Ramseys, just a
    8 general recollection along those lines.
    9 Q. Nothing in that that I'm hearing
    10 that sounds incriminatory, wouldn't you agree?
    11 A. Again, without reviewing the
    12 reports, that's what comes to me off the top
    13 of my mind.
    14 Q. Let me ask you about that. How
    15 many cases have you been involved in where
    16 you were analyzing the demeanor and conduct
    17 of parents who had a child found murdered in
    18 their home; what was your experience in that
    19 type of a case?
    20 A. None.
    21 Q. Do you have any experience, formal
    22 training, in how psychologically or otherwise
    23 one expects a parent to grieve when a child
    24 has been murdered?
    25 A. No.


    1 Q. You met many times with Fleet
    2 White, didn't you?
    3 A. I did.
    4 Q. And it was your responsibility and
    5 I'm sure you carried it out in terms of
    6 reporting because I think you get the record
    7 so far at least as of August of 1998 you had
    8 filed more reports than anybody on this case,
    9 did you know that?
    10 A. I believe so.
    11 Q. And every time you met with Fleet
    12 White either because he was and he was a
    13 suspect himself, was he not?
    14 A. Again, that ambiguous suspect
    15 label, yes.
    16 Q. And either because he was a
    17 suspect as that term is used by the Boulder
    18 Police Department or because he was a
    19 witness, each and every time you met with him
    20 and had discussions with him it was your duty
    21 and responsibility to prepare a report about
    22 it, true?
    23 A. Not necessarily.
    24 Q. Why not?
    25 A. Well, initially he wasn't my


    1 assignment. I think Linda Ardnt shouldered a
    2 lot of that. And then after she was removed
    3 from the case, Detective Jane Harmer --
    4 Q. I'm not asking about Harmer. I'm
    5 asking about you, Mr. Thomas. I don't need
    6 to know about Harmer and Arndt. They can
    7 answer themselves. I want to know if you
    8 made reports on each of your meetings with
    9 Mr. White. That's my question. Maybe you
    10 didn't understand that one.
    11 MR. WOOD: Despite that
    12 interruption, you may continue with your
    13 answer.
    14 THE DEPONENT: Thank you.
    15 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yeah, answer about
    16 your contacts with Mr. White and whether you
    17 made reports on each of those or not?
    18 MR. DIAMOND: You asked him why.
    19 He was explain' -- answering the why
    20 question.
    21 MR. WOOD: I asked him why --
    22 you're right. I asked him why he did not
    23 make a report, why he did not make a report.
    24 MR. DIAMOND: Thank you. And
    25 he's about to tell you that if you just let


    1 him finish.
    2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I assume what
    3 you're telling me is because of Arndt and
    4 Harmer somehow what they did, that's why you
    5 didn't do reports?
    6 MR. DIAMOND: Why don't you listen
    7 to the answer, then you won't have to assume.
    8 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Why don't you
    9 answer my question about why you didn't
    10 prepare reports when you had contacts with
    11 Mr. White and then we can move to another
    12 question.
    13 MR. DIAMOND: You can now finish
    14 your answer, if you haven't completed it.
    15 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Maybe now you can
    16 answer.
    17 A. Detective Harmer inherited I think
    18 the Fleet and Priscilla White assignment, if
    19 you will, and was friends with them,
    20 compassionate to them trying to do her job as
    21 a police detective. When she introduced me
    22 then at some later date to the Whites, I
    23 completed and prepared reports on contacts,
    24 meetings, interviews that I felt were relevant
    25 at the time certainly and did so concerning


    1 the Whites. But every time I either spoke
    2 or met with these people, no, I did not
    3 complete a written report.
    4 Q. Give me your best recollection
    5 percentage-wise of how many times
    6 percentage-wise you think you may have
    7 prepared reports with meetings with Fleet
    8 White or Priscilla White, half the time, 75
    9 percent of the time, 90 percent of the time,
    10 what is your best estimate?
    11 A. I don't know how many reports I
    12 completed and I don't know how many times I
    13 met with them, but completed several reports
    14 I'm sure concerning the Whites and met with
    15 them a number of more times in which I
    16 didn't. So half, a quarter, I don't know.
    17 Q. So there may be as many as half
    18 to 75 percent or 25 to 50 percent of the
    19 times you met with them where we couldn't
    20 find a report and find out what you all
    21 discussed or what they said to you?
    22 A. As I said, I don't know. I'm
    23 trying to answer your question as far as a
    24 percentage goes.
    25 Q. I take it if they gave you any


    1 significant information as it would apply to
    2 the investigation of JonBenet's murder you
    3 would have prepared a report, true?
    4 A. And I did at times.
    5 Q. So we can at least know that any
    6 meeting you had with Priscilla White or Fleet
    7 White by phone, in person or otherwise, if
    8 there was any significant information about
    9 the case, you would have prepared a report,
    10 true?
    11 A. Most likely, yes.
    12 Q. Why would you not, if they had
    13 given you significant information about the
    14 case, why would you not prepare a report?
    15 A. Well, again at the time and
    16 standing in those shoes, you know, three,
    17 four years ago, if it was significant at the
    18 time and I brought it back to the police
    19 department and it was significant, yes,
    20 absolutely I think I would prepare a report.
    21 Q. Fleet White tell you that when he
    22 was downstairs in the basement with John
    23 Ramsey that John Ramsey went into the wine
    24 cellar room and turned on what he called a
    25 neon light and then cried out, my baby; did


    1 Fleet White tell you that?
    2 A. As to the matter of flipping on
    3 the light --
    4 Q. Yes, sir.
    5 A. -- yeah, I don't recall that.
    6 Q. Do you have any knowledge as you
    7 sit here today to deny it?
    8 A. I would look at my report before
    9 I gave you a definitive answer.
    10 Q. Whose idea was it to go down to
    11 the basement first after Linda Arndt suggested
    12 to Fleet White that she ought to keep John
    13 busy and they could go search the house.
    14 And as I recall, Fleet White didn't really
    15 want to go tell John that himself and asked
    16 Linda Arndt to suggest it to him. Does that
    17 scenario sound familiar to you and accurate?
    18 A. No.
    19 Q. Not at all?
    20 A. No, sir.
    21 Q. How is it inaccurate?
    22 A. Detective Arndt's description of
    23 that was that she gathered Fleet White to
    24 occupy a distracted John Ramsey to keep his
    25 mind busy and instructed him to search the


    1 house in her words from top to bottom. Upon
    2 which time Arndt's recollection to me was
    3 that it was Ramsey who led the two men
    4 downstairs.
    5 Q. What was Fleet White's recollection
    6 to you about who made the decision to start
    7 down in the basement?
    8 A. I don't know that -- again,
    9 without reviewing my reports and my interview
    10 with Fleet, but that's not today, consistent
    11 -- no, Fleet White hasn't indicated to me
    12 that he was the leader going downstairs.
    13 Q. Are you telling me if Linda Arndt
    14 says, listen, I want you two guys to go over
    15 here and I want you to search this house
    16 from top to bottom, you think that was -- is
    17 to be interpreted as saying I want you to
    18 start at the top and go to the bottom or
    19 does that really say I want you to search
    20 this entire place? What do you think is the
    21 more reasonable way to interpret that
    22 statement search the house top to bottom?
    23 A. You would have to ask Linda
    24 Arndt --
    25 Q. You said you did?


    1 A. -- but her -- I did and her
    2 comment to me was, quote, From top to bottom
    3 and the indication I took away from it was
    4 that her instruction was to search the house
    5 from top to bottom.
    6 THE DEPONENT: Chuck, can we take
    7 a break?
    8 MR. DIAMOND: When you get to a
    9 convenient stopping point.
    10 MR. WOOD: If he wants it take a
    11 break I'm fine. We will take it right now.
    12 THE DEPONENT: Thank you.
    13 MR. WOOD: Any time you want to
    14 do that, Mr. Thomas, don't hesitate to ask.
    15 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    16 2:57. We're going off the record.
    17 (Recess taken from 2:57 p.m. to
    18 3:05 p.m.)
    19 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    20 3:05. We're back on the record.
    21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, were
    22 the sheets on JonBenet's bed collected on the
    23 26th of December for forensic testing?
    24 A. I was told they were.
    25 Q. And what tests were performed on


    1 them?
    2 A. I don't know. Detective Trujillo
    3 had that assignment.
    4 Q. Was there any test that you're
    5 aware of that indicated the presence of urine
    6 on those sheets?
    7 A. Detective Trujillo imparted to me
    8 that he had learned or believed that there
    9 was not a presumptive test for urine
    10 according to the CBI.
    11 Q. Were they wet?
    12 A. When?
    13 Q. That morning. Did --
    14 A. Unknown.
    15 Q. -- you ask? Did you ask any of
    16 the officers there, hey, by the way, were the
    17 sheets on JonBenet's bed wet? Did you ask
    18 that question of anybody?
    19 A. I did not.
    20 Q. Do you know if anybody else did?
    21 A. I don't know.
    22 Q. You don't know the answer to
    23 whether they were wet or not?
    24 A. I have been told that they were
    25 urine stained.


    1 Q. Who told you they were urine
    2 stained?
    3 A. Detective Trujillo, Detective
    4 Wickman.
    5 Q. Have you seen the photographs of
    6 the sheets?
    7 A. It depends on which photographs
    8 you're talking about.
    9 Q. Of her sheets, of the bed.
    10 MR. DIAMOND: Have you seen any.
    11 A. Crime scene photographs, yes.
    12 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did they say they
    13 could smell urine?
    14 A. I have been told that CBI says,
    15 yes, those sheets which are still in evidence
    16 smell urine stained.
    17 Q. And did they stain because --
    18 well, you don't have kids, but I don't know
    19 if you've ever had a bed-wetting accident but
    20 when you have children one day you'll
    21 probably know this to be true, urine stained
    22 sheets, were these stained, have you seen
    23 them?
    24 A. I have not seen the sheets.
    25 Q. I mean, you write -- you have


    1 written in your book that JonBenet wet the
    2 bed. What I want to know is what evidence
    3 supports that statement that you are aware of
    4 and that you found out about?
    5 A. Urine stained sheets, the plastic
    6 bed fitting and the diapers halfway out of
    7 the cabinet.
    8 Q. The diapers had urine on them?
    9 A. That's not what I said.
    10 Q. Well, I'm -- diaper halfway out of
    11 the cabinet shows that the sheets were wet or
    12 that she wet the bed?
    13 A. No, I think you asked me what led
    14 me to believe that she may have wet the bed.
    15 Q. Well, I mean it seems to me that
    16 the answer is pretty simple. Did you ever
    17 go look at the sheets? They were there for
    18 your viewing if you wanted to, weren't they?
    19 A. No, they were at CBI.
    20 Q. You could have picked up the phone
    21 and asked somebody at CBI about the test on
    22 them, couldn't you?
    23 A. No, Detective Trujillo told us.
    24 Q. Did you ever see the written
    25 report on that finding by CBI?


    1 A. I don't know that CBI did a
    2 report on whether or not the sheets were
    3 urine stained.
    4 Q. Surely you're not telling me that
    5 the CBI's forensic testers performed, the only
    6 test was to smell and look at the sheets?
    7 A. As I said, I have been told that
    8 there is not a presumptive test for urine.
    9 Q. How about for the substances that
    10 make up or are found in urine?
    11 A. I have no training or knowledge of
    12 that.
    13 Q. How big was the area of the
    14 sheets where they were urine stained or wet?
    15 A. I don't know.
    16 Q. Isn't there something that
    17 describes that, a report?
    18 A. Urine stained sheets according to
    19 Trujillo.
    20 Q. Take a look at page 146 of your
    21 book, please. Down at the paragraph that
    22 starts "John Meyer." Do you follow me?
    23 A. Yes.
    24 Q. "John Meyer, the Boulder County
    25 coroner, had barely begun his autopsy findings


    1 before Lee questioned the urine stains found
    2 on the crotch of the long-john pants and the
    3 panties beneath them." Have I read that
    4 correctly?
    5 A. Yes.
    6 Q. To put this into context, this
    7 would have been during the VIP explanation or
    8 conference, right?
    9 A. No, I don't believe so.
    10 Q. I'm sorry, when do you believe
    11 this event took place where Meyer was going
    12 through the autopsy findings where Henry Lee
    13 was present?
    14 A. I believe this was in 1997 at the
    15 Boulder Police Department.
    16 Q. Do you know when in 1997?
    17 A. My best guess would be maybe
    18 March, February.
    19 Q. Reading on. "Were there
    20 corresponding stains on the bed sheets? We
    21 didn't know, although when the crime became a
    22 murder instead of a kidnapping, those sheets
    23 should have been promptly collected for
    24 testing." Have I read that correctly?
    25 A. Yes.


    1 Q. Well, you didn't know in February,
    2 are you telling me that you found out
    3 subsequent in time that the sheets were wet?
    4 When did you find out,
    5 Mr. Thomas --
    6 MR. DIAMOND: Go ahead.
    7 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Let me -- why
    8 don't you just tell me, when did you first
    9 find out that the sheets were wet?
    10 A. I do not think the sheets were
    11 collected promptly. I think it was after the
    12 fact. And one of the questions of this
    13 investigation was that no one had checked the
    14 bed on the morning of the 26th prior to a
    15 wet bed possibly drying whether or not the
    16 bed was wet. But the sheets nonetheless were
    17 collected and described to me as being urine
    18 stained and just recently saw something
    19 corroborating that when Mr. Smit appeared on
    20 the Today Show and there was a comment from
    21 the CBI about that.
    22 Q. Traces of creatinine were found;
    23 is that what you're talking about?
    24 A. I don't think that is what they
    25 said on the NBC show.


    1 Q. What did they say?
    2 A. I think it said a CBI source said
    3 the sheets were or appeared to be urine
    4 stained.
    5 Q. Let's go back and find out not so
    6 much what NBC was talking about. Let's find
    7 out what the police knew. Were the sheets
    8 collected on December 26th, 1996 or not?
    9 A. They were -- I don't know. I
    10 wasn't there.
    11 Q. What did you find out about it?
    12 A. That at some point during the ten
    13 days subsequent to December 26, 1996, when
    14 the house was a crime scene, those sheets
    15 were collected.
    16 Q. At such time as they would have,
    17 if wet, been dry; is that what you're telling
    18 me?
    19 A. Possibly.
    20 Q. What was your understanding as to
    21 Chris Wolf's employment at the time you first
    22 began to investigate him in January of 1997?
    23 A. Again, as I said, just what Jackie
    24 Dilson had supplied verbally.
    25 Q. What was that?


    1 A. And that was, I think she
    2 described him as either a current or a
    3 one-time exotic dancer.
    4 Q. What did she say that meant? Did
    5 you say what does an exotic dancer do, Ms.
    6 Dilson; did you ask her that?
    7 A. No; I assumed it was a stripper.
    8 Q. Did you ever to your knowledge
    9 with the Boulder Police Department while
    10 thoroughly investigating Mr. Wolf ever obtain
    11 any indication that he might have been
    12 involved in illegal sexual acts for money?
    13 A. Again, he wasn't cooperative with
    14 me and Gosage in our attempt, so I don't
    15 know that.
    16 Q. But you stayed on him for a year
    17 according to your book?
    18 A. He remained on this list, if you
    19 will, for approximately a year.
    20 Q. And you stayed on him because you
    21 put up with Jackie Dilson for a year you
    22 said in your book, didn't you?
    23 A. Two parts, yes, I put up with
    24 Jackie Dilson for a year, but Chris Wolf was
    25 -- that assignment was reassigned.


    1 Q. Well, but again relying on your
    2 other police officers, did you ever learn
    3 anything about any information compiled by the
    4 thorough investigation efforts on Chris Wolf
    5 that would in any way indicate that Mr. Wolf
    6 might have performed such acts as, let's say,
    7 go into an all-male strip party and allowing
    8 members at the party, men, to perform oral
    9 sex on him?
    10 A. No, if you're suggesting if I was
    11 aware that there were allegations that
    12 Mr. Wolf was engaged in male prostitution or
    13 hustling, I was unaware of that until now.
    14 Q. I'm not making an allegation. I'm
    15 asking you what your investigation found. I
    16 am asking you if there was any indication of
    17 any such conduct by Mr. Wolf. Any indication
    18 that Mr. Wolf ever worked at a photography
    19 company where he took pictures of children,
    20 team sports ages as young as four to 15, 14,
    21 15 years of age; did you get any information
    22 about that?
    23 A. Again, I was not successful with
    24 my attempts at interviewing Mr. Wolf, so, no,
    25 I did not know that.


    1 Q. Did you ever ask -- in the
    2 thorough investigation, though, that your
    3 officers that you rely on conducted, did you
    4 ever find out whether there was any
    5 indication that Mr. Wolf might be a user of
    6 illegal drugs at the time frame of '94, '95,
    7 '96?
    8 A. Again, I have told you, I don't
    9 know the breadth or depth of Weinheimer's
    10 investigation prior to clearing him.
    11 Q. But relying on Weinheimer in this
    12 case and others as you did, right --
    13 A. (Deponent nods head.)
    14 Q. -- you would have fully expected
    15 Detective Weinheimer in a thorough
    16 investigation to get those kinds of
    17 information, or at least to get details about
    18 Mr. Wolf's lifestyle and prior employment and
    19 questions about whether he used drugs. Those
    20 would be part of a thorough investigation
    21 into this man's background, wouldn't they,
    22 sir?
    23 A. He may have.
    24 Q. Isn't that what you expected him
    25 to do?


    1 A. Possibly unless he had other
    2 reasons to discount Mr. Wolf.
    3 Q. Well, sir, if you had been in
    4 charge of Mr. Wolf's investigation that you
    5 say you were not, if he had been assigned to
    6 you, you would have gone back and done that
    7 type of a thorough background investigation,
    8 wouldn't you?
    9 A. Not necessarily, Mr. Wood. If,
    10 for example, in the first day, a detective
    11 was able to corroborate an alibi for
    12 Mr. Wolf, then you likely would not have gone
    13 to all this extra trouble.
    14 Q. Except here you know that would be
    15 impossible since the only alibi he could have
    16 offered would be to have been in the house
    17 with a woman who thought he was involved in
    18 the murder?
    19 A. No. Because Ms. Dilson made that
    20 allegation. I did not have his side of the
    21 story. He may very well have put himself at
    22 a different location with an independent
    23 witness.
    24 Q. Apparently that hadn't happened
    25 here because you know that into 1998 Mr. Wolf


    1 was still being investigated by the Boulder
    2 Police Department as a suspect in this case
    3 giving non-testimonial evidence, hair, fiber,
    4 handwriting, right?
    5 A. Correct.
    6 Q. That would indicate the alibi
    7 didn't get him off the hook in terms of
    8 investigation for over a year, wouldn't it,
    9 sir?
    10 A. Correct.
    11 MR. DIAMOND: You're assuming
    12 there was an alibi. I don't know if there
    13 is any mention of that --
    14 MR. WOOD: Yeah, I'm just
    15 following up on the question of whether he
    16 speculated there might be an alibi. Listen,
    17 we don't need to waste time, you know.
    18 You've got somewhere to be at 6:30 in terms
    19 of some friends picking you up. Let's go
    20 ahead.
    21 MR. DIAMOND: Thank you.
    22 MR. WOOD: I'm trying to make
    23 that time frame.
    24 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you interview
    25 Linda Arndt at any time subsequent to the


    1 murder of JonBenet Ramsey?
    2 A. Successfully and at times
    3 unsuccessfully, yes.
    4 Q. In the successful interviews, did
    5 you prepare reports?
    6 A. No.
    7 Q. Would that be because there was
    8 nothing significant said to you during those
    9 interviews by her?
    10 A. Typically police don't prepare, at
    11 least it's been my experience, prepare reports
    12 when simply speaking to or asking for a
    13 clarification from a fellow officer.
    14 Q. I was talking about an interview
    15 more than a clarification.
    16 A. No, did I ever sit down with her
    17 for a formal interview? No.
    18 Q. Did you ever try to?
    19 A. No, when I had questions, it was
    20 fairly routine just to go to the detective in
    21 question and make your inquiry.
    22 Q. Has Fleet White ever made any
    23 statement to you about his opinion on who
    24 killed JonBenet Ramsey?
    25 A. Mr. White has always been very


    1 careful with his language around me, as is
    2 his wife and I don't know that I could sit
    3 here and say today that he has come out and
    4 made a declaration as to who he believes
    5 killed JonBenet Ramsey. But the tone and
    6 inferences of some of these conversations made
    7 it fairly clear to me.
    8 Q. You think you understood from the
    9 tone and inferences what he was trying to say
    10 but not saying directly; is that your
    11 testimony?
    12 A. I think I believe that I know who
    13 Fleet has in mind as the offender in this
    14 case.
    15 Q. Why don't you just ask him?
    16 A. I did not, that I recall, ask him
    17 outright who he thought did it.
    18 Q. I mean, you've talked to him since
    19 you left the Boulder Police Department,
    20 haven't you?
    21 A. Yes.
    22 Q. When is the last time you talked
    23 with Fleet White?
    24 A. I think I last saw them in
    25 probably July or August of 2000 and then


    1 again had a pleasant hallway conversation in
    2 Jefferson County, Colorado, outside a
    3 courtroom in the last couple months.
    4 Q. What was the nature of your seeing
    5 him in July of 2000?
    6 A. A personal visit.
    7 Q. Personal, but tell me, please, if
    8 you would, the nature of the visit?
    9 A. I think I had finished a carpentry
    10 job up on -- in that part of the world and
    11 in the late afternoon or early evening, drove
    12 by their house to say hello and they invited
    13 me to stay for dinner.
    14 Q. Drinks?
    15 A. I don't really drink.
    16 Q. Whether you really drink or not --
    17 most people either drink or they don't drink.
    18 I don't know about I don't really drink.
    19 That sounds like you might occasionally take
    20 a glass of wine or drink, I don't know. Do
    21 you?
    22 A. I won't drink three beers in a
    23 year's time.
    24 Q. Did you have a glass of wine with
    25 the Whites that night you had dinner?


    1 A. No.
    2 Q. Did they?
    3 A. I don't know whether or not they
    4 had alcohol.
    5 Q. How many times do you think you've
    6 seen them on a social basis since you left
    7 the department in August of 1998?
    8 A. Two or three maybe.
    9 Q. And one was the dinner in July of
    10 2000. What were the other two occasions?
    11 A. Post resignation in August of '98,
    12 maybe a time or two in 1999, I'm not sure.
    13 Q. What were the occasions? You had
    14 dinner one time. What were the other social
    15 occasions; do you recall what they were?
    16 A. That was the only time I ever ate
    17 with the people.
    18 Q. What were the other social
    19 occasions, sir, what did you do with them?
    20 A. Probably just stopped by their
    21 house and said hello. I didn't meet them at
    22 other locations.
    23 Q. Do you consider Fleet and
    24 Priscilla White personal friends of yours?
    25 A. I don't know how I would


    1 characterize these people who I have a lot of
    2 compassion for.
    3 Q. Do you know what you consider
    4 someone -- do you know what it is to
    5 consider someone a personal friend of yours?
    6 A. Yes.
    7 Q. Do they fall in that category or
    8 not?
    9 A. It's an unusual characterization.
    10 I have never had a relationship with somebody
    11 that I met wearing one hat and continued that
    12 in this context. So if you're asking me am
    13 I friendly and would I consider myself
    14 friends with these people, yes.
    15 Q. Look at page 25 of your book for
    16 me if you would, please, Mr. Thomas. Right
    17 here (indicating) kind of give you a visual.
    18 MR. DIAMOND: Do you see that,
    19 Darnay?
    20 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) "In the sun room
    21 Patsy Ramsey examined a second-generation
    22 photocopy of the ransom note, a smeary
    23 version that showed little more than the dark
    24 printed words. Rather than commenting on the
    25 words and contents, she told one of her


    1 friends that the note was written on the same
    2 kind of paper she had in her kitchen."
    3 Have I read that correctly?
    4 A. Yes.
    5 Q. Who was the friend that she told
    6 that to?
    7 A. This was from Barb Fernie.
    8 Q. And then "Police would wonder how
    9 she could tell since they saw no
    10 similarities." Have I read that correctly?
    11 A. Yes.
    12 Q. You're talking about police saw no
    13 similarities between the second-generation
    14 photocopy and the actual ransom note itself?
    15 A. No, trying to source a Xerox copy
    16 back to a particular note pad in the kitchen.
    17 Q. The police couldn't tell the --
    18 couldn't see the similarity of the Xerox copy
    19 and the note pad, right?
    20 A. Right.
    21 Q. They would wonder how Patsy could
    22 tell there was a similarity, right?
    23 A. How one would make that
    24 suggestion, how a Xerox photocopy of a rather
    25 bland, generic piece of paper on which the


    1 ransom note was written may have had its
    2 genesis from a tablet in the kitchen.
    3 Q. Not that it had its genesis, but
    4 that it was similar, right? It was written
    5 on the same kind of paper?
    6 A. The Xerox copy did not leave me
    7 with that impression, that it did not strike
    8 me that way.
    9 Q. Did that seem suspicious to you of
    10 Patsy Ramsey?
    11 A. A bit.
    12 Q. Did you ever stop and consider
    13 that she might have made the comment about
    14 the similarity because she, sir, had seen the
    15 original of the ransom note prior in time?
    16 A. But I think in this context she
    17 was looking at a photocopy.
    18 Q. So you're telling me that she was
    19 trying to say that from the photocopy she
    20 thought that it was similar. You don't think
    21 that she might have had the benefit of
    22 knowing what the actual note looked like in
    23 terms of the paper? Would you concede that
    24 maybe that might be an inaccurate assumption
    25 on your part, sir, you know, what you thought


    1 was suspicious wasn't suspicious at all?
    2 A. No, I'm simply stating what struck
    3 the detectives in wonder is we thought that
    4 Barb Fernie's statement was unusual, given
    5 this context.
    6 Q. On pages 26 and 27 of your book,
    7 starting with Detective Arndt -- well,
    8 actually it starts at page 25 "Time was
    9 passing swiftly." For the next couple of
    10 pages, and the content is not so much what
    11 I'm focusing on. I just want to know, you
    12 talk a lot about Arndt and observations that
    13 she made. Was the basis for those comments
    14 that you made about her reports?
    15 A. Primarily, because at one point
    16 she discontinued talking to some of us.
    17 Q. She actually did more than that.
    18 She told you that she didn't have any
    19 recollection anymore about what she saw that
    20 day, didn't she?
    21 A. She made that statement or
    22 something very close to that.
    23 Q. Page 35, Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, do
    24 you know who -- did you ever interview Linda
    25 Hoffmann-Pugh?


    1 A. No, sir.
    2 Q. You never had the opportunity to
    3 judge her credibility yourself to see whether
    4 she might, in your opinion, like Jackie
    5 Dilson might be somewhat unstable or not
    6 credible?
    7 A. I don't know that I've ever met
    8 Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, no.
    9 Q. Do you know how many days a week
    10 Linda Hoffmann-Pugh worked for the Ramsey
    11 family?
    12 A. Without reviewing reports, no, I
    13 don't.
    14 Q. Do you know what time of the
    15 morning she would get there and how long she
    16 would stay?
    17 A. Again, without reviewing reports
    18 concerning Ms. Hoffmann-Pugh, I do not.
    19 Q. Do you think you had some of
    20 those reports about Ms. Hoffmann-Pugh in your
    21 materials that you copied and after you left
    22 the department or received from the Boulder
    23 Police Department after you left the
    24 department?
    25 A. I don't know.


    1 Q. We can only tell when we find
    2 them, right, that would tell us more
    3 information about what you know about Linda
    4 Hoffmann-Pugh, true?
    5 A. Or again if we can work our way
    6 into the police department.
    7 Q. Did you ever interview Shirley
    8 Brady, who had been a housekeeper for the
    9 Ramseys for almost four years?
    10 A. The name sounds familiar and if
    11 it's the person I'm thinking of who resided
    12 in Georgia I think Harmer or Gosage conducted
    13 that interview.
    14 Q. They would have prepared a report?
    15 A. I would think so.
    16 Q. Shirley Brady tells me that she
    17 got a phone call and about a five-minute
    18 interview and when she said she made it
    19 pretty clear that the Ramseys weren't in any
    20 way the type of people that could be involved
    21 in this, that the interview ended and she
    22 never heard from anybody again. Does that
    23 sound like a thorough investigation if that's
    24 true?
    25 A. It depends on what the detectives


    1 were doing. I don't know what they were
    2 doing.
    3 Q. Well, you know if you have got to
    4 -- if you're spending a lot of time with
    5 Linda Hoffmann-Pugh who had worked for them
    6 less than two years and only worked part time
    7 and you want to know all about this family's
    8 background, a thorough investigation, wouldn't
    9 you believe, sir, from your experience as a
    10 police officer that you're going to spend
    11 more than five minutes on the phone with
    12 someone who was a housekeeper for three
    13 years?
    14 A. For some reason in my mind, and I
    15 may be wrong, I don't think Mrs. Brady was
    16 ever in Colorado with the family. There was
    17 apparently nothing that the detective who
    18 interviewed her felt was worth more than
    19 their five minutes. You would have to ask
    20 them.
    21 Q. So you had to be in Colorado with
    22 the family in order to be a significant
    23 witness as to their background?
    24 A. No, not to their background.
    25 Q. That doesn't make any sense, does


    1 it?
    2 A. No.
    3 Q. I didn't think it did. I mean,
    4 you know you all were looking to see if
    5 there was any pathology in this family on
    6 either John Ramsey's part or Patsy Ramsey's
    7 part, right?
    8 A. We did.
    9 Q. And you didn't find any, did you?
    10 A. What do you mean by pathology,
    11 Mr. Wood?
    12 Q. Mr. Thomas, please, you know what
    13 pathology means.
    14 MR. DIAMOND: Don't give him that
    15 tone of voice or I'm going to pick him up
    16 and walk him out of here.
    17 MR. WOOD: If you want to pick
    18 him up and walk him out of here, if you
    19 think you're justified, do so.
    20 MR. DIAMOND: Cut out the sarcasm.
    21 If you have a problem with his answer, move
    22 on to another question.
    23 MR. WOOD: All right. May I ask
    24 my question without your interruption, please?
    25 MR. DIAMOND: You may.


    1 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, please,
    2 do you, sir, not know what I mean when I
    3 asked you whether there was any pathology on
    4 the part of John or Patsy Ramsey from a
    5 criminal investigation standpoint?
    6 A. I simply asked you to explain to
    7 me what you mean by pathology.
    8 Q. As used by the people that discuss
    9 that very term in your investigation. You
    10 knew what they meant, didn't you?
    11 A. I don't think, to answer your
    12 question, that there was anything remarkable
    13 or outstanding as far as what you're
    14 inquiring about. Although, Pitt and others
    15 would describe to us their concerns about the
    16 beauty pageant world and child beauty
    17 pageants, et cetera, if that's what we're
    18 talking about as far as family history.
    19 Q. Drug use, illegal drug use would
    20 be pathology, child abuse would be pathology,
    21 domestic violence would be pathology, right?
    22 A. Yes.
    23 Q. You didn't find anything about
    24 that with respect to this family, did you,
    25 sir, John and Patsy Ramsey?


    1 A. Drug use, child abuse, or spousal
    2 abuse, not that I'm aware of.
    3 Q. Anything along the lines of
    4 pathology that you believe you heard the
    5 investigation found, other than Pitt and
    6 others you say commenting about beauty
    7 pageants?
    8 A. No, there wasn't any sort of
    9 untoward history or certainly no criminal
    10 history that I was made aware of.
    11 Q. When you were in these
    12 presentations, either one or both, wasn't it
    13 discussed that the experts hired by the
    14 Boulder Police Department did not believe that
    15 there was pathology?
    16 A. I don't know to which experts
    17 you're referring.
    18 Q. Well, Dr. Krugman, do you remember
    19 him?
    20 A. Yeah, certainly. Dr. Krugman was
    21 the one who put forth the bed-wetting,
    22 toileting, and rage scenarios.
    23 Q. Ken Lanning of the FBI?
    24 A. I remember Mr. Lanning from
    25 Quantico.


    1 Q. What did Mr. Lanning say with
    2 respect to his expectation in a case like
    3 this in terms of whether you would expect to
    4 find serious pathology or not?
    5 A. I don't recall. I'll refresh
    6 myself at some point I hope with that report.
    7 Q. When you, sir, with all due
    8 respect when you're sitting down to write a
    9 book to state your, as you call it,
    10 hypothesis that Patsy Ramsey murdered her
    11 daughter, I'm just operating under the
    12 assumption that you would have thoroughly
    13 familiarized yourself with the investigation
    14 before committing that type of a statement to
    15 word for profit. Is my assumption wrong?
    16 MR. DIAMOND: This deposition is
    17 not about the authorship of his book.
    18 MR. WOOD: No, it's about his
    19 knowledge of the investigation, sir.
    20 MR. DIAMOND: You can ask him
    21 questions about that.
    22 MR. WOOD: I just did.
    23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Is my assumption
    24 wrong?
    25 MR. DIAMOND: I direct you not to


    1 answer the pending question. The next
    2 question.
    3 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you or did you
    4 not prior to April of 2000 familiarize
    5 yourself fully with the significant findings
    6 of the investigation of John Ramsey and Patsy
    7 Ramsey in connection with the death of
    8 JonBenet, yes or no?
    9 A. I tried to.
    10 Q. Did you feel confident that you
    11 had in fact that familiarity?
    12 A. Was I familiar with the case?
    13 Yes, absolutely.
    14 Q. Well, did all the experts agree
    15 that JonBenet Ramsey was alive at the time of
    16 the injury to her vagina?
    17 A. Again, I don't know what experts
    18 you're referring to but we had --
    19 Q. The ones that you listened to.
    20 A. Let me finish, Mr. Wood.
    21 Q. The ones that your department
    22 hired?
    23 A. At times there was, among experts,
    24 as was to be expected, there was conflict of
    25 opinion. But regarding the prior vaginal


    1 trauma if that's what you're asking about,
    2 this blue ribbon panel of pediatric medical
    3 experts they brought in seemed to me to be
    4 in agreement on some other conclusions.
    5 Q. I'm talking about the acute
    6 vaginal trauma she suffered at the time of
    7 her murder. The agreement was unanimous that
    8 she was alive at the time that that vaginal
    9 trauma was inflicted, true?
    10 A. Yes, I believe that's correct.
    11 Q. Now, tell me who the members were
    12 of what you call the blue ribbon panel of
    13 pediatric experts, give me their names,
    14 please.
    15 A. I think the FBI recommended --
    16 Q. Just their names, not the
    17 recommendation?
    18 A. -- and tried to -- and he
    19 participated, was a doctor from California,
    20 Dr. John McCann, from Miami was Dr., I
    21 believe it's, Valerie Rau and the third
    22 gentleman from St. Louis, I think he was the
    23 Dean of the Children's Hospital or the
    24 pediatrics at Glenn Cannon and I don't recall
    25 his name offhand.


    1 Q. Anybody else on this panel?
    2 A. On and off, we saw one of
    3 Hunter's advisors, which was Krugman.
    4 Q. Was he on the blue ribbon panel
    5 that you keep referring to?
    6 A. Krugman?
    7 Q. Yeah, the blue ribbon panel of
    8 pediatric experts that I asked you about.
    9 Was Krugman on that panel?
    10 A. No.
    11 Q. Okay.
    12 A. I think that panel consisted of
    13 those three individuals.
    14 Q. Take a look, if you would, at
    15 page 45 of your book. Second -- actually,
    16 first full paragraph. "An acquaintance said
    17 that JonBenet was rebelling against appearing
    18 in the child beauty contests. She was being
    19 pushed into the pageants by her mother and
    20 grandmother, said the witness." Who is that
    21 individual?
    22 A. I believe that was Judith
    23 Phillips.
    24 Q. Did you find Judith Phillips to be
    25 credible?


    1 A. At times.
    2 Q. At times she was not credible?
    3 A. No, I think Judith Phillips, like
    4 many others in Boulder, were devastated by
    5 this crime and she had tough moments, I'm
    6 sure.
    7 Q. Do you think John and Patsy Ramsey
    8 had tough moments because they would have
    9 been devastated by the death of their
    10 daughter?
    11 A. They certainly may have.
    12 Q. Page 48, the first full paragraph.
    13 "John was overheard to ask someone quietly,
    14 'Did you get my golf bag?'" Did I read that
    15 correctly?
    16 A. Yes.
    17 Q. Who overheard him ask that
    18 question?
    19 A. I believe that was either John or
    20 Barbara Fernie.
    21 Q. Who did they overhear him ask that
    22 question to? Who was the someone?
    23 A. They could not identify that
    24 party.
    25 Q. And when did that statement, was


    1 it allegedly made?
    2 A. The did you get my golf bag
    3 statement?
    4 Q. Yeah.
    5 A. I think in the days following the
    6 murder.
    7 Q. Do you know how many days after
    8 the murder?
    9 A. No.
    10 Q. And was there ever any concern in
    11 the Boulder Police Department about a
    12 relationship that developed between Barbara
    13 Fernie and Linda Arndt?
    14 A. I think there were concerns about
    15 Arndt that ultimately led to her removal from
    16 this investigation.
    17 Q. My question was, sir, and let me
    18 repeat it for you if it was not clear. Are
    19 you aware of any concerns in the Boulder
    20 Police Department about a relationship that
    21 developed between Barbara Fernie and Linda
    22 Arndt?
    23 A. Yes.
    24 Q. Tell me what the nature of those
    25 concerns were.


    1 A. As I recall, I think that there
    2 was some feeling that Linda Arndt had gone
    3 outside her police hat, so to speak, and was
    4 involving herself emotionally with Barbara
    5 Fernie.
    6 Q. And potentially romantically or
    7 sexually?
    8 A. Never have I heard anything like
    9 that.
    10 Q. Look at page 52, the second full
    11 paragraph, last sentence, "The officer said
    12 she was told by a police intern on duty not
    13 to be concerned because 'the detectives
    14 already know who did it.'" Have I read that
    15 correctly?
    16 A. You have.
    17 Q. Who was the police intern?
    18 A. I don't know.
    19 Q. Who was the officer, Chromiak?
    20 A. As it says.
    21 Q. Who were the detectives?
    22 A. I don't know because this was
    23 prior to my involvement in the case, I
    24 believe.
    25 Q. Did you ever see any lab forensic


    1 test forms filled out as early as December
    2 30, 1996, that under the form area for
    3 suspects had John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey's
    4 name there and no one else's?
    5 A. No, but it wouldn't surprise me.
    6 Q. As early as December 30, 1996,
    7 that would not surprise you, would it, sir?
    8 A. No, with this ambiguous label of
    9 suspect, no.
    10 Q. With that ambiguous label of
    11 suspect it would seem to me there would be a
    12 lot of other people that would be on there
    13 such as Fleet White as of December 30th,
    14 right?
    15 A. Right what, Mr. Wood?
    16 Q. You can't -- I mean, you're trying
    17 to tell me as I understand it, well, you
    18 know, it wouldn't surprise me for John and
    19 Patsy Ramsey's name to appear on the form as
    20 early as December 30th as a suspect because
    21 of the ambiguous use of the term suspect.
    22 Well, you're going to apply the
    23 ambiguous terms equally to all, aren't you?
    24 Shouldn't we see Fleet White? Shouldn't we
    25 see John Fernie? Shouldn't we see


    1 Mr. Barnhill? Shouldn't we see Bill
    2 McReynolds? Shouldn't we see all of those
    3 people as of December 30th, sir, under that
    4 as you now call it ambiguous term suspect?
    5 A. I did not see the report. In
    6 fact, if you see my reports, I think I refer
    7 to them as subjects.
    8 Q. When did you move them from
    9 subjects to suspects?
    10 A. I don't know that I in my reports
    11 listed them as suspects.
    12 Q. How about in your mind's eye, when
    13 did you make the determination that they were
    14 suspects?
    15 A. Well, everybody was a potential
    16 suspect from early on, Mr. Wood.
    17 Q. Everybody?
    18 A. Excuse my use of everybody. There
    19 were a number of people who could be
    20 potential suspects in this case from very
    21 early on.
    22 Q. Bill McReynolds was?
    23 MR. DIAMOND: I'm sorry, could you
    24 -- could I have that reread?
    25 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Bill McReynolds


    1 was, right?
    2 MR. DIAMOND: Thank you.
    3 A. Was a suspect as early as December
    4 30th, 1996?
    5 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yeah.
    6 A. Or shortly thereafter he became an
    7 early suspect.
    8 Q. At what point in time did you say
    9 I think Patsy Ramsey killed her daughter?
    10 A. I think the evidence led me to
    11 those conclusions and further strengthened my
    12 belief in the early months of 1997.
    13 Q. When in 1997, the early months,
    14 what does that mean? Tell me what that
    15 means with some specificity, please, sir.
    16 A. There was not a defining moment in
    17 which the bell rang and I noted the date and
    18 time. Early in 1997 it became more and more
    19 apparent to me that that's where the
    20 abundance of evidence was leading.
    21 Q. And you were heavily influenced in
    22 that determination by the conclusion of John
    23 Foster, weren't you, sir?
    24 A. Don Foster?
    25 Q. Don Foster, yeah.


    1 A. No, he did not come on board for
    2 I think almost another year.
    3 Q. Right. So you had decided in
    4 your mind's eye that Patsy Ramsey killed her
    5 daughter many months before Don Foster made
    6 the appearance as a consultant in the case,
    7 right?
    8 A. Again, Mr. Wood, as I said, I
    9 felt there was an abundance of evidence
    10 pointing in that direction. And that became
    11 -- and others viewed it the same way,
    12 incidentally. And, yes, in those early
    13 months of '97, she looked pretty good for
    14 that.
    15 Q. Yes, sir. Thank you. But that
    16 doesn't answer my question. You had decided
    17 in your mind's eye that Patsy Ramsey killed
    18 her daughter many months before Don Foster
    19 made his appearance as a consultant in the
    20 case, true?
    21 A. I felt that she was the best
    22 suspect, yes, many months prior to Don's
    23 Foster's involvement.
    24 Q. Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 2 is
    25 Mr. Foster's letter to my client, Patsy


    1 Ramsey. Have you seen that letter before?
    2 A. I haven't looked at it yet.
    3 Q. Do you think there was more than
    4 one?
    5 MR. DIAMOND: Can you hold on a
    6 second?
    7 MR. WOOD: Did I call that
    8 Plaintiff's Exhibit 2, it's Defendants'
    9 Exhibit 2, excuse me.
    10 MR. SMITH: I don't have any --
    11 MR. WOOD: I can't hear you. I
    12 can assume the general gist of what you're
    13 saying.
    14 (Pause.)
    15 MR. WOOD: Do you want to go off
    16 the record to save tape?
    17 MR. DIAMOND: No, I will be done
    18 in a second. How are you doing?
    19 THE DEPONENT: Yeah, I'm keeping
    20 up with you on it.
    21 MR. DIAMOND: Do you want to give
    22 him a moment to look at it?
    23 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) If you want to
    24 look at it, we can take a break instead of
    25 wasting tape because I don't want it to count


    1 against my time?
    2 MR. DIAMOND: If you show him a
    3 document he has a right to read it. If you
    4 only come with one we've got to read it one
    5 at a time. This is your time use it the
    6 way you want.
    7 MR. WOOD: Every road goes in two
    8 directions, Mr. --
    9 MR. DIAMOND: Diamond.
    10 MR. WOOD: Diamond, is that your
    11 name? I'm sorry, I forgot it just
    12 momentarily. Why don't we take a five-minute
    13 break and let him read that. I need to go
    14 to the restroom anyway.
    15 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    16 3:48. We're going off the record.
    17 (Recess taken from 3:48 p.m. to
    18 3:53 p.m.)
    19 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    20 3:53. We're back on the record.
    21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Defendants' Exhibit
    22 Number 2, you've had an opportunity to review
    23 it during the break?
    24 A. Yes.
    25 Q. That is what you recall being as


    1 being a true and correct copy of a letter
    2 that was subsequently brought to your
    3 attention at some point in the investigation
    4 that Mr. Foster, Don Foster, had written to
    5 Patsy Ramsey in June of 1997?
    6 A. I had only seen the first page of
    7 that.
    8 Q. Does the first page appear to be
    9 a true and correct copy of that page that
    10 you saw?
    11 A. Yes.
    12 MR. DIAMOND: Did you get an
    13 audible response?
    14 MR. WOOD: I thought he said yes.
    15 Did you get a yes?
    16 THE REPORTER: Yes.
    17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Page 67 of your
    18 book, bottom paragraph "Later a friend who
    19 had come out from Boulder for the services
    20 recalled that she was asked by Patsy to
    21 retrieve the black jeans Patsy had worn ...
    22 the morning of December 26th." Who was that
    23 friend?
    24 A. I believe that was Priscilla
    25 White.


    1 Q. Did you ever consider that perhaps
    2 Patsy Ramsey wanted those jeans because she
    3 wanted some casual clothes and did not at
    4 that time feel like going out and shopping?
    5 A. No, it struck me as unusual, as I
    6 said, to transport a pair of jeans 1500 miles
    7 to Atlanta from Boulder.
    8 Q. You think that was incriminatory?
    9 A. It struck me as odd, Mr. Wood.
    10 Q. Did it strike you as odd that the
    11 Boulder Police Department never made a request
    12 to the Ramsey family to obtain the articles
    13 of clothing that they wore on the 25th of
    14 December for almost a year?
    15 MR. DIAMOND: Are you representing
    16 that is the case?
    17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I think Mr. Thomas
    18 knows that is absolutely the case, don't you?
    19 A. Which question?
    20 Q. That the one that I -- well, the
    21 Boulder Police Department didn't ask John and
    22 Patsy Ramsey for the articles of clothing
    23 they had worn on the 25th of December, 1996
    24 until almost a year later, true?
    25 A. For a long time, that was a


    1 mistake, yes.
    2 Q. Didn't that strike you as odd?
    3 A. That the police did that?
    4 Q. You and the police, you were part
    5 of the case?
    6 A. Yes.
    7 Q. Why did you do it?
    8 A. Why did I do what?
    9 Q. Why didn't you ask the Ramseys to
    10 give you the articles of clothing they wore?
    11 A. In hindsight, that was important.
    12 Q. You had already concluded that
    13 Patsy Ramsey committed the crime before you
    14 even asked for the clothes that she had worn,
    15 true?
    16 A. Those should have been collected
    17 the first day and they weren't.
    18 Q. You had already concluded that
    19 Patsy Ramsey had committed the crime before
    20 you even asked the Ramseys for the clothes
    21 they had worn that night, true?
    22 A. It was my belief that that
    23 evidence that I'm talking about led to Patsy
    24 Ramsey. So yes, she was the best suspect
    25 before we wound up collecting their clothes.


    1 Q. I'm not asking you about who is
    2 the best. I'm talking about you, Steve
    3 Thomas, a lead detective had concluded that
    4 Patsy Ramsey had killed her daughter,
    5 JonBenet, months before you or the Boulder
    6 Police Department even asked for the clothes
    7 that she and her husband were wearing that
    8 night; is that true?
    9 MR. DIAMOND: Asked and answered.
    10 You can answer.
    11 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Can I get an
    12 answer and then we can move on. Am I
    13 correct, sir?
    14 A. That's my belief that she was
    15 involved.
    16 Q. And the timing is correct, right?
    17 A. Prior to the retrieval of the
    18 clothing, yes.
    19 Q. All right. Thank you. It seems
    20 like it was a pretty simple question.
    21 MR. DIAMOND: You wanted to put
    22 your words in his mouth and he didn't want
    23 to swallow them, which is his right.
    24 MR. WOOD: Well, the truth then
    25 one can surmise why one has difficulty


    1 swallowing the truth.
    2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Sir, let me ask
    3 you --
    4 MR. DIAMOND: That's a hot-headed
    5 remark.
    6 MR. WOOD: What?
    7 MR. DIAMOND: That's a hot-headed
    8 remark.
    9 MR. WOOD: Well, I don't think
    10 it's any more hot headed than your comment
    11 made about swallowing the truth and making --
    12 and taking my words?
    13 MR. DIAMOND: Try swallowing the
    14 truth.
    15 MR. WOOD: Your comment, sir,
    16 you're the one that got into the swallowing.
    17 So, you know, if you stay away from there, I
    18 don't need to go there.
    19 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) What happened to
    20 pages 17 through 25 of the pad, do you know,
    21 from where CBI concluded that the ransom note
    22 was written?
    23 A. Are we talking about Patsy's
    24 tablets?
    25 Q. Seventeen through 25 of the tablet


    1 that was given to the police that morning by
    2 John Ramsey because it contained handwriting
    3 by Patsy.
    4 A. Seventeen through 25 I believe
    5 remained unaccounted for.
    6 Q. Was there a note from Bill
    7 McReynolds found torn up in JonBenet's trash
    8 can in her room?
    9 A. I have heard that.
    10 Q. Did you ever check to see if that
    11 were true?
    12 A. I think I was told that it was
    13 some sort of card.
    14 Q. From Bill McReynolds?
    15 A. Yes.
    16 Q. Was it ever fingerprinted, do you
    17 know?
    18 A. Detective Trujillo would know that.
    19 I don't.
    20 Q. Did you ever try to find out?
    21 A. No.
    22 Q. Did you ever try to find out what
    23 the card said?
    24 A. I recall at one time. I don't
    25 now.


    1 Q. What was the object that struck
    2 the blow that fractured JonBenet Ramsey's
    3 skull?
    4 A. I don't know. A blunt object. I
    5 don't believe, at least during the time I was
    6 involved in the investigation, it was
    7 identified.
    8 Q. Were there any forensic tests
    9 conducted to determine the force one would
    10 have to exert on her head to create a
    11 fracture of the magnitude found on autopsy?
    12 A. Are we talking like torque and
    13 foot pound pressure, that sort of thing?
    14 Q. You're the expert it sounds like,
    15 yeah, sure.
    16 A. I'm not. But I'm not familiar
    17 with any tests like that.
    18 Q. There apparently could have been
    19 some I take it?
    20 A. I don't know that.
    21 Q. Did you all get any experts
    22 involved, consultants involved in the Boulder
    23 Police Department to look into that issue?
    24 A. Dr. Spitz in Michigan did some
    25 testing.


    1 Q. Anyone besides Dr. Spitz?
    2 A. Not that I'm aware of. But Dr.
    3 Spitz' testing was trying to determine
    4 potential blunt object instruments that may
    5 have caused that injury.
    6 Q. Not the force or torque or foot
    7 pound pressure?
    8 A. Correct.
    9 Q. Are you aware from your
    10 investigation of any statements by John Ramsey
    11 or Patsy Ramsey that they thought that Fleet
    12 White or Priscilla White or both killed their
    13 daughter JonBenet?
    14 A. Yes, if those transcripts serve
    15 memory correctly, yeah, they cast suspicion on
    16 the Whites, yes.
    17 Q. Well, then, I mean, please, with
    18 all due respect, casting suspicion by saying
    19 that you suspect someone is different than
    20 saying that you believe that they killed your
    21 daughter, can we not agree on that, sir?
    22 A. I believe the Ramseys only sat
    23 down a couple times with --
    24 Q. I didn't ask you that, sir.
    25 A. -- the government and -- please.


    1 MR. DIAMOND: You may finish.
    2 MR. WOOD: You may but I mean at
    3 some point I'm going to have to maybe get
    4 the judge to direct him to answer the
    5 question. She certainly would if in fact he
    6 were in front of her. I didn't ask him
    7 about how many times the Ramseys sat down
    8 with the government. I asked him, please,
    9 with all due respect, casting suspicion by
    10 saying you suspect someone is different than
    11 saying that you believe -- strike that. Let
    12 me go back. Please, with all due respect,
    13 casting suspicion by saying that you suspect
    14 someone is different than saying that you
    15 believe that that person killed your daughter;
    16 can we agree on that, sir.
    17 MR. DIAMOND: And he was answering
    18 that question.
    19 MR. WOOD: Would you answer that
    20 question, Mr. Thomas, and if you do not want
    21 to answer that question then I'm going to
    22 consider upon recess whether I'm going to
    23 adjourn this deposition and get some guidance
    24 today on another occasion to have this
    25 witness quit wasting time by being non


    1 responsive to the question. Why don't you
    2 counsel him on a break here and let's take
    3 two minutes and let me talk to Mr. Rawls
    4 because I'm kind of reaching the end of my
    5 rope with you and him.
    6 MR. DIAMOND: We're not -- we're
    7 going to stay on the record.
    8 MR. WOOD: Let him answer the
    9 question then.
    10 MR. DIAMOND: He may in any way
    11 he sees fit. Do you want the question
    12 reread?
    13 THE DEPONENT: Yeah, please.
    14 MR. DIAMOND: Madam reporter?
    15 MR. WOOD: Ready. Do you want to
    16 read it back to him maybe he'll understand
    17 it. He didn't seem to have this problem
    18 with Mr. Hoffman's questions.
    19 MR. DIAMOND: Could be a
    20 reflection on Mr. Hoffman.
    21 MR. WOOD: Could be a reflection
    22 on woodshedding by the lawyers more
    23 appropriately. I don't think anybody skilled
    24 in litigation is going to have any questions
    25 about what this witness and his lawyers have


    1 done and told him to do. It's pretty
    2 obvious. Thank goodness we have the record
    3 both video and stenographically.
    4 (Page 279, line 23 through page
    5 280, line 2 read.)
    6 A. I think the Ramseys were very
    7 careful in how they cast that suspicion and I
    8 would have to review those transcripts as to
    9 their verbatim language to refresh myself
    10 because as I sit here today, four years
    11 later, I don't recall that.
    12 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You can't answer
    13 that question today, is that what you're
    14 telling me?
    15 A. I don't recall their language, no.
    16 Q. And hence you're telling me today
    17 as you sit here you cannot answer my
    18 question, is that your testimony?
    19 A. And hence, I think I just tried
    20 to answer your question.
    21 Q. Do you use the term and hence
    22 often?
    23 A. No, you just used it.
    24 Q. Do you use it often?
    25 A. Never.


    1 Q. Would you be willing to give me a
    2 handwriting exemplar today before we leave?
    3 MR. DIAMOND: You can make a
    4 request of his counsel.
    5 MR. WOOD: I would like to. I
    6 would just like to see what maybe some of
    7 these examiners would say about it not
    8 necessarily casting aspersions on Mr. Thomas,
    9 but maybe testing the waters on how reliable
    10 a handwriting analysis is. So if you would
    11 consider that we will come back to that at
    12 the very end.
    13 MR. DIAMOND: It is under
    14 consideration.
    15 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Let me ask you to
    16 look at page 87. "Dog and pony shows."
    17 MR. DIAMOND: Where are you
    18 looking?
    19 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) The first paragraph
    20 next to the last sentence "The only danger
    21 to" John -- "Patsy and John Ramsey when they
    22 put on their dog and pony shows did not come
    23 from the interviewers but from themselves."
    24 What are you referring to when you -- that
    25 you're describing as their dog and pony


    1 shows?
    2 A. My opinion some of these
    3 appearances.
    4 Q. What appearances?
    5 A. For example, May 1 of 1997.
    6 Q. What other appearances?
    7 A. I don't know; I would have to
    8 review their appearances, Mr. Wood.
    9 Q. You said arranging an interview
    10 with the news organization was a tactic they
    11 would use repeatedly in coming years. How
    12 many times did they from your understanding
    13 use that what you call a tactic before the
    14 publication of their book?
    15 A. I don't think I make that
    16 distinction, do I, before or after the
    17 publication of their book?
    18 Q. So you were out doing the same
    19 thing I guess when you were giving your round
    20 of media interviews in connection with the
    21 publication of your book; was that a dog and
    22 pony show by you?
    23 A. They have certainly said worse
    24 about me than a dog and pony show.
    25 Q. Would you agree you were in the


    1 dog and pony show business, too, then since
    2 that's the way you describe their interviews?
    3 A. No. I don't describe mine as dog
    4 and pony shows but I have an opinion about
    5 what I talk about here.
    6 Q. Page 113. Next to the last
    7 paragraph "Additional information he shared
    8 with us at the interview, which we were later
    9 able to confirm, further eliminated him."
    10 What are you referring to in terms of the
    11 additional information?
    12 MR. DIAMOND: Can I, give me a
    13 second, please, to get the context?
    14 MR. WOOD: Bill McReynolds.
    15 THE DEPONENT: Chuck, I need to
    16 prior to this answer just 60 seconds to ask
    17 you a question.
    18 MR. WOOD: Go off the record.
    19 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    20 4:07. We're going off the record. This is
    21 the end of tape three.
    22 (Recess taken from 4:07 p.m. to
    23 4:09 p.m.)


  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    22 (Recess taken from 4:07 p.m. to
    23 4:09 p.m.)
    24 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    25 4:10. We're on the record. This the


    2 MR. DIAMOND:
    11 A.
    20 Q. (BY MR. WOOD)
    23 A.


    4 Q.
    9 A.
    13 Q.
    17 A.
    18 Q. Yeah, he did. Did you ever see
    19 the letter that he had sent to Patsy before
    20 his surgery where he talked about how much he
    21 enjoyed JonBenet giving him a tour of the
    22 house and giving him a special present in the
    23 basement of the house a year before,
    24 Christmas of 1995; did you ever see that
    25 letter?


    1 A. I'm not sure I ever saw a letter
    2 like that.
    3 Q. Do you deny seeing a letter like
    4 that?
    5 A. I'm telling you if the Ramseys had
    6 wished to share that with us, I certainly
    7 would have looked at it but, as I sit --
    8 Q. Are you saying they didn't?
    9 A. -- as I sit here right now I
    10 don't recall that letter.
    11 Q. Analysis proved that Santa Bill
    12 didn't write the ransom note. Was he in the
    13 elimination category from CBI?
    14 A. Again, if you want to go back to
    15 that, he was not under consideration.
    16 Whether that was elimination or no evidence
    17 to indicate, it was my understanding from
    18 Trujillo that McReynolds was not a candidate
    19 as the ransom note author.
    20 Q. How many different examiners looked
    21 at his handwriting?
    22 A. I think it was just Chet Ubowski
    23 at CBI.
    24 Q. How about Jessie McReynolds, did
    25 he fall under the category as John Ramsey did


    1 of elimination as the author?
    2 A. Same in the interest of your time,
    3 same answer as for Bill McReynolds.
    4 Q. Again, I guess in the interest of
    5 my time, thank you for your concern. When
    6 we use the term elimination, you claim not to
    7 understand what that means from the CBI and
    8 other handwriting experts; is that what you're
    9 telling me?
    10 Because I'm trying to find out if
    11 you've got a report where a CBI person, in
    12 this instance Mr. Ubowski I assume, said
    13 based on his review of exemplars in the
    14 ransom note he was able to eliminate Bill
    15 McReynolds as an author of the note. That's
    16 what I want to know whether that was done in
    17 this case or not. Was it done or not is my
    18 question?
    19 A. And I'm not real sure of your
    20 question, but as far as elimination or no
    21 evidence to indicate, I believe Santa Bill
    22 and his son fell into that category.
    23 Q. But there were examiners that said
    24 there was no evidence to indicate that Patsy
    25 was the author of the note, true?


    1 A. The same examiner who also said
    2 that didn't disqualify her as possibly being
    3 the author of the note.
    4 Q. Nor would it disqualify Bill
    5 McReynolds in and of itself, true?
    6 A. I think it was different examiners
    7 and I don't know the standards of their
    8 professional examination.
    9 Q. You have seen the -- I'm sure you
    10 watched some of the appearances by Alex
    11 Hunter when he went out on the media, didn't
    12 you?
    13 A. I did.
    14 Q. You've heard Alex Hunter say that
    15 the handwriting experts in this case in fact
    16 put Patsy Ramsey somewhere around a 4.5 on a
    17 one to five scale, five being elimination.
    18 You heard district attorney Hunter make that
    19 statement, didn't you?
    20 A. Not only did I not hear him make
    21 that statement, District Attorney Hunter I
    22 never know what to believe when he speaks.
    23 Q. You don't like Alex Hunter, do
    24 you?
    25 A. No, sir.


    1 Q. I mean, that's a pretty damning
    2 statement to make about a man to say that
    3 you never know what to believe when he speaks
    4 because that's a way of saying that he's a
    5 liar, not to be trusted, wouldn't you agree?
    6 A. I always take at face value what
    7 comes out of Mr. Hunter's mouth.
    8 Q. Jeff Shapiro was your confidential
    9 informant, right?
    10 A. Yes.
    11 Q. So you had during your
    12 investigation of JonBenet Ramsey's murder a
    13 confidential informant who was a tabloid,
    14 supermarket tabloid, reporter for Globe,
    15 right?
    16 A. Yes.
    17 Q. And you were trying to get
    18 Mr. Shapiro to get you information about
    19 Mr. Hunter, right?
    20 A. He came to us with information.
    21 Eye and -- ear and eyewitness information
    22 about some of the activities going on in
    23 Mr. Hunter's office, yes.
    24 Q. Did you give the ransom note to
    25 Ann Bardach?


    1 A. We discussed it. I never gave
    2 her a copy of the note or the note.
    3 Q. Did you tell her what it said?
    4 A. We had conversations which I would
    5 describe as almost wholly concerning the
    6 politics of the investigation but given some
    7 of what was going on, yes, I did discuss
    8 content of the ransom note with her.
    9 Q. Did you ever meet her in a
    10 parking lot?
    11 A. I met her at a restaurant.
    12 Q. Did you ever meet her in a
    13 parking lot, sir?
    14 A. I don't know what you're referring
    15 to.
    16 Q. A parking lot. You asked Jeff
    17 Shapiro, for example, one time to meet you in
    18 a parking lot, didn't you?
    19 A. Maybe I met her in the restaurant
    20 parking lot.
    21 Q. That's what I was asking. The
    22 first time you met her, you didn't want to
    23 be seen in a restaurant in Boulder, Colorado
    24 with Ann Bardach, did you?
    25 A. Went into the restaurant and had a


    1 meal.
    2 Q. How many times did you meet with
    3 Ann Bardach?
    4 A. I don't know, maybe four or five
    5 times.
    6 Q. You were scared to death when you
    7 were up in Quantico, Mr. Thomas, that you
    8 were going to be outted as a source for her
    9 Vanity Fair article, weren't you?
    10 A. I was concerned because
    11 Mr. Shapiro made me aware or at least claimed
    12 that what became a big internal affairs witch
    13 hunt in fact transpired.
    14 Q. You were afraid it was going to
    15 come out on CNN that Steve Thomas had given
    16 police information to the Vanity Fair writer
    17 and embarrass you when you were up there with
    18 these FBI people that you were relying on,
    19 isn't that true, sir?
    20 A. As I said, Mr. Wood, I was
    21 concerned about that being made public.
    22 Q. You were ready to throw down your
    23 badge over it, weren't you? Talked to your
    24 wife and said I'm going to walk away from
    25 this, I can't take it anymore, that was when


    1 you were up in Quantico, true?
    2 A. I don't know what Mr. Shapiro has
    3 obviously told you but I was upset about
    4 this, yes.
    5 Q. Well, did you take -- did you say
    6 that?
    7 A. Did I say what?
    8 Q. That you were prepared to walk
    9 away, you had talked to your wife, you
    10 weren't going to take it anymore when you
    11 were up there in Quantico and you were afraid
    12 that it was going to come out that you had
    13 provided this information?
    14 A. I had some frustrations throughout
    15 this case which eventually led me to do just
    16 that and resign.
    17 Q. I'm talking about, sir, when you
    18 were up there in Quantico and had these
    19 conversations with Mr. Shapiro which would
    20 have been around September of 1997, a year
    21 before you resigned. Do you remember that?
    22 A. Yes.
    23 Q. How many conversations did you
    24 have with Mr. Shapiro?
    25 A. I'm not sure but I'm confident he


    1 was tape recording most likely those
    2 conversations and that would bear out that
    3 conversation.
    4 Q. Why are you confident that he was
    5 tape recording them?
    6 A. It was my impression that he was
    7 tape recording a lot of people.
    8 Q. Did you ever make a statement to
    9 him on the phone, Jeff, do you know what
    10 they call the people that chased down
    11 Princess Diana, papparazzi, and do you know
    12 what they call someone who strangles and
    13 kills their child, Poppa Ramsey?
    14 A. Never.
    15 Q. Never made that statement?
    16 A. Never.
    17 Q. You deny that under oath?
    18 A. Yes.
    19 Q. Did you ever read "Perfect Murder,
    20 Perfect Town"?
    21 A. I did.
    22 Q. Any phone conversations involving
    23 you that you read and thought were grossly
    24 inaccurate?
    25 A. Yes.


    1 Q. Which ones were those?
    2 A. One in which Jeff Shapiro,
    3 according to Schiller, alleges that I told
    4 Shapiro who I thought killed the victim in
    5 this case.
    6 Q. The one where you said John and
    7 Patsy?
    8 A. I don't know if you would care to
    9 turn to the quote, that's the one I'm
    10 recalling.
    11 Q. Is that the one?
    12 A. I don't know. Let me look at the
    13 quote.
    14 Q. We'll come back to it later if we
    15 need to. Anything else, other than that one?
    16 A. There were, I think, a number of
    17 factual errors in the book. And if you
    18 would like to sit down and go through the
    19 book, we can certainly do that.
    20 Q. If you're willing at some point
    21 and your attorneys will let you do that with
    22 me, I assure you that I very much would like
    23 to sit down and do that with you. I am
    24 very interested in those facts for
    25 inaccuracies.


    1 Anybody besides Carol McKinley,
    2 Jeff Shapiro and Ms. Bardach that you
    3 discussed this case with while you were still
    4 actively involved in this investigation in
    5 terms of media individuals?
    6 A. That phone would sometimes ring in
    7 the situation room 100 times a day. I would
    8 pick up the phone but, no, didn't carry on
    9 any dialogue or conversation with others.
    10 Q. Did you ask Jeff Shapiro to find
    11 out who was telling people in Boulder that
    12 you were the source for the Vanity Fair
    13 article?
    14 A. If we had a conversation in which
    15 I asked him to do that, I certainly wouldn't
    16 deny it.
    17 Q. And he told you -- do you recall
    18 him telling you it was Bill Wise, Alex
    19 Hunter's assistant?
    20 A. He may have.
    21 Q. And you responded, Those :(:(:(:(ers,
    22 he said, almost as if he were catatonic.
    23 Then he got louder. Those :(:(:(:(ers, he
    24 repeated. Those :(:(:(:(ers, he shouted. Jesus
    25 Christ, Jeff, do you know what the :(:(:(:( will


    1 happen to me if it comes out on national
    2 television that I had anything to do with
    3 this :(:(:(:(ing article while I'm up here, he
    4 asked. I'm up here with the FBI, man. Do
    5 you have any idea how :(:(:(:(ing embarrassing
    6 it's going to be if we're all sitting in a
    7 room together with CNN on and that comes over
    8 it? :(:(:(:(, it's going to make that whole
    9 department look like :(:(:(:(. Jesus Christ,
    10 Jesus Christ.
    11 Did you ever say anything like
    12 that to Jeff Shapiro, sir, in a telephone
    13 conversation when you were in Quantico?
    14 MR. DIAMOND: Are you reading from
    15 something you would like to share?
    16 MR. WOOD: My notes.
    17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you have a
    18 conversation with words to that effect when
    19 you talked to Mr. Shapiro about who was
    20 saying that you were the source for the
    21 Vanity Fair article?
    22 A. Again, Mr. Wood, it leads me to
    23 believe that he was in fact probably taping
    24 these telephone conversations. Yeah, I spoke
    25 with him at a period that I was very upset.


    1 Q. You don't deny making those
    2 statements, do you, sir? I'm sorry for the
    3 language for the court reporter's sake but
    4 it's business and I think everyone understands
    5 that. You don't deny making those statements
    6 at all, do you, because you --
    7 MR. DIAMOND: In those words?
    8 MR. WOOD: Oh, yeah. These are
    9 quotes pretty much that I was reading.
    10 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You don't deny it
    11 under oath, do you, sir?
    12 A. I don't know if those are quotes
    13 or not but I probably had a conversation
    14 similar to that.
    15 Q. That wasn't the only one like
    16 that, was it?
    17 A. Like what, Mr. Wood?
    18 Q. Where you were so upset about
    19 being outted as a source. You got real
    20 upset when you thought they were going to ask
    21 you to take a polygraph, didn't you?
    22 A. I was prepared to come back and
    23 when asked admit that I spoke with Ann
    24 Bardach.
    25 Q. Why don't you just come back and


    1 admit the truth, sir? Here you are in, at
    2 least at the time, what was one of the most,
    3 if not the most, high profile murder
    4 investigations in the country; an article has
    5 come out about that investigation when it's
    6 only into its first few months that has an
    7 impact on the investigation because it does
    8 contain previously undisclosed confidential
    9 police information.
    10 Did you not think it was the
    11 correct and honorable and professional thing
    12 to do to simply come back and tell the truth
    13 that you had met with her these several times
    14 and that you had provided her with
    15 information?
    16 MR. DIAMOND: Objection.
    17 Argumentative. You may answer.
    18 A. Did I think it was the honorable
    19 thing to come back to Boulder and tell the
    20 truth about it?
    21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yes, sir.
    22 A. I had the same question of your
    23 clients, yes.
    24 Q. I'm not -- let me tell you
    25 something, sir, we're not talking about my


    1 clients right now we're talking about Steve
    2 Thomas. You've been doing a lot of talking
    3 and a lot of writing about my clients, but
    4 now we're talking about you. You were not
    5 prepared to come face the truth of what you
    6 had done and out yourself as the source and
    7 you were scared to death they were going to
    8 make you take a polygraph test and everyone
    9 was going to know that Steve Thomas had done
    10 it and you were going to be fired and you
    11 were probably going to be prosecuted. That
    12 was your fear, wasn't it, sir, pure and
    13 simple one word, disgraced?
    14 A. No.
    15 Q. You didn't have concerns about
    16 being prosecuted by Alex Hunter?
    17 A. I was concerned when Shapiro
    18 mentioned the conversations he was having with
    19 Mr. Hunter according to Shapiro included
    20 criminally prosecuting whoever spoke or had
    21 spoken with Ann Bardach and I was prepared to
    22 come back when asked, as I said, and admit
    23 my role.
    24 Prior to that happening, they
    25 dropped the whole witch hunt inside the


    1 police department.
    2 Q. Did you tell your friends at the
    3 FBI that which you were meeting with that,
    4 you know, it might impact your professional
    5 feelings about my credibility if you learned
    6 this information about me but I feel
    7 compelled to let you know I've been
    8 discussing this case with a tabloid reporter,
    9 a FOX news reporter and I have given
    10 information to a Vanity Fair reporter?
    11 Did you think that might impact
    12 your credibility, sir, if people knew that
    13 you were doing that?
    14 A. I don't know what other people
    15 would have thought, Mr. Wood, but I was
    16 talking to Mr. Shapiro, The Globe reporter as
    17 in an informant capacity. I wasn't sharing
    18 information about the case with Carol
    19 McKinley. I described that as the politics
    20 of the investigation. And regarding Ann
    21 Bardach, no, I have not publicly disclosed
    22 that.
    23 Q. You didn't find yourself the
    24 source for a Globe story about the demand by
    25 the police to arrest the Ramseys and got


    1 upset with Jeff Shapiro because he had given
    2 that information to his editors that made up
    3 that story; you were concerned that you were
    4 going to be found to be the source of that
    5 story, too?
    6 A. I don't know what you're talking
    7 about.
    8 Q. Did you ever give information to
    9 the National Enquirer or Shelly Ross, a
    10 former employee of the National Enquirer about
    11 the 911 tape in terms of the allegations that
    12 Burke Ramsey appeared on it?
    13 A. I don't know that I did.
    14 Q. Do you deny doing it?
    15 A. I like Shelly Ross; I don't know
    16 that I discussed with her evidence in the
    17 case.
    18 Q. Did you discuss it with the
    19 National Inquirer?
    20 A. No, the only conversations that I
    21 believe that I have had with the National
    22 Enquirer is when they after I resigned tried
    23 to buy a story from me.
    24 Q. So after you resigned, you went on
    25 in September of 1997 20/20, Shelly Ross as


    1 the executive producer, right?
    2 A. I believe that's right.
    3 Q. A couple weeks before that there
    4 had been an article in the National Enquirer
    5 disclosing the enhanced 911 tape enhancement
    6 about Burke Ramsey, right?
    7 A. I don't know that.
    8 Q. Did you tell Shelly Ross about
    9 that before you made the appearance on her
    10 show, the 911 tape enhancement?
    11 A. No, as I said, I don't admit any
    12 such thing of sharing that information with
    13 Shelly Ross.
    14 Q. Do you deny it?
    15 A. Yeah, again I didn't share that as
    16 I sit here today or have any recollection of
    17 sharing that with Shelly Ross.
    18 Yeah, as a matter of fact, upon
    19 reflection, Mr. Wood, I categorically deny
    20 that because I remember at the time the
    21 suggestion that I may have been the source of
    22 that, and I absolutely was not.
    23 Q. And you would take a polygraph on
    24 that, wouldn't you?
    25 MR. DIAMOND: I'm not going to


    1 let him answer that question.
    2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Would you take a
    3 polygraph examination conducted by an
    4 independent and impartial examiner on your
    5 role as a source for some of these stories
    6 while you were actively investigating the
    7 JonBenet Ramsey case?
    8 MR. DIAMOND: I'm not going to
    9 let him answer that question. It's improper.
    10 Move forward.
    11 MR. WOOD: So on advice of
    12 counsel --
    13 MR. DIAMOND: Yes. If you have a
    14 discovery request, make it of me.
    15 MR. WOOD: I'm just asking him if
    16 he would be willing to take one.
    17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did you ever send
    18 a letter formally requesting a polygraph
    19 examination of Patsy Ramsey after the April
    20 30, 1997 interview?
    21 A. I don't believe so.
    22 Q. Did you ever make any formal
    23 request for a polygraph examination of Patsy
    24 Ramsey after the April 30, 1997 interview?
    25 A. Certainly we hounded Pete Hofstrom


    1 about it.
    2 Q. I didn't ask you about Pete
    3 Hofstrom. I want to know whether you asked
    4 Patsy Ramsey or her lawyers formally will you
    5 submit to a polygraph examination after April
    6 30, 1997?
    7 A. There was a chain of command. I
    8 didn't deal directly with Patsy Ramsey or her
    9 attorneys but I did not personally draft such
    10 a letter.
    11 Q. Are you aware of any formal demand
    12 made by the Boulder authorities on Patsy
    13 Ramsey after April 30, 1997, before you left
    14 in August 1998, to submit to a polygraph
    15 examination after April 30?
    16 A. It was very clear that the police
    17 department leaned on the DA's office to do
    18 exactly that. And the fact that the DA's
    19 office chose not to was to the chagrin of
    20 the Boulder Police Department.
    21 Q. So the answer is you're not aware
    22 of any request being made?
    23 A. The answer is just what I
    24 answered, Mr. Wood.
    25 Q. Even after Patsy Ramsey said she


    1 would take ten of them when you asked her
    2 the question hypothetically on April the 30th,
    3 1997, right?
    4 A. Right what? Was a formal request
    5 made?
    6 Q. Yeah, when she said -- you asked
    7 her hypothetically, if I ask you to take one
    8 and she said, I'll take ten of them, do
    9 whatever you want, and you're telling me for
    10 whatever reasons, politically I guess is your
    11 explanation, but whatever the explanation is
    12 there was never a demand made on Patsy Ramsey
    13 to take a polygraph examination after April
    14 30th, 1997, prior to when you left in August
    15 of 1998, true?
    16 A. I don't know that she was ever
    17 sent an engraved invitation to take a
    18 polygraph but I think it was pretty clear,
    19 Mr. Wood, of the police department's position
    20 and through the district attorney's office
    21 that the Boulder Police Department wanted John
    22 and Patsy Ramsey to submit to law enforcement
    23 sponsored polygraph examinations.
    24 Q. And do you all usually do those
    25 on engraved invitations?


    1 A. No.
    2 Q. Why did you misrepresent the truth
    3 then in your book when you said that the
    4 book was going to be the inside story
    5 answering a wide range of important questions,
    6 including why were the Ramseys handled with
    7 kid gloves and never asked by law enforcement
    8 to take lie detector tests?
    9 MR. DIAMOND: I'm going to
    10 object --
    11 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Were they asked or
    12 not asked by law enforcement to take a lie
    13 detector test? I'm trying to find out the
    14 truth of the investigation.
    15 MR. DIAMOND: Do you want to
    16 withdraw the first question and have him
    17 answer the second question?
    18 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Do you understand
    19 the question? Here is your book jacket.
    20 You saw it before it hit the stands, didn't
    21 you?
    22 MR. DIAMOND: Which are we
    23 answering?
    24 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) This one right
    25 here. Did you see this --


    1 A. Book jacket, yeah.
    2 Q. -- book jacket before it hit the
    3 stands?
    4 A. Yes, sir, that would be my book
    5 jacket --
    6 Q. There it is.
    7 A. -- before the book went into
    8 the --
    9 Q. Right.
    10 A. Retail store.
    11 Q. Let's just try to make this clear.
    12 I just want to know what the truth is. Were
    13 the Ramseys asked by law enforcement to take
    14 lie detector tests or not?
    15 A. Yes, and I believe you know that
    16 because read the transcript of my interview
    17 with your clients from April 30, 1997, and I
    18 think even Alex Hunter has said a monkey
    19 could understand that polygraph examinations
    20 were being requested.
    21 Q. Now we believe Alex Hunter on that
    22 point; is that what you're telling me?
    23 A. As I said, Alex Hunter says a lot
    24 of things but I happen to agree with his
    25 assessment that is borne out by the


    1 transcript of that interview.
    2 Q. Did you ever seek to interview the
    3 Richardson twins who lived with Melody
    4 Stanton?
    5 A. No.
    6 Q. Why not?
    7 A. Because I was unaware of these
    8 people.
    9 Q. Did anybody in the Boulder Police
    10 Department make an attempt, to your knowledge,
    11 to interview the two 30-year old twins, the
    12 Richardson twins, that lived with Melody
    13 Stanton?
    14 A. Not that I'm aware of.
    15 Q. How about the two friends of Fleet
    16 White that were there, did you all ever get
    17 any non- testimonial evidence from those two
    18 individuals?
    19 A. Which two friends are you
    20 referring to?
    21 Q. The ones that were with him on
    22 Christmas and were at the Ramseys on I
    23 believe the party of the 23rd; do you know
    24 who I'm talking about?
    25 A. Mr. Fleet White's house guests at


    1 the time?
    2 Q. Yes. His friends that were house
    3 guests, did you all ever get any
    4 non-testimonial evidence, hair, DNA,
    5 handwriting from Mr. Cox or Mr. Gaston?
    6 A. I believe Detective Harmer received
    7 that assignment and made attempts to conduct
    8 that investigation. And I'm not sure whether
    9 or not she was successful in those attempts.
    10 Q. On page 270 of your book. Chief
    11 Beckner started talking about a successful
    12 Title-3 electronic surveillance down in
    13 Florida where the police had recorded the
    14 mother saying 'The baby is dead and buried
    15 ... because you did it' and the father
    16 replied 'I wish I hadn't harmed her -- it
    17 was the cocaine', end quote. "I considered
    18 the irony of Beckner discussing a Title-3
    19 that worked damned well in Florida when he
    20 had been a part of the scandal-frightened
    21 leadership that wouldn't let us try the same
    22 tactic."
    23 Have I read that correctly?
    24 A. I believe so.
    25 Q. That was the Aisenberg case,


    1 wasn't it, Mr. Thomas?
    2 A. That is the case that is being
    3 referred to here, yes.
    4 Q. Right. You understand that charge
    5 was dismissed against the family because the
    6 transcripts of the tapes were not consistent
    7 with the representations made as to the
    8 content by the police?
    9 A. I'm not familiar with that.
    10 Q. You hadn't tried to study what
    11 happened to the Aisenberg case at all?
    12 A. No, as we sit here today I don't
    13 know the conclusion of the Aisenberg case.
    14 Q. I would suggest it would be
    15 interesting for you to look into it in your
    16 spare time. Clearly you're going to tell me
    17 that the Boulder Police Department thoroughly
    18 investigated, John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey,
    19 right?
    20 A. Is that a question?
    21 Q. Yes. Clearly you're going to tell
    22 me that they thoroughly investigated, the
    23 Boulder Police Department thoroughly
    24 investigated John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey?
    25 MR. DIAMOND: How do you know


    1 what he is going to tell you unless you ask
    2 him?
    3 MR. WOOD: I just did.
    4 MR. DIAMOND: No.
    5 MR. WOOD: If he wants to
    6 disagree with me he can.
    7 MR. DIAMOND: You asked him
    8 whether --
    9 MR. WOOD: I'm not asking you.
    10 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Will you answer my
    11 question? Did you understand? I will be
    12 glad to make it clear.
    13 MR. DIAMOND: Why don't you ask
    14 him non- argumentative questions.
    15 MR. WOOD: Why don't you ask him
    16 questions --
    17 MR. DIAMOND: Objection.
    18 MR. WOOD: -- when you want to.
    19 MR. DIAMOND: Objection.
    20 Argumentative.
    21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Are you going to
    22 answer my question?
    23 MR. DIAMOND: If you can answer
    24 that question.
    25 A. It was phrased as a statement but


    1 I think I understand the question.
    2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Thank you.
    3 A. Given the God almighty obstacles
    4 that we were up against, we tried to
    5 investigate them as thoroughly as we could as
    6 paper tigers.
    7 Q. When you were under threat of
    8 lawsuit, the first thing you did was hired a
    9 PR person, Sherill Wisinhunt (sic) and you
    10 hired lawyers, right?
    11 A. No, I didn't hire Sherill
    12 Whisenand.
    13 Q. Whisenand, I'm sorry.
    14 A. She was a friend of mine long
    15 before this who agreed to take these calls
    16 for me and, having been charged with
    17 something and as a defendant in a case, I
    18 thought it was necessarily prudent to retain
    19 an attorney.
    20 Q. Page 284 -- let me ask you before
    21 I go there, during Mr. Foster's presentation,
    22 did he talk to you all about the Dirty Harry
    23 movie and the references in the ransom note
    24 to it by talking about the fact that the
    25 Ramseys' favorite movie was Animal House and


    1 there was a scene in Animal House where
    2 somebody drove a car through the campus and
    3 hit a fire hydrant and there was a similar
    4 scene in Dirty Harry like that. Do you
    5 recall that?
    6 A. I recall something vaguely similar
    7 to that where he was discussing events out of
    8 motion pictures.
    9 Q. Didn't you think that was
    10 borderline on the absurd, sir, to tie Dirty
    11 Harry to the Ramseys because they liked the
    12 movie Animal House and it had a scene in it
    13 where somebody ran into a fire hydrant?
    14 Didn't you think that was literally absurd or
    15 did you think that was good forensic testing?
    16 A. Taken out of context as you
    17 represent it today it --
    18 Q. Put it into context, if you would,
    19 please.
    20 MR. DIAMOND: Let him finish his
    21 answer, please. Go ahead.
    22 A. Taken out of context as you
    23 represented today, that may seem odd. But at
    24 the time, it was a part of his presentation.
    25 And I don't recall my observation being how


    1 you described it as fantastic or incredible
    2 or whatever term you used.
    3 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Was there a
    4 transcript from a tape recording of the first
    5 interview of Jackie Dilson, because you made
    6 reference that I should look at the
    7 transcript, that tells me that maybe it was
    8 recorded and it was transcribed?
    9 A. I would -- it was Detective Gosage
    10 and my policy and practice in this case to
    11 try and record witness interviews when
    12 feasible and we may very well have taken a
    13 tape recorder -- as a matter of fact, I
    14 would have to answer, yes, I believe we did
    15 record and have transcribed that interview.
    16 Q. Page 286, you make reference to a
    17 red turtleneck being stripped off of JonBenet
    18 when it got wet from I guess her bed
    19 wetting.
    20 MR. DIAMOND: Where are you?
    21 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Third paragraph
    22 down "I concluded the little girl had worn
    23 the red turtleneck to bed, as her mother
    24 originally said, and that it was stripped off
    25 when it got wet." Are you talking about wet


    1 from urine?
    2 A. In this hypothesis we're talking
    3 about, yes.
    4 Q. Did you ever have or the Boulder
    5 Police Department to your knowledge ever have
    6 the red turtleneck found in the bathroom
    7 tested forensically to determine if it had
    8 any type of trace evidence or other evidence
    9 on it?
    10 A. Again, it sounds like you know
    11 otherwise but I was under the impression from
    12 Trujillo that there wasn't a presumptive test
    13 for urine.
    14 Q. Did anybody tell you that they
    15 found the red turtleneck and that it was wet?
    16 A. No, this is what I am surmising
    17 in the hypothesis.
    18 Q. Was the red turtleneck taken into
    19 evidence?
    20 A. I certainly believe it was.
    21 Q. Did it have any type of urine
    22 stain on it?
    23 A. Not that I'm aware of. I never
    24 have looked at it personally.
    25 Q. Where did you get the statement


    1 that it got wet; did you just manufacture
    2 that out of whole cloth?
    3 A. No, I'm suggesting that that was a
    4 reasonable explanation for the final resting
    5 place of this red turtleneck of which she may
    6 have indeed worn home.
    7 Q. But you had no evidence to support
    8 that statement about the turtleneck being wet,
    9 true?
    10 A. No, I don't know that it was
    11 urine stained.
    12 Q. Or wet?
    13 A. Or wet.
    14 Q. Was there any test done on the
    15 duct tape that would establish the imprint of
    16 JonBenet's lip prints on that tape?
    17 A. Was there any test that would
    18 establish that?
    19 Q. Did you all to your knowledge, did
    20 the Boulder Police Department conduct any test
    21 that would establish that the duct tape that
    22 was pulled off of her mouth by John Ramsey
    23 that was then picked up by Fleet White was
    24 found somehow to contain a perfect set of
    25 JonBenet's lip prints, was any test performed


    1 that made that finding?
    2 A. There was an examination apparently
    3 done at some point which was reported back to
    4 a detective briefing at which I was present
    5 and I believe that was Wickman or Trujillo
    6 that shared that information.
    7 Q. Who conducted that examination?
    8 A. I don't know.
    9 Q. Was it an expert of some type?
    10 A. I don't know that there is such a
    11 thing as an expert examination and there is
    12 no testing that I'm aware of. I think
    13 that's more common sense observation.
    14 Q. Did you ever find the roll of
    15 duct tape because the duct tape was torn on
    16 both ends, wasn't it?
    17 A. We never found the roll of duct
    18 tape to source to the duct tape that was
    19 covering the victim's mouth.
    20 Q. And you didn't find any prior
    21 application of this type of duct tape in the
    22 house, did you?
    23 A. Similar, but I don't know that we
    24 ever found a match.
    25 Q. Actually what you said was similar


    1 was just one piece that was found on a
    2 painting, right, and it was found not to be
    3 in fact from the same --
    4 A. Roll, that's right.
    5 Q. -- from the roll; is that right?
    6 A. Right.
    7 Q. Yeah. And did you ever find cord
    8 in the house? One end of the cord was, as
    9 I understand it, was cut. The other end was
    10 sealed for the garrote; is that right?
    11 A. You know, I'm not going to say
    12 that as I sit here today. I would have to
    13 review --
    14 Q. Forget that, don't worry about
    15 that. Did you ever find any cord in the
    16 house from which the garrote or the rope that
    17 tied her hands together was from? Did you
    18 ever find that?
    19 A. No. As far as I know, the cord
    20 used on the victim was never sourced to
    21 anything in the house.
    22 MR. DIAMOND: If this is a good
    23 point, before you change subjects?
    24 MR. WOOD: Let me see how much
    25 time I've got. Let me see.


    1 MR. RAWLS: You have something
    2 about one ten left.
    3 MR. WOOD: Give me about two
    4 minutes, let me just run through a couple
    5 other things real quick.
    6 MR. DIAMOND: You have an hour.
    7 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) There was some
    8 paint --
    9 MR. DIAMOND: There's one hour
    10 left.
    11 MR. WOOD: I do hope you'll give
    12 me some consideration on a little extension
    13 if we can finish up and I don't have to take
    14 it up with the court.
    15 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) The garrote was
    16 made out of a paint brush that was believed
    17 to be a paint brush in a paint tray down in
    18 the basement, right?
    19 A. That's my understanding.
    20 Q. And there was the tip end with
    21 the brush found in the paint tray, right?
    22 A. No, it's my understanding the
    23 brush end --
    24 Q. The brush end was found, the tip
    25 end was broken off and never found, right?


    1 A. Yeah, it's my understanding that
    2 the handled shaft was fashioned into the
    3 garrote handle. And Lou Smit told me that
    4 there was a missing piece that has been
    5 unaccounted for.
    6 Q. Did you ever find any evidence to
    7 dispute what Mr. Smit told you in that
    8 regard?
    9 A. No.
    10 Q. You've already told me there were
    11 the missing pages from the pad, right?
    12 A. If we're talking about pages 17
    13 through 25, if memory serves, yes, those were
    14 unaccounted for.
    15 Q. And there was some bleed-through
    16 on what has been referred to as the practice
    17 ransom note, right?
    18 A. Correct.
    19 Q. Was there any bleed through on
    20 what -- on the ransom note itself?
    21 A. Well, 17 through 25 missing, 26
    22 with bleed-through on it presumably from 25.
    23 And if memory serves, 27 started the ransom
    24 note so you had some, I think, bleed-through
    25 from the practice note.


    1 Q. The practice note consisted of
    2 Mr. -- why don't you tell me what was on the
    3 ransom note, the practice ransom note, as has
    4 been described?
    5 A. I believe that said Mr. And Mrs.,
    6 the what looked like the down stroke of an R
    7 which could have been mistaken for an I.
    8 Q. Did any of the examiners compare
    9 that handwriting to the ransom note or was
    10 that simply not sufficient to draw any
    11 conclusions about the commonality of
    12 authorship?
    13 A. I believe that the ink was
    14 matched.
    15 Q. The what, the ink?
    16 A. The ink from the practice note to
    17 the ransom note was matched.
    18 Q. In what way?
    19 A. The same pen wrote the practice
    20 note that wrote the ransom note.
    21 Q. There were three pens. Did they
    22 determine which of the pens wrote the
    23 practice note and the ransom note?
    24 A. The same pen.
    25 Q. And that was a consistent or was


    1 that a finding by forensically of an absolute
    2 match between pen and ink?
    3 A. It's my understanding that the
    4 Secret Service matched the ink from practice
    5 note to the ransom note.
    6 Q. Pens were in plain view?
    7 A. You're talking pens plural. I'm
    8 talking about the pen that wrote --
    9 Q. The pen, that was in a -- it was
    10 in plain view?
    11 A. In a cup in the kitchen is my
    12 understanding.
    13 Q. Pad was in plain view, given
    14 voluntarily by John Ramsey to the police?
    15 A. I don't know about plain view, I
    16 wasn't there. But it's my understanding that
    17 he produced that from a countertop area on
    18 the first floor.
    19 MR. WOOD: Why don't we take that
    20 break now.
    21 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    22 4:47. We're going off the record.
    23 (Recess taken from 4:47 p.m. to
    24 4:57 p.m.)
    25 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is


    1 4:57. We're back on the record.
    2 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, if you
    3 would look at page 152 of your book. Next
    4 to the last paragraph, it ends "'I believe
    5 she wrote it.'.
    6 Ubowski had recently told one
    7 detective "'I believe she wrote it.'" Who
    8 was --
    9 A. Yeah, may I read the paragraph?
    10 Q. Yeah, I want to find out who that
    11 detective is.
    12 A. I believe that's Trujillo and
    13 Wickman who made that statement, specifically
    14 Wickman, which John Eller certainly also
    15 heard.
    16 Q. Anybody else?
    17 A. I think this was Tom Koby. This
    18 was that meeting I described in a vehicle at
    19 the parking lot of the shopping mall, Koby,
    20 Eller, Wickman, Trujillo, and I don't know
    21 whether or not that's on tape.
    22 Q. But isn't the bottom line that
    23 Chet Ubowski made it very clear that,
    24 whatever his beliefs were, he was not in a
    25 position from his standpoint to state under


    1 oath that Patsy Ramsey was the author within
    2 any degree of certainty; isn't that what he
    3 told you, sir?
    4 A. No, the conduit was Wickman who
    5 said something very similar to that that he
    6 couldn't get on the stand and testify to it.
    7 Q. And that never changed while you
    8 were there, did it, that Ubowski would not
    9 get on the stand and testify to it, right?
    10 A. Yeah, as far as I know Ubowski
    11 never took the stand and testified to it.
    12 Q. And it was always your
    13 understanding that he said that he was not in
    14 a position to do so from an opinion
    15 standpoint; isn't that true?
    16 A. To take the stand?
    17 Q. He would not go under oath and
    18 testify that Patsy Ramsey within reasonable
    19 certainty was the author of the note?
    20 A. Well, the reasonable certainty I
    21 recall I think it was Mr. Ubowski speaking at
    22 the VIP presentation and I would like to see
    23 a transcript of that because I thought --
    24 Q. I thought maybe --
    25 A. -- his answer or his remarks were


    1 fairly strong there. But no, he was
    2 obviously not in a position to take the stand
    3 and make that identification in court.
    4 Q. Am I right, maybe I went over
    5 this and I apologize, did Mr. Ubowski in his
    6 report say "There is evidence which indicates
    7 that the ransom note may have been written by
    8 Patsy Ramsey but the evidence falls short of
    9 that necessary to support a definite
    10 conclusion." That's Mr. Ubowski's opinion,
    11 right?
    12 A. That's his formal report opinion.
    13 Q. Did you ever know that opinion to
    14 change before August of 1998 when you left?
    15 A. To get stronger or weaker?
    16 Q. Yes.
    17 A. No.
    18 Q. Mr. Speckin we've been over,
    19 although do you recall Mr. Speckin stating
    20 that, When I compare the handwriting habits
    21 of Patsy Ramsey with those presented in
    22 the --
    23 A. Mr. Wood, bring me to where you
    24 are. I'm lost, sir.
    25 Q. I'm sorry, I'm in my notes. I'm


    1 not in the book.
    2 A. Okay.
    3 Q. Do you recall Mr. Speckin finding
    4 -- we talked about he found no evidence that
    5 Patsy Ramsey disguised her handwriting
    6 exemplars. I didn't want to go over this
    7 part and I wanted to.
    8 Mr. Speckin stated, When I compare
    9 the handwriting habits of Patsy Ramsey with
    10 those contained in the questioned ransom note,
    11 there exists agreement to the extent that
    12 some of her individual letter formations and
    13 letter combinations do appear in the ransom
    14 note. When this agreement is weighed against
    15 the number type and consistency of the
    16 differences present, I am unable to identify
    17 Patsy Ramsey as the author of the questioned
    18 ransom note with any degree of certainty. I
    19 am, however, unable to eliminate her as the
    20 author.
    21 Does that sound correct in terms
    22 of what Mr. Speckin's formal report was?
    23 A. If that's what you're reading
    24 from, that's consistent with my recollection.
    25 He did have other comments and information as


    1 well.
    2 Q. Lloyd Cunningham and Howard Ryle
    3 were obviously employed by the Ramsey family,
    4 true?
    5 A. That was my belief.
    6 Q. You knew that Lloyd Cunningham had
    7 in fact been the CBI examiner that had
    8 certified Chet Ubowski?
    9 A. No, but I do recall him saying he
    10 had done some training or had some capacity
    11 in that effect with Mr. Ubowski.
    12 Q. How about Howard Ryle, did you
    13 know him to be formerly with the CBI?
    14 A. I didn't know he was previously
    15 with the CBI.
    16 Q. Did?
    17 A. Did not.
    18 Q. I'm just trying -- I may be
    19 confused about which one was with the CBI or
    20 taught Mr. Ubowski?
    21 A. One was with, I think, previously
    22 the San Francisco PD and you may be correct;
    23 the other one may have been with CBI.
    24 Q. Did you all conclude that there
    25 were references in the ransom note from Dirty


    1 Harry, Speed, the movie Ransom, the movie
    2 Nick of Time and Ruthless People?
    3 A. That wasn't my conclusion. I
    4 think it was Lou Smit that brought that to
    5 the attention of several, and I don't know
    6 that those were verbatim quotes that matched
    7 the ransom note.
    8 Q. Were you familiar -- well, was
    9 that investigated by the Boulder Police
    10 Department in terms of trying to find out
    11 from movie rental records whether the Ramseys
    12 had ever seen those movies?
    13 A. Unfortunately, one of the obstacles
    14 we ran into with movie rental records was
    15 after the Thomas Hill, Anita, I can't
    16 remember her last name, hearings. Movie
    17 records are very, very restricted and without
    18 warrants or subpoenas or something above and
    19 beyond, we couldn't just go to the video
    20 store and check rental history.
    21 Q. Didn't the Ramseys give you almost
    22 100 releases to get information?
    23 A. I believe after I left.
    24 Q. But nonetheless, you believe they
    25 did that?


    1 A. I have heard, I think even you
    2 say that after -- or at a point in time
    3 after which I left the investigation, I was
    4 of the impression that after Kane came on
    5 board, they gave a number of consent
    6 releases.
    7 Q. They also provided a considerable
    8 amount of historical writings from Patsy
    9 Ramsey, didn't they, in addition to the five
    10 exemplars?
    11 A. I don't know if those were -- if
    12 those were seized by crime scene search
    13 warrant or if those were surrendered.
    14 Q. I think we went over Mr. Dusak,
    15 bear with me again, the Secret Service
    16 document examiner found a lack of indications
    17 and said that a study and comparison of the
    18 questioned and specimened writings submitted
    19 has resulted in the conclusion that there is
    20 no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey
    21 executed any of the questioned material
    22 appearing on the ransom note. Is that
    23 consistent with your recollection of
    24 Mr. Dusak's conclusion?
    25 A. If you're reading verbatim, I


    1 won't --
    2 Q. I'm asking you if it's consistent
    3 with your recollection. I'm not representing
    4 anything other than my notes here on it.
    5 A. Yes, but he said many other
    6 things, too.
    7 Q. But that portion is certainly
    8 consistent with your recollection, true?
    9 A. As I sit here today, yes.
    10 Q. Howard Ryle put his opinion,
    11 another Ramsey expert who was, I believe, the
    12 former CBI document examiner, but regardless
    13 of whether I'm right about that or not,
    14 Mr. Ryle put his opinion at between probably
    15 not and elimination of Patsy Ramsey as author
    16 of the ransom note, further stating that he
    17 believes that the writer could be identified
    18 if historical writing was found. Is that
    19 consistent with your recollection of
    20 Mr. Ryle's opinions?
    21 A. You know what, I don't know that
    22 the Ramsey, attorneys or the Ramseys -- or at
    23 least I never saw Mr. Ryle's report.
    24 Q. You weren't part of the
    25 presentation that Mr. Ryle and Mr. Cunningham


    1 made for Michael Kane and the DAs?
    2 A. I was present at a presentation
    3 they made. Michael Kane was not yet on the
    4 case and I think this was in May of '97.
    5 Q. May of '97 was the presentation
    6 that Ryle and Cunningham made, you did --
    7 A. I did observe that.
    8 Q. What I have read to you does that
    9 seem, though, clearly to be consistent with
    10 your recollection about what Mr. Ryle and
    11 Mr. Cunningham concluded?
    12 A. One or the other sounds accurate.
    13 Q. I want to show you and get the
    14 benefit of my elaborate markings.
    15 MR. WOOD: Why don't we mark this
    16 as Defendants' 3.
    17 (Exhibit-3 was marked.)
    18 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) I don't have
    19 copies, I apologize. I'll give you a clean
    20 copy of that, too, if you don't mind instead
    21 of putting my stuff on it?
    22 MR. DIAMOND: Do you have a clean
    23 copy?
    24 MR. WOOD: No, that's the only
    25 one I've got. I told Sean I didn't want to


    1 check bags so I didn't bring a bunch of
    2 copies.
    3 (Pause.)
    4 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Had you seen that
    5 article from KCNC from April 10, 2000, before
    6 I just showed it to you today?
    7 A. No, as I've said, I wasn't aware
    8 that Mr. Ubowski was retracting any statements
    9 prior to you're making me aware of that
    10 today.
    11 Q. If this is correct Mr. Ubowski is
    12 in fact stating on April 10, 2000 that he
    13 denies saying that Patsy Ramsey wrote the
    14 note and that he, the claim that 24 of the
    15 alphabet's 26 letters looked like -- looked
    16 as if they had been written by Patsy is
    17 denied as the lab does not quantify like
    18 that? You have never heard those statements
    19 made by the CBI before I showed you this
    20 KCNC report today?
    21 A. No, as I have said, no.
    22 Q. I forgot to ask you how many
    23 lectures have you given consistent with this
    24 web page?
    25 A. Very few, maybe three or four.


    1 Q. Do you have any lined up in the
    2 future?
    3 A. I do.
    4 Q. Could you try and tell me where
    5 the three or four were, just the names of
    6 the cities?
    7 A. Indianapolis, New Orleans, Snowmass,
    8 Colorado.
    9 Q. And what is coming up?
    10 A. Ohio. And I think there is one
    11 after the first of the year. Ohio might be
    12 after the first of the year. Minnesota later
    13 this year.
    14 Q. Dr. Wecht says, Steve Thomas knows
    15 so much about the murder of JonBenet Ramsey
    16 he doesn't mince words.
    17 Do you believe that's an accurate
    18 description of you?
    19 A. That's Dr. Wecht's description of
    20 me.
    21 Q. I'm asking you if you think it's
    22 accurate, that you don't mince words?
    23 A. It depends on the context.
    24 Q. Didn't it bother you a little bit
    25 about putting Don Foster's name on this in


    1 light of the letter that we looked at today
    2 that you've never even seen the second and
    3 third pages of --
    4 A. No.
    5 Q. -- Mr. Thomas?
    6 A. No.
    7 Q. Do you still think he's the best
    8 linguistic expert in the country?
    9 A. He still does work for law
    10 enforcement and seems to be highly regarded
    11 and I certainly respect Dr. Foster.
    12 Q. Did you all send that letter to
    13 the FBI and let them know about what
    14 Mr. Foster had said to Patsy Ramsey?
    15 A. What letter is that?
    16 Q. The letter that I just showed you
    17 today that you had only seen the first page
    18 of?
    19 A. I did not.
    20 Q. Page 75 of your book. The second
    21 paragraph "The FBI would tell us that the
    22 disposal of the body of JonBenet had the
    23 classic elements of a staged crime, complete
    24 with a Hollywoodized ransom note." Was there
    25 any specific member of the FBI that you


    1 attribute that statement to?
    2 A. The meeting in I believe it was
    3 August or September of 1997.
    4 Q. Quantico?
    5 A. In Quantico at a big, many, many
    6 people in the room.
    7 Q. If I hear you throughout this
    8 testimony and it seems to me and from your
    9 book, the FBI was heavily involved in this
    10 investigation from early on; wouldn't you
    11 agree?
    12 A. They were very supportive of us
    13 and involved, yes.
    14 Q. Yeah, I mean, they were heavily
    15 involved for a case that really was not a
    16 federal jurisdiction case, a murder?
    17 A. Arguably.
    18 Q. I mean when I was out there
    19 saying, you know, I didn't think the FBI is
    20 objective because they've been involved in
    21 this case to a significant amount, whether
    22 you agree or not with my objectivity
    23 conclusion, I was right about the fact that
    24 the FBI had been significantly involved in
    25 the case, wasn't I?


    1 A. For the record I don't agree with
    2 the objectivity conclusion but, yeah, they
    3 were significantly involved in the case.
    4 Q. It seems like from what you're
    5 telling me that they were of the mind that
    6 you were, that Patsy Ramsey they thought was
    7 involved in the death of her daughter?
    8 A. That certainly seemed to be my
    9 impression.
    10 Q. So whether that was an objective
    11 decision by then I certainly was right to
    12 have some concerns about whether or not they
    13 had formed such a conclusion before I
    14 submitted John or Patsy to the FBI
    15 examination, wasn't I?
    16 A. Well, twofold. One, I don't think
    17 they would have -- I don't think there was
    18 anything inappropriate with their polygraph
    19 unit or that they would have conspired in any
    20 way with their polygraphers.
    21 Q. I also comment to you the ruse
    22 interview that was attempted on Richard Jewell
    23 by the FBI might be enlightening about FBI
    24 tactics, legal and illegal. Do you agree
    25 that you all investigated the hell out of


    1 Bill McReynolds?
    2 A. Bill McReynolds was, yes, very
    3 scrutinized in this investigation, not just by
    4 us but I believe by the DA's people as well.
    5 Q. On page 115. Right about here
    6 down the second paragraph, there was somebody
    7 that was filing late reports. Was that
    8 Trujillo?
    9 A. Let me look real quick.
    10 Q. A full year had passed before he
    11 completed his report of the initial Atlanta
    12 trip?
    13 A. Yeah, help me out with the
    14 question.
    15 Q. The question is coming up.
    16 "Trujillo and Arndt still were not speaking,
    17 and the sergeant who reported the undisturbed
    18 snow now filed an amended report." Who was
    19 that sergeant?
    20 A. That was Sergeant Reichenbach.
    21 Q. And "The first officer was having
    22 difficulty in recollecting certain events."
    23 What officer was that?
    24 A. That was officer French.
    25 Q. And "Then Arndt began amending her


    1 reports, too"; is that true?
    2 A. Yes.
    3 Q. When was the initial Atlanta trip?
    4 A. I believe that was January 1st
    5 through 5th of 1997.
    6 Q. Page 160, the last paragraph.
    7 "Then the defense attorneys were allowed
    8 inside the Boulder Police Department to
    9 examine the actual ligature and garrote that
    10 killed JonBenet." Have I read that
    11 correctly?
    12 MR. DIAMOND: Can I just -- I
    13 just want to get the context.
    14 MR. WOOD: Last paragraph.
    15 MR. DIAMOND: I see where it is.
    16 I just want to --
    17 A. I missed it; we're on 160 on the
    18 bottom of the page?
    19 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Bottom paragraph,
    20 "Then the defense attorneys were allowed
    21 inside the Boulder Police Department to
    22 examine the actual ligature and garrote that
    23 killed JonBenet." Have I read that
    24 correctly?
    25 A. Yes.


    1 Q. "I watched sick inside, and
    2 Sergent Wickman bellowed in protest 'You're
    3 giving the :(:(:(:(ing murder weapon to the
    4 suspects.'" Have I read that correctly?
    5 A. Yes.
    6 Q. Are those statements true and
    7 accurate?
    8 A. Yes.
    9 Q. 154, right here, second blocked
    10 out, second paragraph, "Experts engaged by the
    11 police concluded there was no stun gun
    12 involved at all, but the DA's team never
    13 relinquished their claim that such weapon an
    14 exotic weapon was used to subdue JonBenet."
    15 Have I read that correctly?
    16 A. Yes.
    17 Q. Who were the experts engaged by
    18 the police that you're referring; would you
    19 identify those for me?
    20 A. I know at least one was Dr.
    21 Werner Spitz, and Detective Trujillo would be
    22 able to identify additional.
    23 Q. Did any of those -- any police
    24 department consultants discuss at either of
    25 the presentations in terms of what they


    1 thought about stun guns whether there was
    2 consistency. For example, Dr. Doberson?
    3 A. I'm sorry, run it back by me,
    4 Mr. Wood.
    5 Q. Was Dr. Deters -- the Larimer
    6 County coroner involved in the investigation
    7 by the Boulder Police Department?
    8 A. No, I'm not familiar with that
    9 name.
    10 Q. How about Sue Kitchens of the CBI?
    11 A. I am familiar with her name, but
    12 I do not know what extent she may have been
    13 involved in the investigation.
    14 Q. How about Dr. Doberson?
    15 A. I believe Trujillo and Wickman
    16 initially visited Dobersen on behalf of the
    17 police. But that was later followed up by
    18 investigators Smit and Ainsworth.
    19 Q. Dr. Doberson who I think you have
    20 a great deal of respect for?
    21 A. I don't know Dr. Doberson.
    22 Q. Do you recognize him, though, to
    23 be respected in the law enforcement community
    24 in Colorado?
    25 A. I have no opinion. I don't know


    1 anything about Dr. Doberson.
    2 Q. Do you know that he has stated
    3 within reasonable medical certainty that the
    4 marks on JonBenet's face and back were caused
    5 by a stun gun. Are you aware of that?
    6 A. Well, if you're telling me that's
    7 true --
    8 Q. I'm just asking if you're aware of
    9 it. You said --
    10 A. I saw that on --
    11 Q. -- you watched some of the stuff.
    12 I'm just asking if that's what he said there?
    13 A. Right.
    14 Q. Did you watch the Tracy Mills
    15 documentary, two?
    16 A. The second one, two?
    17 Q. Yeah.
    18 A. Two, as in the number two?
    19 Q. Yeah, the second, there was one
    20 back a couple years ago, it's one that came
    21 out in the last several months, haven't
    22 seen --
    23 A. No, I haven't seen that.
    24 Q. So you don't know what Dr.
    25 Doberson said in that, do you?


    1 A. No.
    2 Q. But he wasn't employed by the
    3 Boulder Police Department, among other things,
    4 to look at the stun gun issue, true?
    5 A. I don't know that he was employed
    6 but they went to him. Trujillo and Wickman
    7 I know did.
    8 Q. What did the Boulder Police
    9 Department conclude caused these marks found
    10 on JonBenet Ramsey's back?
    11 MR. DIAMOND: Do you want to
    12 identify what you're putting in front of him
    13 just for --
    14 MR. WOOD: I'm going to mark it
    15 and I'll do it by copy. I don't want to
    16 mark on this color copy but this will be
    17 Defendants' 4.
    18 MR. DIAMOND: Will you identify
    19 what it is for the record?
    20 MR. WOOD: It's an autopsy
    21 photograph of JonBenet Ramsey.
    22 MR. DIAMOND: Does it have a
    23 number on it or something?
    24 MR. WOOD: I just put a number on
    25 it, a 4 just so I can copy it and mark it


    1 later. If you'll just hang on to it. I
    2 don't want you to be flipping through there.
    3 There is one picture I am going to ask him
    4 about in a moment.
    5 MR. DIAMOND: Yeah.
    6 (Exhibit-4 and Exhibit-5 marked.)
    7 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) What did the
    8 Boulder Police Department determine caused
    9 those marks on JonBenet Ramsey's back as
    10 shown on Defendants' Exhibit 4?
    11 A. I don't know that the Boulder
    12 Police Department as an entity formed a
    13 consensus opinion, but relying on the experts
    14 in this case, and Detective Trujillo
    15 specifically who was assigned to the stun gun
    16 investigation told us and I remember seeing
    17 it that Werner Spitz concluded, I believe,
    18 what was believed to be stun gun marks may
    19 have been a patterned object, if I recall
    20 correctly, or I think another explanation was
    21 on her back lying on some sort of object.
    22 Q. That was Dr. Spitz only?
    23 A. Well, Dr. Spitz completed a report
    24 on that. I think Dr. Lee had some opinion
    25 on it. Certainly Trujillo filed information


    1 about that.
    2 Q. I'm going to show you defense
    3 Exhibit Number 5, which two photos, one is
    4 obviously Number 4 and then 5 is a picture
    5 of JonBenet's side of her face. There were
    6 two marks on her face. The marks on her
    7 face and the marks on her back were the same
    8 distance apart, right?
    9 A. I don't know that those were
    10 identical. I have heard --
    11 Q. Do you deny that?
    12 A. I have heard Mr. Smit say that
    13 they were identical. I have heard Trujillo
    14 say they're not.
    15 Q. That the marks were not --
    16 shouldn't one just measure this, sir?
    17 A. Unfortunately you would have to, I
    18 think, triangulate it off of a photo because
    19 they weren't measured, my understanding, at
    20 autopsy.
    21 Q. Do you choose to believe Dr. --
    22 Mr. Smit or Mr. Trujillo in terms of that
    23 issue or do you just not have a position one
    24 way or the other in terms of the distance
    25 part of the two set matched pairs?


    1 A. I don't believe necessarily either
    2 of them. But I have heard Mr. Smit and
    3 Mr. Trujillo had conflicting measurements on
    4 that picture.
    5 Q. But one thing for sure, you
    6 believe, I think you would say and have said
    7 before, that if a stun gun was used on
    8 JonBenet that that is significant evidence
    9 that would point away from a family member or
    10 parent, right?
    11 A. I don't know where I have said
    12 that.
    13 Q. You have never said that?
    14 A. I don't know where I have said
    15 that, Mr. Wood.
    16 Q. Do you deny that?
    17 A. Refresh my memory. Where do you
    18 think I have said that?
    19 Q. Do you deny that or is that
    20 accurate?
    21 A. I think, and for the record let
    22 me just say, one other expert that I know
    23 the Boulder Police Department consulted were I
    24 think stun gun reps, manufacturers or people
    25 in the stun gun industry.


    1 Q. Do you know their names?
    2 A. I don't. I think somebody from
    3 Air Tazer.
    4 Q. Were there reports filed?
    5 A. There certainly should be. As far
    6 as do I deny -- well, let me put my answer
    7 this way. I would agree to an extent that
    8 it may be or would be less likely that a
    9 parent would be involved in the stun gunning
    10 of a child. Maybe I'm naive in that
    11 thinking, as the FBI agents told us they have
    12 seen children murdered in the most horrendous
    13 of ways, but I won't dispute you on that
    14 point today.
    15 Q. You would tell me, too, that if
    16 JonBenet Ramsey was alive when she was
    17 strangled and alive when she was molested and
    18 that there is evidence of a struggle in her
    19 neck area, that if you assume those facts to
    20 be true, that that would be inconsistent with
    21 staging of a crime, correct?
    22 A. I don't agree with the premise.
    23 I agree with the expert Dr. Spitz' conclusion
    24 on that.
    25 Q. I'm asking you, though, sir.


    1 You're talking about staging the crime. If
    2 JonBenet were struggling to try to get the
    3 garrote loose, that certainly would be
    4 inconsistent with the parent staging a crime
    5 thinking her child was dead, true?
    6 A. Mr. Smit did present to the police
    7 department that theory.
    8 Q. But I'm not asking about Mr. Smit
    9 with all due respect.
    10 A. I'm trying to answer the question.
    11 Q. I'm asking you about the concept
    12 itself. If the child is found to be
    13 struggling to get at the garrote, that would
    14 be totally inconsistent with the idea of
    15 staging by a parent who thought the child was
    16 dead. I mean, that's just one and one
    17 equals two, doesn't it, sir?
    18 A. Two different concepts. I
    19 disagree. I think that, as I've have said,
    20 I think parents have killed their children in
    21 a variety of ways.
    22 Q. I'm talking about staging where
    23 you think your child is dead or your child
    24 is dead and you're trying to stage a crime
    25 scene. After the fact that's staging, right,


    1 to make it look like something that it's not,
    2 true?
    3 A. Staging, my understanding is just
    4 that, recreating or messing with a crime
    5 scene to divert attention, making it appear
    6 something that it's not.
    7 Q. Then if you've got a child that
    8 is trying to pull at the garrote, that would
    9 not be consistent at all with the parent
    10 placing a garrote and tightening it around
    11 the child's neck to make it appear that the
    12 child was strangled as part of staging a
    13 crime, would it, sir, can't you --
    14 A. No.
    15 Q. -- acknowledge that --
    16 A. I'm not going to go along with
    17 that and agree to it.
    18 Q. Why not?
    19 A. I just don't agree with it.
    20 Q. So Patsy Ramsey theoretically had
    21 JonBenet Ramsey there pulling at this garrote
    22 around her neck, scratching at it and you
    23 still believe that the garrote would have
    24 been placed there by Patsy Ramsey to stage
    25 the crime; is that what your testimony is?


    1 A. If that's what you're telling me,
    2 I won't dispute that's what happened.
    3 Q. Do you believe that is what
    4 happened?
    5 A. No. I've offered a hypothesis
    6 that I believe was consistent with the
    7 evidence as I knew it, that possibly what
    8 happened.
    9 Q. Let me ask you something about the
    10 use of the word hypothesis. Where did you
    11 come up with that word? You use it in
    12 almost every interview.
    13 A. I don't know, in school somewhere.
    14 Q. As it applies to your book?
    15 A. No, you asked me where I learned
    16 the word hypothesis.
    17 Q. Are you prepared to state as a
    18 fact, sir, that Patsy Ramsey murdered her
    19 daughter?
    20 A. No, I'm prepared --
    21 Q. Thank you.
    22 A. -- to say, as I have in the past,
    23 that that's my belief.
    24 Q. Do you know of any prosecutor who
    25 is familiar with the evidence that has


    1 concluded that the evidence shows beyond a
    2 reasonable doubt that Patsy Ramsey is guilty
    3 of the homicide of her daughter?
    4 A. No, because the prosecutors privy
    5 to that evidence are bound by grand jury
    6 secrecy and none have violated that with me.
    7 Q. Did you ever take this case to a
    8 prosecutor? I know you all had the Dream
    9 Team that was helping the police department.
    10 I want to know whether you ever had a
    11 prosecutor outside of the seven that were
    12 involved in this case that at least
    13 Mr. Hunter tells us did not believe that
    14 sufficient evidence existed to charge and
    15 prosecute Patsy Ramsey. Did you ever take it
    16 to a prosecutor and present it to ask someone
    17 else outside of Boulder whether that
    18 prosecutor believed that this case had
    19 evidence justifying prosecution to prove guilt
    20 beyond a reasonable doubt; did you ever do
    21 that?
    22 A. Did we ever pack up our or me
    23 case file and take it and do a presentation
    24 for an outside prosecutor to see if he
    25 thought or would prosecute this case? No,


    1 not that I'm aware of.
    2 Q. Did you ever do it at any time as
    3 you sit here today?
    4 A. Take it to a prosecutor?
    5 Q. Did you take your information,
    6 what you knew in all those hundred of pages,
    7 that hopefully you'll be able to find now
    8 that you'll go look for them in response to
    9 that subpoena, and take that to an
    10 experienced prosecutor and say, give me your
    11 opinion on whether this justifies a
    12 prosecution in terms of whether this is
    13 sufficient evidence to prove guilt beyond a
    14 reasonable doubt? Did you ever do that?
    15 That's my question.
    16 A. No, I have friends that are
    17 prosecutors but I never went and did a case
    18 presentation of any sort to try to elicit
    19 their support in moving forward with the
    20 prosecution.
    21 Q. All right. Or to give you an
    22 opinion on what the evidence pro and con
    23 would say to an experienced prosecutor?
    24 A. I don't know what you're referring
    25 to, Mr. Wood.


    1 Q. You would have to give them your
    2 evidence and you would have to give them the
    3 intruder evidence and you would have to say,
    4 please, weigh this and tell me because I
    5 don't like Alex Hunter and I don't believe
    6 that Alex Hunter is doing the right thing in
    7 not filing charges or getting an indictment
    8 and tell me if you think as an experienced
    9 prosecutor the case is here to bring charges;
    10 did you ever do that?
    11 A. No, I never had some sort of case
    12 presentation like that, no.
    13 Q. Why did you not, when you had old
    14 Barry Scheck, a nice guy, Henry Lee, all
    15 these VIPs there, why did you not include the
    16 intruder evidence in the presentation to
    17 objectively give those individuals both sides
    18 of the case?
    19 A. Because the Boulder Police
    20 Department's position was, as I understood it
    21 and understand it, the VIP presentation was
    22 to show that there was sufficient probable
    23 cause to arrest Patsy Ramsey and for the DA's
    24 office to move it forward through the use of
    25 a grand jury with that end in mind.


    1 Q. Of an indictment which is a
    2 finding by a grand jury of probable cause to
    3 charge or arrest, right?
    4 A. Yes.
    5 Q. You've been in the business long
    6 enough to know that the grand jury can, as
    7 they say, indict a ham sandwich, right? It
    8 doesn't take much evidence to indict or
    9 arrest, does it, sir?
    10 A. My understanding of probable cause
    11 is facts and evidence and circumstances that
    12 are within the knowledge of a police officer
    13 that would lead a reasonable person to
    14 conclude that, A, a crime was committed and
    15 B, that a particular individual was involved.
    16 Sometimes, depending on the case,
    17 that can sometimes be a great threshold.
    18 Q. And sometimes it can be a very
    19 small threshold, true?
    20 A. A lesser threshold.
    21 Q. Were you ever told by anyone that
    22 the reason the Ramsey lawyers were allowed to
    23 see the garrote and to see the firsthand
    24 original of the ransom note is because both
    25 items were getting ready to be tested in a


    1 fashion that would be destructive and that
    2 from a strategical standpoint somewhere down
    3 the road it might be advantageous for the
    4 defense lawyers not to be able to claim foul
    5 by saying that they didn't have a chance to
    6 observe these pieces of evidence before they
    7 were destroyed? Did you ever hear that
    8 explanation given as to why the Ramsey
    9 lawyers were allowed to look at those two
    10 items?
    11 A. No. But then again it was
    12 difficult to get much by way of explanation
    13 as to why Mr. Hofstrom was making a number
    14 of deals with the Ramsey attorneys.
    15 Q. Doesn't that make good sense
    16 though, just listening to it?
    17 A. Well, I am familiar as a police
    18 officer that in Colorado if destructive
    19 testing is employed, the defense has a right
    20 to be present.
    21 Q. You indicated at page 297 of your
    22 book consistent with the Boulder police, I
    23 will tell you a press release in June of '98
    24 that you all had collected 1,058 items of
    25 evidence. Does that sound about right?


    1 A. You know, this was a Beckner --
    2 Q. It's at page 297 in your book.
    3 A. I know.
    4 Q. You adopted it as true, didn't
    5 you?
    6 A. If I can answer the question.
    7 Q. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm just trying
    8 to move along.
    9 A. Beckner put together this as, I
    10 think you're right, as some sort of a press
    11 release, but I don't disagree with these
    12 numbers.
    13 Q. How many of those 1,058 pieces of
    14 evidence were shared with the Ramseys or the
    15 Ramsey lawyers?
    16 A. I don't know.
    17 Q. You consulted 500 -- you
    18 interviewed 590 people. How many of those
    19 interviews were given to the Ramseys or the
    20 Ramseys' lawyers?
    21 A. I don't know.
    22 Q. Consulted 64 outside experts. How
    23 many of those experts' reports were given to
    24 the Ramseys' lawyers or the Ramseys --
    25 A. Mr. Wood, you would know much


    1 better than I how much --
    2 Q. I've got to tell you, Mr. Thomas,
    3 I do know and I've got about 14 pages and I
    4 could be off by one or two and yet everybody
    5 keeps describing this incredible amount of
    6 evidence given to the Ramseys and their
    7 lawyers. I'm just trying to go figure out
    8 where it is because that's not what I've got
    9 and that's not what their lawyer has got. I
    10 mean, I understand they got to see the
    11 garrote and I understand they got to see the
    12 first generation ransom note and I didn't get
    13 that.
    14 But I got the few pages,
    15 incomplete pages of police reports that were
    16 bargained off with respect to the April '97
    17 interview, right?
    18 A. (Deponent nods head.)
    19 Q. And I don't have any more reports.
    20 I don't know of any others that were given
    21 to John and Patsy Ramsey according to their
    22 lawyers and I'm just trying to figure out
    23 what you were talking about when you say you
    24 were describing on page 56 the incredible
    25 amount of evidence given to the Ramseys and


    1 their lawyers?
    2 A. Courtesy of Pete Hofstrom and I
    3 believe others in the DA's office who did
    4 this verbally so much was shared by Pete
    5 Hofstrom's own admission. If you're just
    6 talking about hard copy documents, I don't
    7 know what they do or you do or don't have.
    8 Q. Take a look at page 58 for me.
    9 I don't think I have asked you this. "Some
    10 friends" -- the very bottom of 58 on to 59.
    11 "Some friends of Patsy's were concerned about
    12 how JonBenet was being groomed for pageants
    13 with the heavy makeup, the elaborate costumes
    14 and recent addition of platinum-dyed hair.
    15 It was creating a 'mega-JonBenet thing,' and
    16 some friends had planned to have a talk about
    17 it with Patsy after Christmas."
    18 Who were the friends that were
    19 concerned about how JonBenet was being
    20 groomed, identify those for me?
    21 A. On the record this was per Barb
    22 Fernie and I think it included her, Priscilla
    23 White and a third party.
    24 Q. Who was the third party?
    25 A. I don't know.


    1 Q. Were they the same people that had
    2 planned to have a talk about it with Patsy
    3 after Christmas?
    4 A. That was my understanding and,
    5 again, that's on the record with Barb Fernie.
    6 Q. And quote, end quote, mega-JonBenet
    7 thing, whose phrase was that?
    8 A. Barb Fernie.
    9 Q. On page 180 of your book you
    10 describe some kind of chilling experiences
    11 that you had about a cat being killed,
    12 mutilated and thrown on to your lawn and
    13 garden hose sliced and your wife's flower
    14 garden shredded, sergeant Whitson having shots
    15 fired into his bedroom, Linda Arndt having
    16 blood on her front door.
    17 My question is you're not in any
    18 way implying or intending to imply that John
    19 or Patsy Ramsey had the slightest to do with
    20 any of those events, are you?
    21 A. No, not now nor did I do it in
    22 the book.
    23 Q. I just wanted to make sure. I
    24 didn't think you were certainly. Who put the
    25 screen saver on at the Boulder Police


    1 Department that said, quote, The Ramseys are
    2 the killers?
    3 A. I don't know who applied that to
    4 the computer screen.
    5 Q. Did you think that was
    6 professional?
    7 A. Oh, sometimes police humor can be
    8 less than professional behind closed doors.
    9 Q. Well, did you suggest it might be
    10 better to take that off since you were in
    11 the process of investigation, there were a
    12 number of suspects beyond the Ramseys?
    13 A. I did not make that suggestion.
    14 Q. How long did it stay on the
    15 computer?
    16 A. I don't know. I recall seeing it
    17 a few times over the course of a week or
    18 two.
    19 Q. Was it up in 1997?
    20 A. That's when we were over at the
    21 DA's war room.
    22 Q. When was that, when was the war
    23 room?
    24 A. Summer of 1997.
    25 Q. So that's when it was up, summer


    1 of '97, right?
    2 A. Yes.
    3 Q. Do you know who was the policeman
    4 or detective who had a picture of Susan Smith
    5 tacked to the wall in the war room?
    6 A. I don't know who tacked that up
    7 or who claimed ownership of that.
    8 Q. You have been accused of trying to
    9 go out and shop experts to support the
    10 conclusion that you had already come up with
    11 in May of 1997 that Patsy was the killer.
    12 Can you see why someone would make that
    13 suggestion, Mr. Thomas --
    14 MR. DIAMOND: May I have that
    15 read back, please.
    16 MR. WOOD: I can read it.
    17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) You know you have,
    18 I think -- maybe I shouldn't make that
    19 assumption. Are you aware that there has
    20 been accusations against you that you had
    21 early on made up your mind before the
    22 investigation was complete and that you went
    23 out and shopped experts to try to find
    24 somebody on handwriting, somebody on sexual,
    25 chronic sexual abuse, to try to support the


    1 conclusion that you had already drawn? Are
    2 you aware of accusations made against you in
    3 that light?
    4 A. I know that those accusations were
    5 made against the police team and they flew
    6 back and forth with the DA's team.
    7 Q. From the timing standpoint, it
    8 appears that one could certainly make that as
    9 a plausible argument because you're out here,
    10 a lead detective, within the first few months
    11 having decided that Patsy is the killer. A
    12 lot of the experts have not been hired at
    13 that point, true?
    14 A. Again, those are your words. I
    15 think I have characterized it as trying to
    16 follow what I have called an abundance of
    17 evidence leading in a particular direction.
    18 Q. But at some point you concluded,
    19 and the record will speak very clearly about
    20 what you said, you say you followed that
    21 evidence. But early in 1997, within the
    22 first few months, you had drawn your
    23 conclusion, right?
    24 A. That it appeared based on the
    25 evidence that she was not only a good


    1 suspect, but appeared to be the offender.
    2 Q. And there were a number of experts
    3 that at that point had not even been hired
    4 to review evidence; isn't that true?
    5 A. Yes.
    6 Q. There was a lot of evidence that
    7 has never even been collected or even
    8 requested, true?
    9 A. Such as the clothing?
    10 Q. The clothes, that's a key piece of
    11 evidence, isn't it, sir?
    12 A. Correct. As I have said, that
    13 was a mistake.
    14 Q. Yeah, and it was one of many
    15 mistakes, wasn't it?
    16 A. I'm not here today defending the
    17 police department.
    18 Q. I'm not asking you to defend the
    19 police department.
    20 A. Yeah, there were many mistakes.


  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    21 Q. Was Jeff Shapiro your confidential
    22 informant on any areas other than information
    23 from Alex Hunter's office?
    24 A. He was -- this kid was all over
    25 the board and he --


    1 Q. I meant for you, though, please.
    2 A. I'm sorry?
    3 Q. I'm just asking, you described him
    4 as my confidential informant and I just want
    5 to see any areas other than to give you
    6 information about Hunter in his office that
    7 he was a confidential informant on for you?
    8 A. Were other detectives using him?
    9 Q. No. Were you using him for
    10 anything other than to find out about what
    11 was going on with Alex Hunter?
    12 A. Yeah. As I started to say this
    13 kid was all over the board and would bring
    14 into the police department everything from A
    15 to Z. And most of it was nothing but
    16 occasionally and I can't think of anything
    17 right now, he may bring something in of
    18 interest. But in particular, yes, it was --
    19 I was most interested in him for the
    20 information he was providing about Hunter and
    21 the DA's office.
    22 Q. At page 232 of your book -- I
    23 apologize, I apparently have gotten the wrong
    24 cite in my record. Oh, 236, I'm sorry, 236
    25 where you say first paragraph under the line


    1 right here "With our Dream Team, we tallied
    2 the points supporting probable cause and found
    3 more than 50 items."
    4 A. Yes, I'm with you.
    5 Q. When was that tally made? Date
    6 that for me.
    7 A. Mr. Wood, I can't date it
    8 specifically but they assisted us in our
    9 preparation for the VIP presentation and just
    10 a quick reading of this was maybe spring or
    11 late spring of '98. But no, it was before
    12 that because later in the paragraph it talks
    13 about the Title-3, which was way back before
    14 Christmas '97. So this was, I would guess,
    15 late '97, early to spring of '98.
    16 Q. Can I -- I don't have the time
    17 today, at least, to ask you to go through
    18 and list those 50 items. But can I be
    19 reasonably confident that if I set about
    20 myself in your book that I could find
    21 reference to those 50 items in this book,
    22 that you have included those somewhere in
    23 here?
    24 A. No, I can't commit to that because
    25 of what was, I remember there was an easel


    1 that was used in which everybody in the room
    2 put out evidence, information, that sort of
    3 thing that went on to this 50-plus point
    4 probable cause board.
    5 Q. So it may have been all of your
    6 points, you may have --
    7 A. It certainly wasn't.
    8 Q. You may not agree with all of
    9 them?
    10 A. Right.
    11 Q. The 245, 246, you talk about your
    12 headlights sweeping across JonBenet's grave
    13 and you see the marble headstone "JonBenet
    14 Patricia Ramsey, August 6th, 1990-December 25,
    15 1996. It was a clue from nowhere."
    16 And as I understand it, the clue
    17 was that the dates on the grave was a
    18 statement by the parents that JonBenet had
    19 died before midnight, right?
    20 A. This is gravesite surveillance
    21 number two that we're talking about, right?
    22 Q. I'm talking about -- I'm talking
    23 about right here on page 245 and then at the
    24 top of 246 "It was a clue from nowhere."
    25 "For some reason the parents were stating


    1 that JonBenet had died before midnight"?
    2 A. Right.
    3 MR. DIAMOND: Take as much time
    4 as you need to put that in context.
    5 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) If the parents had
    6 placed the date of December 26, 1996 on the
    7 tombstone of their daughter, would you have
    8 concluded that it was a clue from nowhere
    9 because for some reason the parents were
    10 stating that JonBenet had died after midnight?
    11 A. It was a clue I think in either
    12 event given the information immediately
    13 subsequent to, it was a clue from nowhere, I
    14 think -- no, it doesn't. But given the
    15 questionable time of death and how we were
    16 trying to tie that at times to the digestion
    17 of this pineapple certainly made this a clue.
    18 Q. But it would have been a clue of
    19 the 26th if they had chosen the 26th, right,
    20 if they were saying it was a clue to you as
    21 a detective in a homicide case that they're
    22 stating she died after midnight because they
    23 put December 26th, that's the way you would
    24 have interpreted it, right?
    25 A. I don't know because knowing what


    1 I knew then is different than what I know,
    2 but standing in my shoes in that cemetery on
    3 this particular night this was something
    4 unknown to us at the time because the
    5 Ramseys, to my knowledge, had never indicated
    6 a date of death and this thus became a clue
    7 from nowhere.
    8 Q. Have you ever seen a tombstone
    9 where it has alternative dates of death, sir?
    10 A. Never.
    11 Q. Don't you think John and Patsy
    12 Ramsey had to make a choice, and they chose
    13 December 25th, that potentially had nothing to
    14 do with their trying to make a statement
    15 about when she died; did you ever consider
    16 that?
    17 A. Actually, I heard them make just
    18 such a statement -- or make such a statement
    19 saying -- he was trying to make a statement
    20 putting down December 25.
    21 Q. To remind people of what happened
    22 in effect at Christmas to his child?
    23 A. That's my understanding.
    24 Q. But not to state that she died
    25 before midnight. As I understand it, the


    1 only way under your clue analysis as a
    2 homicide detective that the Ramseys could have
    3 avoided being accused one way or the other
    4 would have been had they put on there
    5 December 25 or December 26, 1996; is my logic
    6 right?
    7 A. No, it's not right. As I just
    8 explained knowing what I knew then standing
    9 there looking at it, it appeared to me that
    10 here was a clue that she died on December
    11 25.
    12 MR. WOOD: Why don't we take a
    13 break. I think I'm down to about 15
    14 minutes, and I would like to kind of look
    15 and see where I am and what we might do to
    16 wrap this thing up.
    17 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    18 5:45. We're going off the record.
    19 (Recess taken from 5:45 p.m. to
    20 5:55 p.m.)
    21 MR. WOOD: I will represent if
    22 you give me 25 minutes, I will be done in
    23 terms of my discovery deposition of
    24 Mr. Thomas in the Wolf versus Ramsey case.
    25 I can't speak to Darnay, obviously, because


    1 there was the issue, as you recall, about the
    2 testimonial deposition that is still in the
    3 process, indicated by Judge Carnes to follow,
    4 but I'm done.
    5 In other words, I'm not going to
    6 go bang on Carnes and say, I need 15, 20, 30
    7 more minutes.
    8 (Discussion off the record between
    9 deponent and Mr. Diamond.)
    10 MR. WOOD: You wouldn't be coming
    11 back on my deposition. You would be coming
    12 back on Mr. Hoffman's.
    13 MR. DIAMOND: My understanding of
    14 the conference, and I think the record
    15 transcript will bear this out, is that the
    16 hour that Mr. Hoffman asked for was his
    17 direct testimony for use at trial.
    18 MR. WOOD: No, I disagree with
    19 you. I think Judge Carnes was clear I would
    20 have a discovery deposition to be able to
    21 cross-examine on a testimonial deposition if
    22 Mr. Hoffman chooses to present him by
    23 deposition at a trial or live at trial.
    24 Pretty clear. But be that as it may whether
    25 I'm right or wrong --


    1 MR. DIAMOND: I'm just speaking to
    2 whether Mr. Hoffman is now complete. And my
    3 view --
    4 MR. WOOD: I don't know whether
    5 he intends to take a testimonial deposition
    6 or not, but there is nothing that you and I
    7 can agree to that would prohibit him from
    8 doing so, nor do I think that I can sit here
    9 and agree that I wouldn't come back and take
    10 a testimonial deposition.
    11 I'm trying to finish the discovery
    12 deposition. I'm asking for, in effect, 15,
    13 10 minutes or 18 minutes more than what I
    14 think I'm entitled to.
    15 MR. DIAMOND: Are you planning on
    16 taking a testimonial deposition?
    17 MR. WOOD: I have no way to say
    18 that to you right now. I don't think Darnay
    19 could say that to you right now. We're so
    20 far away from even knowing whether we'll ever
    21 have a testimony. This case could come up
    22 on summary judgment, for gosh sakes, that
    23 could make us a year or two away from even
    24 deciding that point, Chuck; isn't that fair?
    25 MR. RAWLS: That's fair.


    1 MR. DIAMOND: Let me consult for
    2 a moment.
    3 (Discussion off the record between
    4 Mr. Diamond and the deponent.)
    5 MR. DIAMOND: Start.
    6 MR. WOOD: Let's go back on.
    7 Thank you. I'll get it right here on the
    8 money. I'll mark it. You've got 25 minutes
    9 of tape left?
    10 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: I have 35
    11 minutes of tape left.
    12 MR. DIAMOND: You get that on the
    13 record?
    14 MR. WOOD: We know we've used it
    15 up. Nobody can try to sneak more than that
    16 extra ten in.
    17 MR. DIAMOND: Just so the record
    18 is clear, we're agreeing to your proposal.
    19 MR. WOOD: Thank you very much.
    20 I appreciate it. If the opportunity should
    21 ever present itself, I would certainly
    22 consider like accommodation and consider more
    23 if necessary.
    24 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    25 5:58. We're back on the video depo.


    1 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Was the garrote
    2 handle ever tested for fingerprints?
    3 A. I believe so, yes.
    4 Q. Do you know what the findings
    5 were?
    6 A. I believe that Detective Trujillo
    7 told us that it required the unwrapping of
    8 the ligature cord and the -- and it was
    9 negative for any latent prints.
    10 Q. Was there any partial palm print
    11 found on the ransom note?
    12 A. Mr. Wood, I talk about in the
    13 book the prints that were found on the tablet
    14 and the note, but beyond that, I don't have
    15 any real evidence beyond that. Early there
    16 was believed to have been a partial or bladed
    17 palm which I believed turned out to be
    18 nothing.
    19 Q. Do you know whether there was any
    20 effort to take that what was believed to be
    21 a partial palm and compare it to the palm
    22 print found on the wine cellar door?
    23 A. What I'm saying is I don't know
    24 that what was initially believed to be a
    25 partial print was even a print.


    1 Q. It's not uncommon to handle a
    2 piece of paper and not leave fingerprints, is
    3 it, sir?
    4 A. I don't know that.
    5 Q. You don't want me to go there.
    6 The -- as I understand it, there was a
    7 beaver hair, what was identified as a beaver
    8 hair, found on the duct tape?
    9 A. FBI lab identified a hair or fiber
    10 from the adhesive side of the duct tape as a
    11 beaver hair.
    12 Q. Were you aware that Mr. Ainsworth,
    13 Detective Ainsworth, went through the Ramseys'
    14 closets in June of 1997 and taped all the
    15 closets for hairs and that no beaver hair was
    16 found?
    17 A. Yes, but that's not surprising.
    18 Q. Were there also brown and black
    19 animal hairs found on JonBenet Ramsey's hand
    20 that had never been sourced?
    21 A. Brown and black animal hairs on
    22 her hand that had never been sourced? This
    23 is the first I've heard of that.
    24 Q. How about brown cotton fibers that
    25 were found on the duct tape, the cord and


    1 her body that were consistent but no source
    2 found? Is that accurate?
    3 A. That were consistent with what?
    4 Q. They were consistent with each
    5 other, those fibers, the brown cotton fibers
    6 that were consistent with fibers found on
    7 duct tape, cords and her body?
    8 A. That's beyond the scope of what I
    9 know and just to educate you, if you allow
    10 me.
    11 Q. Sure.
    12 A. Anything hair and fiber related,
    13 Trujillo knows.
    14 Q. I think we've already talked about
    15 it was a large number of fibers that were
    16 never sourced, right, while you were there?
    17 A. In the house, yes.
    18 Q. There was a pubic hair, or what
    19 was believed to be a pubic hair, that may
    20 have turned out to be an ancillary hair, but
    21 that hair has never been sourced, as you know
    22 it?
    23 A. As far as I know.
    24 Q. The pineapple, we know the autopsy
    25 statement about the findings. Were there any


    1 tests performed beyond the autopsy on those
    2 contents?
    3 A. Yes.
    4 Q. Tell me about that.
    5 A. What I know about that is
    6 Detective Weinheimer received that assignment
    7 during the course of the investigation,
    8 employed the help of I think a biological --
    9 or a botanist or somebody of some expertise
    10 at the University of Colorado, Boulder. The
    11 name Dr. Bach jumps out at me, as well as
    12 others, and he completed a series of reports
    13 concerning the pineapple and I think to save
    14 time one of those conclusions I think I put
    15 in the book.
    16 Q. About the rinds being identical?
    17 A. That it was a fresh pineapple
    18 consistent -- fresh pineapple with a rind.
    19 Q. Rind being consistent -- oh, with
    20 a rind but consistent with pineapple found in
    21 the house or in the bowl?
    22 A. Yeah, and let me clarify that,
    23 pineapple consistent down to the rind with
    24 pineapple found in the bowl in the kitchen.
    25 Q. Consistent down to the rind. It


    1 seems to me pineapple with rind is pineapple
    2 with rind. Was there something unique about
    3 this particular rind?
    4 A. I think they were able to
    5 determine -- well, in fact, I know that
    6 fellow Officer Weinheimer disclosed to us that
    7 they were able to characterize it as a fresh
    8 pineapple rather than a canned pineapple.
    9 Q. Okay.
    10 A. I think the investigation lent
    11 itself as far as, and Detective Weinheimer is
    12 a capable investigator, as far as contacting
    13 Dole Pineapple in Hawaii, et cetera.
    14 Q. Do you know whether there were any
    15 other reports on the pineapple, other than
    16 the autopsy reports and Dr. Bach's reports?
    17 A. Yeah, there was a series of
    18 reports on Weinheimer's investigation.
    19 Q. Do you know anybody else by name
    20 that was involved in that, other than the Dr.
    21 Bach? I mean, Dole didn't give you any
    22 report, did they?
    23 A. No, not that I'm aware of.
    24 Sorry, the names escape me but there are
    25 other reports with other planters, I guess,


    1 pineapple, for lack of a better term,
    2 experts.
    3 Q. Any of those reports, anybody come
    4 up with something that was inconclusive in
    5 terms of findings?
    6 A. I'm sorry, I don't recall the
    7 content of the reports.
    8 Q. At Quantico, was there one FBI
    9 agent that said at the end of discussion that
    10 the Boulder police should keep an open mind
    11 on the case because it could be a sex
    12 offender?
    13 A. Yes.
    14 Q. Who was that agent?
    15 A. I believe that was Ken Lanning.
    16 Q. Did you all ever have a dump
    17 placed on the Ramsey phone?
    18 A. Like a trap and trace or a wire
    19 tap?
    20 Q. An LUD or an Amadump, where you
    21 actually go in and get the outgoing calls and
    22 the incoming calls?
    23 A. What that sounds, in the jargon
    24 I'm familiar with, Mr. Wood, is in Colorado
    25 we would call that like a trap and trace.


    1 But I think it's different because you have
    2 to be up on the trap and trace to record
    3 incoming/outgoing, also known as a pen
    4 register. But a dump, whereas anything prior
    5 -- I'm not explaining this well.
    6 Q. Let me see if I can help. Was
    7 there a mechanism in Boulder that would allow
    8 you to go to the phone company and say I
    9 want you to go back and tell me today on the
    10 26th of December all outgoing and ingoing
    11 calls to the Ramsey number for, say, the last
    12 two or three days?
    13 A. No.
    14 Q. You had to do it forward, not
    15 backward?
    16 A. Right, I'm not familiar with any
    17 -- the phone company here having any
    18 capability to do that.
    19 Q. Do you know for a fact that they
    20 could not?
    21 A. With the exception, and I don't
    22 know how detailed you want to get into this,
    23 but certainly toll calls, toll calls you can
    24 certainly go back and retrieve.
    25 Q. Long-distance toll calls?


    1 A. Yeah.
    2 Q. Did you all do that with the
    3 Ramsey records?
    4 A. I think so.
    5 Q. There has been a lot of debate
    6 about whether or not John Ramsey or Patsy
    7 Ramsey or some of the Ramsey family before
    8 the murder of JonBenet owned the book Mind
    9 Hunter by John Douglas. Have you ever seen
    10 a photograph of that from a crime scene photo
    11 in their house?
    12 A. No, but Tom Wickman swears up and
    13 down it was in the parents' bedroom.
    14 Q. Does anyone else, besides Tom
    15 Wickman, swear that up and down?
    16 A. No, but Tom Wickman has told that
    17 to several people.
    18 Q. Where in the bedroom?
    19 A. I was always under the impression
    20 as we recollect it now on one of the two
    21 night stands.
    22 Q. By John's bed or by Patsy's?
    23 A. I'm sorry, it's one or the other,
    24 I thought. Maybe I -- no, maybe I
    25 referenced it in the book, maybe I didn't.


    1 All I can tell you right now is on one of
    2 the night stands.
    3 Q. Did you keep a -- but Wickman is
    4 the only person that says that, right?
    5 A. As far as crime scene people that
    6 were in the house.
    7 Q. Or anybody.
    8 A. Yeah, Wickman is the source of
    9 Mind Hunter by Douglas.
    10 Q. Anyone else, besides Wickman, is
    11 all I'm trying to find out?
    12 A. Not that I'm aware of.
    13 Q. Did you keep a Frank Coffman
    14 article called -- from the column Clues
    15 Abound folded up in your badge wallet at any
    16 point in time?
    17 A. If we're talking about Frank
    18 Coffman -- no, I don't I recall the article
    19 if we're talking about the same article,
    20 which I had cut out, which I had at my desk
    21 at the Boulder Police Department.
    22 Q. Did you meet with Frank Coffman
    23 and Jeff Shapiro one day and reach into your
    24 badge wallet and unfold the article and show
    25 it to Frank and Jeff and say basically, guys,


    1 you're right about where I'm coming from,
    2 words to that effect?
    3 A. No. Again, I was very careful
    4 with Shapiro and didn't know Coffman, but I
    5 do acknowledge of being in possession of that
    6 article. If I had it in my wallet, I don't
    7 know.
    8 Q. You have told me about what you
    9 have described and we'll leave it to your
    10 description on the record, your feelings about
    11 Alex Hunter. You're aware of, I think, Alex
    12 Hunter's feelings of you and descriptions of
    13 you as somebody out for blood money, a rogue
    14 detective, we'll leave it at that, and maybe
    15 others. You're aware of those things being
    16 said publicly by Mr. Hunter about you?
    17 A. Yes, sir.
    18 Q. When did the -- I mean, there is
    19 a level of animosity between the two of you
    20 and that's probably politely stated; wouldn't
    21 you agree?
    22 A. Yes, sir.
    23 Q. When did that start? Did it
    24 exist before the Ramsey case?
    25 A. I didn't know Hunter before the


    1 Ramsey case.
    2 Q. When in the scale of things do
    3 you think you can say to yourself that you
    4 formulated opinions that you hold about Alex
    5 Hunter? And you don't have to answer for
    6 him I'll ask him at the appropriate time. I
    7 want to know when you felt like you were
    8 sitting there thinking I can't believe a word
    9 this man speaks?
    10 A. Mr. Wood, that was a -- certainly
    11 there was a culture inside the police
    12 department that existed years or a couple of
    13 decades before I even arrived there in which
    14 the DA's office and the police department had
    15 a terrible working relationship. But not
    16 knowing Mr. Hunter until our involvement on
    17 this case together, that was very incremental
    18 in fashion or incremental in stages, but by
    19 the time I left the police department, it was
    20 certainly at its height.
    21 I was very dismayed and
    22 disappointed and had no love for Hunter after
    23 some of these revelations by Shapiro.
    24 Q. You state in your book there were
    25 27 reasons for a grand jury and it's at page


    1 309. But my question is, were those 27
    2 reasons for a grand jury correlate to the 27
    3 remaining tasks that were referred to in that
    4 June '98 press release by the Boulder Police
    5 Department?
    6 A. Let me look at 309 real quickly.
    7 308, 309?
    8 Q. It's on 309 and I've got a copy
    9 of that press release where he says there
    10 were 27 tasks remaining. I'm just wondering
    11 if that's the correlation.
    12 A. Oh, if I understand you correctly,
    13 did these 27 reasons correspond with the 27
    14 tasks left on the to-do list?
    15 Q. Yes.
    16 A. No.
    17 Q. You do acknowledge having said
    18 that the idea of Patsy Ramsey going
    19 downstairs and putting a garrote around
    20 JonBenet's neck is a hard leap to make, your
    21 words on --
    22 A. Yes, a lot of people, as I said,
    23 myself included, but maybe in a naive way but
    24 after learning what the FBI taught us about
    25 child homicide, as I said, they've seen


    1 children destroyed and killed in the most
    2 grotesque and worst manners imaginable.
    3 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: Careful, your
    4 mike is --
    5 MR. WOOD: I'm making noises.
    6 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Burden of Proof
    7 4/17/2000, Greta Van Sustren said to Alex
    8 Hunter, In the Ramsey book Patsy and John
    9 Ramsey write that John has been excluded from
    10 being the author of the note and that Patsy
    11 on a one to five scale, five meaning
    12 excluded, hit 4.5. Do you endorse those two
    13 findings?
    14 Hunter: Well, I think that's
    15 close, but I think that this is a mumbo
    16 jumbo area.
    17 Do you ever remember hearing -- I
    18 had mentioned this to you earlier and I found
    19 the transcript. Do you recall hearing that
    20 Alex Hunter had basically agreed with the 4.5
    21 finding?
    22 A. As I said earlier, no, I didn't
    23 see that or read that transcript.
    24 Q. There has been some reference to
    25 an FBI statistic that 50 percent of child


    1 homicides are committed by family members.
    2 Do you recall that statistic?
    3 A. I don't.
    4 Q. Or it's 54 percent, I think?
    5 A. I think the statistics that we had
    6 at Quantico at that big FBI meeting, they
    7 gave us some statistics. I may have them in
    8 the book, but you would have to lead me to
    9 them.
    10 Q. Who is the pediatric expert that
    11 thought that there may have been some
    12 corporal punishment inflicted on JonBenet for
    13 repeated bed wetting?
    14 A. Dr. Krugman.
    15 Q. Steve Thomas: What was
    16 interesting is that we found no history or
    17 pathology or evidence to indicate that John
    18 Ramsey had any untoward relationship or
    19 discipline with his children. Is that true?
    20 A. I've never thought that.
    21 Q. I found Patsy Ramsey to be a
    22 complex person on many levels but there had
    23 been no reported history of any abuse in the
    24 house; is that true?
    25 A. What are you reading from,


    1 Mr. Wood?
    2 Q. A CNN chat transcript, CNN April
    3 14th, 2000, Author Steve Thomas tells his
    4 story.
    5 A. Can you reread for me the Patsy
    6 Ramsey section?
    7 Q. Be glad to. I found Patsy Ramsey
    8 to be a complex person on many levels but
    9 there had been no reported history of any
    10 abuse in the house.
    11 Is that true?
    12 A. Yeah, we had no reported incidents
    13 of any abuse in the house.
    14 Q. 331, the second full paragraph, it
    15 starts with "Fleet and Priscilla White were
    16 being hauled over the coals because they
    17 wanted to see their previous statements,
    18 pointing out that they were being denied the
    19 same privilege given to the Ramseys"?
    20 A. Yes.
    21 Q. "Chief Mark Beckman declared to
    22 the Whites, who had supported another
    23 candidate for his new job, were 'morally
    24 empty' and again suggested putting Fleet White
    25 in jail."


    1 When did that occur?
    2 A. That was late spring, I believe,
    3 of '98, certainly in 1998. But I recall
    4 this.
    5 Q. Do you recall Mark Beckner ever
    6 asking you if you thought that Fleet White
    7 could possibly be the murderer?
    8 A. Mr. Wood, I think maybe even in
    9 this same passage.
    10 Q. I think that's where it is, here
    11 it is, I'm sorry. "'For what?' I had asked
    12 Beckner incredulously. Beckner later asked me
    13 if Fleet could possibly be the murderer."
    14 Have I read that correctly?
    15 A. Yes.
    16 Q. That would have been a comment
    17 made in 1998 by Chief Beckner?
    18 A. That's correct.
    19 Q. You talk about in your book that
    20 JonBenet was an incredible little kid, right?
    21 A. Are we on the last page?
    22 Q. I think it's -- it's page 353 of
    23 your hardback?
    24 A. Right.
    25 Q. You talk about something that


    1 sounds a little bit like something I read in
    2 Perfect Murder, Perfect Town about the sun
    3 and the rhythm of the earth beneath her feet.
    4 "She was an incredible little girl who loved
    5 to be tickled. Ms. America was the least
    6 she could have been." Am I reading that
    7 correctly?
    8 A. Yes.
    9 Q. Do you give her parents any credit
    10 for that in terms of bringing her up for
    11 those six years?
    12 A. Certainly.
    13 Q. Did you know a Dr. Monteleone,
    14 M-o-n-t-e-l-e-o-n-e?
    15 A. As a matter of fact, I think
    16 that's the name I could not recall that was
    17 the pediatric expert from St. Louis.
    18 Q. Did he ever indicate that he did
    19 not believe that parents would engage in the
    20 type of staging that was being argued existed
    21 in the Ramsey case in the absence of
    22 pathology?
    23 A. Well, that certainly I think would
    24 contradict what he put in a report on
    25 letterhead to the Boulder Police Department.


    1 Q. So you recall that report. Was
    2 that one of the documents you copied?
    3 A. I don't know --
    4 Q. Or received?
    5 A. -- if that is, but I do recall
    6 that report and in that report I think the
    7 outstanding mention was that he was of the
    8 opinion that she had sustained prior vaginal
    9 trauma prior to December 26 or 25.
    10 Q. There was a pocket knife found on
    11 the basement counter?
    12 A. Which I learned later, right.
    13 Q. And was that ever sourced, to your
    14 knowledge?
    15 A. No. My recollection of that is
    16 terribly vague because I don't know when we
    17 talked about those thousand-plus pieces of
    18 evidence collected, those were potential
    19 pieces of evidence, I think that the pocket
    20 knife may have been collected, but I don't
    21 know. There was the suggestion that I
    22 overheard that that belonged to Burke.
    23 Q. Was that ever sourced to Burke?
    24 A. Not prior to me leaving.
    25 Q. In the Ann Bardach article, I'm


    1 sorry, now I can't find it. Here we go.
    2 It came out of the October '97 Vanity Fair.
    3 There is a reference to the number 74 in
    4 terms of individuals who had had their
    5 handwriting analyzed. Again I apologize, I'll
    6 lean over a minute. Right here, Out of the
    7 74 names submitted for testing Patsy's
    8 handwriting was the only one that set off
    9 alarm bells, end quote. Do you see that?
    10 A. I do.
    11 Q. Was that your statement to her?
    12 A. That may have been. I know that
    13 she talked to other police officers.
    14 Q. Does that mean were those the 74
    15 that maybe now is referenced 73?
    16 A. Possibly.
    17 Q. So that the 73 handwriting
    18 analyses that you refer to in your book were
    19 by virtue of the date of this completed
    20 sometime by September of 1997?
    21 A. Are those one and the same?
    22 Q. Yeah.
    23 A. They may be.
    24 Q. Do you believe there have been 74
    25 handwriting analyses done before you have made


    1 that statement to Ann Bardach?
    2 A. Well, I'm not acknowledging that
    3 it was me necessarily, but if that was me
    4 that would -- certainly I would have said it
    5 holding that belief.
    6 Q. The most sensitive and critical
    7 police and detective reports as well as
    8 reproductions of both the ransom note and the
    9 practice note found the same day had been
    10 given to the Ramseys, the Ramseys' best
    11 defense attorneys are right and sat in
    12 Hunter's office, he mumbled bitterly.
    13 Is that something you believe you
    14 said?
    15 A. I don't know if that was Arndt or
    16 me or who that was. I don't disagree with
    17 the sentiment.
    18 Q. One day in early July I was
    19 contacted by a source with firsthand knowledge
    20 of the investigation. I arranged to meet
    21 with him in a parking lot outside Boulder
    22 Edgy, and fearfully he said he was speaking
    23 to me only as a last resort. He said that
    24 a flow of privileged confidential information
    25 critical to a case against the Ramseys had


    1 been leaked from the DA's office to the
    2 Ramseys' lawyers with the efficiency of a
    3 seed.
    4 Is that you?
    5 A. It could be.
    6 Q. If the Ramseys had been some poor
    7 Mexican couple, they would have been in their
    8 face for a week, got a confession out of
    9 them and filed first degree murder charges
    10 against them within days, quote unquote.
    11 Does that sound like something you
    12 may have told her?
    13 A. I don't know if I made that
    14 statement. A statement that sounds similar
    15 to what I have said in the past is had this
    16 been an indigent or minority couple I think
    17 we would have handled this case entirely
    18 different.
    19 Q. She said -- she prefaced that by
    20 saying, It's cold outside and I suggest that
    21 we find a late night coffee shop in the car.
    22 I can see the depth of this man's agitation.
    23 Quote, I have never seen politics and
    24 preferential treatment play such a major role
    25 in a case. He says that had the Ramseys


    1 been some poor Mexican couple.
    2 That's you, isn't it?
    3 A. Typically -- I met her in the
    4 summer of '97 and typically it's not cold
    5 outside in the summer in Colorado.
    6 Q. It had to be with somebody because
    7 that's when she was here?
    8 A. Right, it's the summertime. It
    9 could be.
    10 Q. I'm down to two minutes. And if
    11 I can take a one-minute break to make sure
    12 that Mr. Rawls wants me to spend my last two
    13 minutes covering any last one or two
    14 questions, I would appreciate it.
    15 MR. DIAMOND: Okay.
    16 MR. WOOD: I also need to go to
    17 the restroom. I held back on the --
    18 MR. DIAMOND: I need to be
    19 downstairs at 6:30.
    20 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    21 6:22. We're off the record.
    22 (Recess taken from 6:22 p.m. to
    23 6:23 p.m.)
    24 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    25 6:23. We're going on the record.


    1 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Mr. Thomas, in
    2 terms of the search of the Ramseys' hard
    3 drive and their computer, was anything found
    4 that was viewed as suspicious or incriminating
    5 in August?
    6 A. There were, I think reams of
    7 documents that came off that recovered hard
    8 drive, but I think as far as, I don't know
    9 if the search included pornography, I think
    10 it did, nothing like that, but there was
    11 other documents that were later used for
    12 Foster. But I --
    13 Q. For handwriting analysis, I'm
    14 talking about beyond use for analysis of
    15 handwriting, anything --
    16 A. You mean suspicious?
    17 Q. Or incriminating?
    18 A. I would have to flip back through
    19 it.
    20 Q. Anything that jumps out at you as
    21 we sit here today?
    22 A. No.
    23 Q. And certainly there is never any
    24 finding despite a fairly extensive search that
    25 in any way linked the Ramseys to any type of


    1 pornography; am I right about that?
    2 A. Not that I'm aware of.
    3 Q. There is a reference to I would
    4 lose it with my two minutes ticking. Let me
    5 ask you, while I'm doing this to look at
    6 page 408, and that's probably going to be the
    7 paperback. I'll let you take a look at my
    8 copy of that.
    9 If I can point you to it,
    10 Mr. Thomas, right here, I've got it written
    11 down page 408, It should be a lesson to
    12 communities across America --
    13 MR. DIAMOND: Can you give us
    14 just a second?
    15 MR. WOOD: Yeah.
    16 MR. DIAMOND: Okay.
    17 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) "It should be a
    18 lesson to communities across America not to
    19 allow any politician to become an emperor and
    20 merely interpret the law as he or she sees
    21 fit."
    22 Have I read that correctly?
    23 A. Yes.
    24 Q. Would you also agree that
    25 communities across America should not allow


    1 any police officer to become an emperor and
    2 merely interpret the law as he or she sees
    3 fit?
    4 MR. DIAMOND: Objection.
    5 Argumentative. You may answer.
    6 A. In the context, again, please, Mr.
    7 Wood.
    8 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Yes, just as a
    9 statement of principle that communities across
    10 America should not allow any police officer
    11 to become an emperor and merely interpret the
    12 law as he or she sees fit, it would apply to
    13 politicians and police officers, wouldn't it?
    14 A. Non committal on that.
    15 Q. You don't have a position on the
    16 difference between a politician and police
    17 officer in terms of interpreting the law?
    18 A. I'll give it some thought.
    19 Q. Okay. Last question, page 181,
    20 the last two questions and then I'm done.
    21 Are you with me?
    22 A. 181.
    23 Q. 181, you make reference to three
    24 FBI agents, intruder theory?
    25 A. Help me. Where on the page?


    1 Q. I'm looking myself. Oh, I'm
    2 sorry, I'm looking at the paperback. 161, I
    3 apologize. Do you see where it starts "Three
    4 FBI agents"?
    5 A. Yes.
    6 Q. What I want to know is if you can
    7 date that for me? "'The case is not being
    8 handled well,' said the CASKU agents."
    9 A. Shortly before I believe the
    10 Ramseys' April 30, 1997 interview.
    11 Q. Can you identify the three agents
    12 for me?
    13 A. Supervisory special agent Bill
    14 Hagmaier, special agent Mike Morrow, and their
    15 partner and the third special agent, his name
    16 just escapes me at the moment.
    17 Q. And those three agents prior to
    18 April 30, 1997 said that the intruder theory
    19 was absurd, Hofstrom needs to act like a
    20 prosecutor not a public defender. Don't do
    21 tomorrow's interview and get a grand jury as
    22 soon as possible, right?
    23 A. Yes.
    24 Q. The final question, page 204.
    25 MR. DIAMOND: And this is the


    1 final question?
    2 MR. WOOD: Yes, I appreciate it
    3 because I think I'm probably 30 seconds over.
    4 MR. DIAMOND: That's all right.
    5 Q. (BY MR. WOOD) "To unlock that
    6 damned S.B.T.C. acronym at the bottom of the
    7 ransom note, I called the U. S. Treasury
    8 Department's Financial Crimes Enforcement
    9 Network. I talked to Linda Percy. 'I've
    10 been waiting for this call for six months.'"
    11 Can you date that call for me,
    12 please, sir?
    13 A. I believe, and I can't
    14 definitively, but I believe that was in the
    15 summer of 1997.
    16 Q. June, July or August of '97, you
    17 believe?
    18 A. As we sit here right now, yeah, I
    19 recall that as being the summer of 1997.
    20 MR. WOOD: Thank you for the
    21 accommodation on the additional time, both to
    22 Mr. Thomas, thank you. Mr. Diamond, thank
    23 you. Mr. Smith, thank you. My portion of
    24 the examination in the Wolf versus Ramsey
    25 case from a discovery standpoint is complete.


    1 MR. RAWLS: As is mine.
    2 MR. DIAMOND: Before we leave, I
    3 believe it's automatic under your
    4 confidentiality order for a period of ten
    5 days after the --
    6 MR. WOOD: After the transcript.
    7 MR. DIAMOND: That there's an
    8 automatic in position of confidentiality. To
    9 the extent I am wrong, we are designating
    10 this as confidential subject --
    11 MR. WOOD: It is.
    12 MR. DIAMOND: -- look, review it.
    13 MR. WOOD: Any deposition is
    14 deemed confidential if you sign on to a
    15 protective order. That's why I thought you
    16 all were --
    17 MR. DIAMOND: I don't know that
    18 we have to sign on to a protective order to
    19 do that, I --
    20 MR. WOOD: I didn't go into any
    21 confidential information as it turned out. I
    22 tried to phrase it in a way that avoided
    23 that problem.
    24 MR. DIAMOND: I appreciate that.
    25 MR. WOOD: I will treat clearly


    1 the statement about his Social Security number
    2 as confidential.
    3 MR. DIAMOND: I think you should
    4 treat the entire contents of this deposition
    5 as confidential.
    6 MR. RAWLS: I think it does say
    7 that for ten days they have a right to
    8 designate --
    9 MR. DIAMOND: Ten days after
    10 receipt.
    11 MR. RAWLS: Receipt of the
    12 transcript.
    13 MR. WOOD: If they sign on to the
    14 provision of the protective order. Whatever
    15 the order says, we're going to do justice by
    16 the order because the last person I want to
    17 see is Julie Carnes telling me I violated her
    18 order. Life is too short.
    19 VIDEO TECHNICIAN: The time is
    20 6:30. We're going off the record.
    21 (WHEREUPON, the deposition recessed
    22 at 6:30 p.m.)
    23 .
    24 .
    25 .


    2 Exhibit Description
    3 1 9/20/01 the calendar
    4 for law enforcement training
    5 2 6/18/97 fax cover sheet from Don
    6 Foster to Gordon Cooper, w/attachments
    7 3 9/18/01 New Ramsey Book to
    8 Hit Stands
    9 4 Photocopy of autopsy photo of JonBenet
    10 Ramsey
    11 5 Photocopy of autopsy photo of JonBenet
    12 Ramsey
    13 (Original exhibits retained by
    14 Attorney Lin Wood.)
    15 .
    16 .
    17 .
    18 .
    19 .
    20 .
    21 .
    22 .
    23 .
    24 .
    25 .


    4 I, Kelly A. Mackereth, Certified
    5 Realtime Reporter, Certified Shorthand
    6 Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter and
    7 Notary Public within the state of Colorado,
    8 do hereby certify that previous to the
    9 commencement of the examination, the deponent
    10 was duly sworn by me to testify to the
    11 truth.
    12 I further certify that this
    13 deposition was taken in shorthand by me at
    14 the time and place herein set forth and was
    15 thereafter reduced to typewritten form, and
    16 that the foregoing constitutes a true and
    17 correct transcript.
    18 I further certify that I am not
    19 related to, employed by, nor of counsel for
    20 any of the parties or attorneys herein, nor
    21 otherwise interested in the result of the
    22 within action.
    23 My commission expires 4/21/03.
    24 _____________________________
    25 Kelly A. Mackereth


    2 The Deposition of Steven Thomas,
    3 taken in the matter, on the date, and at the
    4 time and place set out on the title page
    5 hereof.
    6 It was requested that the deposition
    7 be taken by the reporter and that same be
    8 reduced to typewritten form.
    9 It was agreed by and between counsel
    10 and the parties that the Deponent will read
    11 and sign the transcript of said deposition.
    12 .
    13 .
    14 .
    15 .
    16 .
    17 .
    18 .
    19 .
    20 .
    21 .
    22 .
    23 .
    24 .
    25 .


    2 STATE OF :
    4 Before me, this day, personally
    5 appeared, Steven Thomas, who, being duly
    6 sworn, states that the foregoing transcript
    7 of his/her Deposition, taken in the matter,
    8 on the date, and at the time and place set
    9 out on the title page hereof, constitutes a
    10 true and accurate transcript of said
    11 deposition.
    13 Steven Thomas
    14 .
    15 SUBSCRIBED and SWORN to before me this
    16 day of , 2001 in the
    17 jurisdiction aforesaid.
    19 My Commission Expires Notary Public
    20 .
    21 .
    22 .
    23 .
    24 .
    25 .


    2 .
    3 RE: Alexander Gallo & Associates
    4 File No. 1637
    5 Case Caption: Robert Christian Wolf vs.
    6 John Bennet Ramsey, et al
    7 Deponent: Steven Thomas
    8 Deposition Date: September 21, 2001
    9 .
    10 To the Reporter:
    11 I have read the entire transcript of my
    12 Deposition taken in the captioned matter or
    13 the same has been read to me. I request
    14 that the following changes be entered upon
    15 the record for the reasons indicated. I
    16 have signed my name to the Errata Sheet and
    17 the appropriate Certificate and authorize you
    18 to attach both to the original transcript.
    19 .
    20 Page No./Line No. Reason:
    21 _________________________________________________
    22 _________________________________________________
    23 _________________________________________________
    24 _________________________________________________
    25 _________________________________________________


    1 _________________________________________________
    2 _________________________________________________
    3 _________________________________________________
    4 _________________________________________________
    5 _________________________________________________
    6 _________________________________________________
    7 _________________________________________________
    8 _________________________________________________
    9 _________________________________________________
    10 _________________________________________________
    11 _________________________________________________
    12 _________________________________________________
    13 _________________________________________________
    14 _________________________________________________
    15 _________________________________________________
    16 _________________________________________________
    17 _________________________________________________
    18 _________________________________________________
    19 _________________________________________________
    20 _________________________________________________
    21 .
    22 SIGNATURE:_______________________DATE:___________
    23 Steven Thomas.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice