The Bent Spoon and the Neck Abrasion

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by sweetpea, Sep 4, 2006.

  1. Sideways Frog

    Sideways Frog Member

    Its an extremely well defined shape though, it's hard to imagine how a knot could give such a deep, clear, precise outline.

    Of course it would not have to come from that specific spoon - it could be any spoon - or even a knife or fork from the same service would have an identical handle.
     
  2. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    nope

    I didn't say anything about the knot causing the mark. I said maybe where the skin got pinched up it might have rolled. I can see that causing a triangular shaped mark. Others have said it might be caused by a knuckle.
     
  3. sue

    sue Member

    First of all, according to the autopsy, the mark on her neck was an abrasion.
    The definition of abrasion is (from this site http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/abrasion):
    a·bra·sion (-brzhn)
    n.
    1. A scraping away of a portion of a surface.
    2. The wearing down or rubbing away or removal of the superficial layers of skin or mucous membrane in a limited area.


    Something extremely smooth like a spoon, could cause a bruise (with a lot of force), but could not cause an abrasion because the spoon is too smooth.

    I did some looking at this picture with Photoshop. The first picture shows the picture with color removed and the edges/outlines of items in the picture shown.
    The second picture is the same, but with some colors poured in to make the spoon show up more. Yellow was poured into the bowl and red into the wall behind.
    If you follow the grey line up the path of the spoon, it appears to be straight. What looks like a bend in the color picture (just above the rim of the bowl) is the white bowl reflected into the spoon - you can tell because it was the exact same color as the bowl when I poured the yellow color into the bowl. In this picture, it doesn't appear bent, it appears like a 'bite' taken out of the spoon handle right there.

    You also have to remember that at the angle the picture was taken, you can see parts of 2 sides of the spoon handle. The top surface and the side of the spoon. That makes it look distorted and what you used as the middle of the spoon to draw the straight line from where it looked like the middle from the picture, but might not be the middle of the spoon (because of angle and also poor resolution).
     

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    Last edited: Sep 17, 2006
  4. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    Precisely, sue! This abrasion was caused by skin rubbing on skin. The only two options I can think of, thus far, which would cause this are someone's knuckles or something covered with animal skin the perp was wearing.


    -Tea
     
  5. sue

    sue Member

    An abrasion would be caused by something rubbing against the skin.
    Animal skin (fur) is fairly smooth and I don't think it would cause an abrasion. (Some people think the animal fur strands found were beaver hair and were from a pair of boots that Patsy was known to own, which disappeared after the death and were never turned in to the police).

    I think the abrasion could have been cause by knuckles or by cloth (some have hypothesized that JB was grabbed by the neck of her shirt).
     
  6. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    But animal skin is not fur. Fur is what covers the animal skin, much like hair covers human skin. There is a difference. The animal skin part to which I was referring would have had any fur removed from it.


    -Tea
     
  7. sue

    sue Member

    I understand the difference between animal skin and animal fur.
    But where did the idea of animal skin come from?
     
  8. heymom

    heymom Member

    Yes, like a carpet burn would cause, or better yet, an "Indian burn," if anyone has had one of those.

    Heymom
     
  9. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    The idea of animal skin, sue, came from the term "parchment-like" in the autopsy report. One definition of parchment is "the skin of sheep, goats, etc., prepared for writing on".


    -Tea
     
  10. sue

    sue Member

    Oh, I can see where you might get that. Parchement is very thin, often kind of a brown to light brown color and dry. I
    It says in the autopsy:
    In medical terms, the autopsy report is talking about the skin. It just means that the area of the abrasion was dry and the dry area was a thin sort of sheet. That doesn't say anything about what caused the abrasion except that it rubbed off a layer of skin.
    Here's a quote that might describe why the area had a parchement like appearance.
    The quote is from
    this website.
    You can find other web sites with similar descriptions. It looks from this like the abrasion might have occured after death.
     
  11. heymom

    heymom Member

    Thank you, Sue, that has been one of my questions. The "abrasions" always looked to me more like bruises but now that you describe them as occurring after death, it makes more sense that they wouldn't be colored just like abrasions normally would be.

    Heymom
     
  12. BluesStrat

    BluesStrat BANNED !!!!!

    Great catch Sue. If you look up details on post-mortem bruising you will find it only occurs at the point of impact because the pressure from the impact is what forces the blood out under the skin. Notice that the bruises left by the garrote cord are only UNDER the cord itself, making it look like the cord might have been put in place after death. Add that to the fact that the cord did no damage at all to the internal organs in her neck--no bruising of the strap muscles or tongue.
     
  13. sue

    sue Member

    I would not have thought of that if it wasn't for the other poster asking about animal skin. As a nurse, I have heard elderly (live) people described as having 'parchement like skin' (very thin, fragile and dry), so I just skimmed over it when I saw it in the autopsy and didn't think of what it meant in a deceased person.
    So, it would have been something that happened after death.
     
  14. Tril

    Tril Member

    I have never believed the neck device was part of the staging. Years ago on at Justice Watch, a poster from Boulder said that choking games were prevalent at schools there around the time that JonBenet died. Maybe they still are.

    Excerpt from http://www.ferndaleschools.org/SafetySecurity.htm

    The Choking Game - Serious, Dangerous, and most definitely, Not a Game Nov. 2005

    An incident of "The Choking Game" occurred recently in the Ferndale Schools, and we want parents, teachers, and students to be aware this game exists, and, most importantly, to have the information they need to talk to children about the real dangers of this risky behavior. Fortunately, no one was injured in the Ferndale incident, but the potential for serious injury or death exists every time choking occurs.

    The Choking Game" has been getting a lot of media attention lately, but it's been around for generations. Just last month, a teen in Boulder, Colorado died, and this week, the Boulder Valley, Colorado schools had an assembly to discuss the dangerous practice with students, and sent home a letter to parents.

    Children who play this dangerous game are usually between ages 10 and 16. Hundreds have died or have been seriously injured from choking each other until someone passes out to get a rush.

    Doctor answers Questions about Dangerous Game

    Dr. Thomas Andrew, a pediatrician and New Hampshire's chief medical examiner, is an expert on the dangers of this high-risk game. He advises parents to talk with their kids about the dangers of "choking games" and says parents should be on the lookout for these warning signs.

    § Linear abrasions (scrapes) or bruises on the neck

    § Petechiae (tiny, pinpoint bleeding spots) of the skin of the face, especially the eyelids, or of the conjunctiva (the lining of the eyelids and eyes)

    § High-necked shirts, even in warm weather

    § Intermittent hoarseness without other explanation such as a cold or allergies

    § The unexplained presence of dog leashes, choke collars, bungee cords, etc

    § If the child uses a computer, check the history of sites visited periodically

    ~~
     
  15. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    JB's hair was tied into the knots. No intruder is going to make his garrote on a living person.
     
  16. Tril

    Tril Member

    Good point, Punisher...if the hair that was caught in the knot pulled at the scalp level.
     
  17. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    That would have to be one trusting kid!
     
  18. Spade

    Spade Member

    Punisher

    The fibers from Patsy's jacket were also tied into the knots. No intruder is going to talk Patsy into helping him make a garrote. Maybe there was no intruder...Duh!
     
  19. Tril

    Tril Member

    Maybe Patsy's fibers got into the knots because she'd begun to try to remove the "garotte."
     
  20. Spade

    Spade Member

    Patsy's fibers

    John "found" the body and brought it upstairs. There is NO record of Patsy trying to remove the garrote. See Linda Arndt's deposition.
     
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