The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie - The Book

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Cranberry, Nov 24, 2006.

  1. Elle

    Elle Member

    Did they ever, heymom? Infuriating!
  2. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    Here are the lyrics to a song from the play adaptation of The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie. I think the line, “Lost like a flower that floats down the stream,†relates to the flower Narcissus. The flower is named after a youth in Greek mythology who loved looking at his own reflection in the water - so much that he fell into the water and drowned. According to legend the Narcissus plant sprang from where he died.

    The book and play illustrate Miss Brodie’s narcissisms; the need to control others and her concern with public image.

    The song is listed on the original motion picture soundtrack. I wonder if this could be the song a crying Patsy performed on piano at the end of a 1998 48 Hours show? It was described as a piece JonBenet learned to play.

    The song lyrics from the play found at

    “Somebody‘s Cryingâ€

    Somebody’s crying, do you wonder who?
    Tears that would fill up an ocean or two.
    He’s too unhappy to even feel blue,
    Somebody’s crying for you.

    Somebody’s crying, pay him no mind,
    He’s just a someone that you left behind.
    Although it could be and you‘ll never see,
    That somebody crying is me.

    Yesterday‘s lover, like yesterday‘s dream,
    Lost like a flower that floats down the stream.
    Only the sorrow (missing line)
    Somebody‘s crying for you.

    Somebody’s crying, do you wonder who?
    Tears that would fill up an ocean or two.
    You know how I feel for sadly, but true,
    That somebody crying is you.
  3. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    I wondered the same thing Cranberry. The part of the song shown on the 48 hrs piece seemed to be an accompaniment to the main melody.

    The song was used in the movie.

    I e-mailed 48hours several times trying to get a confirmation of the piano piece but got no response. I played the tape over and over, but the piece was so short I couldn't recognize it for sure.
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2008
  4. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    The lost love theme is also a big part of A Streetcar Named Desire.

    From McLean's book:

    " ... John had asked Patsy for a date."

    "Patsy had recently broken up with a longtime college boyfriend, ..."

    Brodie played up her lost love, ever the drama queen.

    If anything described Patsy it was 'drama queen'.
  5. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    The lost love theme is a big part of many works of literary fiction, among them some of the greatest in world literature.
    Absolutely. Just think of e. g. the 'Lazarus' performance which she pulled off after JonBenet's body had been brought upstairs.
    The ransom note has the drama queen Patsy written all over it too.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2008
  6. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    I mentioned the movie A Streetcar Named Desire because there is a scene where Blanche makes a desperate phone call for help to no one and later Stanley tells Blanche she forgot to hang up the phone.

    Cranberry, I'm dealing with two fellow employees who both have narcissistic personality disorders. One is also paranoid and the other shows fictitious disorder. I have given literature to my superiors about the situation. It is one thing to read about it and another to deal with it, especially when the narcissists are backed up in their power moves by a union. It is amazing to and extremely frustrating to watch them work their infantile ways.

    I lay the death of JonBenet at the feet of narcissism in the persons of Nedra Paugh and her daughter Patsy.

    Flowers for them both eh?
  7. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    I hope I never meet one. They must be very manipulative, controlling and selfish.
  8. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    I have met with quite a few narcissists in my life. It's best to steer clear of them, but this is often not possible when you have to deal with them in your job.
    But behind their overblown ego, there is almost always person who feels very little inner self-worth. To compensate for this, they feel it necessary to constantly present themselves as superman/superwoman/superachiever etc. to the outside world. They play a role, but their mask will usually drop sooner or later.
  9. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    As you requested, Paradox.

    [From another thread discussion about Patsy's heritage and cultural influences:]

  10. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    [Copied over from the 'Autopsy' thread]:

    Your memory is intact, for it that WAS Paradox who who thought this. :)

  11. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    This is what you do rash. You only see what you want to see.

    I have never said it was a religious sacrifice. I have gone to great pains to point out that Patsy did not follow a religion of any kind in killing her daughter.

    I have said she was psychotic and as psychotics often do she displayed behavior associated with mythic content.

    Patsy was not motivated by a need to commit a sacrifice. She was motivated by a need/desire to validate a private fantasy.
  12. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Patsy - a Psychotic?

    "Fear of judgment after death IS a religious feeling because it refers to a transcendent power. Whether this feeling is part of a psychotic fantasy (as you seem to believe was the case with Patsy) or whether it is rooted in religious dogma is irrelevant here imo.
    You have gone to great pains to point out that Incas sacrificed their little chidren to the gods, so again there was an attempt on your part to link the 'sacrifice' topic to Patsy.

    Of course Patsy would have to be called 'psychotic' if she decided to send JonBenet ahead of her as an angel. But what suggests to you that she was psychotic?
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2008
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, Paradox, you're being a bit disingenuous here, really splitting hairs.

    Of course anyone who believes in most religious tenent can necessarily be called "psychotic", when you think about it. All are based in belief in the intangible, the immeasureable, the unknowable. Humans have fought and still fight wars over their religious beliefs: 40 virgins in heaven are the reward for murdering innocent civilians in the minds of some religious fanatics, for example. The Crusades are another example.

    Yes, if Patsy premeditated this murder to "sacrifice" JonBenet because of what SHE BELIEVED as a practicing, devout Christian, then she was psychotic. But who among the Christians will call Moses psychotic? Or a warlock? Yet what he is said to have done in the Old Testament would have gotten him burned at the stake in Old Salem. Today, he'd be considered a master magician--Las Vegas style. Remind me of the name of the man who was ready to sacrifice his son, talked to a burning bush or something like that? (I know you told me this, heymom, not long ago, but I'm sorry, I can barely remember my name anymore.) Who wouldn't agree today to have that man locked up and his son taken away? Who among us doesn't decry parents who murder their children because "God spoke to them" during some psychotic episode? So what is the difference between the Biblical devout worshiper doing what he believed God was telling him to do and the modern psychotic parent? Jews and Christians set one up as an example of a man of God, the other is sent to prison for life and reviled.

    Then there's Jesus and the "miracles" he performed. To even type these words is blasphemy to some and will earn me eternal damnation, but really, what would we make of a man today who did what Jesus is said to have done? We do have people who claim to heal the sick, who do seemingly impossible feats before our very eyes. The Pope is supposed to be a Holy man; religious statues and bodies of saints are literally worshiped as sacred artifacts with special "powers" the world over. It's legitimate among the faithful to see "Jesus" in pizza and on toast and consider it a Holy relic.

    Yet who calls these beliefs psychotic? We call them religion and exalt those who go to such extremes as the most worthy of followers of God. Until they cross some invisible line and end up with a woman drowning her five precious children in a tub. THEN we call it psychosis.

    So...just parse words about whether your analysis is about Patsy's religious beliefs or her "psychosis based in mythology" as if we have made some out of left field connection between the two is rather picky of you.

    I don't know that Patsy would have believed she could "sacrifice" JonBenet in such a way and get away with it because she thought it was a sacrifice on level with that Biblical one. If she went that far off the scale of reality, why wouldn't she have simply admitted it? Psychosis is by its nature a lack of realistic thinking. Having gone that far, why deny it forever? Why not just admit it like Andrea Yates and continue with the psychotic idea that God was with you, accepted your "sacrifice" and therefore would "save" you?

    Yet if Patsy knew what she was doing was a crime and she'd be imprisoned for it, condemned as an unfit mother, a monster, so much so that she denied her deed and covered it up, then she wasn't psychotic, simply sociopathic. Doesn't "psychotic" necessarily mean a loss of touch with reality, the inability to discern what is right or wrong?

    It's a tough thing to prove, Paradox, like trying to hold water in your hands.
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I will say that one thing you have going for your theory, Paradox, is the awful claim Patsy made in a public speaking engagement the last year or so of her life, when she said JonBenet "had served her purpose" here. That was beyond creepy, and to make such a statement was a kind of "controlled psychosis", IMO. Patsy was rationalizing to help herself accept the murder as absolved, WITH JONBENET A HUMAN SACRIFICE TO BRING PEOPLE TO GOD, which is what Patsy claimed JonBenet's INFAMY, and therefore her MURDER, had done.

    That's the religious brand of acceptable "controlled psychosis", IMO: choosing which "supernatural" ideas you believe and which you don't, according to what is acceptable as defined by the doctrine and what you need as a human being to soothe your path through this life of trials and tribulations. Patsy was revealing how she viewed JonBenet's murder: a sacrifice to God to win him followers.
  15. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Had PR took responsibility for the accidental killing of her daughter, she may not have seen prison time (especially considering Boulder's attitudes on crime) but she would have certainly been seen as a monster of sorts, and shunned by all her friends and "admirers". I think for someone like her, being the mother of a murdered child was the only way out.
    I am sure that over the years she convinced herself that what happened HAD to happen so that her daughter would not be left behind here after PR died. It's almost like she thought "well, it's for the best".
  16. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    It was Abraham who was told by God to sacrifice his son Isaac. Isaac was his son with his wife Sarah. He was stopped by an angel just in time. Apparently, it was only Abraham's intent to obey that God desired. He did not need to actually go through with the act. Though not his firstborn, he was the favored son. His firstborn son was Ishmael, fathered with his Egyptian maid, Hagar. Both were later banished because of Sarah's jealousy. It is this event, as Abraham turned his back on Ishmael, that is thought by some to be at the root of the animosity between Israel and the Arab nations to this day.
    Moses saw the "burning bush".

    As far as Jesus on toast- you can order online a device called "Holy Toast" which will press an image of Jesus or the Blessed Virgin into a piece of toast. Comes with instructions on how to join eBay so you can auction it off.
    I gave these as Christmas presents...
  17. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    :floor: No you dit---n't!

    I want one! My hubby, who is a Christian and probably wonders everyday what he did to deserve ME, would be worth watching if I put toast on the table with Jesus on it.

    Thanks for the info. I could have looked it up, but then I'd have to forget it all over again. :bateye:

    Besides, I didn't know about the Ishmael/Hagar and Isaac/Sarah link to Arab/Israeli enmity. Sheesh, talk about holding a grudge....
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2008
  18. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I did. I'll try to post the link for you. I am very irreverent. Jesus doesn't mind.
  19. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    kk, Sacrifice of JonBenet posted on Topix the very thing that the sacrifice of JonBenet WAS NOT. You may have been remembering that post. It wasn't me.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2008
  20. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    Psychoses occur in depths, from shallow to deep and the duration can vary from momentary to extensive. A person can recover from a psychosis or can be affected by it for the rest of their lives. The visionary state was valued and sought after in many cultures and rituals were perfomed to induce them. Many old cultures were based on visionary experiences, Judeo-Christianity among them. Most of the time these experiences were considered to be communications with Gods. In our science based, materialism based culture these states are considered pathological. The non-pagan, post-pagan religions prohibited sacrifice and reduced the active personal communication with Gods to prayer. The result was a more stable minded laity, less susceptible to the negative aspects of the visionary experience and more easily governable.

    In a deep psychosis a person acts as if a God with the power of life and death and creation. Yet their acts are often quite destructive. A psychotic that comes out of the psychosis and is arrested by law abiding citizens to face the truth about their actions will most likely to some degree reject the rational perspective they are forced to view before them and remain delusional. Manson, Hinkley and Chapman are examples, as well a McVeigh.

    Patsy's method of repression was to create the group of individuals and then adhere to the inruder theory. She was then able to continue her fantasy that JonBenet was an angel in Heaven awating her mother's arrival.

    Had she been arrested and tried she would have had to face the rational explanation of what she did and suffer the judgement of her peers. She would have to face the fact that she was wrong about being God or being connected to a God. People can rarely cop to making that monumental assumption.
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