The Ramsey's own words

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by rashomon, May 22, 2006.

  1. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    That Patsy can't be reeinterviewed is certainly a hurdle for a reinvestigation, Ella.
    But the fiber evidence implicates her as the stager of the garrote scene, and when one compares her samples to the original, even a layperson can she she wrote that note.
    She did a surprisingly poor job at disguising her handwriting.

    The fiber evidence implicates John too. He should be grilled again, but not with wishy-washy questioning allowing him to slip away. Also Burke.
    I had the impression that the interviewers allowed the attack dog Lin Wood to bully them because they were afraid of him. Thus they made it very easy for Wood to throw them off balance.
  2. Elle

    Elle Member

    So many flaws we FFJayers have spotted. We would have made a better job of grilling the Ramseys, rashomon. Methinks you've missed your calling. You would have made a good criminal lawyer. Is it too late to give up your teaching job?
  3. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    If memory serves, Patsy said that the stairwell was dimly lit by sconces.
    I looked up the picture of the spiral staircase - there are no sconce lights on the wall near the bottom of the stairs where Patsy allegedly found (and read) the ransom note.
    Per her own story, she stepped over the pages, then turned around and read them. She did not say one word about having turned the ceiling light on first.
    It must have been very dark in that windowless part of the house (besides, it was pitch-dark outside at 5.30 too).
    With not even dim sconces nearby, how was Patsy able to read the note in such a dark room?
  4. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    A bit too late, yeah. :)
    But kidding aside, l love teaching too much to ever have considered any other job. So I'm quite happy that in 'real life' my detective skills are limited to finding out things like where little Sarah lost her mittens in the garden or where Davie hid Tommy's shoes. ;)

    Everything I know about the JBR case I learned from you great FFJ posters here, many of whom have an encyclopedic case knowledge which is simply awesome.

    As for asking probing questions, I have picked up a lot from D. England who has elaborated on the topic many times. I'm convinced that if Delmar had questioned the Ramseys, they would not have been able to avoid clear answers like they did in the LE interviews. He would have pushed them into a corner and kept them there.
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2009
  5. Elle

    Elle Member

    I have to agree with you, rashomon. Like you, I learned a lot from Delmar England. Delmar's contribution to the JonBenét case is valued by many.

    I'm sure your pupils enjoy you. Keep on sleuthing!
  6. Voyager

    Voyager Active Member

    Rashoman and Elle....

    I agree with both of you about Delmar England and his contributions to the case evidence, especially concerning the garrot and the knots. I really enjoyed reading his writing and concise technical discriptions.

    Wonder if Delmar still reads here and if he will post with us again as the case heats up once again. Perhaps the panel of experts being assembled to give the Ramsey case a fresh look will give a long look at the evidence assembled by both Delmar and Chero. Wouldn't that be productive taken together?!

    In the press conference for Garnett and Beckner, they both insisted that they were open to new evidence and new leads and would be exploring them...Why not have them look at the hard work put together by these two people here who have studied this case for many years especially within their own fields of knowledge using the evidence as it exists without predjudice or pressure?

    Here is hoping that Delmar and Cherokee will find the time, energy and will to present their work to this new panel.

  7. Elle

    Elle Member

    This would be wonderful, Voyager, If Delmar and Cherokee could get the chance to present their work as you have suggested above. Yes Delmar still reads here when he has the time. I enjoyed learning a great deal from Delmar. He really is a very nice down-to-earth person when you get to know him. He also has a great sense of humor. He certainly made many attempts to be heard.
  8. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Delmar was before my time here, but I'd have loved to "meet" him and welcome his contributions to the discussion.
  9. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    DE's poster name is EasyWriter and when you enter it in the search function here, you will see how much thought and reasoning he has put into this case, DeeDee.
    If I hadn't read his groundbreaking analysis of the garrote, I probably wouldn't even have noticed there was a tied knot on the vicim's neck, and that this doesn't fit together with a "handle".
    Before becoming acquainted with DE' work, I didn't even know what a slip knot is. :)
    DE tore the mask of pretense off the Ramsey's concocted story and was able to expose the wine cellar scene as staged merlely by studying the cord and knot evidence.

    More of DE's work can be found at the ACR site:

    He also wrote a letter to DA Keenan (now Lacy) in 2003, and imo this is one of the best pieces ever written on the case - a must-read:
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2009
  10. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Imo the Ramseys clearly tried to pin the crime on the housekeeper Linda Hoffman-Pugh first, and John's "inside job" comment was meant to direct LE's attention toward her. When reading the 1997 interview with John Ramsey, it sticks out a mile what their plan was: (bolding mine)
    Indeed, John and Patsy, there is no doubt that "on that morning" you had "focused on the cleaning lady".
    Since you obviously deemed dumping the body outside as too risky, you HAD to stage it as an inside job. There was NO other option left for you. So you racked your brains whom you could implicate, and LHP came in handy as a "suspect" to throw under the bus. She had a key, access to the pen and pad, knew her way around the house and could have seen John's pay stub lying around on his desk where his bonus was listed.
    And in your arrogance you probably thought that to demand a mere $ 118,000 was more than enough for a poor church mouse like LHP.
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2009
  11. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    From John Ramsey's 1997 interview: (bolding mine)

    Too bad neither ST nor T. Trujillo backed John into a corner by asking him how he managed to get his business suit pants off while keeping his shoes on. :D
  12. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    I've said in the past that the note was the key to the staging because it gives the stager wiggle room. You can say that the killer wrote it beforehand while they waited OR afterwards to really grind it in.

    But more than that, there seems to be an attempt to frame someone, and all the little hints were thrown in there so it could be either an employee or the housekeeper.

    Not a bad plan, if you ask me.
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    That story told by John is so full of lies, I can't believe they didn't drill him on that in 1998. It's not even POSSIBLE to get in that window the way John described. BS! Again, WHY is the father of a murdered child LYING TO LE?

    Thomas and Trujillo were on a tight time schedule, as they'd been given two hours with each parent, so they didn't have time to do follow-up, as the list of questions was long and time was short.
  14. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

    Yep. Either an employee or the housekeeper worked just fine for the Ramseys until The Whites spoke up and out, unfortunately opening the door for the non-stop Team Ram's discrediting smear campaign and spreading their wings to attack innocent bystanders.
  15. AMES

    AMES Member

    What really got to me about the White's John's 98 interview, he said that PW saved some cracked crab out for JB, because HE ASKED HER TO, and then a few lines down, he says that he thought that it was strange that she saved cracked crab out for JB, implying that she may have drugged the crab. (Patsy said the same thing in her 98 interview...about it being strange..and it was almost word for it had been rehearsed by both her and John).
  16. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

    Yeah. It got me too....:hopmad: By 1998, the Ramseys had definitely changed the path of their Target to Fleet and Priscilla's direction and it continues to this very day! My heart so hurts for what this decent family has been put through just by having the unfortunate association with John and Patsy and I so hope that the time that they were Blessed to have had with JonBenet does help them get through the treatment her parents have deemed them worthy of receiving.
  17. AMES

    AMES Member

    Great post, and ITA!! I feel so bad for them. With "friends" like the Ramseys...who needs enemies? Right?

    That was so dumb of the Ramsey's to try and throw the White's under the bus, in the first place. It was the WHITE'S party that they were at, and had just left. So, how in the world were they supposed to be in two places at their OWN party, and at the Ramsey's, waiting for them to get home? That makes no sense. Guess they hadn't thought that far ahead. They just threw anybody and anything under the bus, and against the see if any or everything would stick.
  18. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Of course, just as the Rs never realized that an autopsy would show pineapple in her digestive tract, they never realized that toxicology tests would be run which would show any drugs she may have been given. Her toxicology report was negative. NO drugs (including alcohol) present. I believe that they actually thought there would be NO autopsy at all. Here she was, garrote around her neck, clearly strangled (to look at her), no blood visible on the head, no open wound there either, so who look for anything else. Maybe they thought their "friends in high places" could "waive" the autopsy, too. I am surprised they didn't try. (or maybe they did).
  19. AMES

    AMES Member

    So am I, and you are right...maybe they did.

    I just thought that it was weird that he had asked Priscilla to save the cracked crab out for JB, and then suddenly has no idea why she would do such a thing, and thought it was strange. That would be like me asking my neighbor to water my plants while I was away on vacation, and then later saying..."You know, I don't know WHY my neighbor would have watered my plants, looking back on it now, it seems a little weird". DUHHHHH
  20. Greenleaf

    Greenleaf FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks, Rashomom

    Thank you, Rashomom for starting this thread. It has been most interesting; eliciting thought-provoking comments; leaving little doubt as to where the annals of crime history will place the RST: In permanent slots in the “Hall of shame.â€
    Years from now, their descendents will learn of their shameful conduct, and may opt to change the family names. So much was done, with little thought to the consequences down the road. Citizens, such as those on Forums For Justice, will emerge with their reputations intact, whereas those willing to give child abusers and murderers a pass, will eventually be judged for their chronic apathy. States, towns, and even little hamlets, where the citizens turn blind eyes to child abuse, need not apply for “good citizenship awards,†and should, in my humble opinion, not be considered for Federal grants and/or State or Federal subsidies. The egregious behaviour of the Boulder Justice System and the citizens of Boulder, in ref. to the JonBenet Ramsey case, should be punished where it hurts; by withholding monies that would normally be obtained through such sources. If there were relevant laws on the books, people like Lacy and Hunter would not last two weeks in office, and people like the Rams would have been incarcerated a long time ago. And, the citizens of Boulder would no longer hide their heads in the sand. Lawyers, like Woody and Judges like Carney, and Detectives like Smitty would not be tolerated for long. Grand Juries, like the Ram Grand Jury, would be exposed for what it was: a royal sham! The members of that jury were citizens, sucked in by the mind-set of the D.A., who was determined to protect the Rams, at all costs. He not only got his way, he made sure that the records of their deliberations would be sealed forever.
    If this current D.A. and Chief of police do what they say they will do, all hell is about to break loose. Good journalists’ should make it a point to watch the comings and goings of all the unscrupulous characters involved. I wonder who among them has recently applied for or renewed their passports. I wonder who has withdrawn their assets from the U.S. and secreted them in other countries. Have such folks as Pam, Susan and Smitty recently secured the services of lawyers? Has anyone noticed any of them getting together somewhere, in anticipation of being supeoined?
    I am going to try and keep my eye on the ball and try not to raise my expectations too high.

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