The Skull Fracture and the Reverend

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Learnin, Jan 23, 2011.

  1. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I was looking over the photos that koldkase put together here and I was studying a picture of JBR's bathroom. I noticed that the toilet sticks out a bit and I began to wonder about the toilet bowl rim having caused the skull fracture since ST's theory was that there might have been a bedwetting incident which led to the head injury.
    I took an apple and struck it against my toilet bowl rim and all three strikes left an imprint which measured one half inch in depth which, I've read, was the depth of the skull indentation. On my third strike, I produced an indentation in the apple which is the exact dimension of the skull depression. What is more, the indentation is curved just as we see in the autopsy photo of the skull.
    I'm not putting this forth as the ultimate truth of what happened but, as far as I'm concerned, I've more than proven to myself that the blow could have happened in a bathroom.
    In the "blood on the pillowcase" thread, we've been having a good discussion concerning the bedroom, etc. I've just been trying to piece together a scenario which would fit the headblow happening upstairs and the garroting down in the basement. It seems the girl was carried down the staircase as she had the garland in her hair.
    Secondly, I read last night in ST's book where he relates a conversation with the Reverend Dr. Frank Harrington:

    "Trujillo and I went over to the Peachtree Presbyterian Church to talk with the Rev. Dr. Frank Harrington the next morning. He knew the family well, had married John and Patsy, buried Beth, baptized JonBenet, and had just buried her, too. If anyone could provide us with some insight, it should be the Reverend Harrington.

    The minister met us with a frosty demeanor and a curt, "I'm not sure I want to talk to you. I will tell you I will share no privileged information."

    That set me thinking about the rules of privilege, in which information can legally be kept in confidence, such as between doctor and patient or lawyer and client. Also privileged would be a confession by a parishioner to a clergyman. "Is there privileged information?" I asked.

    "I won't answer that," Harrington said. "Do I need an attorney?"

    And then Thomas relates that they had to wait about 20 minutes for an attorney to be present. Now, obviously that Reverend had some kind of information. When Thomas asked if he had privileged information, the good Reverend wouldn't lie. He said, "I won't answer that." It seems that all the main players, in Atlanta (the good reverend and John's ex were lawyered up and resisting questions).
  2. Elle

    Elle Member

    Excellent post, Learnin. This is the most practical believable theory for me. This was one very good experiment, with the third strike producing the same indentation on JonBenét's skull.

    Reverend Harrington, like all the others, kept his mouth shut.
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I love those of you who are so clever with your experiments. Very interesting.

    If there had been a trial in this case, I daresay we would have heard some important expert testimony, including that of Dr. Meyers, regarding that head injury.

    Thomas obviously had the advantage of hearing from those experts, though he didn't disclose much of that except in his vague description of his own theory of what happened. I respect Thomas's skills in this case tremendously.

    Who can imagine a preacher saying that to LE investigating the murder of a child? I cannot. I will never understand how such supposed good citizens abandoned JonBenet so quickly. Asking for a lawyer to even talk to LE? Pure evil.

    And IMO, the Ramseys and all those who helped them by closing ranks on the investigation into the molestation and murder of a child define the reality of evil. Shame on them all.
  4. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Just wanted to clarify something. In my apple/toilet bowl rim experiment, I stated the depth was one half inch. The more correct term would have been heighth. I think the heighth was one half inch and width was 1 and 1 half inch or something very close.
  5. Shadow

    Shadow FFJ Senior Content Moderator

    Very interesting, learnin. I have been posting, off and on, at the JW Forum and FFJ since shortly after JW was created. During the early years, I had "inside" info because my S-I-L's father worked in the FBI Labs at headquarters in DC. Having done lab work for field agents all over the place, including Denver, he kept me informed on what the FBI thought about the JBR case. Bottom line:

    1- FBI Agents thought the actions of the Ramseys "strange" for parents whose daughter was killed;

    2- questioned why John Ramsey called 911 instead of LM security or FBI (he was an executive of a company that supported the Dept of Defense and initial evidence was his daughter had been "kidnapped" by terrorist -- ample reason for the FBI to lead the investigation until proven not a terrorist action against a defense contractor executive);

    3- had a lot of confidence in Steve Thomas (I think he was offered a job at one time), and felt he was "headed-in-the-right-direction";

    4- felt the DA's office was impeding the investigation (e.g., offered to give the Ramsey's lawyers all evidence in return for just talking to LE -- FBI talked DA out of this "crazy" idea -- I believe they later gave lawyers Ramsey statements but not "evidence" to agree to interviews);

    5- not only felt the Ramseys should have been called to testify under oath in front of the GJ but told the DA's office so, and was ignored;

    6- most of their suggestions were ignored; and

    7- privately felt that an obstruction of justice investigation should have been launched by the Colorado AG's Office.

    In all my posting from day one until today, I have never accused a Ramsey of killing JBR -- mainly because I believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and because never once did my FBI sources say they believed a Ramsey killed JBR. I will admit that I have always felt it a huge possibility that JBR was killed accidently, not by terrorist. Learnin's theory follows this logic.

    While I still read these threads, I haven't posted on the case in a long time because I've felt that we are ploughing the same rows. Learnin got my interest. And the discussion of "the good Rev's" actions reminded me of the FBI's comments about the lack of cooperation of those one would think would be doing anything to catch the killer. Interesting stuff...
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2011
  6. Karen

    Karen Member

    Hi Learnin! I seem to have missed your apple/toilet bowl rim experiment and I'm very interested in reading about it. Can you give me a link? Thanks!
  7. Elle

    Elle Member

    Shadow wrote:

    I think JonBenét Ramsey was killed accidentally too, Shadow, but I have no problem with saying I think it was Patsy Ramsey, her mother who was responsible for this accidental death. No one else was in the house. No one broke into this house through that ridiculous basement window with all that has been posted about it. Steve Thomas thinks this too!

    It is nice to see you back posting again. I'm thinking, it must have been an exciting job you had coming in contact with these FBI chaps.
  8. Shadow

    Shadow FFJ Senior Content Moderator

    Thanks Elle. After the pain I went thru for almost a year, I feel so good right now I almost can't believe it. I posted hardly at all at FFJ for months, but I felt so bad I went no where and even hardly watched TV (didn't even watch my team Duke win titles in basketball and lacrose) -- spent lots of time in bed.

    Yeah, I have to admit I really enjoyed my almost 40 year career as a government contractor. Worked with NASA, EPA, GSA, NSA, CIA, FBI, DEA, DoD, and all branches of the military. I knew lots of stuff most people in this country didn't know (and still don't), but I couldn't even discuss it with my wife. As far as the JBR case is concerned, while I had a couple of "sources" at Quantico, most of my case info came from my S-I-L's dad (now deceased) who got his info from field agents.

    Getting "inside" info while it was happening was cool... I remember my buddy Bad BobC and I had kind of a credibility contest one time. BobC had "inside" info from a friend at a Boulder law firm that the GJ was going to indict Patsy. My FBI sources were saying "no indictment unless the Ramseys testify under oath before the GJ. Then long shot." Of course, we know how that worked out. :yuck:

    Anyway, glad to be able to talk to you!!
  9. Elle

    Elle Member

    Pain of any kind on a regular basis is hard to take, Shadow, and for almost a year is just too long. I remember one of your posts stating just how much pain you were in. Sincerely hope you can enjoy your life much better now.

    I haven't seen Bob Cooksie posting for quite some time now. I always enjoyed his posts too. I was jealous of you and your FBI friends and wished I had a few. :) Yes, the Grand Jury was a disappointment.

    Hopefully some of your old friends will see your post and respond Shadow. Meanwhile, as you stated, Learnin came up with this latest apple experiment. I found this very interesting too!.

    A deeper investigation needs to come from the Boulder Police. Fingers crossed.
  10. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member


    Me too! I'm happy for you that you are now pain free after so much pain. Being no stranger to pain I rejoice with you.

    Yes, this latest experiment with the apple is interesting. I agree with Elle in that I think Patsy is good for it even though I also believe it was an accident. I think she/they panicked after a head blow that was purely accidental. So instead of calling 911 for medical help they rushed around with what we are left with to ponder. So far it has worked for them even though it has wrecked their life.

    I hope the latest BPD shuffle into the evidence with "new" eyes will get all of us an indictment. We still can dream can't we?
  11. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    thanks, Elle
  12. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Thanks for filling me in on those FBI points. I always tend to look at behavior as much as anything to tip me off as to what is going on. I know behavior won't get a conviction but it's very revealing, no?

    Like you, I don't know exactly who did it or what precipitated the event but I'm certain of one thing. John or Patsy, or both, knew what happened.
  13. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Hi, Karen. My short experiment was presented on the first post of this thread. The thing about the toilet rim is that it is most curved in the front portion. This means that, if a skull struck it, it would only come in contact with a few inches since it is curved so much at the front of the stool.
  14. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Hey, Shadow. Your Duke team beat my Kansas State team earlier this year. I was in attendance at the Sprint Center in Kansas City. Too bad Irving got hurt, he was one heck of a player.

    Your resume is impressive....must have really been an interesting job....
  15. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I'd be interested in hearing what any of you think the significance is of John lawyering up his ex in Atlanta, and their kids, while Patsy's in laws were not.

    It seems to me that this must indicate something.
  16. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member


    Wow! Now there is a great question. I think I've had that one niggling around in my brain for a second or two but way back when.

    The only thing that comes to my mind is that the first Mrs. Ramsey is the mother of JAR. And just perhaps she may know of his absolute whereabouts on the day in question or know about any abuse he may have inflicted on JBR. Also there may have been something between John and her that he didn't want out in public. Did their daughter who died from the auto accident die while he was still married to her or when he was married to Patsy? Perhaps that is the connection. Just random thoughts here.

    There are many strange things in this case and I always thought that to be one of the strange things. (EX....flashlight with no prints inside or out, calling the neighborhood over to visit at the crime scene that morning to name just a few.)
  17. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I think he did that because he knew his ex would be asked by LE to provide proof that JAR was actually with her Christmas Day, i.e. a photograph. The fuzzy ATM photo was from the previous day, and JAR's face is not visible. The lawyer for JAR was for the same reason. He knew LE would focus on him as well. As soon as you lawyer up, LE can no longer talk to you. They have to go through your lawyer, and as we saw with Patsy, your lawyer won't allow you to answer any questions that may implicate you in the crime.
    I am sure JR's ex could prove SHE was in Atlanta, but by having her own lawyer, it ensured that she would not have to provide any photos.
    Likewise, I am sure Nedra could prove she was in Atlanta. Are we sure that Grandpa P did not have a lawyer? There has been some discussion about whether he was actually in Boulder Christmas Day.
  18. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I've kicked this around for some time. I, like you, wonder if it might have a connection with JAR. For some reason, I just can't let him go. There was his semen on that blanket in the suitcase. The summer after the death, I believe, the police spotted JAR, intoxicated, in the area of the campus hill riots. When they told him he'd better go home, he said something like: "Yea, I've got enough problems already." Or something like that.

    Whatever, I believe it's significant that he lawyered up his ex and not his inlaws....
  19. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Good points. But that's just it, isn't it. We know that Grandma Paugh spoke freely with the police while John's ex, and JAR and the Atlanta Reverend were all hiding behind lawyers. This makes me wonder. If Patsy did it, why wasn't Grandma Paugh lawyered up also???? Had JAR told John's ex things about Patsy? Just thinking out loud.
  20. Elle

    Elle Member

    Here's a recap of John Ramsey'"lawyering up" thanks to "Little!"

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