Three critical questions

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Aug 14, 2012.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Last night while reading and posting at WS I either had an epiphany or another brain fart.

    It occurs to me that there are three things we need to know to decide if Patsy and/or John put that ligature on JB's neck and pulled it.

    If one or both did, then it's murder one and no statute of limitations.

    If John was involved, then it's still a prosecutable case. It would be time to let a jury decide.


    In his book, Kolar lays out the "organized" vs "disorganized" elements of this crime scene. It got me to thinking about that. I believe it's very likely the head blow was from a disorganized, blitz attack, and the strangulation, staging, and ransom note were organized.

    So I'm looking at this from that perspective: who did what, and when.

    WHEN is critical. I"m not speaking of the actual TOD, but from the perspective of 90 minutes of sheer hell, after which the head blow was trumped by strangulation.

    JonBenet's death started that night with the head blow: according to Kolar medical examiner Meyer determined, consulting with a number of other experts brought in, that the head injury came first. Then it was approx. 90 minutes until the ligature was tightened to strangle the child to death.

    That death, according to Kolar and other sources we've seen, took place by the paint tray, outside the cellar door.

    Working from that premise, I have three critical questions. If we had the answers, I think we'd know the truth about who strangled--and therefore killed--JonBenet Ramsey.


    So the first question is this: What happened in that 90 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation?

    The second question is this: How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray/carpet area by the wine cellar?

    Finally, the answer to question three might tell the tale: Where did the head blow actually occur in the home?

    I'd like to see what you think of these questions, what you speculate and theorize for the answers, and see where that takes us.
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    For background of the medical examiner's determination of timing between the head injury and strangulation:

    From Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?; by A. James Kolar

    Page 15:

    Page 60:

    Page 64-5:

    To reiterate the 3 critical questions, in a more chronological order:

    Where did this head blow occur that night in the home?

    What happened in the 90 minutes between that blow and the strangulation?

    How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray where she was strangled and expired?
  3. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Where did this head blow occur that night in the home?

    I think it depends on what caused the head wound. If it was a golf club, the head wound probably occurred on the first floor or the basement. If a toilet rim, faucet, etc., upstairs. Flashlight? Probably first floor or basement.
    I'm going to concentrate on what caused the head injury. As someone stated, the depression looks oval shaped. I used to think it was rectangular.

    What happened in the 90 minutes between that blow and the strangulation?

    Depends on who struck, or caused, the blow. If PR caused head wound, then, there would have been a period of time trying to revive JBR....grieving...planning and then executing the plan. If BR caused head wound, and no one witnessed it, then, JBR could have laid unconscious for a period of time before being discovered...maybe when PR went to look for her in order to put her to bed.

    How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray where she was strangled and expired?

    If PR caused the head wound, she was carried there. If BR, then, the blow might've happened close to where she was strangled. I have always thought it would be nice to know what kind of lint
    and dust was on JBR's feet. Was it concrete residue? Lint like from a washer and dryer room? Once she was hit on the head, there was no more standing. ST mentions this lint and dust, seen at the autopsy, so it must've been important to him and LE. I can't help but think they analyzed this and found out the probable room where JBR last stood. This is my opinion but he mentioned it for a reason.
    Kolar doesn't mention it. I believe someone ought to ask him about it sometime. Methinks that this is one tidbit not being let out.

    This probably doesn't help a bit but I'm going to keep working on a golf club injury theory and if I can reproduce an exact replica, then, it might help to give better answers to those 3 good questions.

    Does anyone know if any golf clubs were photographed or documented by LE to be upstairs any where? Or were they all located downstairs?
  4. Elle

    Elle Member


    Where did this head blow occur that night in the home?

    I think the head blow happened upstairs in the bathroom with JonBenét being thrown around in a rage by Patsy Ramsey.

    What happened in the 90 minutes between that blow and the strangulation?

    The Ramseys staged the crime to look like an intruder had entered their home and sexually abused JonBenét, to cover up the previous sexual abuse.

    (3). How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray where she was strangled and expired?

    The Ramseys had to make it look like the intruder didn't want to waken up JoBenét's parents by taking JonBenét into a more secluded spot in the house.
  5. Tez

    Tez Member


    I quickly read my book, now I need to go back and read it again slowly. But, I just don't know which parent choked the life out of her. Kolar, if I am not mistaken, seems to think that JR got in on the cover-up later on than Patsy. How much later, who knows? My feeling is that JR was the one who choked the life out of JB, so therefore, we have a case that can be prosecuted.

    Since reading the book, a lot of things have fallen into place for me. Like why the R's lawyered up so soon. Even though I think the fix was in before the 9-11 call was even made. All of this to protect Burke.

    Since image was everything to Patsy, she couldn't have her son be accused of murdering his sister. Can't you just imagine what the neighbors would say? OMG!
  6. wombat

    wombat Member

    Not just image. Much of what Patsy did in her life was prompted by her cancer. After having been diagnosed with Stage 3C or IV ovarian cancer, she knew her chance of being alive in 5 years was less than 20%. Patsy lived a long time for someone with this disease. I have always believed that, whichever one of them killed JB, Patsy said, "Listen carefully! I am not going to spend the rest of my short life in jail, or with Burke in jail, so let's get this under control." Jail would have precluded visits to the National Cancer Institute upon recurrence.

    Kolar's book really changed the way I think about the timeframe for the murder and cover up. I never knew before that poor JB took 90 minutes to die, and I was never sure that her previous abuse had been actual penetration (and torture). I also have never been a BDI but it's creeping up on me.

    On KoldKase's questions:

    Where did this head blow occur that night in the home?

    Upstairs, in either her bedroom or Burke's bedroom. She had Christmas garland in her hair from the railing on the circular stair, that I think got there when John or Patsy carried her down the stairs.

    What happened in the 90 minutes between that blow and the strangulation?

    See above - Patsy said "I ain't going to prison, fix this." After the Kolar book, I now think there might have been a worst-nightmare moment where they realized the head blow did not actually kill her yet, and they had to finish her off to complete a staging effort that was already well under way.

    How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray where she was strangled and expired?

    I know Kolar says she died in the basement, also a new idea to me that I'm digesting. I think this can mean that they already had the kidnapping story set up, and had brough her downstairs to hide, when they realized she hadn't yet died and then strangled her.

    James Kolar did a great thing with this book. I wish he could have shared the grand jury info he knows. He redacted it from his letter to Mary Lacey. It's tantalizing.
  7. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    The entire coverup was because of their "image" I believe. Like OMG what will the neighbors think? And John's business partners etc.


    I'm not really sure but...I wonder if it occurred downstairs in or near the train room. Patsy was already downstairs wrapping presents and JonBenet came down see what she was doing or to play with Burke who was down there also. Patsy became aggravated because the children weren't in bed as they should have been. A temper tantrum followed by both Mom and Child and the blow was struck by the flashlight. The flashlight was used to get downstairs because the rest of the house was dark.


    I can imagine utter horror and panic happened for most of that time thinking that JonBenet was already dead and what to do when she took her dying breaths which panicked them even further when they now realized that she wasn't dead. This is when John came into the picture for the rest of the coverup but only after he made a zillion phone calls for help.


    She was probably near that area anyway where she fell from the blow to her head. After getting some phone help John completed the awful deed and then "hid" her in that seldom used room. She hadn't been moved very much after the head blow.

    Well that doesn't fit all the things that we now know. After reading Kolar's book I do think that Burke is somehow involved in this most awful crime. By saying that it does make a lot of sense why the parents needed to cover up JonBenet's murder. But I can't figure out how to put him into KoldKase's questions easily.
  8. heymom

    heymom Member

    What happened in the 90 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation? Probably phone calls were made.

    How did JonBenet end up by the paint tray? Not sure. Except for the garland in her hair (which might have been in there for days, we have no idea), it's likely that she was already in the basement when the blow struck.

    Where did the head blow actually occur in the home?: I am leaning toward it happening in the basement, maybe in the "train room," maybe pretty close to where she died.

    I think if we could answer these questions definitively, we'd understand what really happened.
  9. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Do we know how much garland was in her hair? Is there a picture of it?
  10. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thank you all so much for your responses. See, this helps me think, I can't tell you how much. Each of you has given me ideas, and thinking about what you're pondering, little pieces of this puzzle start moving around and some fall into place, as well.

    What prompted me to start this thread is I had an epiphany of sorts...or another stupid idea, who knows? :fingers:

    I'm looking at the three questions to answer one final, and critical one:

    Could Burke have placed JB by the paint tray, where she was strangled, and where she died?

    My epiphany is this: there is only one way Burke could have strangled JB by the paint tray, and that's if he felled her right there, in that spot.

    I say that because I don't believe Burke could have carried JB. At 45 lbs. at autopsy, Burke would have had some trouble even moving her from, say, the train room to the paint tray.

    There were no bruises or scrapes on her body, as far as I've ever seen or as described in the autopsy, which indicated she'd been dragged. So I'm thinking that Burke, at his own height and weight, wouldn't have been able to pick her up and carry her.

    I know this isn't anything hard to figure out, but stay with me.

    I'll respond to your posts and ideas separately, but in hopes of keeping this idea from getting too complex off the bat, here's the gist of my thoughts:

    The only way I can figure out Burke delivering the head blow and also strangling his sister by the paint tray is if he felled her there. Then she would have been in position for what happened at the paint tray, so he didn't need to carry her.

    This might fit the evidence. I'm thinking this through.

    One problem I have with this is the 90 minutes between the head blow and the strangulation.

    Would Burke, not yet 10 years old, wait around the house/basement for 90 minutes while his sister was dying, and decide then to strangle her?

    Does that make sense?

    So I'm asking Question 1: where did the head blow occur? If it occurred in the basement, outside the cellar room, then Burke could have also been the person to strangle her, as far as physical capability.

    But if it happened somewhere else, like in/near her bedroom, where her blood was found on her pillow, where there is a lot of chaos, open drawers, diapers hanging out of a cabinet, a kitchen knife on a laundry machine, then I think we can all agree Burke did not carry JB down two flights of stairs and strangle her 90 minutes later.

    That would put Patsy and/or John in the act of strangulation, as the only other two people in the home and with their fibers on the body and murder weapon.

    If the head blow happened in the kitchen or another area, same thing. Burke could not carry his sister, I don't believe. So back to Patsy and/or John being the actual killers.

    So question 2: what happened in that 90 minutes? I'm trying to picture Burke hanging out, maybe panicking, maybe not, somewhere in the house, his sister dying by the paint tray where he struck her, then an hour and a half later deciding to go strangle her with a ligature.

    It was very late for children. They'd been up since before dawn, as well, excitedly opening their presents, playing with their Santa toys, running around with friends in the hood and such, visiting at the Whites, more children, more toys...then they came home and, according to Patsy and John Burke wasn't put to bed until 10 pm.

    But the pineapple is that big bugaboo, isn't it? It puts the lie to JB being asleep as she was put to bed, Patsy changing out her jeans for longjohns, etc.

    So there's only two ways this could have happened, if there is any truth to what John and Patsy said:

    1. JB woke up and Burke got back up, after the parents went to bed.

    OR Patsy and John lied and...

    2. JB was awake or woke up when they got back home and whatever happened, it went down before anyone went to bed.

    If either of the above scenarios happened, and if Burke were the one who struck that blow, unless it happened in the basement, by the paint tray, and Burke roamed around or did whatever until 90 minutes later, when he strangled JB to death there, there is only one other conclusion I can reach:

    John and/or Patsy carried JB to the paint tray and strangled her there.

    So this leads to Question 3: How did JB get to the paint tray?

    This is important because as I'm looking at this, with the timing between the head blow and strangulation established by Dr. Meyer as 90 minutes, and because I am speculating that a child the size of Burke could not carry the dead weight of a limp, 45 lb. body and there were no drag marks on the body, we might reasonably conclude the head blow occurred by the paint tray if Burke was responsible for that and then he would have been in a position to complete the act of strangulation...or...

    Patsy and/or John are culpable for the strangulation. Any other scenario except Burke committing the head blow and strangulation by the paint tray implicates John and/or Patsy, whose fibers are all over the body and crime scene, with Patsy's actually tied INTO the ligature, as well.

    I'm struggling with how to express my thoughts on this, so I hope this makes sense. If it does, we're down to one scenario where Burke could have committed both violent attacks on his sister. If it doesn't, then look into this smilie :hypno: and repeat 100 times: I never read it...I never read it....

    Thoughts? I hope? :winkaway:
  11. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I see you're thinking much like I am. I'm also thinking about the opened Christmas presents in the cellar room, with Burke's Lego birthday present. Kolar included that photo, which we hadn't seen before. But Patsy was asked about it and said she opened those packages herself, having forgotten what was in them as they were wrapped and sent by Schwarz to the home. Was she lying about opening them to cover for Burke? Kolar asks that question, as well.

    I am not aware of any golf clubs being upstairs. That doesn't mean they weren't.

    Looking at the idea that the head blow occurred near the paint tray, there certainly were golf clubs in the crime scene photos there. Also, there were golf clubs in the closet in the train room. I'm thinking there was a third set we've seen, in another basement storage room, the one behind the laundry room?

    I once read an article about a forensic scientist who has a lab where the dust from the JB crime was sent to him to anaylze. There was no information on what he found, though. But LE clearly had this tested.

    I look forward to seeing your experiment results with golf clubs. We can only hope LE did experiments and came to some important conclusions, as well. Unfortunately, we have never seen any of those mentioned.
  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    The unfortunate thing about our theories, Elle, is that we've not found a way to determine exactly how or where the head blow was delivered.

    I want to know if the blood on the pillowcase on JB's bed was in fact tested and matched to JB's DNA. Also, did it come from her nose--Patsy was asked by LE if JB had nosebleeds when Haney told Patsy there was blood on the pillowcase. Patsy also mentioned, in that exchange, that there didn't appear to be any blood on the curtains--a very strange observation in that context, IMO.
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Interesting observations, Tez.

    This is at the heart of what I'm trying to figure out: if the adult Ramseys devised the ligature, or if Burke did. Because yes, with JR still alive, it would be prosecutable if he participated at any point in the events of that night, even if he weren't the one who put the ligature on JB and pulled it, but did help cover up that Patsy did that.

    But I have always felt the ligature was something a male would come up with. I could be wrong, of course. It is Patsy's fibers tied into the knots, after all.

    What wombat posted next is interesting on this subject of Patsy's motivation, as well.
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Your thoughts about Patsy's point of view, regarding her life expectancy, are very interesting. You remind me of what Patsy said to her friend who was caring for her that week, with Patsy drugged out of her mind: "We didn't mean for this to happen."

    I think you're on to something here, as to Patsy's motivation.

    I agree, Kolar's book has opened up so much in terms of evidence and dynamics in the home.

    Yes, the grand jury: I have no doubt now that there are people who know with some clarity what happened in the home that night and who killed JonBenet.
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Very interesting. See, we're all focusing on the basement now. And like you, I'm still not convinced John wouldn't have been the one to come up with and execute the ligature strangulation. But I'm still on the fence with that, as my post explaining my questions indicates. I hope that post helps with ideas about how Burke could have been involved in a couple of possible scenarios.
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, I think these are key questions.

    If John and Patsy were making phone calls in that 90 minutes, then she was still alive and the head blow had already state the obvious.

    But that's important because that puts them with the ligature in their hands, doesn't it? Unless we can imagine they'd knowingly let Burke finish her off for some reason, and even I don't think they were that far gone.

    So once again, those phone records would be of PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE.

    Because that would make John and Patsy into killers, not just stagers.

    And John would still be open for prosecution.

    As if...because it's Boulder. But we can imagine justice is still possible, if highly improbably.
  17. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I looked in the autopsy and crime scene photos we have in the case library, particularly under the Christmas tree, and I don't see any garland.

    But the garland could have gotten into her hair in the basement, even by the paint tray or in the cellar room, as others have mentioned. Also she was laid by the Christmas tree, with lots of Christmas decor and I'd think some kind of garland on it, as well. Then there's transfer--how many people went into the basement on Christmas Day and the next morning and afternoon, even when the body was found?

    So I'm not sure that garland is going to tell us decisively one way or another what happened?
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Again, thanks so much for your ideas. Any feedback you have on mine, I so appreciate. Always in this case, theories have weaknesses and that's how we learn, so I look forward to your thoughts.
  19. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Since reading Kolar's book, and since getting a different perspective on that head wound, I've been wondering if BR could have struck the blow and tied the ligature right there in front of that wine cellar door. His DNA, evidently, wasn't on the ligature so that's a negative against this scenario. In this scenario, the blow could have been struck and he thought she would eventually awaken. He might have returned upstairs and when she never came up, he went back down and found her gurling or twitching and couldn't stand it so he tied the ligature...just thinking out loud.

    The real negative for me, in this scenario, is that I don't see BR implicating himself further. A head blow, with no bleeding, could almost be explained but, once the ligature is tightened, the plot thickens. But, he could have tied the ligature and went up to bed hoping the parents would blame it on an intruder.
  20. heymom

    heymom Member

    Drag marks

    Remember, JonBenet was fully clothed, in a long-sleeved shirt and long johns, so if she was dragged, there would be no abrasions or carpet burns.

    Also, those marks that look like the end of the train track...How and when did those happen to her? If the end of a train track had been poked into her, she would have cried out, wouldn't she? Unless she were already unconscious, and the person who poked her was trying to find out if she would wake up....
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