Three critical questions

My gosh, those things must've been made up of concrete.. I could cut up almost anything and flush it down the toilet...a sweater....a coat....anything that can be cut up can be flushed...it might take a while but you can do it.

 

Relating to Linda Hoffman Pugh and the bedsheets, I remember her stating many times when she arrived in the morning, Patsy Ramsey had JonBenét's bedsheets in the dryer, so it seems Patsy did share this job of changing sheets.

 

Oh Learning. I can't stop laughing as I'm typing; This is the best laugh I have had all day. I take it you are actually pleading guilty of having tackled the above action. Methinks you must have one giant toilet bowl, ha ha ha ha ha!
I'm glad you don't live in my house!

 

At the risk of being misunderstood (only 10% of communication is actual words, the rest is inflection, intonation and body language), who has put LHP on a pedestal?

I've known other posters who sympthized with LHP for what the Ramseys did to her, but I don't believe I've ever seen any who put her on a pedestal.

I think most posters would agree that Patsy had a reason to lie about when certain sheets were placed on JonBenet's bed. LHP had no reason to lie about it, therefore, she is more believed than Patsy. Of course, it's possible LHP was mistaken, but then, it's just as possible that Patsy was mistaken. It's even more probable that Patsy lied, just as she did about a lot of things.

 

Ha ha, Learnin, very nearly!

The material the pull-ups were made of was so absorbent, most kids, including mine, hardly knew they were wet! The composite layers wicked away the moisture from the body. Because they were super absorbent, any liquid like water in a toilet bowl would be drawn toward them and increase their weight and expansion in the plumbing.

I'm serious when I say those pull-ups almost worked TOO well! The parent of one child I knew (who was potty-training) had to take the pull-ups off their kid at home for a time because the child couldn't tell when they wet themselves and when they were dry! It was only when urine started running down their leg that they realized what was happening. The pull-up kept them so dry, they didn't feel the sensation of urinating when they were busy playing and running around.

The plumbing in the Ramsey home was taken apart to look for anything flushed down the drain. Even IF there is some way a person could cut up a pull-up in small enough pieces to get it flushed down a toilet, I'm sure any remnants would have been found in that search.

 

Yes! That's the clarity I was seeking! You're right, she had no reason to lie and Patsy did. I wasn't thinking about that. Thank you!:hug:

 

Yes! That's it! This gives me some clarity. I hadn't thought about that before. LHP had no reason to lie but Patsy did. Thank you!

 

You're welcome!

 

Exactly

I don't put LHP on a pedestal but I'm going to trust her basic remembrance of what happened more than Patsy's lying words. Like Cherokee stated, I also do feel a certain sense of sympathy for her in that the Ramseys basically turned her life upside down and tried to destroy her to save their own sorry butts.

Karen, thank you for your response. I understand what you're saying. For me, the basic issue gets down to what we decide to take as fact and what we won't. Yes, Pugh could be mistaken about the sheets but jumping to the conclusion that she might be or is probably wrong/lying about those sheets just seems like one more example of having to match evidence to a pet theory. I suppose I'm just pragmatic enough to think that if Pugh wasn't sure what sheets she put on the bed, she'd have said so. This isn't talking with your girlfriend over morning coffee, it's going on public record stating testimony of what occurred in the days preceding the murder of a six year old.

It doesn't mean LHP has to be on a pedestal to simply think she is telling the truth, to the best of her recollection.

 

Good point, Learnin. You'd have to really work at cutting them up into very small pieces but it could be done.

 

Learnin,

The next time you feel like cutting up a coat and flushing it down the toilet, just put it in a bag and take it to the Salvation Army, there's always someone looking for a coat.

 

Yeah, but it would take a long time and a LOT of flushing. Who had the time to do such a thing after JonBenet died? I don't know that they were thinking all THAT clearly.

 

Yes Elle but it probably is HIS coat and that's not nearly as satisfying. :floor:

Learnin you're my new hero. :bow:

 

LHP and her family went through hell in this case. She was unable to get another job- her INNOCENT young daughter was tormented at school. They had their problems, but I believe she was an honest person. She held Patsy and her family in very high regard, and I feel she loved JB. I think LHP was "chosen" by the Rs to be a "patsy" (no pun intended) and if the blame stuck, their problems were solved. LHP was uneducated, and in a much lower socioeconomic group than the Rs. They thought of her as not having the education, intelligence or money to fight this, so she was perfect target. I believe SHE was the one JR had in mind when he told Det. Arndt "this is an inside job". They were going to try to pin this on her. She had a key, knowledge of the family, knew about the back stairs and the wineceller, and she needed money.
Fortunately for her, NOTHING at all linked her to the crime, she and her family gave writing, hair and saliva and NO matches were found, NO fibers or anything else.

 

heymom

Right, Heymom.

I conceded that it would be possible to chop up a pull-up enough to flush it down the toilet. I did NOT say the Ramseys were likely to have done that.

First off, I agree that the Ramseys had too much other stuff that needed to be done before the call was made at 5 ish.

Secondly, as Cherokee commented, even if you chopped up the pull-up, I can't believe remnants wouldn't have been found when they took the pipes apart. I've seen those pull-ups deconstruct and part of what makes them so absorbent is these weird crystal type stuffing. By the time you chopped up a pull-up big enough for even a petite six year old, there would be lots of that messy guts material to get stuck in the pipes.

 

Yes and remember, Patsy IMMEDIATELY brought her in by saying LHP had asked her for a loan of $2000.

 

I'm trying to figure something out.
I'm thinking I read JB urinated at the time of death
due to her muscles relaxing.

Anyway, does that mean JB clothes were changed before she died?
Was she found wet or dry?

brenk

 

Glad you enjoyed it, Elle, it was rather funny. I can just see someone flushing an old coat down right now.

Seriously, though. There is a reason why LE confiscated all of the toilets....checking their traps for any remnant of paper, cord, etc.

It would have been very easy to dispose of any left over cord or a roll of duct tape for that matter. A bloody pair of underwear could have easily been flushed.

If I would have been involved in such a coverup, I would never have left the house to dispose of anything. Cords, duct tape, practice letters, underwear..anything like that would have been cut up and flushed. I would, then, flush and flush the same toilet multiple times to wash all evidence out of the trap and into the main drain. Then, I would fill bathtubs up and then pull the plug...letting them pour heavy amounts of water into the drain system so everything would be washed out into the main sewer line....

From the git go, the items, supposedly missing from the crime scene, have never caused a problem to me. Very easily disposed of right in the house.

 

It is possible, if the "flusher" was careless, that remnants of a pull-up could be found. This is why LE removed the toilets ( to check the traps) and some of the plumbing. They were, indeed, hoping that some of the evidence never made it out of the houses plumbing. Several flushes should have taken it to the main drain and then a bathtub, full of water, should have cleared the main drain. I'm not saying anything was flushed but it, easily, could have been.

If the "flusher" used enough water, then, small pieces of a pull-up, wads of toilet paper, and you know what, are going to be moved through the drain.
The toilet system uses a tank of water so that a great deal of water is emptied out into the drain thereby forcing material through the pipes. If this were not the case, we would experience clogging on a regular basis. If toilet paper and you know what, easily, remained in the plumbing, then, this would end in clogs. LE was hoping that a remnant of paper, cord, etc., would have clung to a pipe, etc. It doesn't mean that nothing was flushed just because they weren't able to come up with something.

 

Not only that, Elle, you wouldn't believe how sore my hands were after cutting that old corduroy coat up.....