Up in the air! It's a bird, it's a plane, no, it's John Ramsey!

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Cherokee, Nov 19, 2007.

  1. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I see your bull smit and raise you a truckload of Ramcrap!
  2. cynic

    cynic Member

    Don't you mean Lou Smit? :D
  3. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Same thing.
  4. Why_Nut

    Why_Nut FFJ Senior Member

    I am shocked, SHOCKED, to note that John Ramsey has sold his boat anchor, um, airplane. Dearly beloved N2059W, tireless workhorse in transporting John and Jan (but appparently very rarely Burke) just this month, August 2016.


    Maybe it have a less problematic history of malfunction than it did under John's ownership, when in October 2012 it had to make an emergency landing on a roadway in Minnesota.


    Edited to add:

    Nope, John's plane managed to get itself in a right pickle in August of 2015, just last year, when this happened...


    On August 16, 2015, about 1955 eastern daylight time, a Beech V35 airplane, N2059W, experienced a propeller and engine over speed while in cruise flight near Mount Vernon, Ohio. The pilot and passenger were not injured. The propeller separated from the propeller flange inflight and no damage was sustained to the airplane. The airplane was registered to the Bennett Ramsey Group and operated by a private individual under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 as a personal flight. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed for the flight, which operated on an instrument flight rules flight plan. The flight originated from the Rowan County Airport (KRUQ), Salisbury, North Carolina, at 1800 and was en route to the Ann Arbor Municipal Airport (KARB), Ann Arbor, Michigan.

    According to the pilot, while in cruise flight at 8,000 feet mean sea level, he heard a sudden high pitched whine from the engine. He saw that the engine tachometer read about 3,500 rpm. Unable to bring the engine rpm within limits, the pilot declared an emergency and headed towards the Knox County Airport (4I3). While on final approach to the airport, the pilot heard a "pop" and oil covered the windscreen. The pilot landed on the runway and discovered that the propeller was missing from the airplane.

    A postaccident examination of the engine found metal particles in the propeller governor. The propeller governor was removed from the airplane and sent to the manufacturer for an examination. An x-ray revealed that the flyweight was loose from its position and a bench-test of the governor would not be possible. Under the auspices of the Federal Aviation Administration, the governor was disassembled and examined. The hole for the flyweight retaining pin on the flyweight carrier was excessively worn and was not be able to properly secure the retaining pin. With the flyweight loose, the proper loading on the propeller governor pilot valve could not be maintained and the engine and propeller speed would then be commanded between 130-150%. A hardness test of the installed carrier did not meet factory specification and did not appear to be case hardened. Internal components were different than the factory original and it is likely that the governor had been overhauled at least once after it had left the manufacturer in 1966. Woodward did not have any record of a deficient batch of flyweight carriers not meeting hardness requirements and the history of the installed carrier flyweight is not known. Based on records provided by the owner, an engine logbook entry dated October 4, 1999, documented that an overhauled propeller governor was installed on the airplane. No further log book entries pertaining to the propeller governor were found in the provided records. Based off the information provided, it could not be determined if the incorrect part was installed in the propeller governor during the overhaul or at a time subsequent to the overhaul.
  5. questfortrue

    questfortrue Member

    Well, if one has a little ‘oopsie’ with a propeller falling off, and it seems it’s time to unload an old plane, there are always other opportunities to be a leader in the private aviation industry. Someone recently got a job as President of Redtail Air Adventures.


    I know what a few of you might be thinking - air surveillance. One could have some fun and yet also be on the lookout for the Intruder hiding out in the canyonlands of Utah.
  6. questfortrue

    questfortrue Member

    From PR’s 1996 Christmas letter: "John is always on the go travelling hither and yon.

    Since turning back to look at some items one more time (why IDK :)) I discovered a couple loose ends I wanted to pursue. One of the loose ends pertained to the flight to Charlevoix which was cancelled.

    I and others have been confused about the decision to fly up to Charlevoix after Christmas. KoldKase and Why_Nut, with instincts for the inexplicable reasoning of JR, asked the forum once why the family was converging in Charlevoix for only a couple of nights when they were leaving on Saturday or Sunday the 29th for the Disney Big Red Boat trip. JR’s explanation was that it would be fun to have Christmas up in Charlevoix. PR was not immediately on board, but acquiesced. I began to study the December activities in the context of the crime and came up with what Kolar calls flags. I’ll term them Road Signs because I believe they lead down a path of reactionary behavior. This is, of course, speculative on my part.

    What has bothered so many people who have ended up believing that BR was responsible for the head blow and perhaps even the whole thing is why the parents did not call 911 for help for their daughter. It is actually against the law not to seek medical help for a fatally injured child. Even if the ligature was already on her neck, one still calls 911 because immediately accepting that a child is gone isn’t something a parent does. If the Rs were only covering up, my questions were what played into their decisions.

    First Road Sign: Poster Zapata revealed JR’s spotty past employment and mentioned that some folks at Access Graphics claimed JR was not going to be retained in his position in 1997. This was known before JB’s death. Indeed Lockheed had brought back former owner Jim Hudson in late spring 1996 to take over the Access Graphics business in Europe and Canada. Discussions in spring and summer of 1996 also were taking place regarding the sale of some of LM’s subsidiaries, in order to consolidate their business.

    So I asked myself why would LM not want to retain JR, especially in light of AG hitting the billion dollar mark. If a CEO is invaluable to a company’s profitability, a company will fight to retain him. A simple conjecture is that LM had noticed irregularities in personnel or financial management. Such irregularities are a flag with corporations.

    Second Road Sign: JR allegedly stored office files in the hangar, three sources from different law enforcement agencies said. Here’s how this played out:

    In a scathing, signed letter to the Daily Camera on Thursday JR berated the Boulder Police Department and pleaded for a shift in leadership of the investigation into his daughter's murder.

    JR also cited a Daily Camera article Wednesday regarding detectives verbal inquiries about search warrants for an airplane hangar and JR's office. The Boulder County District Attorney's Office informed police that detectives did not have probable cause to investigate the hangar or the office.

    "... had the police simply asked for access to my office, our company's hangar space, or any other facility, it would have been granted," JR wrote. "... my airplane (which by the way is a 27-year-old airplane, not a sleek jet, as is commonly reported) is, and has been, stored in a public hangar, not the Access hangar space which is used for the storage of Access historical financial records.

    If one doesn’t know that JR owned two planes, it would be confusing whether Access Graphics had its own plane and hangar. JR’s two planes were a Beechcraft King air 65-c90 with more seating which would have been the plane used for the Charlevoix trip, and a single-engine Cessna. JR told investigators he was cleaning the plane for about 3 hours on Christmas Day. Later, in conversation with his co-pilot, Mike Archuleta, after JB’s body had been discovered, JR asked whether the plane was ready. Archuleta relayed it would take about 2 hours to prepare it for flight. Certainly the King air was ready since the family was preparing to fly out at 7:00 the day after Christmas. My original conclusion was that JR was talking about the Cessna, but then maybe refiling flight plans would have taken two hours.

    If the information is correct, that JR was going to be unemployed sometime in 1997, my ‘flags’ are coming into focus.

    -LM possibly had unaddressed issues with JR before JB’s death. LM had not yet sold AG to GE at that point in time. The question to ask is why wouldn’t JR still be retained within the company.

    -Three hours to clean wheels on the King air or just hang around planes is a peculiar explanation for Christmas day activities. Traveling to Charlevoix for one or two nights is also a strange choice. When I learned that files of AG were stored in the hangar with one of the planes, it occurred to me that there might have been some file sorting on Christmas day to account for that 3-hour window away from the family. Further speculation on my part is whether any of these ‘unneeded’, cough, files were scheduled to be disposed of in Charlevoix. (I recall BR was promised a big fireplace bonfire. :))

    The bottom line for me is that it was likely JR was in a state of anxiety over his employment. And yet they were spending money to fly many places and take a cruise Does the flight to Charlevoix, AG files, and JR’s future unemployment intersect in some way? This path leads me to my last consideration.

    There can be layers of motivations in decisions. When JB’s death occurred, JR knew how much their family would be investigated. It’s been my observation that wrong decisions of the monumental sort are made out of great fear, not out of great love and courage. While JR and PR appeared to love their children, the abandonment of the truth hurt them all. Since no one knows beyond our theories who was responsible for JB’s death or prior sexual injuries, and we only have the miserable decisions of the family, it’s difficult to say what JR’s greatest fear was.

    If JR wasn’t afraid of going to jail and losing their stature, he most definitely would have been afraid of his career potential, of not being able to secure a position in the future. Examining the reality of future unemployment is where I started this over-long post. I believe it was one factor that had to have played into their decisions that night. It is funny how suspicion works -- employers are a little reluctant to hire someone who still carries the stench underneath that umbrella. JR was right about that.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
  7. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    Hi qft, Do you know if more information ever came out about the run-in at Jeffco on Christmas Day?

    3 LOU SMIT: Okay, we're still talking
    4 Christmas day. And what time do you think you left
    5 for the airport?
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: It was after breakfast. You
    7 know, 11, 12, probably somewhere there. I spent
    8 some time, it was in the Steven's Aviation hangar.
    9 There were a couple of mechanics there and running
    10 boys. But the place was pretty well closed down.
    11 But I spent some time cleaning it, having it
    12 ready.
    13 LOU SMIT: Anybody that you talked to or anything?
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: I spoke to one of the line guys.
    15 LOU SMIT: You know his name?
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't. He was just one of the
    17 guys that was there on Christmas day. But the
    18 airplane was in their hangar, in the maintenance
    19 hangar. Which is not normally where it's kept. But
    20 it was there that day. And I just puttered around
    21 for a few hours actually. Probably got home about
    22 threeish, probably.
    23 LOU SMIT: Did you have a run-in with somebody
    24 at the airport over the parking of the plane, that
    25 I remember reading someplace; some guy that you
    1 had a run-in with at the airport? Could you just
    2 think of that for a little bit?
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) I don't remember
    4 that now.
    5 LOU SMIT: I remember something (INAUDIBLE).
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't specifically remember
    7 anything like that.
    8 LOU SMIT: So got home at about three?
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.

    and JR always takes work up there:

    17 MIKE KANE: So you find the Kind Air. Did
    18 you normally have a copilot?
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: I normally took a pilot with
    20 me.
    21 MIKE KANE: And was there any reason than
    22 obviously you're (INAUDIBLE)?
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) safety. I wasn't
    24 terribly (INAUDIBLE) I didn't fly every week. I
    25 just felt safer, and it wasn't a big expense to
    1 take a pilot. Mark Archuleta normally flew with
    2 me. He was a friend. He was nice to have around.
    3 We took him to Charlevoix I always took some work
    4 up there, so it was --
    5 MIKE KANE: That's what I want to ask you?
    6 What would he do when you --
    7 JOHN RAMSEY: He stayed with us in the house.
    8 If we had work to do, he'd pitch in. If we wanted
    9 a babysitter, he'd watch the kids. He was great.
    10 MIKE KANE: And how long were you intending
    11 to stay in Charlevoix?
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: When it comes to the days, I
    13 don't remember. I believe we were leaving for this
    14 Big Red Boat thing on Saturday morning, and we
    15 were planning to come back on Friday from
    16 Charlevoix.
    17 MIKE KANE: Okay.
  8. questfortrue

    questfortrue Member

    BBM: We took him to Charlevoix I always took some work
    up there

    Interesting find. :winkaway: I’d never noted that before. It does give an explanation why JR may have had paperwork to take along to Charlevoix.

    I don’t know any more about the dispute at the airport. One of the subpoenas issued early by the Grand Jury was for records from Steven’s Aviation. Possibly the GJ was checking to see a check-in time for JR or confirming the locale of his two planes. If he was taking some things to the plane, a parking dispute may have occurred because it was easier to park close to the hangar in a no-parking area.
  9. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    It reads like it was an issue with the parking of the plane - that is was not where it usually was parked or should have been parked?
  10. questfortrue

    questfortrue Member

    I agree it does read as though it’s a plane parking issue. Since it was 'classic' Smit who couldn’t exactly remember and simply trusted JR’s memory I probably assumed the reference was to vehicle parking. It’s certainly possible the King Air had been left in the maintenance hangar inappropriately or longer than it should have been, and JR got into a tiff over it. The story never received traction anywhere, but there was something the GJ wanted to know from Steven’s Aviation records.

    Rocky Mountain News 11/13/98
    Ramsey jury subpoenas records
    Firm that maintained family plane complies

    By Charlie Brennan
    News Staff Writer
    Records subpoenaed from the company that maintained John Ramsey's private plane at Jefferson County Airport were delivered Thursday to grand jurors hearing evidence in his daughter's murder.
    Police and prosecutors have never commented on what, if any, significance Stevens Aviation -- a fixed air base operation that maintains private and corporate planes -- might play in the probe.
  11. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    It is interesting to note Lockheed Martin was finally able to sell Access Graphics in November 1997.

    The deception and corruption in this case has always run deep and wide.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2017
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