Was Patsy taking Klonopin?

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Barbara, Aug 31, 2006.

  1. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    I was reading at Websleuths and one of the posters mentioned some remarks made by Wendy Murphy and it was mentioned that Patsy was taking Klonopin

    Is this a fact? Did I miss this? Did I forget this after so many years?

    As far as possibly having given Klonopin to JBR (the subject of the discussion), I don't know how much drug testing was done or what if anything can still be done. Sometimes drugs can be found in the hair no matter how long a person is deceased, but I am not sure about substances such as Klonopin.
  2. Why_Nut

    Why_Nut FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, this is a fact, as noted in the 1998 interviews.

    MIKE KANE: Any other medications along that line that she's taking?

    JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think --

    MIKE KANE: Not now?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Well, earlier on, we also took, it was like, I could never have been a doctor.

    MIKE KANE: Xanax?

    JOHN RAMSEY: No. Klonopin.

    MIKE KANE: Klonopin?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Klonopin. And that was kind of on an as needed basis for a while. It was kind of a quick, picker upper, I guess.

    In addition to that:

    JOHN RAMSEY: Well she's on Prozac now, and that's because of JonBenet, but no, I don't think so.

    MIKE KANE: Was she ever on any medication at all?

    JOHN RAMSEY: I don't think so.

    MIKE KANE: Other than Prozac?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, during this last period? Well, yeah. She had taken Paxil for a while. They switched her to Prozac, which is similar.

    MIKE KANE: I think you said you were taking Paxil --

    JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.

    MIKE KANE: -- when you were, and you switched to(INAUDIBLE)?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Right. I don't know, Patsy just said she felt better on it, and so I gave it a shot.

    MIKE KANE: (INAUDIBLE)? The stuff is expensive?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Maybe a little, I don't know. It seems to help, and it's the kind of drug that you can't just quit taking one day. You have to taper off of it. So it's just that if you're taking it and try to get off of it and see how you feels.
  3. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    Is that drug a picker upper or a go to sleeper?
  4. heymom

    heymom Member

    It's actually an anti-seizure medication that can control anxiety as a sort of unplanned side benefit. It will make you drowsy too.

  5. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    heymom thanks!
  6. heymom

    heymom Member

    I just read where John thought it was a "picker-upper." No way - if you take it even minimally you are advised not to drive or use machinery. And no doctor would give an upper to a family in heavy grief. It would cause anxiety and agitation and disrupt any sleep they might get.

    Heymom, amateur pharmacologist.
  7. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    I believe PR was taking that before the murder - was it because of her cancer treatments?
  8. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    Anticonvulsants: These drugs, originally developed to help manage seizures, are helpful in relieving cancer-related neuropathic (nerve) pain. Some anticonvulsant medications used for cancer pain management include Neurontin®, Tegretol® and Klonopin®, among others. Side effects can include lowered blood counts, dizziness, blurred vision, and nausea. Anticonvulsants may take some time to reach peak effectiveness. Another medication, baclofen (Lioresol®), which is not an anticonvulsant, is also effective for some people experiencing shooting, stabbing and knife-like neuropathic pain.

  9. Why_Nut

    Why_Nut FFJ Senior Member

    Interesting! I never knew of that purpose for Klonopin. What makes that interesting is that John specifically mentions that Patsy had, after her initial chemo treatments, begun to experience that specific symptom, although in his interview he does not make explicit the possibility that Patsy was on Klonopin before JonBenet's death for the neuropathy she was experiencing, and simply never bothered to tell John, as she failed to do with her panic attacks. What John did say was this:

    MIKE KANE: Had she had any ancillary effects of that?

    JOHN RAMSEY: She lost a lot of feeling in her legs, her feet. All the nerves were killed. Chemotherapy is killing the body, as you well know. And it kills nerve endings. And she still, I don't think, has a lot of feeling in her feet. It's slowly coming back. That's probably the main thing. She still kind of has pain.

    MIKE KANE: Any other limitations on her now?


    MIKE KANE: No lasting effects outside of the neurological?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Perhaps. On her body, she has a big scar up and down her chest. I mean you couldn't pay her enough to put a bikini on. But other than that, no.
  10. cindysnow3

    cindysnow3 Member

    I take Klonopin for my seizures along with my Topamax. It causes me to be drowsy. It is also given to people for restless leg syndrome.
  11. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    I thought I'd read it somewhere she was on it before the murder - still reading, looking for the source. Have to go for now - this is on my list to look up cause it's really bugging me.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2006
  12. heymom

    heymom Member

    Klonopin was just the right medication, then, because it works really well for panic attacks. (Know from my own experience)

    Heymom, certified and should not be out alone...
  13. Why_Nut

    Why_Nut FFJ Senior Member

    Hypothetically, if someone was on Klonopin, and went off it within a short period of time because, again hypothetically, nobody else in one's family knew one was on it and it would be considered a source of stress to have one's spouse suddenly find out about it in the cramped quarters of, say, a cruise ship where it would be hard to hide the medication, would trying to wean one's self off it cause a build up of anxiety, pain and stressful feelings that might manifest in an emotional outburst uncharacteristic of one's normal level?
  14. heymom

    heymom Member

    Hmmmm...it is considered to be addictive at a certain dosage - doctors are careful about prescribing it at a higher dosage for a long period of time. And if the reason for the panic attacks had not been addressed, then the person might return to the same state as previously experienced. I do not believe it would be anything akin to a drug withdrawal or detox, however. I took this medication at a very low dosage for a short period of time. It worked beautifully, and in fact, I have not had a panic attack since (cured?? :) Maybe) I experienced no heightened anxiety when I stopped taking it. In fact, I took it only as needed when I felt my panic beginning.

    Do you think that JR would have been upset to know that PR was taking Klonopin, or that she would have feared he would be upset? The way he's described, he sounds so distant and removed from the family that I doubt he would care.

  15. epc

    epc Banned

    "Do you think that JR would have been upset to know that PR was taking Klonopin, or that she would have feared he would be upset? The way he's described, he sounds so distant and removed from the family that I doubt he would care."

    I don't think he would be very interested, but I think he wouldn't have APPROVED! He probably looked down at anyone taking those kinds of meds and would have felt Patsy was "weak" for needing them...if he had any thoughts at all!!!
  16. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    JR took melatonin to help himself sleep. I don't really think he would have objected to Patsy's taking a drug for pain and anxiety; why would he? He claimed he didn't even know his daughter was still wetting the bed. I don't think he paid much attention to those sorts of things.

    And, they both drank alcohol, which may not be classified as a drug, but is certainly a mood-altering substance.
  17. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    Klonopin is a pretty common medication for the people I work with and I will say that very often the dosages get adjusted because of the excessive drooling that is one of the main side effects, at least with the population that I work with

    One should not drink alcohol when taking Klonopin either
  18. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    If someone has taken Klonopin every day for over a period of 4-6 weeks, then their body is addicted. Klonopin is a benzodiazepine which is as addictive as heroin or cocaine to the brain's GABA receptors. If a person is on more than an extremely low dosage of Klonopin, then abrupt stoppage of the drug is not recommended, ESPECIALLY if the body is used to receiving it every day.

    Sudden removal of the drug from a person's system will cause extreme agitation, anxiety, nervousness and other symptoms of withdrawal. If a person has been taking a fairly regular, or high dose, of Klonopin for more than two months, they may even experience severe withdrawal symptoms such as crawling skin, body aches, and suffocating panic.

    The addictive nature of Klonopin (and other benzodiazepines such as Valium, Xanax and Ativan) is why most doctors warn against prolonged usage on a daily basis. If Patsy was used to taking Klonopin on every day and abruptly quit for any reason, by the second day of stoppage, she would definitely have been in, and felt the effects of, severe withdrawal.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2007
  19. Why_Nut

    Why_Nut FFJ Senior Member

    We have more data points to chew on for pondering. John conveys in his 1998 interview that, even when he was being treated for various ills, he could not be bothered to complete a simple antibiotic course of medication, which may indicate an attitude that could have been somewhat anti-medication.

    MIKE KANE: I think you said yesterday that all those medications (INAUDIBLE) Melinda, your daughter, is a nurse. You said that at one point she came in and she cleaned out that kind of old stuff. When was that?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, it might have been when she graduated or close to it, which would have been '95, '96.

    MIKE KANE: You know (INAUDIBLE)?

    JOHN RAMSEY: I mean you go to the doctor and you get some antibiotics and you don't take the whole bottle because you start feeling better and you quit taking them. We had (INAUDIBLE) left around like that.

    Combine that with John's lack of knowledge about Patsy's state of mental health.

    MIKE KANE: What do you know about Mrs. Ramsey having panic attacks?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Um, I don't know what a panic attack is, I guess, for sure. How would you -- describe it.

    MIKE KANE: Just a feeling that you can't control the moment, overreacting to something maybe more than would be within a normal range. Just feeling, I can't handle the situation.

    JOHN RAMSEY: She is as stable as a rock.

    MIKE KANE: So you have never known her to have those?

    JOHN RAMSEY: (No response).

    MIKE KANE: Never known her to be treated for those?


    MIKE KANE: Never known her to take any medication for those?

    JOHN RAMSEY: (Nodding).

    MIKE KANE: Would it surprise you to find out that she did?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. That would.

    MIKE KANE: Did you ever hear the drug Xanax, X-A-N-A-X?

    JOHN RAMSEY: (No response).

    MIKE KANE: Ever known Ms. Ramsey to take that?


    Now, evaluate that in light of what Patsy has to say on the same subject.

    TOM HANEY: You mentioned earlier about getting counseling for Burke. How about counseling for you and John?

    PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, yeah, yeah.

    TOM HANEY: You still going or--

    PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

    TOM HANEY: Both of you?

    PATSY RAMSEY: Not as frequently now. I mean when I first started going, when I came back to Colorado after burying JonBenet, I mean I never had any experience with psychotherapy, because I never really needed it, even when I had cancer, I didn't feel like I needed it, because I had support of my husband, my family and my faith and you know, God healed me and I could get bigger. But this was just, you know, way beyond anything. And I realized, I mean it was after several weeks of just being in that fetal position, crying, and just not wanting to live basically, and you think, I can't go on like this. I need help. And I wasn't real sure what was out there, because I never had any experience to know what was out there. So actually, Barbara Fernie picked me up one day from where we were staying and I started having a panic attack, hyperventilating and all that stuff, and she was taking me to the doctor at that time, I had a bronchial infection, by the time I got to the doctor's office I was in a full-blown panic attack, this was in January or so.

    And then:

    TOM HANEY: These panic attacks that you mentioned, was that the first time that you had suffered through one of those or had you had those prior?

    PATSY RAMSEY: I had had one one other time, when I was in Boulder Community Hospital in the cancer clinic. And it was about midway through my chemo session, my nine-month session, and I guess all of sudden it just kind of came crashing in as to what was really happening. And I started trembling and shaking. The numbness in my lips.

    TOM HANEY: Those were your normal symptoms?

    PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. It was gone in a little bit, you know.

    Finally, Patsy has gone on the record herself as expressing hesitation about bringing before John a course of action that she herself would approve of taking, and even one that John might approve of, but still involving an avoidance of asking John to encourage or approve or even just tolerate this action, if it involves John's explicit knowledge of what his family is doing that does not affect him directly.

    One morning John was working in the garage when he saw Sister Socks gingerly walking toward him with a tiny kitten in her mouth. She laid the kitten down at hls feet and stood back, as if to say, “Here’s my baby. Could you help me take care of it?†John made a box, lined with a blanket, to put the little kitten in. Soon Sister Socks came back with another kitten - and another one. John is not particularly a cat person, but he and Sister Socks were now bonded. I know he would have taken her and her three kittens back to Boulder at the end of the summer, but I was afraid to ask him - and he wasn’t about to volunteer.

    Afraid? What on earth about this scenario invokes the concept of being "afraid" of anything, let alone of John?

    In my opinion, this was not an isolated instance, and for all we know, there were many reasons for Patsy to be "afraid" of asking John to approve of actions "he wasn't about to volunteer," some of which may have involved exposing as false Patsy's facade to John of being "stable as a rock."
  20. Why_Nut

    Why_Nut FFJ Senior Member

    I add that information in to the case, and feel it is a reasonable theory that, on December 26th, Patsy's friends and family witnessed a range of Patsy behavior that they had never witnessed before. I have no idea why this gets blown off so easily by her friends and family, but they themselves have said that until December 26th of 1996, not a single one of them ever saw Patsy break down and sob hysterically, become immobile, become distraught beyond all help, and basically become a person that was not in any way the Patsy Ramsey of December 25th and before. That previous Patsy was always known to be cool, calm and in control, especially under stress like that of the death of Beth, her own cancer, and even JonBenet's emergency-room visit in the wake of being bashed in the face and leg by Burke's golf club.

    I will add one more piece of data in to the pool. According to the 1998 interview, John's and Patsy's own lawyers were asked if all of the family's medical records were available for release, and the lawyers did not immediately say "yes." Instead, we see this from Bryan Morgan.

    BRYAN MORGAN: I have a real problem with certain kinds of medical records. These people are entitled to a privacy to try to recover from what they have been through, and that's a very serious issue for me, so we are going to discuss that and make a reasoned decision on it. I think you will find that every time anybody has asked us for anything in your office you have gotten it. I think you will get virtually everything you have described with the possible exception of personal medical records that I think John and Patsy are at least entitled to make a reasoned decision on, Detective Smit, with respect to privacy about things they need to continue this healing process.

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