Was Patsy taking Klonopin?

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Barbara, Aug 31, 2006.

  1. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    VERY interesting. Wonder what they are hiding?

    I would love to know, short of poisons, which can be detected years after death, if there are other chemicals that might be discovered with an exhumation from hair samples?
     
  2. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    The first part of John's interview where he says he couldn't be bothered to take all the prescribed medicine wouldn't necessarily mean he is anti-medicine. My doctor told me a lot of people start getting better, and they think they are cured, so they don't finish taking the medication. I did that a couple of times, myself, just because taking medicine was just something else I had to remember to do, and if I felt better and it was one thing off my list of things to remember, I'd toss the rest of the bottle.

    That wasn't the right thing to do, and that was back when I was young and foolish. I would never do that now, because I know it gives the bacteria a better chance of overcoming the medication. But, that could also be an option as to why John said he couldn't be bothered.

    Patsy's interview is very interesting. I remember, now, reading that she was afraid to ask John, but I didn't know what she meant at the time. I still don't, really. Some spouses will say things like that in a joking manner, like I would like three more cats, but Joe would probably kill me, haha. It's hard to tell how Patsy meant that without seeing her body language and if she might have been smiling when she said it.

    OTOH, I always thought JR was controlling and Patsy was passive in that relationship. She was the good, trophy wife - staying home with the children, being the social butterfly and volunteering for school projects and social events. She had her own household bank account and John put money in it for her to use as she wanted. He was the breadwinner, the one who needed a trophy wife and two perfect children. I don't think he was abusive, but he seemed above it all - like he didn't really want to be bothered with the particulars. Let Patsy make the arrangements for whatever, and he'd do his duty, if it didn't interfere with his business schedule. Patsy's lone plane trips to Atlanta for cancer treatments pretty much confirms that.

    This is obviously speculation, I don't know how they lived their lives. I just can't see him interfering in Patsy's cancer treatments and medications. Even the coldest bastid would think twice about doing something that could negatively affect his trophy wife's recovery, wouldn't he? Maybe I've just not met anyone that cold.
     
  3. Why_Nut

    Why_Nut FFJ Senior Member

    I also cannot see him actively intefering, but before he could interfere, he would have to know that there was something to interfere with, so to speak. I think Patsy was a good judge of people's habits and instincts, and volumes of anecdotal evidence speak to how she was canny enough to play to a person's own nature and change her own in accordance with what they were comfortable with. Sort of like a personality psychic, if you will; she would know what a person would want or not want to be around, even if the person themselves did not necessarily know. If John had ever during the course of their marriage discussed how weak or uncomfortable it made him feel around people who were sick, because he could not do anything to help them, Patsy could well have picked up on that and made sure that, if at all possible, she kept herself from appearing any weaker or sick than was impossible to avoid, in the name of sparing her husband from feeling worse than he already may have. That may have manifested itself in the form of taking prescription medication like Klonopin before JonBenet's death, in order to ease her own pains that she did not want John to bear as a burden of knowledge he could do nothing with, but the risk in that could have been in her own lack of support structure in dealing with the effect of what could have gone wrong if she tinkered with the dose, or even quit it altogether under an impending circumstance (the cruise) that may have forced the issue into the open. Then, as an effect of the effort to hide this dosing process from John, her emotions escalated out of control, she found herself on the evening of December 25th in a situation she finally could not handle, and the fallout could have begun.
     
  4. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin


    This is good reasoning, if too fast withdrawal from the medicine would have this kind of effect on someone. I don't know if it would or not.

    I kind of got the impression from watching Patsy's antics during the police interviews that Patsy could be confrontational without any help. Reference when she said, "Don't go there, pal." She had no problem getting in the detective's face when she didn't want to answer questions about her son. She could also be quite flip and sarcastic. I just think there was another side to Patsy Ramsey that was seldom shown to the public, and it had nothing to do with medicine.
     
  5. JanPat

    JanPat Member

    Klonopin is also used "off label" as a mood stabilizer for bipolar disorder. It can be particularly beneficial for the sleep distubances associated with bipolar. Some of its side effect can include (emphasis mine)

    Less Common: Anxiety; confusion (may be more common in the elderly); fast, pounding, or irregular heartbeat; lack of memory of events taking place after benzodiazepine is taken (may be more common with triazolam) ; mental depression

    Rare: Abnormal thinking, including disorientation, delusions (holding false beliefs that cannot be changed by facts), or loss of sense of reality; agitation; behavior changes, including aggressive behavior, bizarre behavior, decreased inhibition, or outbursts of anger; convulsions (seizures); hallucinations (seeing, hearing, or feeling things that are not there); hypotension (low blood pressure); muscle weakness; skin rash or itching; sore throat, fever, and chills; trouble in sleeping; ulcers or sores in mouth or throat (continuing); uncontrolled movements of body, including the eyes; unusual bleeding or bruising; unusual excitement, nervousness, or irritability; unusual tiredness or weakness (severe); yellow eyes or skin

    Some of these possible side effects are one of the reasons we put my 10 year old bilpolar daughter on Depakote (anti-siezure med) for mood stabilization and Clonidine (non-addictive blood pressure med) for bipolar-related sleep disturbances. Not trying to slam Klonopin--the benefits can far outweigh the risks for many people. However, with the violent outbursts we've experienced when my daughter's in the manic phase, we just couldn't risk any acceleration of the aggression!

    Appreciate the direction this thread's taking. I've long been a PDI, but coming to grips with the WHY is what so many resist. Perhaps if there were a mental/physical health reason behind that kind of rage or delusional thinking, people might be more accepting that it COULD happen. :winkaway:
     
  6. BluesStrat

    BluesStrat BANNED !!!!!


    Do you work with MS patients, Barbara? I can tell you from experience that Klonopin is a highly prescribed drug for MS patients. With MS, you lose the ability to move your muscles, but your brain still causes your muscles to cramp due to lack of use. Klonopin helps greatly with the muscle spasms, and yes drooling is a problem. Perhaps you remember that skank wife of Richard Pryor dragging him out in public so he could drool all over himself in front of the cameras.
     
  7. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    Curiouser and curiouser!
     
  8. love_mama

    love_mama Member

    Think I wanted to forget this.

    JanPat, I know what you are going through and am saying prayers for your family!

    My daughter too was Bipolar and some of those manic phase's could get pretty bad.
    My daughter (who has since died) was diagnosed at age 21. Prior to that
    she was normal hard working gal, going to college and seemed just like anyone else her age.

    My sister had recently had surgery so I was staying at her house for a few days.
    My husband called me from from home and said.............."Come over here and pick up XXXXX. She drowned our new little kitten ". I started shivering and almost fainted! I couldn't believe what had happened. I'd had an appointment with the Dentist that day.......but I went home......and told my daughter that I was going to take her to the dentist with me. She seemed just like herself and I thought everything would just go away........I was in complete denial. A few minutes after getting into my car She started hitting me. Pounding on me. I drove over to the curb and parked. I very calmly told her that is was NOT nice to hit me and would she please stop. She glared me without saying anything........but she did stop the hitting and I drove back home.

    That nite........with the help of a friend (not my husband)........we took her to the County Mental Health Center and screaming and yelling they checked her into the facility. As I watch them take her I thought my whole world was literally falling apart. It had come on..........so sudden.........with no notice it was simply impossible to believe what was happening.
    Long story..........and at 27 she was killed in an accident. Only now, do I know she's safe from the one of most brutal diseases of mankind!

    If......Patsy, by taking medications might have experienced this type of mania I am today, certain that she could also have become very violent and disoriented and killed her daughter. BTW............my daughter always loved animals. She just adored kittens!

    I hope this helps..........

    xxxxxxxxxoooooo
    mama
     
  9. heymom

    heymom Member

    Are you wondering if she was in withdrawal from the Klonopin when the murder or accident/cover-up happened? Is there any other evidence that she had stopped taking the pills? Did she have a refill due that she didn't fill? Or was she still taking the pills at the time of the crime and then stopped taking them? Trying to understand this line of thought...

    Heymom :confused:
     
  10. love_mama

    love_mama Member

    Here are some Withdrawl Symptoms for Klonopin

    taken from
    http://www.benzo.org.uk/kws.htm
    Here are some of the Psychiatric Withdrawl Symptoms of Klonopin!
    - amnesia
    - anxiety
    - confusion
    - delusions
    - depression
    - euphoria
    - forgetfulness
    - hallucinations
    - hysteria
    - increased libido
    - insomnia
    - psychosis
    - suicidal thoughts

    and here are what they call PARADOXICAL Withdrawl symtoms :
    - agitation
    - aggressive behaviour
    - anxiety
    - depression
    - excitability
    - hostility
    - irritability
    - nervousness
    - nightmares, vivid dreams
    - sleep disturbance

    xxxxxxxxxxooooo
    mama
     
  11. JanPat

    JanPat Member

    Love Mama, thanks for the words of support. My heartfelt sympathies are with you on the loss of your daughter. The reality of the disease is something no one can comprehend until you've seen it first hand. Mine threatened her assistant principal with a pair of scissors but has absolutely no memory of having done so. We've been fortunate enough to avoid the justice system, but the police in our small town are aware of her as they were called to the school multiple times to intervene during her rages.

    In our case, I'm optimistic. She was diagnosed at 8 years old so we've had some time to work with it before she becomes big enough to be a serious danger. I've had to fight tooth and nail--with a good psychiatrist willing to work on the medication balances and a school system that I've drug kicking & screaming with us, she's been relatively stable for awhile. Just today, I found out they're going to start moving her out of the special ed classes and integrating her back into mainstream. :aprop:

    Not to hijack the thread, so back to what I was going to respond to:

    Heymom, I think what people are trying to get at is could there be some medical reason beyond simple stress that Patsy could have snapped? If she was on Klonipin, could she have been experiencing some of the significantly undesirable side effects? If she'd been on it and abruptly stopped could she have been having withdrawal symptoms that bordered on a psychotic episode? Could the underlying reason for taking Klonipin be the real culprit? Was Patsy suffering from some form of mental illness or seizure disorder that she was desperate to hide? Could that be the deep, dark secret the Ramseys couldn't let anyone know? With their devotion to social status, admission of mental illness and it's associated stigma would be absolutely taboo. Just a few possibilites to toss around!
     
  12. heymom

    heymom Member

    If that were the case, couldn't they have used that as a cover story if it had been an accident? Oh, that's right - the probable sexual abuse would still have emerged during medical treatment or during autopsy assuming JonBenet would have died.

    We will just never know, will we...

    Heymom
     
  13. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    "I think what people are trying to get at is could there be some medical reason beyond simple stress that Patsy could have snapped?"

    it makes sense!

    I've thought this for many months. Now, something concrete comes along.
     
  14. heymom

    heymom Member

    Sorry, I don't understand - what is concrete that has come along? I thought it was just speculation.

    Heymom
     
  15. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member


    Sorry it took so long to respond. I work with the mentally retarded and physically disabled, mainly those with Cerebral Palsy, most of whom have seizure and behavioral disorders. I order, on a regular basis, adult bibs for the drooling, some caused, of course from the CP and dysphagia disorders and many from seizure and behavioral medications. Klonopin is one of the drugs that I know causes a lot of drooling.


    And yeah, lol, I remember Pryor's wife bringing a drooling Pryor out for all to see.
     
  16. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    I mean, unless I misread it, she WAS taking it, right?
     
  17. love_mama

    love_mama Member

    I don't think we know for sure if she was taking it prior to the murder but.......and I can't find it, I do belive that in one of the transcriptions......that I read this morning she was asked what kind of drugs she had been prescribed and I think one of them was Klonopin.

    Also....we're just spectulating as to "what if" she had been on that med and had suddenly quit..

    Someone with more patience than I here.....can hopefully find this somewhere. It's in a section where she's giving a deposition........just adding this now......
    ----------------------------------------------------
    Edited to ADD THIS
    Barbara at the begining of this thread......say's it came from a interview with Mike Kane.........this:

    Barbara posted:
    Yes, this is a fact, as noted in the 1998 interviews.

    MIKE KANE: Any other medications along that line that she's taking?

    JOHN RAMSEY: No, I don't think --

    MIKE KANE: Not now?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Well, earlier on, we also took, it was like, I could never have been a doctor.

    MIKE KANE: Xanax?

    JOHN RAMSEY: No. Klonopin.

    MIKE KANE: Klonopin?

    JOHN RAMSEY: Klonopin. And that was kind of on an as needed basis for a while. It was kind of a quick, picker upper, I guess.

    MY OPINION........Not only is John Ramsey evasive, I think he's STUPID!
    NAW.........dumb like a Fox is more like it!



    xxxxxxxxxxoooooo
    mama
     
  18. Carol

    Carol Member

    Klonopin doesn't cause very many side effects. You wouldn't even be able to tell if someone is taking it. I know from experience. It depends on the dosage. For anxiety, the dosage would be fairly low.
     
  19. heymom

    heymom Member

    This was true in my case. I had no side effects except that it almost instantly stopped any panic attack that was beginning. I think I was taking .5 mg, maybe even .2 mg. But I almost never get side effects from any medication I take - I'm unusual that way. I know the doctor would not increase my dosage unless I was really not functioning at all.

    And, I never had any reaction when I stopped it. None at all.

    Heymom
     
  20. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    But did you take it daily? Morning and/or evening regular dose?
     
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