Where are all of Karr's victims?

I think John Mark Karr is delusional -- that goes without saying. I think he was set-up by Michael Tracey -- that goes without saying.

What I don't believe goes without saying is the fact that not a single child or woman has stepped forward to say she was molested/raped by Karr.

Why?

I don't think he has done ANYTHING he says he's done...including all the BS about taking the girls in his car or kissing them on their mouths....I think it's all BS. He's delusional and he had an audience...be it Hutchens recording him or Tracey emailing him.

I really believe it's all in his head.

The only thing we KNOW isn't in his head is that he was asked to leave/resign several teaching positions. But again, it was NOT due to his molesting children. The other teachers thought he was weird and some of the kids were afraid of him...but the fear was due to what? Inappropriate talk? Sitting on the floor with the kids? All I've heard is that some kids cried. But why? He didn't touch them, he didn't molest them, he was weird.

And look to Karr's home day care business. Not a single complaint from the children or the mothers.

But just as thinking oneself is a murderer doesn't make him one, neither does talking about having little girls in the car make one a pedophile/molester.

I'm having a hard time watching this case fall through because Karr's delusional. Not one single thing he said about JonBenet was true inasmuch as he had anything to do with her. He goes on and on and on about how he loves her and was with her, etc., but it's all in his head.

So why is everyone so readily able to believe his other delusions about little girls?

I'm not trying to defend the guy. I'm just wondering where the proof is that he's as dangerous as he thinks he is. He's a sick man, for sure. But there's a difference in sicknesses where otoh, he's delusional and says he stalks and hurts little girls compared to where he actually does stalks and hurts the little girls. I've seen no proof of the latter.

 

If this had been an intruder, there would have been a hundred Jonbenet's by now!

 

On one of the news programs last night, the reporter said that the computer confiscated from Karr's room in Thailand has yet to be examined. The authorities are very interested to see every trace of internet activity and email on his hard drive.


I almost giggled to myself wondering if HIR would be among his email addresses.

 

Here it is, Nancy Grace last night: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0608/31/ng.01.html

snippets, with the last sentence being of most interest.

"CASAREZ: I think that`s the important question. There are two computers, all right? One is in California already. That`s from 2001, all right? We know that they`ve been looking at that. They`re trying to get another warrant to delve deeper into all of that.

But there`s another computer that stands untouched at this moment. That is the computer that he brought back from Thailand with all of his personal belongings. Now, Nancy, the 2001 computer that was used -- he had a wife, he had three young kids. Maybe he didn`t have all the freedom he wanted with that computer.

Well, this one in Thailand, it was in another country, didn`t a wife, didn`t have kids. We don`t know what he did. And if he not only possessed child porn but distributed it, e-mailed it to anyone in the United States, if they can get a warrant to look into that computer, that`s going to be allegedly a federal crime. Then he would become a registered sex offender and he could possibly could go under the Jessica Lunsford Act, which means electronic monitoring as a registered sex offender."



"GRACE: OK. If it`s bumped up to a felony, which means he e-mailed even one picture -- and oh, P.S., update, I know a lot of you all saw our special about Masha, the 5-year-old Russian girl who adopted by an American pedophile. She is the number-one child porn star on the Internet. Allegedly this guy, John Mark Karr, has pornographic shots of that little girl. My, my, my, what a small world of pedophiles, Marc Klaas."


"STEVEN ROGERS, COMPUTERS SPECIALIST: Well, I`ll tell you, Nancy, three important elements of this case were brought up on your program tonight. One you brought up.

The key of this case may be in his computer, and it`ll take one image. Secondly, Jean brought up, if the police could get enough evidence in those computers to bring this up to a level of distribution, he`s going to triple, in reference to the problems.

And very importantly, one of your callers brought up, the financial transactions that may be on that computer. That`s very important, because that will lead police to the tourism issue. The fact that maybe he traded for money information and pictures with other individuals.

So the police are going to be looking at all of this. And as I`ve said so often, there are electronic footprints from his computer to everyone else`s computer that he communicated with. And you can bet your bottom dollar the police are going to follow those footprints."

 

Thanks for posting that, Joe.

But it will be DA Lacy, not the police, who will be looking into this, right?

 

Good question! I assumed it would be California authorities, but maybe it's more a FBI case with the international emailing and money transfers. Surely there is probable cause, but I'm no lawyer.

 

Never looked at it that way before......Good point

 

Yeah, just like Nicole's killer would have killed again. Hmmmmm.....

Heymom

 

I've been wondering myself why Ollie Gray and San Augustin would knowingly not do anything to find his identity, stop him OR report it to the D.A.-- who end up going bezerk over one little girl in Thailand's safety. What about all the other kids he came in contact with over 4 years?

 

Demonizing Karr

I'm with Ginja. I wouldn't want this creep anywhere near my kids---but I don't believe he molested hundreds of girls either (as Wendy Hutchens claimed on Nancy Grace).

Nancy Grace has been demonizing Karr ever since the DA decided not to file charges. Grace has taken this personally---since they couldn't get him for JonBenet's murder, let's see what else they can get him on besides having kiddie porn on his computer.

The e-mails and telephone calls have been played repeatedly on Nancy Grace, and all they show is a very sick, delusional man. But making up crazy stuff is a far cry from actually doing it.

For all intents and purposes, the guy has no life now, even if by some miracle he gets better. No one is ever going to hire him. His life is ruined. That seems to be the purpose of Nancy Grace's tirades lately.

And when they do go over the computer Karr had in Thailand, I'd like to know why Tracey was e-mailing him for FOUR years--and just decided this past May to alert the BDA.

 

EXACTLY! I rest my case.

Seriously, I think everyone's missing the point on this one. JMK didn't kill JonBenet, he didn't know Polly Klass, and he sure as hell didn't pick up little girls and take them for rides in his car.

HE'S DELUSIONAL.

He's made everything up.

Why?

Because it let's Lacy and the BDA off the hook!!!

Just like they threw out false stories about the BPD's investigation, they're now throwing out and allowing false stories on Karr because without it, they have a helluvalot more on their faces than egg!

There was NO need to go after him in Bankok. He was Bankok's problem!!!

They were able to get DNA from him over there. They didn't have to bring him back to this country, to stalk and molest little American girls!

What's wrong with this freakin' DA? Oh, we know of this real sex pervert pedophile over in Thailand. We should bring him back to this country so he can go after our little girls...save Thailand!

Everyone's out to demonize Karr, when the real culprits in this ENTIRE investigation has been the Boulder District Attorney's Office. They lied about the BPD, and they lied about John Mark Karr.

Why isn't anybody listening?

 

"I'm not trying to defend the guy. I'm just wondering where the proof is that he's as dangerous as he thinks he is. He's a sick man, for sure. But there's a difference in sicknesses where otoh, he's delusional and says he stalks and hurts little girls compared to where he actually does stalks and hurts the little girls. I've seen no proof of the latter."

Ginj, I agree with all that you've said here. Karr has no victims...YET. What is so dangerous about him though is that with the intensity of his delusions, any shrink will tell you it's just a matter of time before he acts out on them. He needs to be off the street where he can't and under some very serious mental health care, probably for the rest of his life.

I'm also very concerned that Karr was undergoing hormone therapy in preparation for his transgender surgery. If that is the case, his hormones are all screwed up which could be contributing to his delusions and behaviors. Clearly he won't continue any hormone therapy but that too further exacerbates his hormone levels which affects his cognitive, emotional and behavioral issues.

All of the crap, including the computer, that Karr brought with him from Thailand, will be turned over to Sonoma County authorities who are the only ones at this point who have any jurisdiction. They will probably call in the FBI again to work with them in checking all that stuff out. If there is any criminal activity it will be handled jointly. Sonoma County only has control over alleged crimes that are committed in their jurisdiction and we know thanks to Harmon and vanZandt that whatever contraband was on Karr's CA computer, it had already been deleted by the time the computer was confiscated. However, if Karr's Thai computer has porn or other contraband under American law, that will become the jurisdiction of the FBI and he will be prosecuted separately from the Sonoma County charges in a federal court. While I don't advocate any violation of Karr's civil rights, I do hope they find other stuff to prosecute him on because I honestly believe this man needs to be removed from society where he poses no further danger to anyone.

Remember, even Ted Bundy had no victims before his first kill. To think that means Bundy wasn't a danger to society just cuz he had no victims yet is clearly faulty thinking. Karr is a sexual time bomb and fortunately, he has entered the legal system before he creates his first victim and he needs to stay there.

 

He sure looked feminine to me! Skinny, no facial hair, looked like he was developing a chest. Even the way he moved, walked, let people touch him was much more girlish than the man he used to be (in home movies). I told my hubby that people were wondering about a sex change op. to come and that I thought that might be the case. :unreal: Ick.

Heymom

 

For what it's worth, on 8/23, I dared to suggest almost the same thing as Deja Nu:

I must, of course put in my disclaimer that we, the public don't know everything yet, but at that date and space in time, I thought he was also more delusional than anything else

 

I agree LIMAMA. Wouldn't it be strange if they found kiddie porn on MT's computer?

I'd like to see what really went on between Tracy and Karr.

 

I wonder if the contents of Karr's computer will ever be revealed? I definitely don't think he molested hundreds but I won't be surprised to learn that he's molested children...he gives me the creeps.

 

The jury is still out on Karr as far as I'm concerned. I lean heavily to Ginja's stance, however.

From the beginning, I have pointed out that, while clearly mentally ill, I haven't seen proof that he was a pedophile (pedophile in the sense of having actually laid hands on children). My bi.tch then, and now, is that reporters are treating OPINION as FACT! Just as the posted comments above (from NG & others "experts) illustrate, assumptions are treated almost as FACT ... Like the assumed child porn and contacts being on Karr's Thailand computer. Thus far, there is NOTHING to indicate that any of that is true ... yet it's being treated as FACT.

I think that many of us here are buying into the misinformation being presented by the media ... possibly even incuiding Deja Nu. It's a full time job trying to separate the fact from TheMedia hype, and I don't blame anyone for falling into the trap. We are being INUNDATED with assumptions posing as fact. We are being manipulated by a DISGRACEFUL MEDIA.

And I need to disagree with Deja on one point ... that "experts" will tell you that it's only a matter of time before Karr WILL act out his fantasies. I do NOT believe that that assumption is necessarily true. True ... I'm no expert on psychology. But I DO know that not all sickos are alike. I have to assume that certain pedophiles "types" are prone to acting out, and others never will. I do NOT pretend to know what category Karr falls into, but I DO know that we don't have enough facts to make that determination.

BobC's left nut is NOT on the line here ... but if someone held a gun to my head and made me bet one way or the other, I would BET that there is little, if ANY child porn on Karr's computer. In fact, he seems to be far more interested in portraying himself as a perv TO ADULTS than he is to children (based on facts available thus far). He's trying to SHOCK ... to shock ADULTS! I don't know whether there is a specific psychiatric category for that type of behavior, or not ... but I'm guessing that there is.

In the conversations that I've seen and heard, it always seems as though Karr is making things up as he goes along. It's NOT like he's reliving fantasies that he's had over and over ... and to me that is telling. Again, his INTENTION seems to be to shock whatever adult he is talking to. That makes him scary as PHUK to moi ... but I'm still NOT convinced that that qualifies him as a pedophile or a dangerous person.

As I say, my mind is NOT made up on this. As the chaff is separated from the facts, I will adjust my opinion accordingly. But so far, I have little to go on.

Our MEDIA is a disgrace ... THAT MUCH I KNOW!


...YumYum

 

"I think that many of us here are buying into the misinformation being presented by the media ... possibly even incuiding Deja Nu. It's a full time job trying to separate the fact from TheMedia hype, and I don't blame anyone for falling into the trap. We are being INUNDATED with assumptions posing as fact. We are being manipulated by a DISGRACEFUL MEDIA. And I need to disagree with Deja on one point ... that "experts" will tell you that it's only a matter of time before Karr WILL act out his fantasies. I do NOT believe that that assumption is necessarily true. True ... I'm no expert on psychology. But I DO know that not all sickos are alike. I have to assume that certain pedophiles "types" are prone to acting out, and others never will. I do NOT pretend to know what category Karr falls into, but I DO know that we don't have enough facts to make that determination."

Deja's not that easily duped. I have a masters in forensic psych and agree with Steve Pitt and that Ablow guy on Crier. Barbara, I believe Karr was initally attracted to young teenagers because he himself was stuck at that psychoemotional stage. But Karr experienced parenthood which has a profoundly maturing effect and so his pedophiliac attractions changed to much younger girls.

As we discussed on another thread, Yum, a pedophile is not just defined by his victims or lack thereof. All pedophiles act out eventually because one of the hallmarks of a sexual dysfunction is the inability to control it. When is the issue, not if. The DSM is the bible of psychology and psychiatry so I'll let it speak for itself on the subject.

DSM-IV Criteria for Pedophilia

•Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors involving sexual activity with a pre-pubescent child or children (generally age 13 or younger).

•The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupation, or other important areas of functioning.

•The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A. Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old.

Pedophilia is categorized in the DSM-IV as one of several paraphiliac mental disorders. The essential features of a paraphilia (sexual deviation) are recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors that generally involve nonhuman subjects, the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner, or children or other nonconsenting persons.

Pedophilia generally is treated with cognitive-behavior therapy. The therapy may be prescribed alone or in combination with medication. Some examples of medication which have been used include Anti-androgens and selective seratonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) But unlike the successful treatment for most other mental illnesses, the outlook for successful treatment and rehabilitation of individuals with pedophilia is guarded. Even after intensive treatment, the course of disorder usually is chronic and lifelong in most patients, according to DSM-IV, which is the reason that most treatment programs emphasize a relapse-prevention model. However, both the fantasies and the behaviors often lessen with advancing age in adults.

http://www.medem.com/MedLB/article_detaillb.cfm?article_ID=ZZZUZRUZGLC&sub_cat=355

 

Deja ...

I have added numbers to the three criteria for reference purposes.

I read the above to mean that a person must meet ALL THREE of these criteria, at a minimum, to be classified as a pedophile.

1. "... intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors involving sexual activity with a pre-pubescent child or children (generally age 13 or younger)." Here I question the sexual arousal aspect. Claiming sexual arousal, as Karr HAS done, is different from actual sexual arousal. Thus far (even with Ablows interviews with the former 13 year old wife), we have no proof of such sexual arousal ... only claims TO ADULTS that he was sexually aroused. To our knowledge, not a single person has come forth with even a SUSPICION that a child was victimized OR that Karr ever seemed sexually aroused by young girls. In fact, the concerns at schools and elsewhere was that he was too controlling ... too tough a disciplinarian. That strikes me as a different animal altogether.

I remain OPEN to the possibility that Karr was indeed aroused sexually by young girls, but until he has been examined professionally (or victims come forth), I have to withhold judgement. Strike one.


2. "The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupation, or other important areas of functioning." Karr has lost jobs, marriages, and was run out of the country. But why?

... certainly, his particular form of mental illness played a role in his dysfunction within society and family ... but was it pedophilia or something else. As I mention, both of his marriages, and some workplace failures indicate that his controlling behaviour seemed to be key factors, NOT (to our knowledge) something of a sexual nature. Soooo ... lacking further evidence, I can't make the leap that it was pedophilia that played a role in his "distress or impairment" in these areas. Strike two.


3. Since the two previous criteria haven't been shown to be true, this third point becomes mute. I would point out the "NOTE" ... "Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old." Karr married a 13 year old when he was 19. Most would agree that many 19 year olds ARE "in late adolescence" ... and i think that Karr surely qualifies in that respect. And his 2nd marriage to the 16 year old falls outside the realm of the above criteria, so that is a mute issue in this thumbnail diagnosis.


In short, we simply don't have ANYTHING other than Karrs CLAIMS of sexual arousal ... yet.

And Deja ... you make an excellent point when you say, "... Karr experienced parenthood which has a profoundly maturing effect and so his pedophiliac attractions changed ...". Interesting insight. But isn't it possible that the change could have resulted in Karr becoming less attracted to children? I would point to criticisms of Karr being a harsh disciplinarian in school and home settings (and the seeming LACK of sexual behavior toward children).


Again ... I don't see anything in Karr's phone conversations, and statements caught on TV which have the ring of truth. He doesn't seem to be "recalling" sexually arousing fantasies. Instead, he seems to be making them up as he goes along ... in his discussions with ADULTS. "LOOK AT ME!!!"

To me, he seems to be trying to shock adults. Just as he CLAIMS involvement in JonBenet's death (obviously false), his claims of being sexually aroused by children may be equally false. That would seem to be a totally different animal than your garden variety pedophile.


At this point, we don't know the nature of the five images found on Karr's computer. Were they remnants of some investigation into the various child murder cases that he was interested in? We don't know. They may well have been used for his own personal sexual arousal ... but we don't know that. One might think that there would have been far MORE than five images if that were the case. At the same time, i believe that ALL of us who have researched this case in depth have stumbled across images which are ILLEGAL. That does NOT make any or ALL of us pedophiles.


Since I am not yet convinced (yet) that Karr is a pedophile, I will address this final issue in a general sense. Deja said, "All pedophiles act out eventually because one of the hallmarks of a sexual dysfunction is the inability to control it. When is the issue, not if".

I see nothing in the DSM-IV suggesting that that is the case. It sounds like political rhetoric to moi. Ceratinly, the risk may be GREAT that pedophiles will eventually act out their fantasies. After all, if (as you say) pedophillia is DEFINED as an uncontrollable urge, then it follows that pedophiles MUST (by definition) eventually act out. Yet in Karr's case, he seemingly HAS been able to "control" such urges (IF he has them). Clearly, if Karr IS a pedophile, then he has at least some CONTROL over his urges. No?


I'm NOT here to defend Karr (or pedophiles). I'm just looking for a legitimate diagnosis of his illness ... a diagnosis that I can hang my hat on. And Media coverage has GROSSLY mishandled the information available and painted a portrait of Karr to the public which is hideously distorted. In that regard, even IF Karr is professionally examined and diagnosed as something other than Karr being a pedophile, HUGE parts of the general public will continue to believe that he IS a pedophile based upon the outrageous behavior of TheMedia.

Moi? I'll await information that I can trust ... preferrably professional examination and diagnosis.


Let me assure you, Deja ... my difference of opinion doesn't lessen my tremendous respect for you. I simply need more info before I'll buy a ticket on the "Karr is a pedophile bandwagon".



...YumYum

 

Not that I trust anything the media says especially when it comes to the Ramsey case but one has to accept the fact there is enough evidence out there that Karr was hanging around young children (unless his whole resume is a lie) to presume he was at least fixated on them and let's face it, based on what we do know about him he appears to fit the mold. Allegedly (again, we are trusting the media and the DA from the Republic of Boulder), there is a court order preventing him from being alone with his own children - why? I'm with Deja Nu on this one.