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  1. #13

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    "Panties" is a dirty word? How about "jockey shorts"? "Boxers"? My mother-in-law...who is what we call "old timey"...calls panties her "step-ins"...I love that.

    OK, I'll play catch up all day. But off the top of my head, Jayelles, I think you've just proven that there was something more going on with those size 12 panties than Patsy's numerous versions of the tale. JonBenet could NOT have gotten that package open without cutting the plastic string. How Patsy could have pulled off JonBenet's black velvet pants that night without pulling the panties off with them, since JonBenet WAS lying down, asleep, the Ramseys claim, is also a mystery. Why Patsy would put them BACK ON with the white long johns, instead of a proper, clean pair, is also a question I have, especially considering they were going to be traveling the next day. Add in that Patsy also claimed in 2000 that she didn't remember a thing about any of this size 12 "panty" stuff...and I think we have another Ramsey whopper, fashioned to cover up why JonBenet had those way too large panties on when found murdered and molested.

    I'm sure y'all have lots of ideas, so let me read the thread. I'm thinking it had to do with needing "Wednesday" on the panties. Maybe because JonBenet used the toilet at the Whites, probably with others around, maybe the kids, or an adult who might have seen them on her.

    You see, I STILL want to know if those Wednesday panties that FIT JonBenet were ever found by LE. I don't think we know the answer to that, do we?

    Could it have been they had blood in them? That might have been the trigger. Or it could have been she wet them. I doubt we'll ever know.
    Last edited by Cherokee; May 29, 2012, 12:31 am at Tue May 29 0:31:27 UTC 2012.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  2. #14

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    The "Wednesday" panties may indeed be important. If the Ramseys were claiming that JonBenet wasn't awake after they got home, then it wouldn't 'do' to have her found in something other than the Wednesday panties ... IF there were witnesses to her Wednesday panties.

    The key is whether or not there WERE witnesses. Sure would be nice to talk to Fleet and Priscilla and their daughter about this. So, what possible circumstance would cause JonBenet's panties to be seen by others if she was wearing pants? Consider ... a six year old MIGHT proudly show her friends a new pair of panties with Wednesday printed on them. At six, that would be no big deal. Were the panties "new" ... like a Christmas gift? (I forget the Whites' daughter's name - Daphne? - and age) ... Would JonBenet show her the new panties she got for Christmas?


    ...YumYum

  3. #15
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    Hornetsville, NY
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    As the mother of three daughters, I vividly remember carrying them to their beds from time to time after they had fallen asleep. Sometimes they were already dressed for bed and had just drifted off watching TV or something. Other times they fell asleep in the car, and we carried them in to bed.

    I can honestly say that in those instances when they were still dressed in their day clothes, unless their clothing was too restrictive (a frilly blouse, a dress), I wouldn't even bother undressing them. Usually they were dressed in comfortable, soft pants and shirts in the winter time, or shorts and light shirts in the summer. If their clothing was too restrictive for comfortable sleep, I'd remove it and let them sleep in their undershirts and panties. My kids were never bedwetters, so I didn't have to worry about that.

    I can also state emphatically that if I undressed one of my daughters at that age and found that she was wearing panties that didn't fit her, those panties would have come off, because there is no way she would have been comfortable with them twisting from hither to yon as she turned over in bed, if they even would stay on her. And, no daughter of mine would ever have tolerated wearing panties that didn't fit, even if they could have gotten away with it, which they wouldn't have, because I paid attention to what they wore.

    I would also never buy panties as a gift for anyone else's child, as Patsy claimed she did. I do not believe JB wanted those panties for herself, except possibly as a cover up for the pull ups.

    There's that phrase, again - cover up. Seems to fit a lot of things in this case.
    Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
    the philosophy which does not laugh,
    and the greatness which does not bow before children.

    ---Kahlil Gibran---

  4. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by YumYum012

    The key is whether or not there WERE witnesses. Sure would be nice to talk to Fleet and Priscilla and their daughter about this. So, what possible circumstance would cause JonBenet's panties to be seen by others if she was wearing pants? Consider ... a six year old MIGHT proudly show her friends a new pair of panties with Wednesday printed on them. At six, that would be no big deal. Were the panties "new" ... like a Christmas gift? (I forget the Whites' daughter's name - Daphne? - and age) ... Would JonBenet show her the new panties she got for Christmas?


    ...YumYum
    According to information in a couple of the books about this case, adults would often have to assist JB when she went to the bathroom. They could have seen her underwear, then.

    That's another thing I never quite understood. At six years old, my kids knew how to clean themselves after they went to the bathroom. They didn't need help from adults. Patsy seemed really negligent in her duties as a mother in teaching her kids the fundamentals of hygiene and the proper things to wear. Why would any parent let their little kids wear clothing that doesn't fit them properly? By her own admission, Patsy didn't know when her kids took showers/baths, didn't know what size underwear her daughter put on for a Xmas party, didn't know the last time JB's fingernails were cleaned. IOW, she admitted to being a dunce at best and a negligent mother at worst. It's like Patsy went around in a fog all the time when it came to her kids.
    Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
    the philosophy which does not laugh,
    and the greatness which does not bow before children.

    ---Kahlil Gibran---

  5. #17
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    New York, NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldkase
    JonBenet could NOT have gotten that package open without cutting the plastic string.
    Hmmm. Hmmm. You might have stumbled on the reason the grapefruit knife was supposedly found on a counter outside JonBenet's bedroom. Several scenarios present themselves. Since it was easy for JonBenet to reach the drawers that kitchen implements were stored in, she might have gone down to the kitchen, gotten the serrated knife out, popped up to her bedroom, got the underwear package, sawed the string apart, and as was her habit, then left the knife when she was done using it. Alternately, Patsy might have done the same thing, and may have had motive to distance herself from the knife's use as a way of planting suspicion that it was yet more proof of intruder presence. I know that, on many occasions, I have used the sawtooth edges of my keys to break a plastic string when scissors were not right at hand.

  6. #18
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    "Panties" is a dirty word? How about "jockey shorts"? "Boxers"? My mother-in-law...who is what we call "old timey"...calls panties her "step-ins"...I love that.

    My kids always called them "unders." I have no idea where that came from.
    Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry,
    the philosophy which does not laugh,
    and the greatness which does not bow before children.

    ---Kahlil Gibran---

  7. #19
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    I'm trying an experiment with my scanner. Page 48 NE Police files. It may be too large (?). If so, I'll delete it. If these are too large Moab, please let me know.
    I tried to reduce to 25% Moab, and it still remained the same (?).
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  8. #20
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    Page 49 NE Police Files
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    elle: The RST can't handle the truth!
    Just my opinion.

  9. #21

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    Here is a link to Patsy's 2000 Atlanta interview with Kane and Boulder LE, when she is questioned in depth about the KNICKERS. Wood is constantly interrupting and arguing, wasting valuable time, but more importantly, giving Patsy cues about her answers. You'll notice she gets into trouble early on, jumps to "we" rather than "I". She obfuscates, doesn't remember, and equivocates on the simplest of details, like how her 12 year old niece would have been larger than JonBenet, and of course, when JonBenet took a bath that day, changed her clothes, habits, etc. Patsy is very slippery, and Wood makes sure of it. He makes the most ridiculous arguments--so long, I'm going to edit them to remain focused on Patsy's answers.

    http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/20...w-Complete.htm




    8 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Ms. Ramsey, we

    9 are going to move on to another area. And

    10 what I want to discuss with you is the

    11 underpants that JonBenet was wearing at the

    12 time that she was discovered on the 26th.

    13 We are going to try to get some background

    14 information on those from you. Hopefully you

    15 can help us out a little bit. Okay?

    16 I don't, I'll be perfectly honest

    17 with you, I don't follow all of the media

    18 developments in this case, so I am not quite

    19 sure what is out in the public sector. But

    20 what I would like to get a feel for is just

    21 what your belief is with regard to the

    22 significance of the underpants that your

    23 daughter was wearing at the time that she

    24 was found murdered.

    [snip]

    18 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Well, let's start

    19 with what - I will make it very simple for

    20 you, Mrs. Ramsey. What information are you

    21 in possession of or what do you know about

    22 the underwear that your daughter was wearing

    23 at the time she was found murdered?

    24 A. I have heard that she had on a

    25 pair of Bloomi's that said Wednesday on them.

    0078

    1 Q. The underwear that she was

    2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you

    3 know where they come from as far as what

    4 store?

    5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.

    6 Q. Who purchased those?

    7 A. I did.

    8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased

    9 them?

    10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.

    11 Q. In the fall of 1996, how many

    12 trips did you make to New York?

    13 A. Two, I believe.

    14 Q. Do you recall, and again, the

    15 same, same qualification I gave you when we

    16 started, which is, I understand that you are

    17 not going to give me exact dates, but the

    18 two trips you made, did you make those with

    19 different groups of people?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. The first trip, who was that trip

    22 with?

    23 A. The first trip was a

    24 mother-daughter trip with my mother Nedra

    25 Paugh, my sister Pam Paugh, friends Susan

    0079

    1 Flanders from Charlevoix, Michigan, and her

    2 daughter and a friend of Susan's, Ms.

    3 Kirkpatrick I believe was her name, and her

    4 daughter, and JonBenet and myself.

    5 Q. And the second trip you made was?

    6 A. The second trip we made was with

    7 Glen and Susan Stein.

    8 Q. Is that the trip -- which trip

    9 was the November trip?

    10 A. With the children.

    11 Q. Was that -- that is the first

    12 trip?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And the second trip that you and

    15 your husband and the Steins took, was that

    16 also November, but later in the month, or

    17 was that a December trip?

    18 A. I think it was December.

    19 Q. And maybe this will help jog your

    20 memory as to time. I believe that was the

    21 time of the Christmas parade in Boulder.

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Is that correct?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Were you out of town?

    0080

    1 A. I remember that.

    2 Q. Which of those two trips did you

    3 purchase the Bloomi's?

    4 A. The first trip.

    5 Q. Was it something that was selected

    6 by JonBenet?

    7 A. I believe so.

    8 Q. Was it your intention, when you

    9 purchased those, for those to be for her,

    10 not for some third party as a gift?

    11 A. I bought some things that were

    12 gifts and some things for her. So I

    13 don't --

    14 Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is

    15 your best recollection that the purchase of

    16 the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the

    17 week, was something that you bought for her,

    18 whether it was just I am buying underwear

    19 for my kids or these are special, here's a

    20 present, that doesn't matter, but it was your

    21 intention that she would wear those?

    22 A. Well, I think that I bought a

    23 package of the -- they came in a package of

    24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.

    25 I think I bought a package to give to my

    0081

    1 niece.

    2 Q. Which niece was that?

    3 A. Jenny Davis.

    4 Q. They came in, if you recall, do

    5 you remember that they come in kind of a

    6 plastic see-through plastic container.

    7 A. Right.

    8 Q. They are rolled up?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. So if I understand you correctly,

    11 you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your

    12 niece, and one for JonBenet?

    13 A. I am not sure if I bought one or

    14 two.

    15 Q. Do you remember what size they

    16 were?

    17 A. Not exactly.

    18 Q. JonBenet was found wearing the

    19 Wednesday Bloomi's underpants, and your

    20 understanding is correct, that is a fact, you

    21 can accept that as a fact, when she was

    22 found murdered. Those underpants do not fit

    23 her. Were you aware of that?

    24 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that

    25 as a matter of fact --

    0082

    1 MR. LEVIN: I'm stating that as a

    2 matter --

    3 MR. WOOD: - for a six-year-old

    4 child?

    5 MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as

    6 a matter of fact.

    7 MR. WOOD: Don't fit her

    8 according to whose standard?

    9 MR. LEVIN: By --

    10 MR. WOOD: I mean, I have got an

    11 11-year-old boy, and he wears underwear that

    12 potentially hangs down to his knees, Bruce.

    13 I mean, I don't know how you can come up

    14 with that as a fact. That sounds to me

    15 like more of an opinion. Who states that as

    16 fact?

    17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Ms. Ramsey, your

    18 daughter weighed, I believe, 45 pounds;

    19 correct?

    20 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

    21 Q. She was six years old?

    22 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

    23 Q. What size underpants would you

    24 normally buy for her?

    25 A. 8 to 10.

    0083

    1 Q. Ms. Ramsey, would you say that it

    2 would, it is safe to assume that, if she is

    3 wearing underpants designed for someone who

    4 weighs 85 pounds, who is 10 to 12 years old,

    5 that those would not fit her?

    6 A. Those -- I mean, I am sure she

    7 could wear them, yes, but they wouldn't fit

    8 as well as a smaller pair.

    9 Q. And as a mother, you would know

    10 that someone who is 85 pounds is

    11 significantly larger than your little

    12 six-year-old?

    13 MR. WOOD: Can't we assume that

    14 as a matter of 85 is more than 45 without

    15 her having to document a mathematical fact,

    16 Bruce?

    17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) 40 pounds is the

    18 wrong size pair of underpants, would you

    19 agree?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Okay. What we are trying to

    22 understand is whether -- we are trying to

    23 understand why she is wearing such a large

    24 pair of underpants. We are hoping you can

    25 help us if you have a recollection of it.

    0084

    1 A. I am sure that I put the package

    2 of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened

    3 them and put them on.

    4 Q. Do you know if -- you bought

    5 these sometime in mid to early December, is

    6 that correct, as far as -- no, I am sorry,

    7 you bought them in November?

    8 A. Right.

    9 Q. Do you recall, was she wearing

    10 these? And I don't mean this specific day

    11 of the week, but was she wearing, were you

    12 aware of the fact that she, you know, was in

    13 this package of underpants and had been

    14 wearing them since the trip to New York in

    15 November?

    16 A. I don't remember.

    17 Q. Ms. Hoffman Pugh generally did the

    18 laundry for the family, that is part of her

    19 duties; is that correct?

    20 A. Correct.

    21 Q. Exclusively, or did you wash

    22 clothes on occasion?

    23 A. I washed a lot of clothes.

    24 Q. Do you have any recollection of

    25 ever washing any of the Bloomi panties?

    0085

    1 A. Not specifically.

    2 Q. Was it something that, the fact

    3 that she is wearing these underpants designed

    4 for an 85-pound person, did you ever -- and

    5 I will give you a minute to think about it

    6 because I know it is tough to try to pin

    7 down a couple of months of casual

    8 conversation -- do you recall ever having any

    9 conversations with her concerning the fact

    10 that she is wearing underwear that is just

    11 too large for her?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Knowing yourself as you do, if it

    14 was, if it had caught your attention or came

    15 to your attention, do you think you might

    16 have said, JonBenet, you should, those don't

    17 fit, put something on that fits, that is

    18 inappropriate? Do you think, if it came,

    19 had come to your attention --

    20 A. Well, obviously we, you know, the

    21 package had been opened, we made the

    22 decision, you know, oh, just go ahead and

    23 use them because, you know, we weren't going

    24 to give them to Jenny after all, I guess,

    25 so.

    0086

    1 I mean, if you have ever seen

    2 these little panties, there is not too much

    3 difference in the size. So, you know, I'm

    4 sure even if they were a little bit big,

    5 they were special because we got them up

    6 there, she wanted to wear them, and they

    7 didn't fall down around her ankles, that was

    8 fine with me.

    9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see

    10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?

    11 THE WITNESS: No.

    12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically

    13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?

    14 And I am not saying --

    15 THE WITNESS: They were just in

    16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I

    17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all

    18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can

    19 help herself to whatever is in there.

    20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not

    21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to

    22 Jenny.

    23 THE WITNESS: Right.

    24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in

    25 JonBenet's bathroom?

    0087

    1 A. Right.

    2 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm

    3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then

    4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet

    5 express an interest in them; therefore, you

    6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --

    7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I

    8 think I bought them with the intention of

    9 sending them in a package of Christmas things

    10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that

    11 together, so I just put them in her, her

    12 panty drawer. So they were free game.

    13 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) At the time,

    14 how old was Jenny?

    15 A. I don't know. Probably -- I

    16 don't know. She is older than JonBenet, but

    17 I don't know exactly how old she was.

    18 Q. Would these panties, size wise, be

    19 more appropriate for -- is she an older

    20 girl?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And I assume a larger girl?

    23 A. Well, at that time, no, not -- I

    24 mean, she is not -- I mean, today she is a

    25 young woman, but then she was a little girl.

    0088

    1 Q. How old is she now?

    2 A. She is now 15, I believe.

    3 Q. So she would have been about 12

    4 or somewhere --

    5 A. 11.

    6 Q. -- 11, 12?

    7 A. Yeah.

    8 Q. And based on the, I guess,

    9 dimensions that Mr. Levin has talked about,

    10 these would have been a size appropriate for

    11 her?

    12 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

    13 MR. WOOD: Do you know that?

    14 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Based on your

    15 knowledge of her? I mean, I never have seen

    16 this girl, so --

    17 MR. WOOD: Guys, I think -- if

    18 you all have kids, I mean, I just think you

    19 are making assumptions based on poundage,

    20 apparently, that isn't necessarily, you know,

    21 in touch with the realities with kids and

    22 their clothes. But you know, if you know

    23 that, Patsy, please tell them.

    24 Why don't you go ahead and

    25 restate your question.

    0089

    1 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) You purchased

    2 these specifically for a person?

    3 A. Okay.

    4 MR. WOOD: Is that your

    5 recollection?

    6 THE WITNESS: Yes.

    7 MR. WOOD: Okay.

    8 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And I assume

    9 you wanted them to fit her and she be able

    10 to wear them or there would be no sense in

    11 purchasing them; right?

    12 A. Right.

    13 Q. Okay. Would the size that has

    14 been described here be appropriate for the

    15 size of the girl you purchased them for?

    16 A. I was guessing at her size, so I

    17 had hoped that they would be.

    18 Q. Now, we have talked -- you know,

    19 the fact that a boy may wear boxer shorts

    20 that go down to his ankles --

    21 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

    22 Q. --has nothing to do with girls,

    23 when you purchase girl's panties; right?

    24 MR. WOOD: Come on, Mitch.

    25 Mitch --

    0090

    1 THE WITNESS: I mean, if --

    2 MR. WOOD: Don't answer that.

    3 That's not a --

    4 MR. MORRISSEY: It is different.

    5 MR. WOOD: I made the statement

    6 because of my kids, but let me just tell

    7 you, my nine-year-old daughter likes to wear

    8 my XL T-shirts. I mean, you are asking now

    9 about the realm of kids, and I don't think

    10 that is a factual question that she is

    11 really here to give you information about.

    12 MR. MORRISSEY: Mrs. Ramsey, I

    13 never purchased a pair of girl's panties.

    14 Okay.

    15 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) What do you

    16 do, I mean, when you do that, what do you

    17 think about as far as the person you're

    18 purchasing them for?

    19 A. Well, you just look, small,

    20 medium, large, you know, and you pick the

    21 one you think would most likely fit.

    22 Q. And do they have age groups or

    23 are they suggested for like a 10-year-old

    24 through a 12-year-old or a 13-year-old

    25 through a 15-year-old? Do they do it that

    0091

    1 way too?

    2 A. I never paid any attention if

    3 they do.

    4 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay.

    5 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Let me ask it

    6 this way. Did you say you bought more than

    7 one set of Bloomi's?

    8 A. I can't remember.

    9 Q. You bought some for JonBenet?

    10 A. I can't remember.

    11 Q. Why is it that you remember

    12 buying Bloomingdale's panties in November of

    13 1996?

    14 A. Because --

    15 MR. WOOD: Because she remembers

    16 it. I mean --

    17 MR. KANE: Wait a second, Lin.

    18 Would you please let her answer the question?

    19 It is a simple question.

    20 MR. WOOD: Why is it that you

    21 remember something?

    22 MR. KANE: Yes, why do you

    23 remember --

    24 MR. WOOD: Because she remembered.

    25 Q. (By Mr. Kane) - that, that

    0092

    1 detail?

    2 A. Well, for starters, it has been

    3 made such a big detail.

    4 Q. Okay, well, that is my question.

    5 A. I remember that I -- and I, you

    6 know, we were kind of shopping around, and

    7 it was close to Christmas season, so we

    8 might pick up a little souvenir. I

    9 bought -- I think I picked up a little

    10 something for a baby-sitter, you know.

    11 Q. Where was it that you became

    12 aware that this was -- where was it that it

    13 was made a big deal? What was the source

    14 of your information that Bloomingdale's

    15 panties somehow were significant that made

    16 you then say, wait a second, did I ever buy

    17 those?

    18 MR. WOOD: Do you have a precise

    19 recollection of that event occurring where

    20 all of a sudden something happened and you

    21 decided it was some big deal?

    22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I

    23 mean, my first thought is something in the

    24 tabloids, but, you know, they get everything

    25 wrong, so --

    0093

    1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you

    2 aware that these were the size of panties

    3 that she was wearing, and this has been

    4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they

    5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of

    6 that?

    7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.

    8 Q. And how did you become aware of

    9 that?

    10 A. Something I read, I am sure.

    11 Q. And I will just state a fact

    12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties

    13 taken out of, by the police, out of

    14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is

    15 that where she kept -

    16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

    17 Q. -- where you were describing that

    18 they were just put in that drawer?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was

    21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?

    22 Would that have been about the size pair of

    23 panties that she wore when she was six years

    24 old?

    25 A. I would say more like six to

    0094

    1 eight. There were probably some in there

    2 that were too small.

    3 Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?

    4 A. Not typically, no.

    5 MR. KANE: Okay.

    6 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And you

    7 understand the reason we are asking this, we

    8 want to make sure that this intruder did not

    9 bring these panties with him, this was

    10 something --

    11 A. Right.

    12 Q. - that was in the house.

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. And we are clear that, as far as

    15 you know, that is something that was in this

    16 house?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. -- that belonged to your daughter,

    19 these panties?

    20 A. Correct.

    21 Q. (By Ms. Harmer) Mrs. Ramsey,

    22 have you ever seen a crime scene photo of

    23 the underwear that your daughter was found

    24 in?

    25 A. No.

    0095

    1 Q. Did Lou Schmidt ever show you a

    2 photo?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. (By Mr. Kane) I want to follow

    5 up with something you said earlier. You

    6 said she would have just gone in and gotten

    7 a pair herself?

    8 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

    9 Q. Okay. Was she -- did she usually

    10 dress herself?

    11 A. She was pretty much able to dress

    12 herself.

    13 Q. And I can't recall if you've

    14 ever, and forgive me if you have answered

    15 this before, but did she have a bath that

    16 day, Christmas Day?

    17 MR. WOOD: You have asked that

    18 before, several times.

    19 Q. (By Mr. Kane) What was the

    20 answer? Can you refresh my memory?

    21 MR. WOOD: You know that I'm sure

    22 better than I do.

    23 MR. KANE: Oh, come on, Lin, I

    24 was just asking a question so that I can

    25 follow up on the thing. If you are going

    0096

    1 to start getting into you asked that one

    2 time, I just don't have a recollection of

    3 it.

    4 MR. WOOD: Sure I am. Calm

    5 down.

    6 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Did she have a

    7 bath that day?

    8 MR. WOOD: Excuse me one second,

    9 Patsy. Calm down, Michael. I am not trying

    10 to create a problem for you.

    11 MR. KANE: You certainly are.

    12 MR. WOOD: No, I am not.

    13 MR. KANE: You certainly are.

    [snip--very long argument between Kane and Wood here and Patsy does not answer the question.]

    12 MR. KANE: If that is your

    13 definition of what is fair, then that is

    14 fine. All right. You've made your record.

    15 I withdraw that question.

    16 MR. WOOD: I think it is very

    17 fair. I made my statement. It is not

    18 meant to be a record, necessarily.

    19 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Here's a question

    20 that was not asked, Mrs. Ramsey. Did you

    21 dress JonBenet Christmas Day?

    22 A. I can't remember.

    23 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mrs. Ramsey, do

    24 you know whether or not she changed her

    25 underwear Christmas Day?

    0103

    1 A. I don't know.

    2 Q. We are going to assume the fact

    3 that she did not take a bath because you

    4 previously stated that. Would she change her

    5 underwear if she didn't take a bath on

    6 Christmas Day?

    7 MR. WOOD: Excuse me. You

    8 remember that she has been asked that now.

    [snip--another petty argument from Wood, disrupting the interview]

    12 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Do you know if

    13 she changed her underwear?

    14 A. I do not know.

    15 Q. Would it be her routine habit or

    16 practice, if she is going out for dinner at

    17 friends, for her to change from head to toe,

    18 including her underwear, getting dressed to

    19 go out for the evening, even if she didn't

    20 take a bath?

    21 A. I don't know that there is any

    22 particular routine. She may have. I don't

    23 know.

    24 Q. If she listened to mom, would she

    25 have done that? I mean, we are going out,

    0105

    1 you change from head to toe, wash up?

    2 MR. WOOD: You are saying if she

    3 had said that?

    4 MR. LEVIN: No. I am saying,

    5 this child was raised by Mrs. Ramsey, and I

    6 am assuming that, in the course of your

    7 raising your child, that it was JonBenet, we

    8 are going out, even if she hadn't taken a

    9 bath, you wash up, you change your clothes,

    10 and that would include if she hasn't bathed,

    11 change your underwear because she is running

    12 around and playing all day.

    13 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that

    14 is what you do with your children?

    15 MR. LEVIN: No. I am asking

    16 her.

    17 THE WITNESS: I don't, I don't

    18 remember the course of events --

    19 MR. LEVIN: Okay.

    20 THE WITNESS: - really.

    21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) So you just don't

    22 know whether or not she changed her

    23 underpants?

    24 A. I don't know.

    25 Q. During the course of one of the

    0106

    1 prior interviews, I think it was '98, but I

    2 am not certain, you were asked and stated

    3 that, on occasion, she would leave her

    4 underclothes at a friend's house if they had

    5 gone swimming or gotten wet. Do you

    6 remember that?

    7 MR. WOOD: Hold on. Do you have

    8 a copy of that?

    9 MR. LEVIN: I don't have it right

    10 here.

    11 MR. WOOD: I mean, I asked you

    12 all to be able to produce those prior

    13 statements so we can look at it in context.

    [snip--another long, argumentative interruption by Wood]

    25 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Do you remember

    0110

    1 saying that during one of your interviews?

    2 A. Tell me what --

    3 Q. That on occasion JonBenet may go

    4 over to a friend's house, I think you talked

    5 about the White's daughter Daphne, and they

    6 could go swimming or do something and she

    7 might leave her underwear there, get a clean

    8 pair from a friend and then be laundered,

    9 returned, you would do the same for her

    10 girlfriends who may have been -- got wet

    11 from swimming or doing, got dirty playing

    12 outside. Do you recall saying that?

    13 A. Not specifically.

    14 Q. Do you recall that occurring then?

    15 A. Probably did. I can't say for

    16 sure, but --

    17 Q. Okay. What I am interested in is

    18 whether or not you have a recollection as to

    19 whether or not any of the Bloomi panties,

    20 and I certainly wouldn't want to pin you

    21 down to the day or the week, all right, but

    22 do you ever recall any of the Bloomi panties

    23 from November to the time of JonBenet's

    24 murder being left at a friend's house and

    25 then returned to you?

    0111

    1 A. No.

    2 Q. Do you recall any occasions where

    3 JonBenet had an accident at school and -- I

    4 know that they kept at her school like I

    5 think they do at most grammar schools, they

    6 have a box of like clean underpants if a kid

    7 has an accident at school, do you ever

    8 remember her getting to that situation and

    9 borrowing panties from the school and having

    10 to return them?

    11 A. No.

    12 Q. Okay. I am slightly confused,

    13 and I would like this clarified. When I

    14 first started to ask you about the purchase

    15 of the panties in November, I got the

    16 impression that you were somewhat unclear as

    17 to whether you bought two sets or one.

    18 In follow-up questions, I got the

    19 impression that you felt confident that you

    20 only bought one. Do you know?

    21 A. I really can't remember.

    22 Q. Do you recall that you did -- you

    23 never mailed this pair out to --

    24 A. Jenny, yes.

    25 Q. Okay. So if there was an

    0112

    1 unopened package, it would have been left in

    2 the house?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Mrs. Ramsey,

    5 prior to going to the Whites, did you see

    6 JonBenet in panties? In other words, were

    7 you at any point, prior to going to the

    8 Whites, in the process of her getting

    9 dressed, did you ever see if she was wearing

    10 panties?

    11 A. I mean, I just probably didn't

    12 notice. I would, she must have had them on

    13 or I would have certainly noticed if she

    14 didn't have any on.

    15 Q. When you came home and you got

    16 her ready for bed, did you notice if she was

    17 wearing panties? When you changed her out

    18 of the black velvet --

    19 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

    20 Q. - type pants --

    21 A. Right.

    22 Q. -- and into the long underwear

    23 pants --

    24 A. Uh-huh, right.

    25 Q. -- the White ones, did you notice

    0113

    1 if she had a pair of panties on?

    2 A. Yes, she did. I believe she did.

    3 Q. Why do you remember that? I

    4 mean, what do you remember? I just want to

    5 know what you remember about that.

    6 A. Well, I took the jeans off and

    7 put the long leggies on.

    8 Q. And you noticed that she had

    9 panties on in that process?

    10 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

    11 Q. You have to answer yes or no.

    12 A. Well, I noticed -- I mean,

    13 nothing was unusual. I mean, if she hadn't

    14 had panties on, it would have been unusual.

    15 So --

    16 Q. So there was nothing unusual

    17 there?

    18 A. Correct.

    19 Q. When you actually removed those --

    20 you have -- they are black velvet pants?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And did the panties come down

    23 with them when you removed those pants, if

    24 you remember?

    25 A. I don't remember.

    0114

    1 Q. If they had, would you remember,

    2 or is that too long ago?

    3 A. It has been a long time.

    4 Q. But did you change -- did you put

    5 a fresh pair of panties on her at that point

    6 when you were getting her ready for bed?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. (By Mr. Wickman) Mrs. Ramsey, I

    9 have a daughter myself, and kids do strange

    10 things, but was it her habit, when she

    11 changed clothes, did she have a routine to

    12 put them in a basket if they were dirty?

    13 How did that work?

    14 A. She usually probably dropped them

    15 wherever they came off.

    16 MR. WICKMAN: Okay. Thank you.

    17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Was that pretty

    18 much her practice with most of her clothes?

    19 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

    20 Q. I mean, not just her underwear,

    21 just they are off, new pair?

    22 A. (Witness nodded head

    23 affirmatively).

    24 MR. WOOD: Wait until he

    25 finishes and then answer.

    0115

    1 Q. (By Mr. Levin) For the record,

    2 you were nodding your head, and I take that

    3 as a yes.

    4 A. Yes.

    5 MR. LEVIN: Anything else on that

    6 topic?

    7 MR. KANE: No. Go ahead.

    "University of Colorado Law Professor Paul Campos declared the letter a 'reckless exoneration.' He went on to state, 'Everyone knows that relative immunity from criminal conviction is something money can buy.
    Apparently another thing it can buy is an apology for even being suspected of a crime you probably already would have been convicted of committing if you happened to be poor.'"
    FF: WRKJB?

    ~~~~~~~
    Bloomies underwear model:
    3 Dimensional

    ~~~~~~
    My opinions, nothing more.

  10. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Austin (Metro area), TX
    Posts
    3,761

    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by YumYum012
    The "Wednesday" panties may indeed be important. If the Ramseys were claiming that JonBenet wasn't awake after they got home, then it wouldn't 'do' to have her found in something other than the Wednesday panties ... IF there were witnesses to her Wednesday panties.
    ...YumYum
    Take this a step further...There was a washer and dryer available to wash the correct size panties and replace them, which begs the argument - why wasn't this done? Not enough time to wash them and dry them then redress JonBenét? Even if they had been hand washed and then dried? Or - not enough time to do this and allow the dryer to cool down so it would not be obvious it had been used during the night? Could the noise of the machines carry through the night to a neighbor or wake another family member?

    Seems simpler to have washed and dried the correct size but if there was not time and one was frantic they might not think that having a size so obviously too large was going to raise such tough questions. Conversely, there are some men who are very oblivious and might not realize how odd this would look nor would a child of 9 say - so it raises the question of just who redressed JonBenét if in fact she had on the smaller panties to begin with, and it goes without saying that unless the larger size were over a pull-up that she would not have been the least bit comfortable wearing them. In fact the size is so out of proportion that she may as well have been wearing nothing when it comes to modesty.

    Aside from the comfort and modesty factor, had JonBenét had on the larger size earlier in the evening without a pull-up under them, they would have bunched up under her pants (similar to tucking in your shirt and not getting it smooth) unless the pants themselves were too large. It's difficult to believe that Patsy would have allowed JonBenét to look less than adorably perfect for the party that evening.



    Jay - we call them "Mollies" and "Hangards" (boxers) or "Tighty Whities" (briefs) but my mother called them "Unmentionables."
    Never let the children, Elders, the sick, or the infirm be exploited.


    "I love everything that's old: old friends, old times, old manners, old books, old wines." Oliver Goldsmith


    Let's bring all our missing and military home safely!


    All of my thoughts written here are my constitutionally protected opinion.

    I reject any form of government in which the opinion of the village idiot is given the same weight as the opinion of Aristotle. (author unknown)

    ©

  11. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by J_R
    ... so it raises the question of just who redressed JonBenét if in fact she had on the smaller panties to begin with, and it goes without saying that unless the larger size were over a pull-up that she would not have been the least bit comfortable wearing them. In fact the size is so out of proportion that she may as well have been wearing nothing when it comes to modesty.

    Aside from the comfort and modesty factor, had JonBenét had on the larger size earlier in the evening without a pull-up under them, they would have bunched up under her pants (similar to tucking in your shirt and not getting it smooth) unless the pants themselves were too large. It's difficult to believe that Patsy would have allowed JonBenét to look less than adorably perfect for the party that evening.
    Excellent point, JR.

    JonBenet DID NOT have size 12/14 panties on at the Whites under her black pants. There is no way. They would have bunched in all the wrong places, not covered the right places, and been extremely uncomfortable. She would have been constantly pulling at the seat of her pants trying to get the panties unbunched.

    If JonBenet DID wear a pull-up to the Whites, it would have shown under her black pants as being a bulge because the shirt she supposedly wore would not have been long enough to cover her hind end. In addition, there would have been no need to add the extra layer of panties to the pull-up unless it was to help JonBenet psychologically get over the embarrassment of wearing the pull-ups because she was still getting to wear "big girl" panties over them.

    As an aside to our overseas contingent, I'm sorry about your discomfort with our word for women's underwear, but maybe it will help if you just think of it as the diminuitive for the word "pants" ... i.e. little pants - panties.

    Why_Nut is right. "Knickers" is our word for knee-length pants. What do you call THOSE?

  12. #24
    Join Date
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    Candyland
    Posts
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee
    word "pants" ... i.e. little pants - panties.

    Why_Nut is right. "Knickers" is our word for knee-length pants. What do you call THOSE?
    ... pantaloons?

    ETA - or bloomers. Actually it would be pantaloons if they were for a bloke and bloomers for a woman. I thought that was where Bloomies came from.
    This is my opinion and it may not be copied in whole or in part without my written permission



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