A Call For Protection

Anybody got a swatter?

Right on, Moab!

 

Hold it everyone please

Fly, much as I respect your posts and your ability to normally be fair, IMHO, you are jumping to conclusions about what other forum members might be doing when it comes to being pro-active.

Some are good at verbalizing what is going on, others may choose to act and not speak about it, still others may be active but not actively involved in a search.

I know for a fact at least one forum member sent a nice gift certificate to Texas Equuasearch for office supplies. Another forum member got the initial T-shirt design ready for the silk screener (layering it both in color and gray-tones, which I couldn't manage to do.) Angel (and others) continually sends encouraging messages (kind of difficult to search from London), and I believe it was Ayeka who printed out flyers and distributed them in DC as others may have done and simply not mentioned.

Several have taken the time to send letters to AMW and other shows to try to get some national attention on this case. FedoraX has offered multiple suggestions on the Rachel Cooke threads on how to get national attention on this case. One member (Cowboy) spent one full day on the Ride for Rachel, and some of our newer members are searchers from the Rachel Cooke searches.

Phaseiii, Katie Dog, TF, and Todd all heard about FFJ through the search for Rachel. RC is Rachel's dad of course.

Additionally, forum members contributed to the donation sent to Klauus Kids Foundation and the flowers sent to the van Dams.

So, no, maybe these folks have not physically been involved in a search but they certainly have been proactive in trying to do what they can to help.

If there had been another way to go about posting all the information and pictures on the Rachel Search, trust me, you would not have known I was involved in that search. Alas, we simply don't have the resources (people wise) to get all the information on the forum that we would like to. Further, a lot is being done behind the scenes to get more useful information on the forum. For example, VP is currently working on the information needed to inspire a more proactive stance in prevention of this type of crime.

So dear Fly, much as I adore your posts, you deserve for that fly swatter to smack you in the fanny right now.

Though I hate for anyone to feel slighted, I am sure I have missed quite a few activities and contributers here, however, I think you get the message.

Edited to say: I missed an important person here. Leia aka Dunvegan, thank you for providing a springboard from whence we might all continue to be proactive.

 

Fly

RE: the Ramseys, they made their bed and now they have to lie in it. JMHO. Nothing they do now will change the fact that they clearly did not do what was necessary to assist the BPD up front, if in fact there was an intruder who killed JonBenét. Nor did they do what was necessary to assist the BPD in determining which family member was involved if one was. Again, JMHO.

 

Here is my suggestion

Half baked but I am working on the recipe.

HOW ABOUT THESE COMPUTER LITERATE GIANTS THE RAMSEYS

I have removed my post here for the most part.

I have edited to read as follows:

Surely this was/is their area of expertise, why did they not use it to their advantage to find aid for missing and exploited children, would have been cheaper than lawyers.

 

cheers, but disappointed

There is reason to cheer, and reason for disappointment in the posts in reply to mine.

First, HOORAY for WY for being honest enough to admit that the Ramseys will be damned if they do and damned if they don't!

Second, it disappointing that you still can't focus on the very simple, unambiguous issue: If you don't like the fact that the Ramseys are not working toward achieving their project's stated goal, you shouldn't criticize them and accuse them of selfish motivations when they do something to work toward their project's stated goal. Whether they are hypocritical is not the issue (more on this later). Whether what they are doing is too little, too late is not the issue.

I share a lot of your opinions about things, but IMO most of those opinions are not relevant to the issue I raised, or they even work against your position.

I agree that:
(1) it would have been better if the Rs had done more, sooner, at least if they are truly innocent. If not innocent, then we have the problem of hypocrisy, and more and sooner wouldn't be better.

Of course, I suspect that the reception would have been about the same, contrary to what Moab indicated. The fact that they were slow doesn't justify knocking them for not acting, then knocking them for acting a week later. Remember "Better late than never?"

(2) if a Ramsey was involved in JBR's death, it would be very hypocritical for them to become children's rights advocates (I agree that child killers make lousy child advocates).

If you think it is hypocritical for them to be associated with such projects, THAT is what you should criticize, not the fact that they (supposedly) have not done anything to promote that project.

Moab - if the Ramseys HAD gone out to search for missing kids, or gotten heavily involved in some campaign - especially during the early days - do you REALLY think they'd have been welcomed? Do you really think folks wouldn't have screamed "hypocrit" then? My bet is they'd have gotten the same reception OJ did.

BobC - Thought OJ's offer was awful. Feel somewhat the same way about the Ramseys, but because my level of certainty of their guilt is far, far less, and because they haven't been found responsible in any court, I'm not appalled. But this isn't the issue.

Moab - I'm glad to know that you've been active. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've gotten the idea that wealth is not a totally foreign concept to everybody here. Sure, most of us have commitments that make it difficult to hop on a plane to San Diego or Oregon to search, but is that not also at least somewhat true of the Ramseys?

In any case, why is doing that, or doing things the way Klass or Walsh have, the only right way to prove one's concern?

The issue is still very simple and very clear: If you criticize somebody for inaction, you shouldn't criticize them when they become active.

 

JR

JR - Small gestures don't count, JR, at least if the standards set for the Ramseys are to be the model.

I was fully aware that I was making assumptions (negative ones, at that) about people's inaction. You may not realize how many things I have typed, only to delete them when I realize that I can't back them up or that they are inconsistent with my message. In this case I knew the likely pitfall, but by things turning out that way, part of my message would still be supported, so I didn't delete. That is, even though we are not aware that somebody is doing something, that doesn't mean they are inactive.

I'm glad so many are doing at least small things. If everybody values the small things, then I'm sure they value the small things the Ramseys are doing.

 

Fly

The way I see it is that we have more than one issue here.

IMHO, small things do count. A drop of water at a time eventually adds up to a full glass. Some can't do much more than small things, either because they don't have the resources or their health may not permit it, as examples.

The Ramseys had the resources initially. They had /have the resources to assist the BPD. They had the resources to set up a significant foundation initially, they had the time and resources to travel here, there and everywhere the past five years. What better way to spread the word and to be an advocate for children?

I guarandamntee you that the Ramseys still have significantly more resources than the Cooke family and more resources than most forum members have.

You see Fly, I don't believe anyone is missing your real message here. IMHO, people are fed up to the gills with the Ramseys because 5+ years after the murder of their child, they still have not done everything necessary to remove the umbrella of suspicion from themselves and hence, allowing the BPD, CBI and so on to move forward in this case. Until such time as they do, IMHO, anything they do will bring out people's anger and the Ramsey's will be criticized. As I said, they made their bed...only they can re-make it. To do so, they have to start at the bare mattress - baring their souls to the BPD if that's what it takes to find justice for JonBenét.
****
The van Dams allowed themselves to be questioned and treated like suspects, took polygraphs, and did what ever was necessary for the police to move beyond them to look for the perp.

The Cookes allowed themselves to be questioned and treated like suspects, took polygraphs, and did what ever was necessary for the police to move beyond them to look for the perp and their missing daughter.

Did either of these families enjoy the experience? I seriously doubt it. Were they offended by it? Probably a re-sounding Yes! but they did what was necessary to get the case moving in the right direction.

Both families are now doing something about a foundation.

In the Cooke case, they don't even have closure yet Fly. Any wonder why the Ramseys are damned if they do and damned if they don't?

 

I agree Tricia. Years ago John Ramsey used nearly the same phrase about wanting to call in the Russian army when he saw JBR was missing and meanwhile he was hiding behind lawyers and IMO obstructing justice. He was a phony liar then and he's a phony liar now.

This reptile is no better suited to lecture about missing children than OJ Simpson is to lecture battered women. The arrogance of these people is just unbelievable.

In all this time I still feel like no one's gotten the story of what happened in Ramsey house quite right but I'll say this--it is virtually impossible for an intruder to have had done the crime and the Ramseys have thwarted their own investigation. Do the math. That makes them completely unqualified to lecture anybody about missing kids.

Now if they want to do some lectures on how to stymie investigations or buy justice...

 

a few more comments

Tricia - The point is that they did something. One of those little drops JR just mentioned. And they got criticized for it.

Yes, they made their bed. I don't have any problem with criticisms regarding their hypocrisy, the lack of full cooperation with the police in the early days, etc. I do have problems when people criticize them (or anybody) for doing nothing, and then criticize them for doing something.

Let's change the players. Let's say you announced one day, "I think ST is getting screwed, and I'm going to work on helping him fight his lawsuit." Suppose time passes and there is no sign that you have done anything, and you get blasted for doing nothing.

"She talks big, but hasn't done a darn thing! Too busy attending the Olympics, probably. What a selfish moron."

But actually, you have been doing something, only it hasn't gone public yet. You finish and launch the website you've been working on in private, and the same group who criticized your inaction now criticizes the fact that you posted a website and suggests that you are just seeking the limelight for yourself.

"That website is worthless. She should have appeared on Larry King with John Walsh! She should get Alan Derkowitz to join Petrocelli! Why isn't she putting ads in papers in all the major cities? This is just another case of wanting attention for herself - just like wanting to do the dailies every day."

I doubt you'd think it was fair treatment. Folks would be crying foul (or fowl, in Sparky's case) immediately on your behalf.

Movements have to start somewhere, and sometimes those first steps are small and confined to small groups. It's called the grassroots approach. The Ramseys don't deserve special attention for their talk, but they don't deserve to be criticized for it. They deserve much of the other criticism they get, but that's not the issue here.

Jameson didn't trumpet this Kiwanis talk, so I wouldn't necessarily expect her to say anything about other small things. I doubt that she knows everything the Ramseys do.

JR - I think small efforts are fine, and that includes when the Ramseys make them. If you and other folks only are willing to count BIG efforts on the Ramseys' part, then why not hold most other folks to those same standards?

What the Ramseys did and did not do during the early days of the case is not relevant to the action/inaction concerning their project. It is certainly relevant to the bias that makes some here unable to maintain any kind of intellectual consistency.

 

Well now

this is starting to tickle me just a tetch, but I do have a couple three more things to say. You will all have to forgive me - I'm working my way to the bottom of a carton of malted milk Whoppers and I'm on a sugar high.

Whenever I said to the Ramseys, "Do something," I didn't mean for them to create another fake foundation. I meant, get off yer dead a$$es and actively cooperate with the BPd. It really too late for that, though, too, at this point.

I really have to give the Ramseys credit - they played this like pros. They went on the offensive the very day their daughter was found dead in their basement. Yepper, I watched them as they hired all those "seasoned investigators," to find the killer of their daughter. Everything was choreographed to a T - perfect public relations. Years later, in sworn testimony, JR admitted he didn't hire those "seasoned investigators" to investigate squat but to keep his lying arse out of prison.

They aggressively pursued the intruder line - sucked ol' Lou in like a steelhead trout flopping in the wind as they reeled him in hook, line and sinker. They were awesome, John and Patsy, manipulating, baiting, the master and his drama mama at their very best. Their politically connected attorneys snowed the boobs in the DA's office, obstructed justice at every turn, demanded and got concessions the ordinary Joe Blow would never have dared ask for.

I saw it for what it was - many people saw what was happening. Don't go on the defensive - go on the in-your-face offensive - throws the idiots in the DA's office every time. How dare you accuse me of such a thing - you are going down the wrong road - I am offended you could ask me to take a polygraph - there's this DNA, you see, that proves an intruder was there that night and it's the killa's DNA. And, there are people who not only believe this tripe, but they take it and expand on it - the old and cracked DNA under JB's fingernails morphs into flesh and blood from defensive actions by JB; packing peanuts become proof of an intruder, no evidence of anyone on the window sill morphs into disturbances at the window, lies, lies, lies.

Hello? Hello? Hello? Is there a single thinking person left on this planet or has the OJ jury syndrome spread? I know it's spread into Boulder and Aspen, Colorado. We are thinking people - yes, I think we are. I think the Ramseys' actions heretofore prove they are offensively trying to save their lying butts. If I EVER said anything about their not doing anything with their foundations, I can assure everyone it was said with great sarcasm and was the truth as I saw it. They certainly did NOT do anything with the other organizations they supposedly formed or were a part of. That isn't criticism, that is a statement of fact.

Now it is also a statement of fact that they are the biggest hippocrits in Georgia - I was going to say in the country - but I forgot the idiot stick in Virginia or wherever the help she lives - who cares? Repeat - Fact - the Ramseys did not do anything with the JB Foundation or anything else they were part of. Not criticism - fact. Fact - the Ramseys feeble attempts to now "do something" are more of their go-on-the-offensive actions, not genuine, heartfelt concerns for children. Using children's issues as a platform for their personal agenda puts them at a new low, IMO. They need to take themselves and their disgusting lawyer and mouthpiece at the swamp and go underground for about 20 years.

Nothing they do will ever remove the stigma of the way they used their wealth to obstruct justice and harm the investigation into the death of their own child. That's not the actions of innocent people. I believe they know what happened to their dead daughter and may have been involved in it. Don't anyone dare suggest I should be thrilled that they are now using other children to further their own agendas.

Edited to add - Fly, I strongly disagree with you - I think what the Ramseys did and did not do during the early days of the case is absolutely relevant to the action/inaction concerning their so-called project because it goes to credibility, and they don't have any. No one should expect anyone to just forget their past behavior, because it is a continuous line of behavior very much related to previous actions.

I'm done, and I ate every last one of those fattening malted milk balls. I hope you are all happy now.

 

Fly

Not everyone can afford to do things in the same manner. Each small effort accounts for something regardless of who makes it. IMHO, you misunderstood that point.

The Ramseys net worth was roughly $7,000,000.00 when this case first started. Had they taken $70,000 of that net worth and started a non-profit organization in their dead child's name and worked at it, that organization most likely could have done some extraordinary things by now. Do you not agree?

Had the Ramseys taken $7,000 of that money and donated it to another organization I am positive the word would have gotten out. For many of these non-profit foundations, $7,000 is a windfall!

Here is a little math for you. One can buy a case of paper at Office Depot for about $26.00. That is 10 reams of 500 sheets of paper or 5000 flyers. Let's round and say one could buy 27 cases of paper for $700.00. That is now 135,000 flyers. $7,000 would about provide 270 cases of paper or 1,350,000 flyers.

Just one flyer just might provide the lead needed to bring a missing child home.

The issue here is that the Ramseys did nothing. 5+ years later they want to come back and suggest that they are going to start yet another foundation or organization when the first two went no where.

Do you honestly think anyone is going to even take notice other than to criticize them? I don't.

Do you have any friends or acquaintances that will contribute to this new project? I don't.

I agree with you in principle. But too many of us have seen the Ramseys repeatedly do what ever is necessary to further just one cause. That cause Fly, is the John and Patsy Ramsey cause, not justice for a child, their daughter JonBenét, who's body was left beaten, molested and garroted in their basement on Christmas night.

Justice for JonBenét Fly.

 

final words

One more hypothetical in hopes of getting through.

Your kid just won a prize for his essay on the importance of a neatness. After scolding your kid for not making his bed yesterday, would it be right to scold him when he does make his bed today? Would it be right to scold him, complaining he didn't make your bed and his sister's bed, too? Would your answer change if your kid is a real ******* who tortured dogs, stole kids' lunch money, trashed other kids' rooms, and lied any time it would benefit him?

No on all counts, is my answer.

Last word on this from me, I hope, at least if I can manage to restrain myself. If somebody requests a specific response, I'll oblige.

 

Fly

Sorry, if my kid didn't make his bed yesterday he would get far more than a scolding.

If he made his bed today but hadn't done so for the past 1,926 days (not likely to happen in my house), I would wonder what the heck he was up too, what he wanted, what he was hiding, and be watching very carefully to find out how he was going to blindside me later, but no, I wouldn't scold him. I would thoroughly question what he was up to though.

My kid would never become a real scum bag because the first time he showed anti-social behavior he would pay a very large penalty, if the behavior was repeated he would be shipped off to a military academy or like place, where he would quickly learn that the world is full of rules that he best learn while young because they were only going to get tougher as he gets older.

My children (now grown and parents) were taught from infancy that one doesn't lie or misbehave in any of the ways you suggest, among others. They were also told that if they did something inappropriate they might or might not be punished but if they lied about it, they would definitely be punished.

Sorry, this analogy doesn't work for me other than to reinforce what is wrong with many kids today. The kids set the rules when it should be the parents setting the rules. Additionally, the parents clearly are not keeping the lines of communication open. OK - off my soap box now.

I understand your message Fly. The problem is that there is still more than one issue here. The Ramseys can start all the non-profit organizations in the world. That still doesn't change the fact that they are not doing what needs to be done to remove themselves from the umbrella of suspicion. It also won't buy them credibility IMHO.

Fly, credibility and hard work are the keys to a successful non-profit. The Ramseys have no credibility IMHO. Will they actually work at making this new project successful? Time will tell.

 

I LOVE TRICIA!! I am rushing to the store to get a No-Pest STRIP!! HANG ON!!!

 

Hold on --

Better get several swatters, cause summer is coming, and I always get my hair stuck in those sticky strips, when I lean over the sink.

 

Tricia

Tricia - The speech IS the action, and it did spread the word. A small effort, yes, but something.

It should be obvious that the Tricia/ST analogy was not intended to accurately portray the facts of what you did or how others felt about it. It was a hypothetical based loosely on your situation.

 

"The speech IS the action, and it did spread the word. A small effort, yes, but something. "


Oh my goodness, with all the Ramseys money, time (john being unemployable) their worldwide fame and contacts
and this is all they have to offer in their daughters name/memory... how friggin pathetic.....and you Fly expect them to get kudos for this small effort?
I'm sorry to say but this just sounds like someone trying to score points before meeting their maker, they couldn't be bothered before and now that Patsy's life could be threatned they want to do something? How noble don't ya think.