A Conspiracy In Boulder

Madeleine, Fleet White got into an argument with JR AFTER the funeral in Atlanta, over "something" which no one has ever revealed. There are reports that police were called, but those reports have never been documented and contain various stories of what happened.

JR and Patsy spoke about "the argument", but JR minimized it. It took place at the Paugh home. Patsy played it to the hilt, saying she and others were sent to the basement, making it seem like White was threatening.

Here's how it the story goes, more or less: the Whites were upset about "something" in Atlanta. One version has Fleet going off on his hosts, where he and Priscilla stayed while in Atlanta for the funeral, complaining they were too extravagant in their lifestyle or some such, which sounds ridiculous to me. Another part/version is that John's brother Jeff called John and said White was upset and coming to the Paugh's and blahblahblah. Someone (from the RST, no doubt) said there was a "gun" involved, but the best I can remember is that Patsy's father got out HIS gun before White got there.

At any rate, whatever part of the story is true, exaggerated, or just fiction to make the Whites look bad, the upshot was that the Whites moved into a hotel and then left shortly.

As to what the argument was about, we don't really know, because, as I said, JR and Patsy won't tell, nor has anyone who was there. Yes, the Whites have remained silent on the issue, so all we get is gossip, usually constructed by the RST to make the Whites look bad.

I don't know why the Whites have not told "their side" of any of this, but I can tell you what I think. I think they had too much integrity to speak to the media about the murder of a child they knew and loved and cared for at times, as close friends of the family for two years. Their testimony at one time could have been impeached had they spoken to the media.

Also, remember they were IN THE HOME and SAW A MURDERED CHILD THEY LOVED brought up from the basement, stiff as a board. Imagine how you'd react. I can imagine, but honestly, who knows how they would act? The Ramseys have always opined that no one knows how they'd act in their shoes. I submit the Whites should get as much grace, but of course, they're too convenient as red herrings for Team Ramsey, so they don't.

Next to JonBenet, the Whites have been the most mistreated innocents in this murder, IMO. They did NOTHING but befriend the Ramseys and show up when Patsy "frantically" called them over that morning. They have alibis. No evidence has ever proven they had anything to do with this murder, not any crime, yet they've been accused of this and MUCH, MUCH WORSE, thanks to Team Ramsey.

The Whites are the only private citizens close to this case who have worked relentlessly to get justice for JonBenet. For their troubles, JR is implying they are killers TO THE MEDIA as recently as this year. The Whites were "discredited" by Team Ramsey's machinations for a REASON. Probably the very thing that the "argument" was about in Atlanta.

The gossip about the issues of the argument: White wanted the Ramseys to return to Boulder and help LE, not hinder the investigation by STONEWALLING it with lawyers and refusing to talk to LE. Remember the Ramseys were going on national TV the day after the funeral, being interviewed by a REPORTER, when they wouldn't even talk to LE.

What is the truth? We don't know. All we know is the gossip. It could be true, partially true, or something else entirely. I doubt we'll ever know.

Yes, it's frustrating. No, there will never be an arrest or conviction in this murder, because Patsy and her ransom note will always be reasonable doubt for ANYONE but her. If that weren't enough, the "touch" DNA is always going to keep any Ramsey from being indicted, as well. Mary Lacy saw to that with her "exhoneration" letter. What prosecutor could ever get a jury past that shockingly irresponsible lie told by a Boulder DA?

As her sister Pam told a reporter when Patsy died, "she has her VICTORY"!

So if you're thinking the Whites are involved somehow, I caution you, before you inadvertantly step into a hot mess: this isn't the place to push that. You can use the research funciton to read all about it here, and I would suggest you do that if you're interested, as it's all been said before, and in great detail.

You see, there's a long history of forum wars over this very topic, and it ain't pretty. A once brilliant, thriving, JonBenet case forum, Justice Watch, went up in flames over this topic. I'm sure you don't know about it, but this is actually what led to the creation of FFJ. We needed a place where the rabid White-haters wouldn't be disrupting every discussion with their unsupported victimization of the Whites, not to mention the vicious attacks on anyone who asked for something as simple as EVIDENCE to support their innuendoes and accusations.

It took years, but finally it was revealed that all the unfounded gossip came from a very sick, mentally ill woman, who had a documented history of injecting herself into high profile murder cases, accusing her family of every sick thing you can imagine, and who happened to actually have a loose link to the Ramseys (six degress of separation-style) because her grandparents had been friends with the White's parents since the 1940s. Krebs lies were investigated by the BPD and the FBI, and she turned out to be as crazy as John PERV Karr. It took years for us to get the "Nancy Krebs" LE file to learn where all this was coming from, and in fact, the Whites were the ones who went to court and got the interview transcripts and other related documents released to the public. It was a sickening thing, to see how the Whites were vilified by so many of the usual suspects (people with their own mental issues, in general) on the basis of nothing more than the obvious lies created by such a wingnut. (You can find this file at ACandyRose.com, if you want to read some bat chit crazy stuff.)

This was all compounded by the fact that those of us who prefer actual EVIDENCE to lies were given quite a lesson on how vicious and harmful people can be when they want to go after you on the Internet. It's nothing new today, but back then, we were gullible and trusting and learned some hard lessons, and that's why it's so hard to get into FFJ. It's why some of us here are still a bit paranoid and always will be.

Which is why I caution you on this: you couldn't have chosen a more delicate topic as a new member.

 

I realize I missed some of your questions...sorry, it's a very long story and I am incapable of editing it to reasonable proportions, obviously. :blush:

At some point during the funeral preparations that week, I'm thinking it was, or maybe it was right after the argument--at any rate, during that stressful week, Patsy said Priscilla told her she had info she wanted to share with Patsy which Patsy didn't know. We only have Patsy's version of this, so that makes it unreliable. Patsy lied a lot about everything when it suited her cover up purposes, IMO. I don't believe anything the woman said. If Priscilla said anything like that, I'm sure there's more to the story we don't know and probably never will.

Regarding White's sealed deposition:

White's deposition (I think that's what you mean by "statements") was sealed by the judge, as was EVERYONE ELSE'S originally, in the Wolf lawsuit. The Ramseys chose, through their attorney Lin Wood, to release their depositions. Wood provided them to none other than the infamous snake JAMS at the swamp. They could do that because these were their depositions and the civil case had been dismissed by the judge before it ever went to trial. However, if you call the judge's office to get copies of any of the depositions in that case, the clerks will tell you quickly that if you're not a party to the suit, you ain't getting nuttin' that's sealed! (Been there, done that.) Some have been unsealed; someone did go after Steve Thomas' deposition and got it unsealed, with redactions of personal info. Other depositions from that suit are also online, and I've never heard that any of those parties filed a complaint, so I'm not sure if they didn't care or motions to unseal went through the legal process, but quite a few are now available at ACandyRose.com.

So what we see is what Team Ramsey WANT us to see. (Fortunately, they're so blind to the truth, they entirely miss what objective observers see as plain as day--like how much the Ramseys lied AGAIN, and revealed former lies, and changed their stories YET AGAIN.)

Remember Lou Smit's deposition was also sealed. Why didn't Team Ramsey release THAT years ago? Because as per usual, Smit was as full of chit as ever, which we know now (and guessed before) because we finally got a peek last year at Smit's Wolf deposition when, ever the Ramsey lackey, swamp queen jams put her EDITED version of it on her website--and she didn't get it through the judge's office, either.

Jams also posted an edited version of White's deposition at the swamp briefly, but had to take it down because White called the judge and complained. I saw what she published of that deposition, so I can tell you that nothing in that edited version was incriminating for White. I'm sure White complained because it was illegal for jams to put it up without HIS permission, as it was and is still sealed. If someone wants it unsealed, they can petition the judge with a legal motion, but jams didn't do that. My guess is that the Whites simply don't want the Ramseys' chief Internet propagandist using them on her sicko website for more ego-boosting attention. But I am only guessing that because the Whites have made it clear they don't want any of us talking about them, this case, nada. From what I've actually read of their court petitions through the years, they despise FFJ as they do any public forum discussing this case. I can't say I blame them though. This murder devastated their lives in untold ways, no doubt. Who can imagine how deeply they have been cut by all of this? Not I.

"Why do they all have secrets?" I'm not sure the Whites "have secrets," not in the way you're implying. They are WITNESSES. That doesn't mean they are obligated to tell the general public anything. In fact, I felt for a long time they were wise to keep their credibility for trial intact by not "speaking out." I do believe, because White said under oath in the Wolf deposition that he didn't remember pretty much anything about that day, that he can no longer be a credible witness about the events of that morning. My thoughts on this are that by then, White had probably figured out either there would never be a trial, or the price of being a witness was too great after all the hell his family had been put through. Can't say as I blame him, because I have felt for a long time this case was buried by Boulder LE from Day One, intentionally or not. (I vote for intentionally.)

"Why was it never about JonBenet?" Because her parents made it NOT about JonBenet when they ran from the house and her abused body that day and began obstructing the investigation pronto, with the biggest legal guns in the West they could hire. That's why.

Is there no one unbiased? I think Steve Thomas is one of the few people who has put all on the line to tell the truth about this murder and all those who WERE biased and accordingly destroyed the chance for justice for JonBenet. If you read the many attempts by the Whites to get the governor and the courts to step in and take the case out of the hands of corrupt Alex Hunter so it could be investigated and prosecuted without bias, you might see they also risked much to see justice for JonBenet and paid dearly for it. Certainly both of these parties did far more than the Ramseys ever did to seek justice for JonBenet.

 

destruction of justice watch

I was there - bad memories. Evil postings designed to destroy the Whites' reputations were allowed to run rampant. It was inexcusable.

 

And KoldKase may I mention,

that there was a petition signed by over 1000 people and hand carried to the State Capitol and then Governor of Colorado by 5 members of FFJ asking for a special prosecutor to examine this case. (was that 5 years ago now?) I was one of those members and we met with the Chief Council to the governor for about an hour. She was surprised by our passion for justice and wanted to know why were doing this. We told her that we wanted nothing but justice for JonBenet. She asked each of us who did this and to a woman we each said that we didn't know but that the Ramseys knew more than they were letting on. I bring this up specifically because in your last paragraph you mention that ST was one of the only ones who was unbiased in his belief for justice. I just wanted to remind you and Madeleine_ws that we are a group of unbiased folks who want justice for this beautiful little girl. Oh yes, we can all have our suspicions along the way but when push comes to shove we don't know who did what do we?

 

I am sorry and thanks.I noticed that no matter if RDI or IDI people don't bring the subject up.But I haven't been around when those fights took place so this subject is kinda new to me and that's why I had some questions about it.

 

Thanks for your clarification. In answering madeleine's question, I was thinking in terms of the people who were directly involved as witnesses or investigators or who were in some way legally responsible in adjudicating the case, which is why I only mentioned the two I did.

What you and Tricia and Rat and CB and and and...one other person whose names escapes me at this moment...did for JonBenet was amazing. I know what it cost each of you, as well.

 

I understand that, which is why I went on so long about it, so you will understand why it's a sore topic on Tricia's forums. I don't want you to feel badly about it, but it's a fact of the sub-culture history that still causes problems.

 

By biased I meant people involved in the case as key players.
And re ST,I always but always defended him no matter what(he's the reason I started following the case and am here now and not somewhere else),even if I don't agree with him on one thing.He was too soft on JR.IMO.

 

Few of us who were there will ever forget the deceit and gossip used with nothing but malicious intent, Texan.

 

KoldKase,

The 5 of us that went to Boulder that snowy April day are Tricia, River Rat, Colorado Babe, Voyager and me. We loved the Capitol Building and were treated to a special experience while walking the halls. A group of people (not sure of their ages) lined up on a staircase and sang America the Beautiful. It resounded in the huge and tall hallways so that I had goosebumps all over just listening to it. I think voyager did likewise as all the rest of us. Tricia had an on TV camera interview while we were there on one of the side staircases. It was a great time that we had. when we drove by the hell hole house, there was snow on the ground and on the rocks that were lined up in front of the iron fence that had been added since the crime as landscaping. RR went over the top rock and wrote in the snow that FFJ was there.

 

Well bonded

ZooMama,

My hat is off to you, Tricia, River Rat, Colorado Babe and Voyager for having made this flight to Boulder. I wish I had been there! This famous group of five will be bonded forever. :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose:

 

Ah, yes, what Elle said!

Sorry I forgot you, Voyager! My aging brain....

Yes, each of you who made that trip and all who signed and worked on the petition deserve credit for your efforts on behalf of abused children everywhere.

I was thinking recently that it's not JUST JonBenet who has been denied justice here; it is the whole of America. The damage done to our justice system by the corruption of the Boulder DA Office is irreparable without those who perpetrated this crime being brought to justice. Nothing less will ever heal this rip in our trust and allow us to hope again that justice here is impartial.

I don't know that this will ever happen, but all those in the FFJ contingent deserve huge kudos for the effort made in correcting this injustice of tragic proportions.

:crown::crown::crown::crown::crown:​

 

RR should have carved it in the stone!

Didn't BobC go also...or am I confused?

 

Show me,

Nope just the 5 "gals" went. However we called BobC while we were there and I think we all talked to him.

 

Thanks Zoomama...I was confused.

I wish I could have joined you gals...one of the 'memories of a lifetime'!

 

koldkase,
I really get steamed when I think about Meyers not getting to the body until about 8 that evening.....it makes you wonder about conspiracy. I'd sure like to know whether or not the ligature was scraped for touch DNA. If not, this might be the straw that breaks the camel's back, if you will.

 

If the ligature hasn't been scraped, you can bet your life they're not interesting in finding the perp.

 

Not just the ligature, but the tape as well. And while we're on it, how about the handle of the suitcase that the perp "supposedly" climbed up on to get out the window. (yeah, right). I think we all know why these things were never tested, and why they never will be.
When Mayer finally got to the body, he spent less than 20 minutes there. He neglected to perform two very important procedures to determine TOD- a liver stab (to detect core body temp) and a sample of the vitreous fluid of the eye. Even more reliable than a liver stab, as the changing potassium levels of that fluid after death are more predictable than loss of body heat.
There is simply not much that will explain his failure to do these things except that he just didn't WANT to. Why is anybody's guess.

 

Probably I am not the first person who says it but what if Lacy came up with the "new DNA that shows it was an intruder" just so the case stays open and the files never become public?
I understand that as long as the case stays open/cold the files won't be made public.Maybe that's what this is all about.The case won't be closed,they are looking for an intruder that doesn't exist and as long they're doing this nothing else will be made public anymore,so says the new DA as well if I remember correctly?

I would say,make everything public and let the people decide....nobody will be charged in this case anyway..........I know,wishful thinking........sigh.....



:verdict: