Attorney-client Privilege?

Just a Minute, Spade

Quote: "DejaNu If you believe the Ramsey's story then they had NO need for a lawyer at 6AM.
Their daughter was kidnapped and their focus would have been to recover her not cover their own a**. The Ramsey's LIED from the getgo. Don't waste time
trying to make their fabrications seem logical."

You seem to be laboring under the misperception that I believe the Ramseys. Let me make it perfectly clear that I do not, never have, never will. If I did believe them, and my daughter had been kidnapped and I was warned she would be killed if I called authorities, you bet your sweet arse the first call I'd make is to my lawyer! And if I read the War and Peace of ransom notes over the phone to him, I'd hope my lawyer was good enough to recognize it was bogus and refer me to the best criminal defense lawyer money could buy. As you, I have believed in Ramsey culpability all along. John Ramsey knew one of them at least was good for it, and in that mindset, he most definitely would call lawyers at the precise time. Either way you look at it, lawyering up was a logical and expected thing to do. Not cooperating with LE was where they went way wrong. My intent is not to attempt to make lies seem logical, but to insert logic and deductive reasoning to the situation to assess whether your initial statement that the Rs pulled off something incredible in lawyering up could be accurate.

Quote:" Incidentally, Bynums law firm is the largest in Boulder and employs 300+ lawyers, many of whom do criminal defense work. In DOI John talks about being asked by Bynum if Bynum could handle finding legal representation for the R's.
The way John tells it, this occured on the 27th. BS"

Largest doesn't equate to best in the legal field, Spade. Hal Haddon is the best criminal defense lawyer in CO, hands down. The very fact that Bynum didn't keep the representation in-house but referred it out tells us this close friend of JR's was more concerned about quality representation for his friend. I have no doubt JR called Bynum the first day and Bynum referred him to Haddon. It's good lawyering and the Rs could afford the best.

Quote: "If you study how this case has been lawyered by both the prosecution and defense you will be well along the road of understanding what is really going on."

Scuze me? I have spent the last 30 years of my life careering in law and teaching it. I can't do anything BUT study the legal aspects of this case, including the competent lawyering on the Ramsey side of the fence and the incompetence of the DA's office. You have only to review my postings at numerous forums over the last 6 years to discover that's true. If you need a character reference on me, speak to Tricia. I'm here at FFJ at her invitation and encouragement.

Legal professionals have objective thinking, Spade, soas to see BOTH sides of a case. This is absolutely necessary to find weaknesses in the opposing side to prepare a better case on our own side. Such objective thinking uses logic, deductive reasoning and analysis in its approach to any legal situation. It's how we think, live, eat, sleep and breathe.

We may not like the outcome, but the Rs had excellent legal representation during the criminal phase of this case. And I suspect that Haddon and Hunter cut a deal. That's why their arses aren't in prison. The only agenda the DA's office has ever had in the case is to bury it, and it seems they have done a good job at that, not as a result of competence but connections.

There is an excellent study of the incestuous relationships between all the attorneys in this case and non-lawyers at Red Herring's. Boulder is a relatively small town that has enjoyed being run by the same group of power-brokers for the last 20 years. Those power-brokers are further incredibly well connected at very high levels. They work and run in the same circles. With that kind of network in place, anyone in the inner circle is bound to be protected. The Ramseys had all the RIGHT connections in Boulder. Finding a legal in-road to pierce that veil is what has been proving impossible.

And fair warning to anyone thinking about trying to angle a way to get phone records. Not even LE can get them without a warrant, and what is protected under GJ seal has already been reported as woefully insufficient as others have already posted. While NYL may have temporarily succeeded in defeating the secrecy issue, it was appealed by the DA, who won an overturnment order from the appellate court. Darnay pledges to appeal that appellate ruling to the US Supreme Court, but to the best of my knowledge, hasn't as yet. Unless and until he does, and succeeds, those GJ records remain under seal.

Let's not forget too that non-LE who found a way around that pesky warrant requirement to get phone records on the Ramseys were prosecuted in '97.

After studying this case from a legal perspective for the last 6 years, I believe the Rs called Bynum upon "discovering" the RN. It is entirely possible that that call was made on their cell while PR was calling 911, but highly improbable due to the time factor and French's appearance. Nevertheless, it was all part of the staging; the Rs have clearly been using everyone, including their lawyers, since the beginning.

I have never had a problem with suspects lawyering up; that is their constitutional right and frankly, quite smart. I've referred many clients over the years to other attorneys who have greater expertise and can provide more competent representation. JR had many opportunities to place numerous calls to lawyers on the 26th, not just one call and not to just one lawyer. The cell phone would have been the weapon of convenience and therefore choice with at least one cop rambling around his house. Maybe it's because I've been in the business, but I've never seen lawyering up as some red flag of guilt. But I have always had a problem with suspects who don't cooperate with an investigation. The Ramseys did everything but.

What is the key interest in this entire thread from a legal perspective is that Bynum and probably JR felt at risk for some reason by FW sufficiently enough to call FW on the rug the very same day. THAT's the most telltale aspect of this entire issue.

 

DejaNu

I'm not laboring under any misconceptions. If you found a "ransom note" and then called your civil lawyer before calling 911 in order to hook up with the top fixer in CO then I would say you are out of touch with your home(Reality). This is a waste of time. Read some more on this case then we might be able to discuss.

 

Quote: "DejaNu
I'm not laboring under any misconceptions. If you found a "ransom note" and then called your civil lawyer before calling 911 in order to hook up with the top fixer in CO then I would say you are out of touch with your home(Reality). This is a waste of time. Read some more on this case then we might be able to discuss."

Spade, get off your high horse. I'm not going to trade disparaging barbs with you. Any innocent person who would call police under those circumstances when their daughter's death is promised for doing so would be out of touch with reality, not vice versa. Any guilty party who wouldn't call a lawyer deserves what he will surely get. And we ALL know that JR himself considered this an "inside job" as stated to police on that very day. In either case, JR's call was to an attorney-friend, not just a selection out of the yellow pages. Anyone who is accustomed to working with lawyers in the course of business usually has their attorney's phone numbers on speed-dial. The very fact that JR called his corporate lawyer should tell you he was unfamiliar with criminal lawyers, not having apparently needed one as yet. Perhaps the wonderful world of business and law are not areas of life you are familiar with.

I hardly consider thoughtful intelligent discourse a waste of time, sorry you do. Many members have brought their RL expertise onto the forums to do so, and only those lacking in it find it necessary to flame us. The public's perception of all things legal has always fascinated me. It is usually 180 degrees from a legal perspective, as yours certainly is. When you get some legal experience of your own, perhaps you'll be able to see things differently.

Perhaps you should exercise some self-restraint and work at being more open to other concepts. I do not agree with you that the Ramseys pulled a quickie on the 26th, get over it. Again, the more interesting issue of any legal concern on this thread is where FW is concerned, and my efforts to try to focus posters on it will continue, regardless of your low opinion of me.

 

Furthermore

I strongly believe that both the 911 call and initial call to Bynum were part of a preconceived plan by the Ramseys to promote the kidnapping story. When it was obviously failing to convince LE, it is quite likely more phone calls to lawyer(s) were made throughout the day, one of which was focused on FW's involvement. It is also entirely possible that FW read the RN when he first arrived at the house that morning and expressed his belief right then and there that the note was bogus, thus creating concern by JR and subsequently the lawyer(s) about FW's position. However, there is nothing hard-evidence wise to suggest in which call with what lawyer FW's position could have been discussed, resulting in the call by Bynum. What is interesting is that Bynum felt the need to discuss the situation in person with FW, rather than by phone.

 

.........

 

DejaNu

If you would take the time to read Steve Thomas' book you will discover that the point of bymum's conversation with FW was to inform him that Haddon, Morgan, and Foreman had been retained, and that he was to stay out of it. As I said in an earlier post, this is a waste of time. Get up to speed!

 

Good Lord, Spade. I read that book years ago. Who died and made you God? Get over yourself and stick to the topic.

 

DejaNu

The only topic I'm interested in is to find a path to justice for JonBenet Ramsey. Since you think that rich people call or should call their civil lawyers when they discover their children have been kidnapped then you are an obstruction on that path.

 

Spade

(Forgive me, for I haven't read Thomas' book.) Ok, so we know the purpose of the face to face meaning and what was said (more or less), but that still doesn't explain the why. Is there any explanation given to why FW in particular was called in like a bad child to the principal's office and essentially told to stay out of it?

That's what intrigues me. I don't think it's a 'waste of time'.

Ayeka

 

Reason

Bynum called FW to his office to tell him that Haddon, Morgan, and Foreman had been hired. The Ramsey's wanted their attorneys to handle the situation and they wanted FW to stay out of it.

The intriging thing about this is the timing. JBR's body was discovered at aprox. 1:15 PM. The Ramsey's had Haddon etal. HANDLING the situation by 4-5 PM. IMO Bynum had to have a head start, maybe 3-4 AM.

FW received special attention from Bynum because he was an outspoken advocate of the fact that John and Patsy's first priority should be cooperation with the police....not hiding behind lawyers who were HANDLING the situation.

 

DejaNu

I agree with you as regards the 911 call; however, I disagree regarding Bynum. Of course, I disagree with just about everyone as regards Bynum.

Ramsey did call Bynum, but he didn't wait until 6:00 a.m. to do so. Sufficie it to say, I've heard the telephone records were not dumped, and there were calls made in the middle of the night by John, and that one of the recipient of those calls was one, Mike Bynum.

Please take notice that Bynum was up and out of his house by 5:30 that morning, according to his own testimony. He claims he was out of town snowshoeing. He doesn't show up in Boulder until late that afternoon, and he's no sooner in town when he calls White into his office!

The purpose for calling White is, I believe, as you noted. White took copious notes; he's intelligent and knows how to add (as in 2 + 2 = murder). Bynum called White to his office that afternoon to tell him to stay out of this because Bynum was handling things and had retained Haddon's firm for representation.

Also consider how Bynum was able to make contact with Haddon's firm and get John representation while he was out in the mountains snowshoeing!

I disagree with you that the parents should have called their lawyers upon finding the note. This is a guilty mind at work! A parents worst fear has been realized and he should get immediate help to find his daughter...not immediate help to cover his from police scrutiny!!! Discussions have been rampant as regards who should have been called that morning. John was involved with defense contracts and was a CEO whose "wealth" was advertised in the paper just prior to the kidnapping. John should have been astute enough of what can happen to rich men's daughters, as well as how he should react if something terrible does happen. Telling his wife to call police while he took a shower doesn't cut it!

Spade's making a decent point here...if Bynum knew nothing because he was out in the mountains snowshoeing all day, how did he manage to make contact with Ramsey and immediately get criminal representation? Which brings up another point: just because he's aware of how police would look to the family first as suspects, what drove him to immediately believe that Ramsey needed criminal representation immediately? Bynum was a former prosecutor and could have easily handled this in the beginning. Why bring in the big guns so soon...say, before a body's even found?

jmho w/a little help from a source or two. ;-)

 

Spade, I'm sorry you feel I'm some impediment to your mission. I believe in civil rights, the presumption of innocence and Miranda when it says, "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney...." Anyone facing that statement would be foolish not to lawyer up then cooperate. However, you have the right to your opinion as well. Hope you're never in a situation where you'll need to exercise Miranda...

Chris Wolf, in absence of counsel, was extremely belligerent and combative with BPD when interviewed on several occasions. As yet, no one has voiced a problem with his reaction to LE suspicion. Yet many RDIers have taken up his cause, just as further fuel against the Ramseys.

The legal system provides accommodation for both truth AND preservation of civil rights. When one is chosen over the other, justice is not served. The only way to achieve both is through competent legal counsel to preserve those rights AND cooperation with an investigation to uncover the truth without violating them. This also diminishes opportunity for the convicted to file appeals, another legal strategy.

Ginja, good to see you.

IMO an innocent parent who just woke up to a ransom note threatening to kill his child if he calls police would want legal advice on whether to call LE or handle it without interference. I find that reasonable and proper in the premise. That's all. Why Bynum felt it necessary to retain Haddon, and at what point from initial contact, none of us knows. It could well be at the point that morning when the FBI didn't take over the investigation for lack of jurisdiction because their assessment via BPD was that this was not a legit kidnapping. From that point, whenever it was, the parents are the automatic first suspects and would benefit from legal representation under Miranda.

I would not be surprised at all if the lawyer-calls from the Ramseys started WAY before the 911 call was placed, but disagree that it would take many, many hours to get everything in place. I guess I'm just not articulating it clearly that I would expect those calls from them, believing in their guilt. And I don't find it hinky that Bynum could be reached while on vacation. I've reached lawyers on airplanes, boats, in Europe, Hawaii, at all hours of the day and night, by cell, land line and fax. You especially know that those of us in the business live for it -- the law is a jealous mistress. Bynum is/was a close friend and JR had a dependency established on him already. And I don't think it's hinky that Bynum would have contacted Haddon, another good friend, to line up representation. I strongly suspect that the reason JR disappeared for a couple hours was to have a confab with Haddon via cell away from Arndt's cop ears. It was shortly after his return that the body suddenly appeared out of nowhere and FW got the call from Bynum. I don't know your sources, but trust your judgment certainly.

What interests me is how Bynum and JR felt so much threat from FW that he got summoned to Bynum's office (when he was out of town?) so quickly and was told to stay out of it. FW must have been voicing a lot of opinions throughout the day. I also suspect he had a little chat with Burke when the kid was at the Whites, and probably learned quite a bit about activities in the Ramsey household that night.

And while we're on the subject, as you mentioned, JR's employment with Lockheed Martin, the largest gov't. contractor, is certainly a factor in this. LM, I discovered through my own sources, provides security to its execs, a fact surely known by JR. Why didn't he call LM Security that morning, if for nothing else, at least to provide security for the rest of his family? I believe this is telltale to the fact that JR knew the kidnapping wasn't legit.

 

I have always wondered how the R's had the presence of mind to call in so many friends to assist in contaminating the crime scene. Now I wonder if they called in friends to provide an excuse for the lawyer calls. To spin the lawyer calls they can now say "we called all our good friends in our hour of need." The fact that the other folks they called innocently destroyed evidence by cleaning up, etc, was just a bonus.

 

I have a question.

If there are phone records that Bynam and others were called prior to the 911 call, why is Boulder wasting money with this investigation? Everything the Ramseys said about their morning is now null and void.

The handcuffs should have been all shined up and ready. A fur trimmed orange jumpsuit for a special ex Miss West Virginia.

I am not doubting it happened. I think there was alot that went on before 911 called. It's just my lil ole opinion.

But I want to know why this charade continues if there were phone records. Or did they go in a paper shredder somewhere? Or get "crashed" off the phone companies computer? Just lil ole me wondering.

Of course, what I say is just lil ole me's opinion.