Breaking it down

OK, I see your point here. So where do you think the blow happened? On a hard surface? In the basement, maybe on the carpet? Or do you think she was upright at the time of the blow, from the angle demonstrated by Dr. Werner in the picture? You have some good insight into this kind of thing, so thanks for responding.

OK, now you're just poking fun, too.... :gum:

So are you saying that the urine outside the cellar door could have been from a seizure instead of death? So maybe the head blow happened in the basement, as well? That would put JB getting herself tied up in her bed with the cord, either at the neck or wrists, but conscious and not fighting. In that case, that would point to her knowing the killer and not being afraid, right?

I was looking for some information on the black pants in DOI and that is EXACTLY what I was thinking. At the end, Patsy is all about MEMEMEMEME. John writes this sanctimonious tirade about how horribly they've been abused, their innocence now dead. Oh, it was classic Ramsey: notice how many people the Rams attack here, how many descriptors are used, how many words...and HOW MANY ARE DEVOTED TO THE KILLER:

Can you believe this? Here we are, over 9 years later, searching for the killer, every day, still plugging away, exploring, researching, trying to put the evidence together, debating this and that because WE CARE, cussing the system that failed a murdered child, looking at pictures of her horribly damaged body, reading awful stuff that is heartwrenching to know...all so someone can witness for JonBenet when she has been completely abandoned by every single person who should be responsible for holding this vigil, not us.

And John Ramsey and Patsy Ramsey have the nerve to criticize everyone in detail, but barely mention THE KILLER who took JonBenet's life, ENDED HER FUTURE before she even had a past. JonBenet is the only one who lost her innocence. If her own parents don't care enough to know what happened to her and demand she get justice, then it's damn small of them to whine about those who do!

 

Thanks, matey! I actually tried to find it in DOLie myself, even used ACR's index, but no go. I had forgotten the main principal the Rams used to write their book: never tell anything that might reveal the truth about this murder.

Then I got caught up in re-reading stuff, cause it's been so long, and I know things now I didn't know then. How ignorant do you have to be to fall for their song and dance act? :beersign:

 

Thanks, JC, I needed that. :sunny:

 

Oh, now that's an interesting thought, Cranberry. The cord, maybe the duct tape, was bought at the hardware store and then packaged in a paper sack! How common for small hardware stores, especially 10 years ago. Then when the cord was pulled out, the bag fibers clung to the cord and fell off the cord into the bed when it was brought to the bed to cut. Darn, I think you've got something we can chew on here.

That would also mean the cord was from a new roll. I know Thomas gave the receipt at McGuckin's as possible evidence of the cord and/or duct tape being bought by Patsy because the costs for these items were the same as items listed on the receipt that belonged to Patsy, but the name of the items were not listed on it, so it wasn't much proof alone.

Oh. Now you've made me think of where that bag was if Patsy had bought the stuff, and then had to go get it. In the kitchen? In the basement? Butler's kitchen where she kept her paint tray until LHP took it downstairs that Christmas? See how this works out: remember the paring knife found on the washing machine? I could not figure out for the life of me why Patsy or even an intruder would go downstairs and get the paring knife from the kitchen. Didn't make sense. Especially when Burke's swiss knife ended up in the cellar, possibly with duct tape glue on it, and that came from the cabinet in the wash area outside JB's room. Dear god, no wonder we can't follow what happened in that house that night. They were all over the place.

So let me think this through: head blow happens wherever; JonBenet is in her bed and the killer gets the cord and cuts it over the bed. So if Patsy/John ran downstairs to get the cord from the bag where it'd been bought recently, if it was in the kitchen area/butler kitchen area, why not grab a paring knife to cut it with? Back upstairs, the cord sheds paper bag fibers onto the bed when it's pulled out and cut. But maybe the paring knife won't work well, takes a lot of sawing. Patsy said she was in the cabinet that afternoon, packing for the Big Red Boat trip, and pulled out the diapers from that same cabinet where Burke's knife was hidden by LHP. Maybe she saw the knife. So she goes to the cabinet, pulls out the knife, leaving the door open and the diapers hanging in her haste and panic.

OK, I know this is like a novel, isn't it? But every single thing in that story came from weaving together the exact evidence and testimony of these people themselves, as told to LE. So maybe it's fiction. But it is possible. Holmes said eliminate the impossible, and whatever remains, however improbable, is the truth.

There's also the matter of cutting the plastic security tie on the bag of Bloomies that day, which is where the over sized underwear JonBenet was wearing came from, the Wednesday panties. Another poster once said that might be what the kitchen paring knife was used to cut open. So that would be another opportunity for two knives to cross paths that night.

I don't know if this is how it went, obviously, but I have always felt that the various out of kelter condition of things in the area of JonBenet's bedroom resulted from the murder that night. Even Smit felt that. JAR's bathroom drawers left open, like someone was looking in them in a hurry, a bag of rope left in the middle of the floor nobody will claim, a dust ruffle disturbed, as if someone looked under it, maybe for the bag of rope. The bed in JAR's room covered in clothes and a suitcase to pack. The laundry area cabinet door open and diapers hanging out, a knife on the washer--who leaves a knife on the washer where a six year old sleeps? JonBenet's bed is a mess, with the pillow at the foot, her pink pj top lying at the top, and a sweater half off the bed at the bottom, the curtain pulled out of its tie behind the bed, hair ties scattered on the floor, dirty pants and undies in the floor, the toilet not flushed.

I mean, I know a busy season and kids can make for a messy house, but when a child ends up dead in that house under such circumstances as we know, all the out of sorts stuff in this area bothered me. Patsy spent time on the 25th packing in that area. She and JonBenet had an argument about clothes that afternoon in that area. An argument about JonBenet wearing a sweater, Patsy said. John said the sweater on the bed looked like Patsy's. Patsy said the pj top on the bed was the one JonBenet wore Christmas Eve and had been under her pillow.

And now we know that night, JonBenet had someone cut cord over her bed there, cord that later was found on her dead body, around her neck and wrists.

Well, this is quite some little idea you've given me, Cranberry. I'll have to think about it.

Also, you mentioned JB's coat was in the jag? I didn't know that. May I ask for a source? Because I have looked and looked at the crime scene pictures...for the black velvet pants, coat and boots! I have never seen them. I wish Why_Nut would read this, I bet she knows. Oh Why Oh Why_Nut.... offtheair:

 

Hang on...hang on....

So the duct tape could have been in the bag in JAR's room with the rope? That could be where bag fibers came from, as Judge Carnes seemed to be so sure. But why would those bag fibers be in JB's bed? The rope was way too big to be tied around a child's neck! But if the duct tape came from that bag, then that would explain it.

And didn't we learn in the LE interviews that the ROPE in JAR's room in the bag had TAPED ENDS?

Don't suppose those taped ends would be DUCT TAPE, would they?

No, it just cannot be that simple. Patsy claims she doesn't know nothing 'bout no rope.

I know I'm a simple woman, and my house is one third the size of the Boulder manse, but I have to tell you, I know every item in every room in my house. I might have to hunt from room to room or drawer to drawer from time to time, but when you show it to me, I darn well know it's ours, it's someone else's, or it's not supposed to be there and I'll swear to it in court!

So when something is found in her house and Patsy denies it, I perk up, especially if it makes NO SENSE for it to belong to an intruder who would really look stupid dragging a bag of rope around for no logical reason when he's too worried about getting caught by LE to even bring the darn ransom note with him.

There was some big dance around the topic of the rope when Patsy was questioned about it. The way the ends were taped, Patsy said oh, no, never saw that. John MELTS his rope ends on his boat, but no, no taping.... Yeah. Right.

I have hunted that darn rope picture down about a hundred times through the years. I remember looking at the taped ends. I remember now that they looked black, much like duct tape. But I may be misremembering. I'll have to see what I can find tomorrow if nobody rescues me here with a handy organized file picture. ray:

So maybe the cord was not in that bag with the rope and duct tape. Maybe the killer did have to go get it from the kitchen, or garage, or even from the BASEMENT PAINT TRAY. Or craft box. There were clear plastic boxes in the basement with ribbon in them, I saw that in a picture just last year. Maybe the cord was in there. And maybe on the way back, the kitchen knife was retrieved.

This is speculation. Saying that right out. But I work like this because a bunch of disconnected clues and evidence is not a lot of help if it doesn't lay out what happened, is it? People aren't smoke. They have to think, move, act, react. There is a trail. I'm just trying to follow it as best as I can with nothing more than a lot of half-truths, lies, and a little actual evidence we can trust.

What I don't understand is why LE in Boulder hasn't been able to do this long before now. They have everything they need to do so. 9 years. No excuse.

 

My hubby binds rope ends with a very fine cord - my father did too. However, that takes time and cut rope would unfurl pretty quickly if it isn't secured - so putting a piece of tape around it is often used as a temporary measure. This isn't rocket science and there is no reason to suppose that the Ramseys would do any differently.

This need for distance from every tiny aspect of the case grows tiresome. It becomes unbelievable ... and (dare I say it?) - suspicious.

The Yorkshire Ripper killed over a dozen women. When he was caught, he confessed to about 12 of the killings - but flatly denied one which had always been attributed to him. Investigators took his denial seriously because he confessed to the rest. There was nothing special or different about the murder he denied - no motive for him to lie about it. He was going down for life anyway so he would have had nothing to lose.

If he had denied everything, he wouldn't have been believed.

The Ramsays and their supporters are hellbent on distancing the couple from all aspects of the case - from the pineapple to the movie "Ransom" ("I saw it but the sound was turned off - so I couldn't possibly be influenced by any of the words...")

I have watched Speculator and Beth and Why_Nut and DocG argue make perfectly logical arguments over yonder - and what happens? The "locals" attack the posters. Someone was recently accused of not being "Jonbenet friendly" - after making only a handful of perfectly polite posts.

Dave insults DocG - that's OK. DocG insults Dave - DocG gets a warning.

It's the same old story - except that these loony liberal folks (who believe that anyone who gets accused of murder MUST be innocent by default) seem oblivious to the fact that the world is watching them - and judging them.

I wonder what the Ramseys think of this tiny little bunch of supporters who prove time and time again that they cannot see the woods for the trees and who appear to believe that there is no need for evidence as long as the ramseys say they didn't do it?

 

“There was some big dance around the topic of the rope when Patsy
was questioned about it. The way the ends were taped, Patsy said
oh, no, never saw that. John MELTS his rope ends on his boat, but
no, no taping.... Yeah. Right.

I have hunted that darn rope picture down about a hundred times
through the years. I remember looking at the taped ends. I
remember now that they looked black, much like duct tape. But I
may be misremembering. I'll have to see what I can find tomorrow
if nobody rescues me here with a handy organized file
picture.(KK)

I think the rope of which you speak is only an incidental.
However, tape, burn, wrap, etc. is a variable of type and
circumstance. The tape I used to use was called “tar tape.â€
Later, I switched to “electricians’ tape.†Synthetics such as
nylon, rayon, and polyester frazzle when cut. The stopper is to
burn to melt the frazzle together. In fact, when making numerous
sections of nylon cord, rather than cut with a knife, I set up a
blowtorch and burn the cord in two taking care of cutting and
sealing at the same time.

This will not work for Manila or any other natural fiber rope.
Tying the end in a knot is one way to stop the unraveling. Taping
is another. Another way is wrap the end with a small cord. I have
also used fine copper wire for this purpose. If I make the rope
from individual strings of material, I can double the end back
and weave it into the main body eliminating tape, wrapping and
knot. (It’s lot of trouble, so rarely do this.)

Hope this helps.

 

another possibilty

If there really were rope fibers in the bed maybe the rope wasn't cut over the bed but just the knife used to cut the rope was layed down momentarily on the bed. The paper bag fibers could have come from the bag of clothes that were later found elsewhere in the house.
Maybe the package of bloomies was in it and after taking a pair out the rest were put back in the undie drawer. If it was Patsy that did it she would have to make it appear that those undies were in the bathroom with the rest of the undies. I believe I had read the sack of clothes were children's clothes that were to be given to someone else. It never made sense to me that the larger bloomies were in with JBR's undies. I know Patsy or somebody said JBR didn't want to give them up but Patsy could have just put them with the other clothes to be given away and thought JBR wouldn't think about them being gone.
If the same knife was used to cut cord and the tie to the bloomies package then laid on the bed it could have fibers from the bag and the cord on it.

In one of her interviews Patsy identifies a pair of pants that were on the floor of JB's room as JB's pants and I always thought they were the black pants she wore that evening.

 

Here's the rope from John Andrew's room.

http://truthlinepictures.tripod.com/ramsey/rope.html

If the duct tape matched, we'd know. But it show's Patsy/John lied about ever taping the ends of rope.

There's some sort of fall/Halloween picture of Burke with rope I remember seeing - maybe from the Enquirer?

 

Wombat,

Patsy would say it was John Andrew's rope and she was talking about their own rope for the boat. Any bets?

 

I thought the same thing about the cord fibers too, Texan. And that is a very interesting point you brought up about the paper bag fibers. There was a brown paper bag with children's clothes in it found by Det. Arndt that morning just outside John's study and she moved the bag to the mud room. A brown paper bag with children's clothes in it. A suitcase with a semen-stained blanket/duvet and a children's Dr. Seuss book inside. I wonder if these two items could be symbolic representations of the brown paper bag and attache mentioned in the note.

-Tea

 

I didn't even know, until just recently, that there was blood found on her nightgown, however we don't know where or how much. My guess is that it is miniscule compared to the blood stain in her underwear.

Okay. I just had a thought. What if the wounds on her back are direct bleeds on to her nightgown? What if she had actually been in her nightgown that night?

-Tea

 

In Patsy's 6/98 interview (line 0339) they are looking at photo's (photo 63) and Patsy points out JonBenet's coat in the Jag. Trip Demuth asks her if it is the coat she wore that night and Patsy responds yeah, I think so. Help please Why_Nut I don't know how to copy over from ACR site...Thank you ACandy Rose. So much good info there. And thank you KoldKase, I was thinking along the same line of thoughts of what could be the sack fibers - you say it so much better.

 

You mean this exchange.

TOM HANEY: Photo 63.

PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.

TRIP DEMUTH: Which vehicle did you take to the lake, was that the white Jaquar, is that what that is?

PATSY RAMSEY: (Inaudible). Yeah, I'm almost sure. Yeah, I think it is. And there is JonBenet's coat back there.

TRIP DEMUTH: Is that the coat she wore that night?

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I think so.

 

Thank you Why_Nut!

 

"I have watched Speculator and Beth and Why_Nut and DocG argue make perfectly logical arguments over yonder - and what happens? The "locals" attack the posters. Someone was recently accused of not being "Jonbenet friendly" - after making only a handful of perfectly polite posts.

Dave insults DocG - that's OK. DocG insults Dave - DocG gets a warning.

It's the same old story - except that these loony liberal folks (who believe that anyone who gets accused of murder MUST be innocent by default) seem oblivious to the fact that the world is watching them - and judging them.

I wonder what the Ramseys think of this tiny little bunch of supporters who prove time and time again that they cannot see the woods for the trees and who appear to believe that there is no need for evidence as long as the ramseys say they didn't do it?"

It's all ridiculous.

 

Thanks for all the info and input, guttahites. Sorry I got lost this weekend--had grandma duty.

I'm going to respond to these out of order, sort of work my way through them.

So JB's coat was in the jag THAT MORNING? I am assuming that the pics shown to Patsy were crime scene pics, right? (I'll look it up in the book, and thanks for the quotes, Cranberry and Why Nut.) So...just how did John take JB's coat off in her bedroom? I remember he said that at one point, did he not? Is that going to turn out to be ANOTHER coat? Not the one she wore to the White's house?

 

KK, You're right. Ramsey's DOI page 9.

On the way home JonBenét had fallen asleep in the back seat. I got her out of the car and carried her upstairs to her room, laid her on the bed, and took off her coat and shoes. I was amazed at how sound asleep she was. It had been a long day for her. Patsy came in to finish getting JonBenét ready for bed.

................................

The Ramseys are confronted with their own lies.

 

As for the skull fracture, it'd take a h3ll of an arm to cause a fracture like that on a soft surface like a bed, so that place is out. John is a physical wuss. The floor of the basement is concrete, right, so there should be a bruise or fracture on the opposing side of the head if it were beaten upon while the child was lying with her head on the concrete...is that there?
I wouldn't doubt that she was in some sort of upright position when the blow occurred. If her head was on padded carpet, it would be harder to fracture the skull like that, but not impossible...then, where's the blood going to be? On the rug or carpet. Towels or other absorbents might have been used if it was planned out, but then if the initial blow occurred in the basement it would make the most sense to me. Was there any form of contralateral injury within or upon her head? If the blow caused a bleed, is there a contracoup injury to the brain found on autopsy? These are the questions that I would be asking about now.

Head blow, child voids while either seizing or becoming unconscious and losing control of a level of bodily function. Possible partial loss of airway or other symptoms of agonal breathing as it all progresses, and an (amateur) attempt to suffocate her in some way while she is unconscious.
If you've ever seen what someone can live through after a head injury, that stuff can go on for days until they're pronounced or start to improve and they don't necessarily pass away quickly. On the other hand, a child who loses their airway due to unconsciousness and the lack of ability to clear/guard their own airway, if left unaided, will get bradycardic and die from the respiratory insufficiency/arrest. The most common cause of cardiac arrest in kids is respiratory arrest preceding this event.