Burke or Bust!

Not sure this will help

This injury was the result of a fall with the head hitting a dresser corner (presumed.) This picture was taken within two hours after this head injury occured. The injury swelled out versus swelling into the brain. It's not easy to see, but the swelling was about the size of an average lemon. Blood rushing to the injured area is what causes swelling. This is an adult. A six year old's skull cap would be much softer.

For the record, the doctors were amazed that this person survived this injury. Had the swelling gone into the brain rather than coming outwards, the doctors stated it would have resulted in a fairly quick death.

 

Observations

I would agree that Burke probably is not normal due to the experiences he has endured in the last 6 years. I can't imagine what he has been going through.

As far as autism is concerned - "Abnormal introversion and egocentricity, acceptance of fantasy rather than reality," (American Heritage College Dictionary), I really never witnessed abnornal introversion with Burke. He played baseball, had friends......I don't think that describes an autistic child. I'm not an expert on the subject, though.

Can someone tell me if a child can become autistic or display autistic behaviors after experinecing a tragic event?

I did not see much of Burke in the last two years before the murder. PR had transferred Burke into another school, along with the children of Susan Stine and Roxy Walker. I had heard from one of them that they thought Burke was wierd, but I never personally experienced that.

In my expeience, Burke was a bit standoffish with adults. Shortly before the murder, PR and her kids sat with my family in a local restaurant. JBR and my daughter played with the ice cream machine, PR and my husband talked legal matters and Burke sat across from me and we had the most delightful conversation. I was really surprised with how "open" and playful he was. Most of the time, he seemed quiet and preoccupied.

The last time I did see him was the notorious visit to Susan Stine's house. As I was preparing to leave, I walked into the den to retrieve my daughter, who was playing with Burke and his friends. I walked up to Burke and stretched out my arms to signal a hug, which I usually did with him. Normally he would hug me back, but this time, he stepped back and yelled at me, "Leave me alone, don't touch me!" I backed up and felt terrified. I looked at all the adults in the room: PR, Nedra, PR's dad, Susan Stine and waited for a response from them to calm down or say something of reassurance to Burke. No one said a word, they stood there like statues. Feeling extrremely uncomfortable with the situation, I left. I'll never forget the terror in his eyes.

 

thanks, cookie

Cookie - Thanks for the info. What you described doesn't really sound like autism to me either. Nothing I've ever heard has, for that matter, but there are variations in autistic folks' behavior.

Post-murder changes might include some behaviors that would also be found in autism, I suppose, but I don't think the diagnosis would be autism, even so. When the abnormal behavior develops at that late a point in life after normal development, I'm pretty sure there'd be a different diagnosis.

That last encounter makes me wonder what he might have heard said about you. Sounds like he might have been afraid or angry for some reason. But that's assuming this was not his typical mode of behavior with other folks at that time, of course.

 

Re: Thanks

Strange the Ramseys ushered Burke out of the house
very fast before the police got the chance to question him. A detective had to go to Fleet White's house later in the afternoon to talk to him.

His young sister is found murdered, and he's ushered away from his parents, when maybe this child could have done with some comfort from them.
All John Ramsey could think of was escaping when he phoned his pilot and told him he would be taking off about 4:00 pm and who was going to be with him. What on earth was he going to do with JonBenét's body lying under a Christmas tree?
Leave her in the hands of the police. This is strange behaviour.

Of course, Detective Larry Mason told him he wasn't going anywhere, and arrangements were being made for him to go to a hotel, but John Ramsey was calling the shots. He asks for extra time, and tells them "No! They won't be going to a hotel, but to the Fernie's home." Mason stupidly gives in to him when he should have hauled him and Patsy down to the station for a statement. JR was an excellent business man and he handled this as if it was another business transaction. He ran rings around the BPD.

To crown it all, the BPD allows Pam Paugh wearing a BPD jacket in a BPD car to go to theRamsey home and take out two carloads of items, not just clothes for the funeral. All that evidence walked out the door. Who's running the show here? The Ramseys!

 

Cookie some friends of mine are friends with a former employee of the Rs and this employee, I'll call her Joanne, said something similar about Burke. She said that she loved him, but that as he got older he would not tolerate a third person in any conversation he was having with someone. Say if you and Burke were talking, and I walked up and tried to join in, he would yell "I AM NOT TALKING TO YOU." She said he just started doing this and it was more out of brattiness than fear or anything. Joanne also said it embarrassed Patsy.

This same friend said Burke and Jonbenet were caught several times, uhhh, experimenting, as kids do, to the point where they weren't allowed to be alone together in Charlevoix that last summer. I've always wondered if maybe this playing doctor might have accounted for the vaginal abrasions. Who knows.

I asked a question of you on the "Fly thread" when you get a minute.

For the record, this employee liked Patsy okay but absolutely adored JR. She spoke of several things JR did for her, both financially and otherwise, which were extremely nice. I think maybe the JR we see today is a very different animal.

 

Oh Cookie

How that must have stung. The terrified look you say he had in his eyes tells us that this was not a moment of brattiness.

Wow BobC - have you shared all of that inside scoop before? And thank you for being you - a source that we know we can trust!

 

Elle, I don't understand any of the stuff that went on with those cops after this happened. Especially Pam's raid on the house, with the BPD's blessing. I still think evidence was taken out with her. And, JR telling the cops that "He doesn't know anything" after the cops asked to talk to Burke. Hell, he could have heard something that night. He could have mentioned if JB was being stalked by a strange man or whatever. Nope, just whisk him right out of there with Burke only being concerned about his Game Boy or whatever he got for Xmas. Not one word about "why are the cops here, why is mommy crying, why aren't we going to MI," just waltzes right outta there.

BobC, I had heard rumors about JB & Burke playing doctor before. I believe it was tabs, but still, they weren't all wrong when reporting on this case. Thank you for sharing this with us. I had no idea that JB & Burke could not be together while in Charleviox. Was this at a camp or something or who banned them from being together? John & Patsy? Very interesting. Of course hir always says this is just a rumor and not true, whenever people bring up that people DID witness them playing doctor.

 

that was never in the tabs to the best of my knowledge. Little kids are little kids and I'm glad the tabs showed some restraint in not reporting this (that I can recall). I'm just saying employee said--and it was said in a very respectful way. "Joanne" was terrified that if any of this ever came out in the media, that she would not be allowed to ever see Burke again.

 

Litlle kids being kids

Playing doctor is normal among kids of a certain age. IMHO, there is nothing to hide nor be ashamed of if in fact this is true. It's just kids being kids and they are naturally curious. I do think this tends to be more likely at 4-6 than at 8-9 but perhaps Burke was a late "bloomer."

 

Bob C

Bob, correct me if I am wrong, but I think ST said in his book when talking about enhancing the 911 tape that Burke could be heard in the background and that JR said sharply to him,

We're not talking/speaking to you or something like that?

Could that be why Burke (if the story is true) is saying this to others, he is acting out in someway over the way he was treated that day by his dad before anyone got there.

I may be totally confused, its late here. I will try tomorrow to look in my ST paperback and find the exact quote of what JR was heard to say on the enhanced tape of the 911 call.

EDITED: I had to find out! lol. Bottom of Page 14 and top of 15 of the paperback:

"Her husband was heard to bark, "We're not talking to you."

And in the background was a young-sounding voice: "What did you find?" It was JonBenet's brother, Burke....



In my opinion, Burke asking what did you find, indicates to me that he did not know what had happened.

Sounds like Burke is using the same words he heard spoken the day he found out his sister died. Can you imagine how scared he must have been and his dad is shouting at him like he is not important!

 

Wondering

If "I'm (We're) not talking to you," was used on more occasions than just the morning of 12/26/96. Children learn what they live and tend to treat others as they are treated.

I once worked with someone who purposely turned his back to anyone who walked up to him when he was involved in a conversation, if he didn't want them to join in and they had the "audacity," to intrude. It was a very effective maneuver for him, by the way, and people learned in a very curt (and embarrassing if seen by others) manner never to intrude on his conversations. I personally felt it was very rude considering he didn't care who was interrupting nor why. He even did this when he was shooting the breeze and someone had an urgent business question for him.

When I first read that statement from John, it reminded me of this man and how cold he was to others. My impression of him is that he felt his time was far more valuable than that of anyone else. Very egotistical, IMHO.

 

Nikeo--I meant that the abrasions may have been caused by burke previous to to the night of the murder. As Fly points out, the evidence is all over the place and the evidence of vaginal penetration is there, but it is slight, at least in terms of what real sexual predators do. The evidence of a rage attack, on the other hand, is enormous--the blow to the head alone showed intense rage. There are elements of overkill here, which points to a rage killing so why the minor signs of a sexual assault? Was there even a sexual assault or were the bruises to the vagina part of a rage attack?
\
Nikeo I am in complete agreement that Burke didn't know ANYTHING about what happened that night. Sorry if I was unclear. JR couldn't wait to get Burke out of the house that morning--and control freak JR would never have let him out of his sight if he knew anything. Now, Burke certainly knew they were up and upset, but not much beyond that.

JR I agree that playing doctor is normal. Absolutely. All I'm saying is that if this kind of normal stuff came out in the press, it would have been blown out of proportion and made to look ugly. If anything, Burke playing doctor with JBR would be in the Ramsey's favor, maybe laying the whole sexual abuse thing to rest . But once again--the whole thing is ambiguous.

 

Right On!

Bob C - Email me and I will tell you of another "Doctor" incident. I am hesitant to mention this on a public forum.

For Fly - look at PR's and JR's behaviors, not what they said, but what they did, once friends and cops began arriving at the house. Do their actions, at all, bespeak of innocent people?

They whisked Burke away, so the cops could not interview him! It appeared that they were "concerned" parents and wanted Burke out of the fray, but I believe it was a calculated move.

Look at what they did to the crime scene. I believe they purposefully invited all sorts of people to the house that morning to bring confusion to the situation.

Did the phone call from the kidnappers ever come? Were PR and JR hanging desperately by the telephone waiting for the call from the kidnappers? Of course not, there were no kidnappers!

 

BobC

You were very clear in what you posted! I always enjoy your posts.

What I found amazing was the story about the former employee of JR that said that Burke said to her "I'm not speaking to you!"

If Burke is using that term, like JR (our moderater) posted, he has heard it many times before and most importantly, it backs up what Steve Thomas reported in his book about what was heard on the enhanced 911 tape.

To be honest, I had a hard time with the enhanced 911 tape. But since you posted what you did, I totally believe that is what they heard on that tape.

I think theyshould try to find this ex-employee and ask her more questions about Burke saying those almost exact words to her. I

I don't really understand Patsy and John lying about Burke not being up that morning? My guess is that they knew he did not know anything except that there was something wrong and did not want him involved with the police and all the comotion.

How in the world have they kept that kid all these years from finally telling someone that he was up that morning during the 911 call?

 

weak, and subject to interpretation

cookie - Sorry, but most of those "suspicious" things you mentioned don't impress me much. They are too subject to interpretation. You take a very negative view, but there is a real possibility that isn't the correct interpretation.

I find the fact that they would call over friends right away pretty hard to explain. It doesn't make good sense, and it isn't something I'd ignore. But I also recognize that people do truly stupid things when highly emotional or stressed.

Sending Burke away doesn't bother me. There's much too much chance that could be done for innocent reasons, IMO. And as I recall, it didn't stop the police from interviewing him later that day.

As to the non-reaction to no on-time ransom call.... the note WAS ambiguous as to when "tomorrow" might be. Also, if they were guilty and it was all a scam, wouldn't it make more sense for them to have made a big deal about it - to look more innocent? If they had the presense of mind to set up a phoney kidnapping scenario and acted the good guys, wouldn't their acting plans include getting upset when the call didn't come? In other words, what you'd expect if they were truly innocent should apply if they are only acting innocent. Again, too many possibilities, no clear answer. Might be significant, might not.

I'm not saying these should be ignored completely, but just that they are too ambiguous to carry much weight.

 

What If?

What if your child had been kidnapped? What would you do?

 

Cookie

I am curious as to why your friendship with the Ramseys came to an end? What happened to turn you so against them or them against you?

It is totally none of my business, but just curious.

I know you think they had something to do with JB's death, but is that the only reason your friendship ended?

If I had a friend who I thought may have had something to do with their child's death, I don't honestly know if I could remain friends with them either.

 

who knows?

cookie - I don't think any of us <i>really</i> knows what we'd do. We're answering that question based on our current state of clear-headedness and no emotion. We know what we think we'd do, or what we hope we'd do, but not necessarily what we actually would do. That said...

I doubt I'd call in friends right away. I would call the cops. I'd hope I'd insist on some stealth, but given the state of anxiety I'd surely be in, I can't say with confidence that I'd be thinking carefully enough to think of that. I'd probably get my other kid out of the situation, but again, who knows? I'd probably be upset at the no-call, but then, if I'd set up a scam, I'd act upset then too.

One of the most realistic things the Ramseys said about that morning was JR's comment that went something like, "and then I ran around the house a little bit." Boy, that sounds like the real deal to me.

 

Nikeo--okay I see what you're saying. The wierd part is that this info from "Joanne" came wwwaaaaaay before the Enquirer printed the 911 tape story and to be honest I never made the connection until you pointed it out. Whew! Good catch.