Burke Ramsey... the missing link

I wasn't trying to be nasty. Years ago, if people didn't quite fit into "normal" (you notice I put it in quotes to emphasize that normal is a concept not a reality), they could be called "quirky," "different," or "unusual." I brought up Asperger's b/c I am very interested in this type of thing. Of course, when you are interested in something and read a lot about it, you tend to see it more than others do. I have a son with "ADHD," which is also a created syndrome, and basically means he cannot succeed in the type of education we have now without a lot of adaptation on his part. God created him just the way he is and for a reason, not to be medicated out of it. He is like our Steve Irwin (God rest his beautiful soul) and most of the time, we love him for it.

People who just love math do not qualify for any diagnosis (at least I hope not, because I love math too!). But autism is real and it comes in different strengths. Asperger's used to be called "high-functioning autism." I am sorry if I offended you.

We don't have to discuss this any more. And I wasn't trying to be nasty.

 

You weren't nasty!! I'm not offended!! Well, maybe I'm offended by the guy who dreamed this stuff up, but not you!!

 

After reading the symptoms of Aspergers on line, I am now convinced that everyone at the swamp has it.

 

I have taught four boys who were diagnosed with Aspergers over the years and I'm glad to say that we have sufficient knowledge and understanding of the condition nowadays to cope with it in mainstream. Of the four I've taught, I'd say that only 2 were possibly genuine and the other two were misdiagnosed. A fifth boy almost certainly had Aspergers and was undiagnosed because his parents refused to have him labelled. It's a pity when that happens because labels can be enormously beneficial in getting the pupil, the support that he/she needs.

I doubt Burke has Aspergers - he may show some traits, but many of US do (yes I include myself in there!)

I recently taught a boy with Aspergers for three years on the trot and he was a delight. I stuck to the guidelines for teaching him and we had no problems at all. Aspergers don't like changes to schedule and they like their environment to remain constant. So we let them keep the same desk which may be slightly isolated from the rest to allow them to have some space. We don't force them to participate in group projects - or if they do, we select their team-mates carefully. We make sure we tell them what we're going to do next - and then we stick to the plan. They often don't understand jokes because they take things very literally so jokes need to be explained.

Recently, a friend of mine called me to tell me that her 4 year old may have Aspergers. I wasn't surprised because I suspected it myself but it wasn't my place to say. I was able to reassure her that my personal experience of teaching pupils with Aspergers has been positive and rewarding.

Incidentally, not all Aspergers are high functioning. My definitely-genuine Aspergers boy struggled with most subjects althougb he could do some amazing memory tricks and could tell you anything you ever wanted to know about the subject of his obsession

 

High functioning? I must have missed that part when I read the symptoms. I take back what I said about the swamp. None of them is high functioning.

 

LOL ... it's okay Wombat. We LOVE people who LOVE math!!! I'm even married to one!

I understand completely what you're saying. I agree that in order to explain the spectrum of human behavior, there has been a tendency to try to overanalyze and quantify differences in personality that are just that ... differences.

I also agree that we don't KNOW if Burke has Asperger's or not. It's difficult to know the truth about Burke because most of what we do know has come through the lips of Patsy and John, known liars and tellers of tales made to put them in a good light.

If Burke DID ask questions and cry his eyes out, we would not have heard anything about it from Patsy and John who always tried to put the "perfect face" on everything. I am convinced that Burke was coached by Patsy to give minimal answers before his interview with the psychologist. She may have warned him that "they" were trying to get information from him to help trap mommy and daddy, so it was best not to say much of anything.

 

I have always wondered about Burke... he was there, he HAS to know something.

I don't think anyone could've slept through the whole thing without hearing a sound... there was so much going on, so much movement and whispering... how could he not hear anything?

Perhaps Burke was even present when the first blow was dealt... I'm sure he knows who did it and its just a matter of time until he gathers up the strength to speak out and avenge his sister, I know I would.

 

I agree WY!!!! LOL

 

Dear Wombat:

I find your apparent defensiveness of Burke Ramsey in regard to suggestions that he could possibly have suffered or suffers from marginal autism or Asperger's to explain his seemingly odd behavior at the time of the tragedy and afterwards, to be bizarre in context.

Let's see, we have people here and elsewhere accusing one or both of his parents of murder; one or both of his parents as accessories after the fact; both his parents of trying to cast suspicion at innocent people, including former friends and business associates; and, oh yes, even a relatively small minority of folks who accuse the boy himself of murder, not to mention the tabloids who virtually labeled him a psycho at all of age twelve!

Yet, you apparently find it offensive when people trying to take up for the boy by way of exculpation merely offer a possible logical explanation to explain the boy's apparently bizarre lack of interest in such dramatic events within his own house, and seemingly ice-cold lack of emotion towards the murder of his own sister.

Someone once thought that I was Jewish. I have no idea why he thought this, as my surname is not particularly associated with Jewish people, and my appearance (fair complexion, blondish hair and blue eyes) is not one normally associated with ethnically Jewish people. However, I did not "take offense" at his misconception. Why would I? Such would be offensive to Jewish people, would it not? Likewise, for you to find it offensive that someone might incorrectly merely speculate that BR might suffer from Asperger's or marginal autism, seems to me offensive to people that actually do, if such a speculation is incorrect.

No, of course most "geeks" (as someone put it) do not suffer from any mental or personality syndrome. No one said they did. However, when a child is awakened in a morning two hours or so after he was supposed to have been, is told by his father that instead of going to Michigan as planned, he was going over to a friend's house; walks right through his house full of people and police!-- all without asking what was going on, one must search for some explanation.

Other aspects of his behavior that day and its aftermath, suggesting an unnatural lack of curiosity concerning the momentous events in the life of his family that terrible day, and a seemingly cavalier attitude towards the loss of a childhood sibling; combined with unusually sophisticated forms of expression for a child that age, might well suggest Asperger's, which is certainly a more chartable attribution to him than others one might consider.

As I said on another thread, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the child later cried his eyes out--but in private. Except for his physical appearance, he seems Ramsey through and through, and such is the Ramsey way. Such people rarely give outward expression to their emotions. The inherited traits towards reserve and aloofness might have simply reached a climax with Burke. As I inquired on the other thread, where is the boundry line between a tendency and a condition or syndrome?

 

I think John Mark Karr knows more about what went on that night than Burke does.

 

Aspergers is not a fad, it is a part of the Autism spectrum. People with Autism behave, learn and live different than that of neurotypicals. Having the diagnosis is a major hurdle in having the best life possible for those who are Autistic. Ony when you know what you are facing can you overcome and compensate.

You shouldn't be so scornful of the progress being made with Autism and the different aspects to it.

BYW, I was reading The Autism perspective (a magazine, I believe it's online too) anyway it was a person with Asperbergers who helped Dick Clark recover from his stroke. There are quite a few books out written by people with Autism that are so helpful in understanding their world. I would recomend you learn a bit more before you belittle a very real diagnosis.

 

I didn't get the feeling that Wombat was belittling autism...but rather, making a comment as to judging and labeling Burke, based on so little evidence.

Children react differently to stress - and sometimes what the do belies any kind of logic or explanation, even without a syndrome atttached.

When my oldest was about 5, his little sister had a medical crisis that warranted an ambulance screaming up to our house. Prior to their arrival, he'd had to listen to his panic-stricken mother crying into the phone as she (me) attempted to open the tight-shut jaw and mouth of a little girl who wasn't breathing and was turning blue-grey around the lips. I admit it - I wasn't able to stay calm while the voice over the phone took me through what to do while the paramedics were getting to the house. Matter of fact, I was semi-hysterical - not a pretty sight.

By the time help arrived, my son was out on the lawn...and for want of a better term, all I can say is that he was twirling around, making some sort of sound that came close to a weird nervous, wild laughter! It's been many years ago now, but I just remember looking at him and KNOWING that something was off and wrong, but needing to be with my little girl at that time, as they took her by ambulance to the hospital. (My mom happened to be visiting so she took care of him while I went with my daughter.)

My son was a perfectly normal little boy who grew up to be an equally normal, wonderfully functioning adult. (He's 24 now.) But, if any one of you had seen his reactions during that period of time, I can only imagine you'd all be wondering about what was wrong with him mentally.

This son tended to be "off" during any time of keen stress and crisis in the family. It was just his way of processing trauma.

I personally think it's very possible Burke did see and hear a great deal. And instead of having parents who took him through the trauma and tried to help him get it out and deal with his fears etc...he no doubt, got told to shut his mouth and speak only what the family had approved as the "correct" version of that night's events. John and Patsy were complicit adults....but Burke was a little boy who was in the house when his baby sister was murdered.

I'm giving him a pass on his "weird" behavior. The poor kid has known unspeakable horror.

 

This is addressed to Wombat, Daniel, but I back up Wombat with her thoughts
in thinking that Burke suffers from some kind of disease, which makes him behave very strangely(?).

Detective Thomas stated that during Burke's interview, he would start beeping. This in itself is a sign of Tourette Syndrome when a child starts beeping in the middle of a conversation. My brother's grandson has it, and I was with him about six years ago, when he was exactly the same age as Burke was then (10). He beeped a lot in the middle of conversation. He just couldn't help it. So I'm thinking this may well be what Burke Ramsey has, and this is really a very trying disease for the caregivers. He has two younger sisters. and hates the one who is immediately under him with a passion. They could not leave them alone, in the same room with each other.

We have not heard enough about Buirke Ramsey. It has all been covered up.

 

"When I first read about this latest fad, Asperger's Syndrome, I laughed until the pens fell out of my pocket protector."


I don't think I imagined the belittling.

 

Freebird, Autism is VERY real and so is Aspergers. A horrible thing for both child and parents, albeit there are really bad cases of it..........and some not so bad.

Would you think that if Burke had this........he would be able to go to College .............? Just curious.

xxxxxxxxxxoooooo
mama

 

I think his birthday was only two weeks away, Cherokee. I remember reading somewhere (?), that the Ramseys had called a lawyer or a judge in the middle of the night, enquiring about the Colorado Law for children, which caused some speculation that this crime was Burke related. Hopefully someone will remember this. I'll try and research tomorrow. Not tonight. Too tired! Seemingly a child under 10 could not be charged with a crime.

Quite frankly I don't know how anyone could have found this out anyway (?).
I'll feel better if someone else states they do remember something.

 

Oh yeah, definetly, in fact I'm one of the people who thinks Burke could have Aspergers. His reactions were inappropriate imo and more inline with a person with Autism. But I wouldn't go out on a limb and say he has it, I just wouldn't be surprised.

 

Dear Elle:

"remember reading somewhere (?), that the Ramseys had called a lawyer or a judge in the middle of the night, enquiring about the Colorado Law for children, which caused some speculation that this crime was Burke related"

--This caused some speculation??? I would call that the mother of all understatements! "Oh, hi, judge, [lawyer or whatever]. This is John Ramsey. How's the wife and kids? Did you have a nice Christmas? It's two o'clock in the morning? Yeah, I guess it is. We were up late because of Christmas and all, and I thought I'd just give you a call. Well, while I have you, just out of idle curiosity, would you happen to know what's the minimum age to charge a kid with a crime in Colorado?"

Oh, come on!

 

Freebird, I apologize for offending you. I didn't intend to offend anyone.

From www.aspergers.com

In my business, building design and construction, there are many, many people who meet these criteria. I probably do. Engineering schools and the related professions are full of people like this.

I laughed when I first read about this syndrome, because I find it silly, from my point of view, to label these traits a "syndrome" or a "disorder," which can be seen a seen as stigmatizing, rather than a personality type. There is actually a small movement among Asperger's people to call their traits "neuroatypical behavior" rather than a syndrome.

Again from my point of view, look at it this way - Is there such a thing as "Tennyson's Syndrome," characterized by hyperverbosity, writing in metered rhythms, over-romanticism, over-emotionalism, aptitude for dance, and inability to do simple arithmetic. No, that's not a syndrome, even though it's sort of the opposite of Asperger's.

I just think we don't need to call people who think this way "disabled". That's all.

Also, I was not referring to autism as bogus in the post that started this off. Not at all.

Again, Freebird, I am sorry for offending you.

 

Actually, people who are "high-functioning" autistic can do very well in academia. For example, Temple Grandin (brilliant, articulate, has designed humane structures for animal care and slaughter - has a book titled "Animals in Translation"). Especially since they can have amazing memories for facts and figures.

With social relationships, they struggle, but as I always tell my sons "There are friends out there for everyone." If Burke has something more like Tourette's, that can be managed to some extent with medication. People who are more severely autistic live in their own world and would not be college material.

Heymom