Did duct tape come after garotte?

Wow, MissPriss/WhiteWolf, now I gotta' ask you something: are you the "Wolf" hat that says she/he has used a similar cord knotted handle--in hunting, dressing the kill, etc.?

I ask because I want to discuss the "rolling hitch" knot I believe is the actual knot used on the garrote handle, and that "Wolf" hat discussed this info at WS some time ago. I can't remember exactly which knot that person said it was, and at that time I was pondering if the knot was a knot used by climbers, but modified. Then I saw an actual cord knotted in the rolling hitch knot in a shadow box display at Bed, Bath and Beyond, and it lookes exactly like the one on the garrote, with some loops added around each side.

This shadow box display was for decoration; it was a group of SAILER'S KNOTS. AHA! says I. Then I remembered that some people have named other knots before, so I wanted to find out if this rolling hitch is the one others also felt were the right knot.

Anyhow...I didn't mean to leave the impression that Wecht was saying the suture lines in JB's head were where the crack was. Wecht was being asked about the Chandra Levy case when he said the magic word "artifact" in relation to a skull being separated vs fractured by a blow. It was all hypothetical anyhow. You know how Wecht loves to talk fast and share all he knows. I love him for that. But I seem to have misled some into thinking I was relating this to JB's skull fracture. I wasn't. Just goofing off about the "artifact" info. Sorry.

But thanks for all the info on "artifacts" and "sutures." Now, if you could only provide visual aides for those of us who have a visual learning preference--in other words, have to have a picture drawn for us.... I'm just kidding. I can find one myself when I recover from my wild weekend. Soon as I'm out of traction....

I'M KIDDING AGAIN. I'm really not IN traction. Just need to be....

And thanks, MPriss, for recapping all that evidence for us. It helps me when I get reminded of the facts vs all I've forgotten or misremembered.

I have never seen a picture of the duct tape WITH impressions. But it was BLACK DUCT TAPE. On the picture of it lying on the blanket, where Fleet White dropped it after picking it up when he went back downstairs after JB had been carried upstairs, the tape can be seen in a crime scene photo, white/light side up. That was discussed some months ago and that's when I went and bought some black duct tape, so I could see the light side, since in that photo none of the black can be seen.

But lip prints--never saw them published anywhere. Not that they weren't. I just never have seen them, only read about them in the books.

Hey, Lou...the killer wore gloves...ya' think? LOL With one palm cut out?

And do y'all remember the one fingerprint lifted off JB's body? Her thigh or leg somewhere? I don't believe I remember anyone ever identifying that print. Does anyone else? This was brought up in Thomas' book. Should I look it up again?

Those dark fibers being matched by CBI, not matched by FBI...that really sticks in my craw. If they can't even get the evidence straight, how can we ever hope the killer will be caught?

 

Rolling Hitch

Yep, that was me who posted the knot information. The knot is a rolling hitch with extra added wraps on each side. I have used the knot to hang a deer from a tree branch when skinning the deer. Also, I've tied a rope to a large piece of branch so two people could drag the dead deer out of the woods (one person on each end of the branch).

As a sailor's knot, a couple of ways it can be used is to tie the line of one boat to the line of another boat or to tie a boat to a T shaped dock cleat. I would expect John, JAR, Melinda, Burke, and PATSY to have been able to tie the simple knot when they went boating. Anyone who has a boat knows the whole family becomes familiar with simple tasks on the boat, and they are expected to be part of the boat "crew".


I've also worked at a fish net factory (tied 1000's of knots, too) that made the nylon cord and rope used for nets and for macrame cord. If anyone has any questions about nylon cord, ask away.


MJenn, what do you think about there being no cord fibers on the tape, but cord fibers in JB's bed? I can't picture anyone trying to tie her up in her bedroom, and not putting the tape on her mouth at that time. The cord fibers would have been on the killer's hands or gloves because the cord had to be handled or cut before handling the tape. Who is going to come into JB's room, tape her mouth, then cut the cord to tie her?

 

order

Just for argument's sake, let's assume an intruder might be involved. If so, putting on tape before the restraints isn't too unreasonable. You'd want to keep her quiet, so a blow to the head, followed by tape on the mouth to ensure limited noise if she comes to while being tied up, is reasonable.

Edited to correct a typo

 

Re: order

Hi! I'm glad you flew over to join the discussion.

I agree your scenario is reasonable, if the kidnapper had then taken JonBenet out of the house, but the kidnapper didn't do that. IMO, the fiber evidence isn't where it's supposed to be to support all of that activity in her bedroom.

The kidnapper would have to hit JB while she slept on her stomach, then he would have to turn her over to place the tape on her mouth, and then bind her hands. Where was the cord and duct tape while he hit her on the head? Most likely in his pocket (light brown cotton lining?). If the cord was shedding enough fibers to be left on the bed, why weren't there any cord fibers on the tape (that was probably in his pocket with the tape)? I think any kidnapper worth his salt would have the cord precut with his own knife and in his pocket with the duct tape. Even if he used the paring knife found upstairs to cut the cord, he would still have to put the cord and tape in his pocket.

Maybe the kidnapper wore light brown cotton gloves while he was hitting her on the head, flipping her over to tape her mouth and tie her hands. He would still have to get the tape and cord out of his pocket to use them so I think it's even more likely there would have been cord fibers on the tape AND light brown cotton fibers on her bed.

Edited add more fiber evidence. There was light brown botton fibers on her BODY, but it wasn't specified it they were on her clothes

 

OH! WhiteWolf!

I can't believe it's you! A REAL WOMAN!! I have thought about you and your posts about the knot so often. Hunting, fishing...I swear, any woman who can go there in this man's world and JUST DO IT! has all my respect!

Anyhow, I was fixated on the Prusik knot back then, which does have an identical attachment element, but has a loop for the climber to put his/her foot to hoist him/herself up the rope. I am such a visually oriented person, I really had to see the rolling hitch for real to see how that's it. Once I did, I thought, OH NO!! I think this is the one WhiteWolf said, and now I can't find her! So I'm so glad you're still here!

Yeah, I've always believed that ALL the Ramseys know knots. You don't go sailing with the Fam and not learn that stuff. Your life depends on it. Water is deadly. So when I saw this knot in a sailor's collection, I said THAT'S IT! Yep, all roads lead to the Rams, never fails.

Then you add John refusing to admit he knows knots in his Wolf deposition: I mean, everytime the Rams start distancing themselves with their absurd denials...that's when I perk up. Like with the Mag-Lite, the paintbrush--Patsy on LKL with Thomas, and John denying he knows KNOTS! He was in the NAVY...he not only owned sailboats, HE BUILT ONE, and HE RACED THEM. But he has NO KNOWLEDGE OF KNOTS?

If that doesn't give one pause, then nothing will. Evasions and lies never stop with this family.

Good questions and thoughts about the tape and the fibers. Pondering these, I have to wonder about several things mentioned.

First, do we KNOW what all the fibers were that were found on the tape? I know we know the four from Patsy's jacket, but if I've heard about the cotton fibers I'm blanking on it. Does anyone have sources on those? I am sooooo resisting the need to reread all the books again. I was kinda' hoping one day I'd wake up and someone who's getting paid to solve this murder would actually do the job....

Secondly, the cord fibers in the bed, but not on the tape: again, do we absolutely KNOW all the fiber sources found on the tape? But if there were no cord fibers on the tape, but they were in the bed, I think Fly has a solution in JB being bludgeoned and then the tape applied afterwards, before the garrote is cut. But that also works if there was a head blow and then the staging of the tape came later, downstairs.

But the question that remains is why would the killer put the garrote on her in her bed, kill her, then take her downstairs and hide her in the cellar? Chance of discovery is too great. If he's going to take her downstairs and hide her, if that's where the paintbrush handle was broken, if she was laid on the carpet in that area where she left urine stains, then it stands to reason the garrote was applied there. Less fear of discovery. And why would the killer lay her down there in the cellar at some point if he'd already made the garrote upstairs and killed her there? If all those things were done in her room and for some reason some intruder wanted to hide her body, why not just carry her into the cellar room and leave her? Why stop outside the room at all and put her down?

No, she was laid on the carpet outside the cellar room, that's a fact. No other reason but that some things had to be done to her there.

And by the way, this reminds me: does anyone remember the autopsy pics posted at the swamp, the one with JonBenet's mouth open that so many got upset with? Well, not to go THERE, but one thing I was noticing last night when looking at that pic again--there is saliva all over JonBenet's cheek, outside the obvious area where the duct tape was. You can see the outline of the duct tape because of this dried saliva. At least, I think it's saliva.

Well, if she was salivating all over her face, that would have to have happened BEFORE THE DUCT TAPE WAS APPLIED, wouldn't it? I mean, once it's applied, no saliva is draining. And since the impression of the duct tape can clearly be seen in that autopsy pic, the saliva had to have been there when the tape was put on and dried while it was on her face.

So that means the tape was applied AFTER SHE WAS ATTACKED, at some point, doesn't it? She had saliva running out of her mouth before the tape was applied. That seems to me to mean she was already unconscious. This area appears to be on the right side of her face, also, with the saliva draining downward towards her ear. So it looks like her head was listing to the right side when the saliva ran down her face.

Wait. Let me go get the picture and get some input. I could have this all wrong. The impressions are faint. But surely the forensics people took samples and know if this was her saliva. That would seal the staging conclusion for the duct tape, wouldn't it?

(...cellAR...sailOR...what the heck has happened to my long term memory???????????????)

 

etc.

I know the picture you mean, and there was visible "stuff" on her cheek. To me, the outline of the taped area wasn't very clear, so couldn't be sure of the exact arrangement. Keep in mind it could have been mucous (which is what I think it was called in the autopsy). It seemed too high on her cheek to be saliva.

There's no question that cord fibers in the bed make things even more difficult to fit together. Might be another situation for which the "normal" or sensible just doesn't apply.

As to her being on the floor in the basement... Given that the door to the storage room apparently had a latch high on the door, perhaps the person carrying her needed to put her down to disengage the latch?

 

MJenn

Check out my last post on page 2, I was posting about the time you were writing yours and I think you missed it.

The fiber evidence comes from Smit's presentation (from you know where) and from PMPT.

I tend to think the lack of cord fibers on the tape (Smit would surely note it there were), when the kidnapper had to carry both of them in his pocket, doesn't point to JB being taped AND tied in her bedroom. The lack of light brown cotton fibers in her bed, when they were found on the tape, cord, and on her body doesn't jive with the bedroom scenario either.

 

WARNING! WARNING!

Ok, here's the autopsy picture I was talking about. It's the one some people are very offended by, so if a mod needs to delete this link for that or other reasons, I understand.

In that case, if anyone wants it privately, just send a PM and I'll PM it back to you.

http://www.jameson245.com/csleftface.jpg

That's clearly saliva flowing down between the contours of her lower lip and her chin, I believe, Fly. There are some dark colorations between her upper lip and nose that could be mucous, I see.

Anyhow, remember Burke's knife, hidden by LPH in the laundry area outside JB's bedroom? That knife was found in the basement the next day, near the cellar room. Could it have been used upstairs to cut the cord in JonBenet's room, over her bed? Then carried down to the basement area, where the handle was then broken from the paintbrush and tied onto the long end of the cord?

That implies several things: the killer was not prepared to do this. He/she needed to get something to cut the cord from the house. Next, he/she KNEW where Burke's knife was hidden. And then why tie a handle on the cord in the basement? That's a stumper. Since the killer took the knife down to the basement also, it would imply that the killer already knew a handle would be fashioned from something. So the killer had SOMETHING specific in mind when he/she started making the garrote, right?

That would explain why JB was laid on the floor there, face down, picking up the green paint chip on her chin. And then the handle was used to tighten the cord and strangle her quick and efficiently. That's when her bladder gave and the urine stains were left.

Because one thing I don't think the killer knew: how bad the head blow was. No outter swelling, no bleeding externally. Maybe the killer had never hit anyone with a flashlight like that. Maybe the killer was imitating the movies he/she so loves. Just bop someone and they're out cold. In the movies, they usually wake up rubbing their head later. In real life, the blow actually was a death blow in and of itself. But did the killer know that?

See, I cannot lose the feeling that this was all about possession and jealously: money, power, sex.

And why would the Rams leave Burke's knife lying there if one of them was doing this to cover a murder? A knife that clearly implies Burke is involved?

That's cold. If the killer knew it was Burke's knife, knew where to find it...was he/she trying to implicate Burke? That's ICE, BABY.

The ransom note, the materials from the murder weapon being from the home, the knife left out to be found.... Look, if it's not one of the three in the home, then the killer MEANT TO FRAME THEM. That's all I can come up with. And since the Rams are obviously doing all they can to cover for the killer...THEY KNOW WHO IT IS. Back to the same four suspects.

And more and more, it looks to me like a FAMILY effort.

Oooooooooooo..... Shivering here.

 

fly

There are a couple more explanations
for the cord fibers in/on the bed, but I would imagine you've thought of them. Transfered and/or planted by a parent after staging JB's body in the cellar.

 

OK, got it WW

Maybe the killer didn't wear the gloves until he/she got downstairs. That would account for no fibers from the gloves in the bed. Then he/she tied the garrote handle on the cord in the basement, having tied the loop on her neck in her bed. Then he/she put on the gloves, to get a tight grip and leave no skin cells on the cord handle while pulling.

But then what about fingerprints on the Mag-lite and on the knife? Wiped them down and left them in the basement and on the counter. Again implying the family is involved, a frame. I can't believe Patsy and John would leave evidence that would imply Burke did it. Not even to save their own butts.

Nononononononononononononono.....

I'm totally exasperated here. Not wearing gloves: tying knots in BROWN COTTON GLOVES would be hard with that fine cord. So no gloves makes sense for that part.

But here's my problem: we're taking as fact that the brown cotton fibers belonged to gloves used during the crime. Is that solely from Lou Smit? You said it's in PMPT. I don't remember, so I'll look it up. That was my first book on this case and I was lost about 90% of the time. I wasn't online then. Then the only source I know of for the cord fibers being in the bed is the Rams themselves. Well...if they were there.... But otherwise, no one else has said this. And the Rams are proven liars.

So I guess I want to be sure before I take the cotton gloves and the cord fibers in the bed as gospel. Smit is the champion of the stun gun theory, after all. I'm not saying he's wrong about all things, just that there are many "expert" opinions on this case that conflict.

But it's something to think about. I never have been able to reconcile how Burke's knife ended up in the basement near the body. Again, if they can kill their daughter and implicate their son, those people are hiding some demons behind their facades. I just don't know....

 

MJenn

The beaver hair was mentioned in PMPT, and the rest of the fiber evidence I quoted came from Smit and DOI's mention of the cord fibers in the bed. It's too bad Smit wasn't a little bit clearer on the fiber evidence.

I don't have a problem with Burke's knife being used for stageing because some of JAR's and Patsy's stuff was used, too. Don't forget Patsy mentioning LHP when she found the ransom note on the stairs, and John didn't have any problem tieing the $118000 to some disgruntled Access Graphics employees. He/she/they were creating reasonable doubt.

 

Knots, boats and planes

MJenn - you stated: "Then you add John refusing to admit he knows knots in his Wolf deposition: I mean, overtime the Rams start distancing themselves with their absurd denials...that's when I perk up. Like with the Mag-Lite, the paintbrush--Patsy on LKL with Thomas, and John denying he knows KNOTS! He was in the NAVY...he not only owned sailboats, HE BUILT ONE, and HE RACED THEM. But he has NO KNOWLEDGE OF KNOTS?"

If John ever flew lightweight planes, he would also have to know knots because these planes are often anchored with rope similar to tying up a boat when not in a hanger. Go check out a local small airport where private planes are parked outside.

RE: the saliva/mucus, it might be possible if JonBenét was in fact initially asleep that she slept with her mouth open and had drainage prior to the attack.

 

WhiteWolf

Hello! I haven't seen you for so long, thought you were gone. Another Washingtonian!

Anyway, who knows a household better than the woman. She knows where Johnny's baby stuff is stored, where the x-mas decorations are, the halloween costumes. The "fact" that Burke's knife, Patsy's paint tray, who knows who's duct tape was used, the family flashlight... it all points to Patsy, the one who knew where everything was. After all, she was the one to tell Linda where to put things.

I'll bet if you told John Ramsey "Go get the kid's masks from last year and some duct tape to hold them on" he wouldn't have a freaking clue.

It's all Patsy.

I guess it's love gone wrong in reverse - Usually it's the woman standing by her man. Men can be just as stupid...

 

bed sheets

I guess if cord fibers were found in the bed it means the sheets weren't washed as some theorized but it seems like the blanket she was wrapped and/or covered with in the basement came off her bed so I'm totally confused as usual.

Help.

 

OH! Texan! That's it!

You just may have explained it! !!!!

What if the killer took her down to the basement, cut the cord there, killed her there, then WENT BACK UPSTAIRS AND GOT HER BLANKET OFF HER BED TO PUT OVER HER IN THE CELLAR ROOM?

There, the cord fibers fell on the bed from his/her gloves, clothes, hands, whatever when he leaned over it and wrestled with the blanket to get it separated from the sheets. Ever taken the bed clothes off a bed to wash the sheets but leave the blanket/comforter? You have to pull them apart. And the sheets do seem to have been pulled around the bed a lot that night, now that I think about it. Remember the picture? The pillow is at the foot of the bed, isn't it? The sheets are all bunched up.

Ok, well, it seems like an exciting idea. So go ahead...MAKE YOUR DAY, WHOMEVER. Shoot it down.

Hey, WhiteWolf, can you tell me one thing about the rolling hitch configuration you used on the deer dressing/dragging handle? (This is actually the question I've been dying to ask you but couldn't remember earlier.) Why did you add the additional wraps around the handle on each side of the knot? What purpose did that serve? Better leverage? Stayed on the handle better?

 

JR, it's a thought....

About her just dribbling during her sleep. But that seems like a lot of dribble. Most of the time when a person dribbles in his/her sleep, it tickles the skin and he/she automatically moves or scratches or wipes that area, causing the person to shut his/her mouth. It's not a real natural thing for a healthy person to dribble a lot at night, is it? I've seen a spot here and there on sheets from sleepers, but that would seem to be a bit of a stretch for a six year old to slobber like that down her face in her sleep, it seems to me.

What I'm thinking is that the BPD knows this is from her after she was hit and strangled. I bet they have all the forensic/medical info on this and that's why Thomas said the tape was staging in his book. Thomas only gave the barest of bones of evidence, if you remember. I mean, if it only took me TWO YEARS to get to this question...LOL...surely they did this work LOOOOOOONG ago.

Other questions that must have been asked, but no one has told: didn't anyone ASK BURKE about his knife? Did anyone ask BURKE, do you know where your knife is? When did you see it last? Did anyone ask THE RAMS those questions? Is LHP the ONLY ONE who got the hard questions? Surely they asked. Surely.

Maybe if the Post gets that info, we'll finally know some of these answers.... GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO POST!!!

Oh, forget it. The Rams WILL drop the suit. Sigh. That's probably why the DA's office is stalling now. They probably know the Rams are getting ready to drop it. Talking to the Post, trying to get a "SETTLEMENT"...HA HA.

(Edited 'cause I tortured my noun/pronoun/verb agreements. Miserably.)

 

MJenn

You could be right but as I recall someone said JonBenét was a very heavy sleeper and hence, may be why she wet the bed. Sorry, I don't recall which book (or depo) this was in - maybe someone else does.

 

Fibers

I think the cord fibers got on JB's bed one of two ways:

1) The R's laid her on her bed, after she was dead, of course, in a sleeping position so that they could kid themselves she was just sleeping. This would enable them to get "bussy" on the note/staging and not have to be overcome with grief and also to give JB a good resting place as opposed to the place where they'd killed her. I also think they left her there until the VERY last minute and foiled themselves as rigor mortis started to set in and they couldn't carry out their plans to remove the body.

2) The cord that was put around her neck might have been laying on JB's bed and got swooped up with the blanket...then used around her neck.

These are just some thoughts.

 

etc.

MJenn - Yes, that does look like it might be saliva. Hadn't remembered (or noticed) that. If she drooled that much prior to the tape being put on, it would be surprising that the tape adhered.

Placement of the "saliva" seems wrong for it to be from drooling during sleep. Pretty common for folks with sinus/upper respiratory problems to be mouth breathers while asleep, BTW.

Whitewolf (edited to correct name) - Some sort of transfer is quite possible. However, I think you are giving the Ramseys a bit too much credit for thinking of ways to plant evidence.

 

MJenn

The extra wraps of the cord/rope keep the knot centered and from slipping side to side on the branch, disburse the weight, and when using the knot for hanging something the extra wraps make it easier to tie (and untie) the knot with weight on the cord/rope.