Did duct tape come after garotte?

fly

Wasn't me you're talkin' about - I was just asking how the cord fibers would still be there IF the sheets were washed as some believe or how they remained IF the blanket on her bed was removed to put over her later.

Some time back on the old forum there was talk that the bedclothes were pulled up as if the bed was partially remade. I was just wondering and going nuts with all the speculation.

 

sorry, texan

Sorry, texan. Your're right. I should have said Whitewolf. Names are my nemeses (or whatever the plural is for nemesis).

 

fly

I don't think the cord fibers were planted, just a possibility. Before I forget, if you or anyone else has a copy of DOI (paperback) would you check the exact wording the Ramseys used when they mentioned the cord fibers and the bed? I'm curious if they said the cord fibers were on the sheets OR on the bed. Maybe the fibers were on the bedspread or the pillow?

 

Not to disrupt the flow, but...

...is there a reason the "Last Post Read" function isn't working on this thread? No big deal, just asking.

 

no DOI

Whitewolf - Don't have DOI, so somebody else will have to post that for you.

 

Thanks WhiteWolf, for your observations about the cord wrapped around the brush handle. That seems logical to me, but imagining something and actually experiencing it are often two different experiences.

Tell me this, WhiteWolf, and I know I'm asking for nothing more than YOUR EXPERT TESTIMONY HERE: do you think the killer would have known how that rolling hitch with additional turns on each side worked BEFORE HE/SHE MADE THE GARROTE HANDLE AND TIED THAT KNOT? Do you think the killer HAD EXPERIENCE with that setup and made it to bear weight and hold up during its intended purpose? Or do you think it was just a lucky guess?

As for the duct tape, looking at this thread and all the input, I'm inclined to believe Thomas' knew what he was talking about when he said the tape was staging. At the least, I think the saliva draining down her face is proof that she was at least dying from the head blow when the tape was put on her mouth. If this was done before the strangulation, then maybe it's as Fly said, she was hit and then the tape applied before the cord was cut or used--for whatever reason: in case she woke up or purely for staging. Since I don't know that the killer could have known the blow WAS IN FACT FATAL, because there were no outward signs, like swelling, bruising or bleeding he/she could observer, the killer could have expected she might regain consciousness and scream IF the blow came first.

But the tape ALSO could have been applied AFTER THE STRANGULATION and the head blow. The only point I can feel confident in is that THE TAPE WAS NOT APPLIED BEFORE EITHER ELEMENT OF THE ATTACK. The dried drool down the face says to me that she was unconscious and drooling before the tape was applied.

If there are in fact no cord fibers on the tape, but there are in the bed, then another idea is that she was taken from the bed, walking or carried, and the rest done downstairs, with the tape being applied before the cord was cut--which would put the head blow first, then the killer went back upstairs to get her blanket and at that time some cord fibers fell from the killer's clothes, hands, etc., into the bed.

But I can't resolve the cotton "glove" fibers not found in the bed. That is "negative" evidence and not necessarily proof of anything, by the way. It would be hard to use cotton gloves to do the delicate work of tying those knots and tearing tape off a roll and applying it, wouldn't it? I'm not sold on the "cotton gloves" as concrete evidence. Give me a source that says the cotton fibers have been matched to gloves and I'll be more comfortable with that as true evidence.

So, if the cotton fibers are from ANOTHER source, then maybe that source never came in contact with the bed sheets. Maybe they came from the killer's clothes? Coat lining? Shirt? Pajamas or gown? Maybe one person did the garroting with the cord, cutting it upstairs with Burke's knife, and another cleaned her up downstairs and dropped the cotton fibers then?

You know, I bet the truth is, there is a trail of fibers in this case, but we don't really know what it is, do we? Since the family has all the transfer excuses in the world, it may be that the police can trace the killer with these fibers, but that a defense could easily explain it away and confuse a jury. Or an incompetent DA is scared of taking the risk. God bless the Skakel prosecutor.

PS: WhiteWolf, that cord fiber in the bed story is in the paperback release of DOI, and I only have the $4 hardback from the discount rack.

 

DOI

The cord fiber info is in the paperback rendition of DOI, in the chapter that's added as an epilogue/chapter that's got info after that came after the paperback was printed. It's at the top of the left hand side of the book, but I can't tell you what page. John is the person talking. Sorry, I don't have my paperback edition with me right now. Hope it helps!

 

MJenn--the garrote handle

"Tell me this, WhiteWolf, and I know I'm asking for nothing more than YOUR EXPERT TESTIMONY HERE: do you think the killer would have known how that rolling hitch with additional turns on each side worked BEFORE HE/SHE MADE THE GARROTE HANDLE AND TIED THAT KNOT?"

Whoever tied the knot knew HOW to tie the knot. Period.


"Do you think the killer HAD EXPERIENCE with that setup and made it to bear weight and hold up during its intended purpose?"

Whoever tied the knot knew how to tie the knot. The knot was used as a way to attach the cord to the stick.


"Or do you think it was just a lucky guess?"


Whoever tied the knot had used the knot before to attach a cord/rope to a similar shaped object. Maybe a stick, boat cleat, boat rail, branch, etc..
....................................

MJenn, I don't think whoever applied the cord to the stick gave much thought to whether it would hold up under the stress of strangling JonBenet.

The stick wasn't necessary to pull the cord tight enough. There was 17" of cord plus what was wrapped around the stick, plenty of cord to wrap around the hand.

The rolling hitch knot used on the stick wasn't necessary to attach the cord to the stick, a simple double knot would have worked. The palm of the hand and fingers would have supported the paintbrush handle for strength, and would have prevented the cord from slipping off the stick. (Picture the cord between the ring and middle finger, and the stick held in the palm.) The very reason for tieing the rolling hitch knot wasn't necessary in this instance.

One end of the cord was wrapped snuggly around JB's neck and tied in a loose double knot. (Note: If the correct end of a double knot is pulled it will slide similar to a slip knot, but once pulled tight, it won't loosen again like a slip knot.) The cord was then pulled taut (it's easier to tie the rh knot with some tension on the cord). Once the stick is attached to the cord, the cord/stick is pulled with one hand and the double knot is slid down the cord with the other hand. Then when the cord was tight enough, the double knot prevented the cord from loosening around her neck. Note: Ideally, this is how it SHOULD have worked.

What I think happened was the person tried pulling the cord/stick and found that the double knot tightened before the loop around her neck was tight enough. Then the killer had to struggle with sliding the knot closer to the neck with one hand, and pulling on the cord/stick with the other. Note: I think this may be what happened because of the multiple marks on JB's neck.

I did test my theory out (on my upper thigh) a long time ago with the double knot to secure the strangling loop and the rolling hitch knot on the stick at the other end. The double knot tightend too soon for me the first time I tried it. I ended up struggling to tighten the strangling loop and left a larger area of cord marks on my thigh. Once the cord was tightened, I had a hell of a time getting it loose again! I had to take a fork and use the tines to pick the double knot loose enough to get it off. This is probably why te cord was still inbedded in JB's neck when she was found.

Hopefully, this gives you a better picture of HOW she was strangled, and from this knowledge we'll figure out some more of the puzzle.

 

Holy BATMOBILE! WhiteWolf!

That is amazing! I remember you discussing this at another forum, but I didn't quite get the picture then.

I can't picture the double knot sliding, so I guess I don't know how the double knot works. But for pondering purposes, I'm just going to take your word for it.

But I agree with you that the killer already knew how to make this garrote and handle configuration with the rolling hitch before that night. I've said this a hundred times. This is not something I can imagine someone getting lucky making right after some mortal accident in a panic.

Now, if Judith could just tell us if she has ever seen or if she knows of anyone in the Ramsey world who has ever seen anyone in that family or close to the family make something like this before....

Thank you soooo much, WhiteWolf. I have always maintained that the garrote is the key to the killer. I think your knowledge in this area has just told me something I've been trying to nail down for five years, but that has always eluded me. Yeahyeahyeahyeah...I know...I'm slow....

But now perhaps you can see why I cannot shake the idea that the killer may have in fact intended to hang JB. Your rolling hitch attaching cord to stick was used to drag or hang deer, correct? You believe the killer knew this attachment configuration well. You state that the killer had no need to attach the stick just to strangle JonBenet, that the long length of cord was in fact sufficient to wrap around a hand and strangle her. So why attach the stick? No practical reason. Unless...the intention was to hang, or to imply hanging. Dr. Wecht saw this implication quite clearly. He has a lifetime of experience in death investigations.

So that's my sticking point with the handle. Did the killer mean to imply this element as a hanging feature? For real purposes, or for staging purposes?

And even IF it was just for staging purposes...THAT WOULD MEAN THE KILLER KNOWS THAT ELEMENT OF THIS TYPE OF STRANGULATION, whether through S&M, Navy training, Boy Scouts, Internet websites, whatever....

That's why when Smit said there were fingernail markings from JonBenet's own fingernails and that she was conscious, it all seemed to fit.

But is Smit right? Or just on another stun gun hunt?

I'm not ruling hanging out, but if she was only strangled on the floor, the element of the handle still could imply knowledge of some aspect of hanging. Even deer hunting. Or hanging sails. Or something....

At any rate, like you said WhiteWolf, the type of knot and handle tells us something important about the killer. I just don't know what. LOL

Going to think about this a lot this weekend....

 

Mjenn

I want to be clear, the killer knew how to tie the rh knot onto a stick, branch, boat cleat, etc. before that night, but I DON'T think the person had used the double knot configuration (part that went around JB's neck) with the stick and rh knot before that night. In other words, this isn't a sophistcated killing device used by whoever. There are too many marks on JonBenet's neck for this to have been used by someone BEFORE to strangle anyone. In other words, the person had difficulty making this garrote set up work. I would also think the killer would have brought his own killing device if he had fantasized about it before the night JB was murdered.

I also don't think the "garrote" was applied then tightened and loosened a couple of times because of the use of the double knot.

The nylon cord had the factory melted end at the end of rh knot tied on the stick. The other end of the "garrote" cord had a frayed end. Both of the ends on the hand ligature had frayed ends. This could mean that the cord came from the beginning of a package of cord or tail end of the package because both ends are melted at the factory. I don't have my notes in front of me, but I think I figured the total length of cord used to make the garrote and hand ligature was a 6-7' long. Maybe the garrote and hand ligature configuration was done to use up all of the cord so none was left laying around the house for the BPD to find?

Edited to clarify a point.

 

Re: fly

WhiteWolf, I checked the epilogue that Imon mentioned in DOI and I found no trace of fibers being mentioned at all. The epilogue pages are from 423-427 on the paperback I have. I read allpages and didn't find a thing.


Here is a list of the fibers listed with the "Items removed from the Ramsey's property" ...This might help you

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/search.htm


Fibers from area by victim
from wine cellar
from under body
from victim's bed
from victim's pillow

 

Sorry

Sorry to call the chapter epilogue. It's called "Another Year Goes By" and it's on page 386. It reads as follows:

"...Fibers from the cord used to tie JonBenet's arms were found on the bedsheets."

I had to go dig out my paperback copy, and apologize for not doing it in my other post. Hope this helps!

 

WhiteWolf, I understand what you're saying about the "double knot," but I have never seen a confirmation of EXACTLY what kind of knot was actually used for the loop end of the ligature. Thomas implies it was a slip knot. I don't have time this minute to hunt that up again, but I will this weekend and find it. I may have posted it on the other thread here on this being a possible hanging.

I know the autopsy report has a vague reference to the knot. At this minute that also escapes me, but maybe that's where it says a double knot. Not that I don't think Meyers is a knot expert.... But as you may have figured out by now, I reallyreallyreally like to have exact information on details this important. So I'm still looking for the credible professional source in this case who knows exactly what kind of knot it was that was used and will say so. I don't think that person has spoken out yet.

One reason I consider this important is because I did quote a book source I have on forensics that discusses a slip knot used in hangings. I know the weight of the body would continue to hold that cord tight until the body was cut down, though. Since I'm not sure about any of this, again, I really wish that Van Tassel knot expert's conclusions could be revealed. Bummer.

But thanks for your clarification. I did understand that you were only commiting to the actual tying of the knot to the stick and not speculating too much further than that.

I will say that the lower bruises from the initial tightening of the cord before it rolled up to the position under the jaws is consistent with hanging or of a typical garroting, according to the forensics source I mentioned. It's the upward pull that caused the rolling. I think that could have been caused by hanging or by the killer being positioned over the victim in such a way that when he/she pulled on the cord, he/she was pulling from a position causing the cord to roll upward. Again, that's sooooo consistent with hanging or with the tension coming from above JonBenet's head, vs just pulled straight from the rear.

But then, the description you give of the cord movement on your leg could also explain this, it seems.

Time to go hunting sources again....

 

Re: Sorry

Now she tells me after I've gone over it a few times!!! Thank you for not making me feel better!

 

elle, imon

Thanks so much for finding the exact quote from DOI and the fiber evidence list.

I wonder if Smit (he didn't mention the fibers in his tv presentation) told the Ramseys about the fibers in the bed or if Kane mentioned them at the interview in Atlanta?


Edited to add: I just reread the DOI quote again and check this out, "...Fibers from the cord used to tie JonBenet's ARMS was found on the bedsheets." (Emphasis mine)

Are the Ramseys quoting what they were told or is this THEIR spin on the cord fibers?

 

I noticed that too, WhiteWolf. The Ramseys aren't too big on details, are they? You'd think they wouldn't want to spread MISINFORMATION, wouldn't you?

Or do they do this on purpose?

They may have found out from that great paragon of ethics, Trip DeMuth. You know, the one who now works for the Ram's longtime lawyer and friend, Mike Bynum....

 

MJenn

I understand that you want factual information to base your conclusions on, so do I. I have company coming for the day, but I'll explain later about the so called slip knot or double knot. I duplicated the knots in the pictures so it doesn't make any difference to me what they are called, just exactly how they would have worked in the application they were used for.

The knot expert is located about 40 miles north of me in British Columbia (I'm 5 miles from the Canadian border, US side). I have tried to figure a round about way of getting information about the Ramsey garrote without compromising the investigation, and if anyone has ideas let me know.