Door #3

Which best explains JAR's "forgiveness" comment.

 

well

I find it hard to believe a 9 yr. old would be capable of such a thing unless he too was abused.

6 yr old and 9 yr old? I just don't know.

 

I'm not sure Burke would have been abusing her either, Sparky. I've heard rumors that Burke had been caught with her under some kind of a tent by a housekeeper and he angrily told the housekeeper to go away or leave them alone, something like that. Don't know if that is true or not. I believe she was sexually abused or molested prior to that night (I believe Cyril Wech's chronic explanation) but my problem is I don't know by whom. It is possible it was JAR, but then again I don't rule out any male Ramsey at this point. I think it's possible Burke could have been involved in her death, tho. I don't have a definite opinion on who did what (I go back & forth a lot on that) but I have no doubt John, Patsy & Burke know what happened that night and are covering up for someone. But I do believe she was sexually assaulted chronically.

Regarding JAR, there are too many things that point in his direction. He supposedly commented on how pretty JonBenet was a lot. The forgiveness comment. The fibers from his comforter, the Dr. Seuss book, that kind of stuff. What is up with that book, by the way? I've heard the title of the book is being withheld by the cops. Strange. Also, didn't he disappear for awhile after the murder? I thought I heard that. He also supposedly had a drug and/or alcohol problem. Barnhall saying early on that he saw JAR on Xmas day or before at the hellhole, then recanting it. Just too many weird things with that guy.

 

yes Thor

he could know something, but don't you think it would be very easy for LE to "trip" him up or for the GJ to get some info out of him?

Lots of kids play doctor and don't actually "do" anything. Why would JonBenet let Burke do such a thing? Wouldn't she tell Mom? unless others were doing things to her too...

Thought JAR was cleared?

 

There are definately signs that JBR was being molested, but the question is by whom? I'm afraid we may never know.

 

My

opinion is that Burke was the most likely abuser of JonBenet. My opinion is based on:

1. JonBenet had been penetrated by a foreign object. Not an adult penis. Juvenile behavior.

2. Both Ramsey children had been sexualized at an early age. Many studies (including a book co-authored by Tom Haney) show that children who have experienced this level of sexualization are VERY likely to incest their younger siblings.

3. Questions asked of both John and Patsy in the 1998 interviews about "Why Johnny can't tell right from Wrong" and incest.

4. A statement by Linda Arndt in her deposition that her opinion of evidence of incest in the Ramsey family was shared by the "entire department os social services".

5. The process of elimination. Since John, John Andrew, or Patsy Ramsey (others who had access to commit the prior abuse) is a likely sexual abuser.

 

Maybe so, maybe no. There's little question that Burke was experimenting and in that frisky stage that all boys go through at that age. Burke wanting to play doctor, if that was the case, would only cloud the issue of how JBR got those vaginal injuries anyway. This is yet another example of why this case is so fascinating--there are so many unanswered questions.

I'm going to give Burke the benefit of the doubt and I don't believe LE would have cleared him if there was any doubt. I just haven't seen one shred of evidence linking BR to the murder.

 

I do, like Thor, feel Burke is involved.

Because, and this is just my opinion:

John and Pats would have rolled over on each other after all this time, tension, stress. I believe they are vehemently protecting Burke, right down to writing the ransom note.

We KNOW Burke was up that morning, probably during the night.

We believe he had Ausberger's syndrome (sp?) which would have lead to intense emotion without thought of consequences.

IF there was incest, it is likely to be among siblings when adults are busy with life...thus the chronic nature of the injury to JB. And adults may well have been involved.

An Ault would probably not have swung an object so hard at a child from the angle it seems to have been swung from....it seems much more in line with Burke's height or while she was sleeping.

There is just something WAY WAY suspicious here, but it almost has to involve Burke.

The breath taking comment from JAR about Forgiveness was STUNNING. You wouldn't just say that if a vicious murderer had just fled the home. But, you would say if it was a child doing the severe offense resulting in death of a sibling.

To me, and I don't have all the information, Burke almost HAS to be involved. Of course the above is my opinion after reading and reading over the years.

 

Why would John Ramsey allow his guilty child to prance off, unsupervised, with a family friend? Kids are notoriously loose-lipped, and JR has been controlling everything from the get-go, so why would he take sucha horrendous chance?

Secondly why would Burke be asking "what did you find" instead of screaming "I'm sorry" or even lying and saying "I didn't do it?"

I'm not attacking anybody, just asking these very crucial questions

 

Mels, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but the only other thing in life that I have seen is life-or-death important to the Rs that would necessitate such a concerted effort is their public image.

Bob, I also find it curious that the Rs would send a loose-lipped kid off with friends IF that child was involved, but then, maybe the Rs felt that even if Burke outted himself or them to the Whites, the Whites would keep their secrets. When the Whites began encouraging the Rs to cooperate with police, knowing whatever they knew, that's when the proverbial hit the fan between the Whites and Ramseys. And it was only then that the Rs began throwing suspicion the Whites' way, which leads me to ask why they would let their sole surviving innocent child go off with the Whites if they thought the Whites were capable in any way of harming their children to begin with. All of this is, of course, speculation on my part.

 

BobC

The BPD did try to interview Burke as he was leaving for FW's but John intervined saying: "He was asleep, he doesn't know anything." Burke was interviewed briefly by the BPD at the White's house. This interview is always referred to by RamsDupes as the "illegal" interview of Burke. To answer your ?'s:

IMO they "let" him go to the Whites to get him away from police questioning.

IMO Burke was puzzled about Patsy saying that they had found a ransom note during the 1st part of the 911 call. A call that he was standing close to Patsy listening to.

 

Yeah I know JR stopped them from talking to Burke, but I still think a control freak like JR would want to keep an tight eye on him if he knew anything at all worth talking about. I guess we'll never know unless somebody talks.

 

what is the name of the tom haney book?

i would like to check it out.......

thanks,
purr

 

There are lots of things kids don't mention. Sexual assault is often one of them. Secrets. Kids can be very sensitive to knowing what is ok to talk about and what isn't. That is learned very early.

Burke wasn't ignorant of his family's dynamics. He knew the Public vs the Private personas.Thus what was acceptable and not.

If JR was as scary as LHP said he was, it wouldn't take much to convince a child to keep quiet.

I believe instructions given to your best friend during a crisis would be strictly followed by the friend. Especially where a child was concerned. Fleet I am sure felt he was protecting Burke and likely trying to help Burke stay involved in other activities to distract him from the crisis at hand.

Then again, who knows? Not one thing about this case melds completely once all the pieces of the puzzle come together, that is what makes it both fascinating and frustrating. Not ONE scene can come together without huge holes.

 

Purr

The book is "When Johnny Can't Tell Right From Wrong", the author is William Kirkpatrick.

To Order:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...32?v=glance&s=books&vi=slide-show#reader-link

Book Review: http://www.ftrbooks.net/psych/education/right_wrong.htm

This seems to be a treatise on solutions to the moral terpitude in children today and addresses a variety of societal issues like juvenile crimes, gangs, drugs, teenage pregnancies, suicides, etc. I tried to access a full table of contents and index to determine if any chapter was devoted to the issue of incest of inappropriate familial sexual behavior patterns, but couldn't research the full contents.

The book price is cheap, it would be interesting for one of us to get it, read it then brief the rest, but at first glance, it's not a book specifically about incest.

<<<<<<<<<<<

In re Tom Haney's book, Haney was a seasoned homicide detective from Denver who interrogated PR.

http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/03/06-1.html

"The former chief of the Denver Police Criminal Investigation Division worked for three years as a homicide detective and has experience with the organization's Internal Affairs Bureau. Haney and Dr. John Macdonald also wrote a book published in 1990 titled "Criminal Investigation." The book includes several aspects of investigations, such as crime scene interrogations, Haney said. "

 

In Regards to Child Sexual Abuse

IMHO and in my own experience...

The dynamics of child sexual abuse are very hard to grasp. Largely in part because those who have never been subjected to it and/or those who would never even remotely entertain the thought of using a child, especially in such an abhorant way, have a hard time with just the thought of it. My first major hurdle to comprehension was getting past the incredible visceral response it evokes in me knowing that people are even capable of doing such things... I have known many survivors of CSA. I have heard too many heart-breaking life stories that have shown me the true depths of depravity that human kind can and does sink to. As painful as they are to hear, I know it is nothing compared to the pain they endured, and continue to live with. That I have been priviledged with the sharing of their pain has taught me more than any psych or soc course I took in university.

Children live what they learn. If a child is raised in a home where sexual molestation is a regular part of their daily life, it becomes "normal" to them. Many survivors have told me that they thought "everyone's family" was like theirs... This "normalicy" contributes to the "silence" maintained by many victims. Loyalty to family and/or fear also cause children to maintain their silence. Dependant of the age at the onset of abuse, survivors quite often will also develope MPD/DID or DD. (Multiple Personality Disorder now defined as Dissociative Identity Disorder or Disociative Disorder - which is usually just a single split, not a multiple, if onset is after 10+ years old). The mind literally fractures and another "part" of the child "takes and deals" with the abuse. These conditions keep the child from being completely destroyed emotionally/psychologically but, because they are "hidden" from concious thought, it also maintains their silence. The child is able to maintain a "normalicy" in their life and usually does not exhibit overt signs of abuse because they truely have blocked it from their minds.

Children don't, as a rule, just sexually abuse other children. Usually they have been subject to abuse themselves and, not realizing it to be abuse and believing it to be a normal part of family life... act out. Some do act out against others because they're angry and find someone "weaker" to abuse.. also actting out. Also perpetraitors/molesters quite often will coerce children under their control to engage in sexual acts with each other....

Anything considered normal behaviour and psychological responses goes completely out the window when it comes to CSA being involved in any situation. There's no simple answers because quite often the "holes" are there because the victims are not always completely aware of the extent of their abuse.

Sorry to be so wordy. I know this is far from complete. But I've seen alot of "why's" and "how's" questions that this might help shed some light on... If I'm completely off-course here I apologize.


edited to add, please exscuse the typos!

 

Raven, I too have had a lot of experience in dealing with victims of CSA and find your post right on and deeply connected, not only to the psych and emotional clinical aspects of it but a profound identification of just what the victims go through. Thank you for such a tender and enlightened post!

Someone correct me if my memory is faulty here, but I do recall LHP I think revealing that Burke also was a bed soiler in his younger years, which is usually a red flag of CSA. Kids who are bedwetters usually don't evacuate bowels too, and I recall LHP's testimony about this with both JB and Burke. That was my first tangible evidence to support some sort of incestuous relationship between the Ramseys.

While I'm not necessarily a BDI theorist, this certainly provides opp to connect quite a few dots. Kids don't act out inappropriately unless taught to do so by either family members or peers. It could well be that Burke was acting out (he was the right age for just normal curiosity, i.e., playing doctor) but one would have to ask where Burke learned this behavior as the first child....

 

Twitch--your PM box is full. I tried to respond.

For the record I do NOT believe for a second that Burke did this murder.