First Boulder Reunion Memories & Evidence Against the Ramseys

The forensic evidence indicates that John entered the equation before JonBenet drew her last breath. For fibers from the shirt he had been wearing on that evening were found in the crotch of the size 12 underwear on JonBenet, and she bled into this underwear, i. e. she must still have been alive when the genital wound was inflicted.

 

Yes, but John is only one out of three people who might have inflicted the wounds to the vagina. He could have entered the equation AFTERWARDS during the wiping down and redressing, and his fibers could have ended up in this incriminating place, as well.

I'm just saying in a trial, this isn't proof John was the one who strangled her or molested her, just that he was there at some point in the sequence of events.

But helping cover up a murder makes you also a co-conspirator, right? So that's murder one, as well, if intent can be proven.

 

Rosh--I understand your logic, but how do we know Pasty didn't use that shirt to wipe her down? Patsy was all over that laundry room that morning. She may have grabbed the closest thing and used it. I'm not saying that was the case, but it is possible.

 

That is the main stumbling block in this case: the stager of the scene, i. e. the person covering up the crime (or helping to cover it up) needn't have been the offender. Three suspects as possible offenders, and two suspects who could have been involved in the cover-up (I would rule out Burke as involved in the staging of the scene) - who did what?

 

In the Bonita papers, it says that navy blue fibers similar to those of a washcloth had been found in Jonbenet's vagina, so it seems the stager used this material (which could not be sourced to anything in the house) to wipe her down.

It has even been suggested that Patsy may have used John's shirt deliberately to incriminate him, but I don't think she was forensically sophisticated enough to think of that.

 

Yeah I don't see Patsy as being that together that morning to incriminate JR intentionally--she also had little or no interest in True Crime so I doubt she would have known about fibers and DNA (at that time, anyway). The simplest solution is usually the correct solution--so I could see Patsy using whatever was available at the time. The rest of her staging was about as subtle as a freight train, so I wouldn't think she could pull off something as evil as falsely incriminating her beady eyed husband.

He, on the other, is/was quite capable of doing any of that IMO. I recall Quantico's Greg McCrarey describing the staging of the crime scene as the work of a cold "psychopath"--which seemed odd to me at the time because all the heat was on Patsy. Seeing JR's manipulations after the murder, however, seemed cold and calculating to the point Alex Hunter called him "The Iceman" (before he started working as their PR man, that is).

 

John Ramsey is cool as a cucumber, no question about it. "Iceman" describes it even better.
But since fibers from Patsy's jacket were found in the wrappings of the garotte, in the paint tray and on the duct tape, this implicates her as the one who fashioned the garotte and put the cord around JonBenet's neck.
Could John have been forensically sophisticated (and cruel) enough to plant fibers from Patsy's jacket in these locations? Deliberately tying those clumsy knots and ligatures to suggest someone having little knowledge about knots and ligatures did this?
But in such a scenario (John the offender trying to implicate Patsy) there still remains the question why Patsy would have written the ransom note.

 

I think it was all a "family" affair. Maybe that's why it's so hard to prove which one did what--they were involved in some part of it?

 

I recall that JR's terry bathrobe was dark blue. I've always though that was the source of the dark blue fibers on JBR.
One of the things that has always upset me (and not just with this case) is that when you have a murder with more than one person involved, it can't be prosecuted unless it can be shown who did what. That means you either must have an eyewitness not involved with the crime or get one of the perps to make a plea deal in exchange for testifying. That has always seemed ridiculous. To me, charge them ALL because if they were there together, it shouldn't matter who did what. They are all guilty.
Colorado's laws seem like a perfect opportunity to get away with murder.

 

I agree with that. I think that it was Patsy that the neighbor heard scream...and not JB. I think that she screamed after she realized what she had done. I think that she got John and told him what happened...crying profusely..."It was an ACCIDENT John!!! I did not mean for this to happen. Oh my God, what HAVE I done? You HAVE to help me...I can't go to jail, I just can't. We have to figure out a way to get me out of this. If you have ever loved me John, you will do this for me. I don't know what to do." Patsy..was probably down on her knees at this time...begging for her life. John ...IMO...caved in and helped her with the staging. I also believe that he dictated the majority of the RN to her...with her, not knowing WHEN to stop...adding much more to it.

 

I agree DeeDee...I believe that this is the source of the dark blue fibers, too. I believe that he probably heard ..what I believe to have been Patsy's scream ( and not JB's..that the neighbor also heard). He was probably getting ready for bed...or already IN the bed. He heard the scream...he threw on his bathrobe..and ran to Patsy. And crying and begging for him to help her...he helped to stage the crimescene.

 

Yes, the scream could very well have been PR, though Stanton seemed sure it was a child. If it was PR, and she begged JR to help her, it explains his distancing himself from her, that's for sure.
JR is cold and calculating- that much most people agree on. He'd do what he needed to do to save himself and his family from all that would have happened if PR admitted to accidentally killing her daughter.

 

I think both Patsy and John were psychopaths/sociopaths. It was merely hidden well under their peachy-keen, rich and perfect family facade.
John's coldness can be recognized more easily than the remorseless steel core which lay beneath Patsy's soft magnolia appearance. A mother callous enough to deny her child medical assistance, but who jabs a paintbrush into her daughter's vagina instead and ties a cord around her neck to save her own sorry hide is capable of anything.
I'm not even sure if Patsy thought JonBenet was already dead. The genital wound bled enough for the stager of the scene to wipe her, and even most medical laypeople know that dead bodies don't bleed anymore.
As for John, he had been in the Navy, and therefore had to have had substantial medical training in first aid - he too would have known that JonBenet could not have been dead yet.
Sorry to sound cynical, but imo in their eyes she was as good as dead, 'beyond repair', so to speak. Should she survive at all, she was most certainly doomed to live in a severely brain damaged, vegetative state. Or, should a miracle occur and JonBenet recover, she might talk and tell the world what happened. They did not want this. They wanted to get over and done with this. Delivering another head blow was out of the question, since it was the original head blow which they wanted to hide. So they inflicted the genital wound and fashoined the 'garrote' to create a 'cruelly tortured to death by a sexual pervert' scene.
I believe they initially wanted to dump the body outside without writing a ransom note. But when they finally decided against it for fear of being seen, the felt they had to write a note to explain the dead body in the home.

"What if we were murderers - would the church community still accept us?" John once asked. Who would ask such a question? Only a person who had a good reason to ask it ...

 

I think that it would hard to tell the difference between a child's scream, and a woman's high pitched panicky scream, though.

I think that he was probably very VERY upset with Patsy...but, he loved her..and she probably, during her begging....brought up the fact that she had cancer, and didn't want to die in jail...and stuff like that. I believe that he resented Patsy for harming JB, but that he wanted to help her stay out of jail for the sake of how it would "look" to their friends and family, also.

 

I totally agree with you. Maybe this is why she was wrapped "lovingly"..."papoose style". Because the orginal plan was to take her out of the house and dump her somewhere. I believe that IF they had of done this, they probably would have never have been suspects at all.

 

You guys need to stop quoting Melody Staton. She was abandoned as a witness years ago because she changed her story about what she heard over and over--she is NOT credible. Her last rendition was that she wasn't even sure if she heard anything that night--that it might have been her feeling Jonbenet's "psychic energy" (something to that effect).

Ames you might be right. JR might have come to her aid, but don't base the theory on that scream that was supposedly heard.

Rosh I have to completely disagree about both of them being psychopaths. Psychopaths feel nothing about the crimes they commit. Patsy was so devastated by what happened that she spent the next two years of her life under heavy sedation. Psychopaths don't need sedatives. John Ramsey ran the show, effortlessly, for years.

Honestly--I don't think either JR or Patsy are true sociopaths, in fact, I know they aren't. But I think JR was able to go on auto-pilot to save his own skin, and acted in a way that could be described as temporarily psychopathic. Patsy was a mess.

Nobody will ever convince me that Patsy Ramsey was not incredibly sorrowful for what she did. I think, given the right stressors, anybody can flip out and kill. A good friend of mine had a husband who was mean to her and abusive to her kids--and one day she walked in on him beating on one of her daughters. My friend picked up a fireplace poker and hit him over the head. Luckily he survived or my friend would be in prison for murder or manslaughter.

 

No, I base that theory on whether a scream was heard or not. Scream or no scream...I believe that Patsy ran and told John what she did...and begged him to help her. And he did. I TOTALLY agree with you about Patsy being incredibly sorrowful for what she did. Just like your friend...my cousin walked in on his own (biological) dad beating his mom up for the gazillionth time, and finally had all that he could take. He went and got a gun...came back..and said..."STOP HITTING MY MOM!!", and then he pulled the trigger. His dad wasn't as lucky as your friend's husband. He was killed instantly. And of course...he went straight to jail...a place that Patsy would have done anything to stay away from.

 

I can't recall right now, but I will look later. I know you all know what I'm talking about as far as the statement Patsy made regarding not sleeping well due to "hearing JonBenet scream"....Many say it was an innocent statement....to me, it was de ja vu.

Let me know about this meeting so I can plan. I'm game anytime as long as I have enough time to plan.

 

I feel that Melody Stanton DID hear a scream, as she said first. I believe the R's people got to her and "convinced" her to change her story. I am familiar with her "energy emanating from JonBenet" babble also. I believe she also later reversed that as well, standing by her original statement. Why she flip-flopped, and who may have been behind it, it was enough for her to move away from Boulder.
However, the scream may or may not add much to the case depending on who you ask. In my mind, it adds one more bit to establishing a time of death of around midnight. This is the time she claims she was awoken by the scream, and this is the time of death estimated by the condition of the body (full rigor) and contents of the digestive tract at autopsy.
If she simply was awoken by the "negatve energy"? I've seen paranormal activity over the years to believe that can happen- either way, Stanton experienced SOMETHING at exactly the time JBR was dying. As she saw the commotion her statements made, she wanted to distance herself from the case, so it's not like she made the comments to get attention.

 

I remember that comment PR made too. It was a major slip-up, as far as I am concerned. There's no way that was an "innocent mistake".