Fly

I'm back. Hey Cookie--as a person who has never met the R's but who has followed this case and others like it , I will tell you that it always struck me how these two people have stuck together through all of this. Even if they were a couple who had the most perfect relationship known to man--and nobody that I know of thinks that--the event of having one spouse murdering the child, while the other covers--seems like a situation so stressful that nobody could keep it together for over five years. Nobody. Even when I first heard of this case, I thought if one was covering for the other, the innocent one would eventually say phuck this I am gonna save my own hide.

So do you think JR would have stood by Patsy if she had just freaked out and killed JBR in a moment of rage? As an onlooker, JR seems a little more cut-throat than that. Maybe I'm wrong.

You know what really made me think JR was instrumental in the murder? The fact that he sent Burke away that morning. Before the police could even barely ask him a question, JR, not Patsy, sent Burke away.He informed the cops that Burke didn't see a thing and off he went. JR is anything but stupid. If my daughter were kidnapped, I'd want the police grilling my son who was sleeping in the next room. Instead JR ushered him away.

 

Yes, excellent thread

Tricia, maybe you should (if you haven't already) tell Dr. Bea to read thru her thread and this one before posting anything -- we got off into some odd tangents over there and she may need a roadmap.

Fly, if you didn't know anything about this case but still had your fairmindedness, would you be able to serve on this jury if a criminal case was presented? And what if the prosecutor answered most but not all questions -- for example if the mystery DNA was never totally locked -- could you vote to convict? Would you hang the jury if everyone else was inclined to convict? If you were likely to hang the jury, and knew that potential about yourself going in, would you tell that to the judge and lawyers during voir dire?

Cookie, have you any idea what the Ramseys usually wore to bed? Was JR a pajamas guy, or did he sleep nude or in his undies? Do you know if he had a blue robe? Also which of the Ramsey pals might be on the bubble these days and less rabid in defense of J&P? And do you have any idea what keeps the Stines on their team?

BobC, yes, Spitz was the one who believed the shirt might have been twisted to throttle her -- which could explain the triangle marking. Could have been a fight gone awry.

Texan, I think Patsy wore the boots into the cop shop when she went to help out Pasta Jay.

 

Fedora good to see you here--where have you been, you little SCAMP?

 

fedoraX

FedoraX - I'm a little confused by your questions, but will try to respond.

If I were called for jury duty today, having followed the case, I think I could honestly say I could set aside any current ideas and consider the evidence presented.

As to hanging a jury without specific regard to any bit of evidence, I might. Hard to tell. It's pretty obvious that I can stick to my beliefs if I am convinced I'm right, and can (often) argue pretty convincingly my position. If I were very convinced of my position, I'd hang it. If not, I'd probably back down, knowing what I know about how effective group pressures can be.

As to the DNA as the hanging issue... I don't necessarily need to have the DNA identified in order to ignore it as irrelevant. I'd have to hear a very good argument showing pretty clearly that it was irrelevant. Having it in her panties when there's been a sexual assault, and simultaneously under her nails, is not something I would lightly dismiss. As I've said, though, if there is really good reason to believe it is pre-crime or otherwise innocent presented, I'd let it go. I haven't seen that so far, however. Without some major, definitive bit of evidence against the Ramseys, the DNA would be a case killer for me if the "irrelevant" arguement didn't fly.

 

Beaver-fur boots

I don't know if they were turned over to the police (I really think not, though, JR), but I do know that I SAW a pair of fur boots on Patsy Ramsey in one of the tabs. If I remember correctly, one picture showed her wearing the boots, another picture showed a close-up of the boots themselves, on her feet. I don't know that those were beaver-hair boots, but that was the claim, then. Cookie says she knows Patsy had boots like that. Jameson is, simply put, wrong. *grin*

 

Good Morning

Bob C - Jr may be a cutthroat kind of a guy when it comes to business, but in his personal like, I saw a different kind of a person. I don't remember exactly where I read that JR thought of PR as his "Jackie-O," but I feel that he, in his own strange way, was very attached to her. Haven't you met people like that? The ones that employees or coworkers hate and yet, their loved ones experience a different kind of persona. I know from experience, I used to be married to someone like that. Not until I went through a divorce with him, did I see a different side. I have been trying to change my child support from $15.00 per month to something more realistic. I have been involved in this battle for nearly a year now, just to change child support. He is a lawyer and certainly uses his knowledge of the law to draaaaag things out. So, I am seeing a different side of him now that I am not "family."

Murder is way different than child support. If PR did everything in this murder case, I believe JR might have cracked at some point. Look at his attitude about PR's trips to Bethesda? Not there for her!

I still believe they each have something on each other and that is why they are staying together.

 

For FedoraX

I was not privy to what JR wore at night (thank god!). But I have seen PR in the morning and she was wearing jammies and a robe with NO makeup. I was surprised to see that she had a fulll face of makeup that morning when the cops arrived. And weaing the same outfit. That is not like her!

I'm sure you have news clips where her hair looks messy and she is not wearing makeup. There is one, that I remember,, where PR is arriving at DIA (Denver airport) and escorted out, away from reporters. Her hair was unkempt and she was wearing no makeup. I was surprised to see her that way, since she must have known that she would be "on camera."

 

I understand, Cookie. This employee spoke glowingly of JR. He did several things for her that were incredibly thoughtful. One thing that I thought was interesting was that he instructed "Joanne" NOT to tell Patsy about any of it. When asked why he'd didn't want Patsy to know, Joanne felt that Patsy would be upset. None of these favors involved tons of money or anything so I found that a little odd.

At the beginning of one of these sessions with "Joanne," Joanne had pleasant things to say about Patsy but as time went by, she seemed to get more real about her take on Patsy--calling her "unkind" several times. Just her take on Patsy, but it was interesting.

 

JR

JR - I must have misinterpreted your scenario. I thought you were suggesting the PR found out about abuse and killed JBR because of it scenario, not the PR found JR (or whomever) in the act of molesting her, swung at him and missed, killing JBR.

Even in that second scenario, there's the problem of the overkill adn even the initial force of the blow to overcome.

 

I Believe

I believe that PR was the jealous type. Maybe she suspected JR of unfaithfulness in their relationship.

It makes me so angry to hear of spouses that tell their children or friends not to tell the other parent or spouse of something. My ex operates that way with his new wife, as I am informed by my daughter. The justification of this "secret," whether it is important or insignificant, is the fear of a negatvie reaction from the other spouse. Call it what you may, but I consider it a lie.

 

I kind of agree with JR's scenerio.

Fly, in desperate situations, it is well documented that people have unusual strength. Think about the mother that lifts the rear end of a car when she knows her child is caught underneath. It happens.

 

sure, but...

cookie - Sure, that can happen in rare circumstances, but for every case of extreme strength under duress, there's a heck of a lot more cases of no such effect, or even impaired behavior.

Sorry, but like killing your kid because she was a victim of abuse, covering for your husband when he has abused your kid and caused you to end up (accidentally) killing her just doesn't rank high on the likely possibility charts. Not impossible, but how likely?

 

I agree Fly. I don't buy that scenario at all. Another scenario I've heard along the way, which I don't buy at all, is that maybe Patsy killed Jonbenet to get back at JR for having an affair (if he was having one, and I'm not saying he was). There are people out there who really think that's the case.

I don't think anyone's gotten the trigger for this flashpoint of anger quite right, I'm afraid.

Fly--another key factor here that is almost never discussed is the fact that Patsy was fullly dressed from the night before, yet John was taking a shower. It would seem that Patsy was up first, supposedly IMMEDIATELY found the note, so what was John doing in the shower? Wasn't he supposed to have been asleep? If so, he shouldn't have had time to get to the shower, right, before Patsy came screaming for him?

What's your take on that? If this is accurate--then it would seem that JR must have been up for a while and took that shower for a reason. He read true crime so he must have been hip to issues of contamination, fibers, yada yada yada whereas Patsy was not.

If JR was alseep when Patsy came screaming for him, then a shower doesn't enter into the equation...

 

BobC

BobC - Wearing the same clothes is on the hinky list, but is again one of those somewhat ambiguous things. Given that this happens occasionally at our house, I can't see it as anything close to a smoking gun. It is worth noting, however.

I'm not sure what significance you are implying concerning the morning's sequence, but I don't think PR has said that she immediately found the note. She reportedly fiddled around a short time on the second floor before going on down to find the note.

 

Can anyone help here? I seem to recall, at least on one version of Patsy's accounts, that she immediately found JBR was missing. I can't remember though. Can any of you glamorous true crime buffs help us out on this one?

 

BobC

According to chapter two of the Rameys book, JR was already up. Patsy states, "I hear John turning on the water in his bathroom and realize it is still dark....Slowly the normal routine for an early morning flight comes into focus....I swing out of bed and abruptly remember that my shower is still broken."

Patsy states that she then dressed, applied makeup, went to the second floor and "shoves some of the laundry into a plastic garbage sack." She then heads down the spiral staircase and discovers the note, reads part of the note, races back upstairs, checks JonBenét's room and screams for John.

John comes back and states he realizes (after the 911 call) that he has been racing around the house in his underwear.

Breaking this down:

Alarm to penetrate sleeping person who had taken a sleep aid?

We don't know how long Patsy actually laid in bed nor if John was actually in the shower (water running could be the sink and he was shaving.) Still...let's say 5 min?

Deciding what to wear/pulling on clothes 5 min?

Washing face and applying make-up 10 min?

Downstairs, sort/shove laundry into bag 10 min?

Down spiral stairs, read/register note 3 min?

Back up stairs, check JBR's room 1 min?

Scream for John/have it register 1 min?

35 minutes minimum IMHO (probably more) accounted for.

John is still in his underwear 30 minutes or so after getting up when they have a flight to catch?

Call to 911 comes in at 5:52 a.m. per Steve Thomas in his book.

The Ramseys state in chapter one of their book they set the alarm for 5:30 that morning. "Got to be at the airport by 6:30 or so." (PR) They had a 7:00 a.m. departure time and it was important to leave on time so that they arrived in Minneapolis by 11:00 (JR.)

The 911 call is made 22 minutes after the alarm starts going off.

Regardless of what Patsy did or didn't do prior to making that call, I cannot imagine it taking any woman less than 15 minutes to pull on some clothes, wash her face, brush her teeth, apply makeup, and comb out her hair. Additionally, most people have to at least urinate first thing in the morning.

IMHO, there is no way both parents made trips up/down a flight of stairs, read the note and checked both children's bedrooms in anything less than 10 minutes.

The timeline is already blown here and I am discounting the Ramsey's own statements as to some of their morning activities. I am being very generous on the minimum time required to do others IMHO, just one of the reasons I have a difficult time trying to stay on the fence.

 

slowpoke

JR - You must be a slowpoke. Spousefly and I work much faster than that. Shaving or makeup in 5 minutes or less. Dressing in well under 5 if casual clothes, or unless there's a big decision to be made. One minute on/in front of the toilet. Five minutes to shower and dry off (plus 1 to get the water warm, perhaps). We sort a week's worth of the entire family's clothes in a lot less than 10 minutes.

 

Thanks JR--I wonder if that is the same version of the story they told the police. Just wondering. I can't remember.


Well I guess we'll never know one way or the other, but if JR helped Patsy with the cover-up, then I'd have to wonder why he felt the need to shower, while Patsy did not.

This is what keeps me here--I'm just too damn nosy. I need to get answers to all this crap. ENQUIRING MIND WANT TO KNOW!!!

 

Fly - Sheesh!

You make me tired.

I am by nature not a morning person. Getting ready to go out casually or formally takes me about the same length of time with the exception of my hair. The earlier I have to get up...the longer it takes I might add. Anyway, 45 minutes (with makeup), if I don't have to blow-dry my hair and significantly longer if I do. Thank goodness most of the time I can pull my hair into a braid and forget about the blow drying/curling iron torture.

I thought I was being very generous on the time allowances considering I cut my minimum time by 66.666 percent.

However, we allowed the same amount of time for the toiletry/dressing business (15 minutes.) So, how long do you think the other business aside from the laundry would take?