Forensic Evidence 2: Bedwetting

Texan,
Maybe so but we like what you're saying. :imonline: :bow:

 

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Can you tell me more about the open dictionary and why you think it points to them. Why would either of them open a dictionary up to the reference "incest'. Just need some clarification on this one. Anyone? Thanks.
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Maybe the Ramseys were trying to find out if an incest charge could apply to a 9-10 year old sb (?).

There is a big difference between youngsters under ten playing at doctor, than a teenager or an adult in the family sexually abusing siblings in their own family.

 

Quote:
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A little logic is all it takes to realize that no intruder is going to give a terrific whack to a poor little girl's head and then spend at least another twenty minutes staging. They would get the heck out of dodge just in case someone heard that whack. Anyway, a pedophile, a kidnapper, or a terrorist has no need to stage a crime like this. Only a family member would need to, or take the time to. It's really quite simple. But then I guess I'm preachin' to the choir here.
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Well said,Texan.

 

Well, we'll never know for sure, I guess, and what has been said could be why the dictionary was open and dog-earred to "incest." Or another reason we don't know.

But it did occur to me that a child might have heard the word and looked it up, if he was truly frightened, maybe having heard it in a heated discussion he wasn't supposed to overhear, or in a chastisement of his activities.

I thought of this because I remember when I read the word "abortion" in the newspaper when I was a child, and I asked my mother what it meant. She told me never mind. So I looked it up in the dictionary.

Or...it could be simple coincidence. There are lots of words on those two pages. I don't really believe in coincidence, but we've had A LOT of coincidences in this case that are staggering: the McReynolds' daughter being kidnapped on the same date decades before; the yearbook writing of Karr including a flourished "...Shall Be The Conquerer" (that was so choice for the RST, I thought their heads would burst); yet the oft ignored sign off for John Ramsey's sailing competitions--Signed By The Captain; how many people linked to this case have very similar names--Paugh/Pugh, D.A. lawyer Pete Hofstrom/maid Hoffmann-Pugh/lawyer Darnay Hoffman (no relations, but by this case), Burke Ramsey/Patsy's lawyer Burke, Lacy/Tracey, and the coup de gras of JonBenet/named after John Bennett Ramsey/Susan Bennett/Tom Bennett--the latter two allegedly not related to the Bennett Ramseys.

But what I will NEVAH consider coincidence is the vaginal assault with the paintbrush on the night JonBenet was murdered and the prior vaginal injuries. That's TOO MUCH coincidence that involves AT LEAST TWO FELONIES.

 

I appreciate your response. But these are very intelligent people. They know what the word incest means and I don't think they would have to look it up. Any other ideas?

 

Did you read my post further up in the thread? I believe the page was dog-eared as a clue, so someone else would find it and investigate.

 

is there an actual photo of the dictionary open to this page ?

Ive been thinking this one over..

and i keep coming back to a question.....why is it even there at all??

So much other incriminating evidence was soiled,tainted or simply removed and yet here we have a seriously non ambiguous clue .

I dont think either of the major culprits knew it was there in that state. Its to damning for them. everything else is staged to point elsewhere...outside the house etc...this redirects it all back inside.

I have my suspicions that a certain former friend of Johns is giving us the starting point, as best he could in the limited time he had. This may well explain some of the falling out.

That dictionary is the silent sentinel. FW cant say anything as he wont be supported by current LE.

If you had to pick the odd man out of clues, this I reckon is very high on hte list. I think the Ramseys just missed it and like everything else about this case have lucked out.

If he had seen it ( John that is ) surely he would have just picked it up and put it back on the shelf....and so another pointer kicked under the carpet.

I cant see any logical reason for that to have been left there if caused originally by a Ramsey, and so if not any of them...who.....WHo was with JR when the poor little tike was ( supposedly ) found. Did his quick mind pick up on something that just wasnt right ?? Who amongst all the non LE that were in that house that morning has NOT towed the party line, who went to the extent of 'contempt' who wrote the people of Colorado, who sided with Thomas ?

There are two elements to the scene that morning which bear thinking about , not in isolation. Someone realised all was not as it seemed, but appreciated the hostile world he was now in and something was left unscathed as a road sign.

You look up aword in a dictionary...you take note... you close it ..put it away maybe. If thats what you were looking up...its easy enough to do so again, it doesnt make sense to dog ear it for all the world to see...unless thats exactly what you're hoping !! .

Maybe this could be run by one of the new band of media warriors

 

Kanga, I'm totally with you on this - I think it is a clue. Left by...??? Well, one of the things I considered was one of the people the Ramseys invited over for the Kidnapping Brunch. Either one of the Fernies, or one of the Whites. But I am also not ready to rule out Patsy herself, or Burke. Let's say that Patsy was being at least verbally abused or controlled by John (we don't know the true inner dynamics of that marriage, as someone here tells us, "what goes on behind closed doors, no one knows."). Let's imagine that either she lost it and caused JonBenet to hit her head, or that John lost it and caused JonBenet to hit her head, and then John took over, controlling the rest of the staging, dictating the note, etc.

Maybe Patsy tried to get that clue to law enforcement, because she was afraid to say anything for fear of John. John certainly watched her like a hawk and AFAIK, never left her side, at least not for long, in the 10 years since the murder.

Another possibility is that Burke knew something was going on between JR and JBR, or even Patsy and JBR. He turned that page to leave a clue. He could have seen or heard something even before that night.

Linda Arndt herself said that when she saw John Ramsey with JonBenet's body, and was inches from his face over that body, she mentally counted the bullets in her gun, she was that scared from what she saw in his eyes. He must have been threatening her without speaking one word.

I totally agree that this clue slipped through the evidence-removing raid by Aunt "I can DO THIS!" Pam, which was a good thing.

Wasn't the dictionary one of those large ones that is on a stand? Those are always open, so the fact that it was on a certain page might escape the sight of the stager and get through to LE.

This, to me, is no accident and is one of the only important clues remaining after the get-the-evidence-out-at-all-costs-and-then-get-me-a-Happy-Meal raid by Auntie Pam.

 

4 a.m.

I just couldn't sleep for some strange reason.
thje fact that the page was dog-eared is really weird. Someone wanted to find that page again easily - possibly to show it to someone else.

 

Oh, well, I figured it was something like that! I have nights like that too. I get a lot done when no one else in the house is awake!

If I understand what others have said, it wasn't even that the page was merely dog-eared, it was that the page was folded in such a way that the corner of the page was like an arrow pointing directly at the word "incest." Couldn't be more plain, could it?

Hope you sleep better tonight!

 

I dont buy that it was a Ramsey marking the page to show another....its not hard to look up a word in a dictionary..you flick a few pages and voila..!!..why leave it there to be discovered...NO !! they werent aware of its existence.

No...this was set up to be observed as it was. its points subtlely ( in a fashion, that is there arent lights and sirens ) to a word...its left in plain view yet unseen ( initially ) and most importantly unobserved by those whom its trying to implicate.

My money is on a non-ramsey.........
its commited by someone who is rather shocked........
its was someone who felt the betrayal to the girl.......
it was someone with some Kahunas !!
Only one person in that house that morning has ever shown this !!

no prizes for guessing !!

 

Who (if anyone) in the Ramsey family was fond of dog-earing book pages?

Did investigators check John's - as well as Patsy's and Burke's - personal collections of books for dog-eared pages? I suppose not, which is too bad, imo.

 

good point though Tril..

 

Yes, sb, they would know what the true word "incest" would be, but if it was a child, I don't think this term would be used, and they may have been double checking (?).

HeyMom, There were just two adults in this house. I don't think either one of them would have left a clue like that - ear dogging the book to the word "incest." They had ten years for each of them to finger the other partner, and it didn't happen.

 

Yes, but John was always there, and if Patsy were being abused, she would have been so afraid by that time, she'd never say anything openly. You see, if she was the cause of JonBenet's cracked skull, even if it were an accident, John could threaten her with turning her in for it, to keep her quiet. He could say it was her, and intentional, murder, etc. if she even tried to say anything at all. Abusers are very good at threats and fear.

I don't know for sure that is what happened, I am just saying that you can't rule it out. It's not just a normal page-marker, it's a clue. Someone wanted it to be found, but didn't want to come out and say it.

 

unless we are all falling for the greatest furphy ( look it up ...might amuse for 5 mins ...lol ) going....then that page-pointer is definitely a clue....one of quite considerable weight i would profer.

As most things come back to in crime...what is the motive of this then..

as Harry Hoo would have it...if we know the when and how...then we can find the who and why ( Is that right 99?? )

The when?? am inclined ( with no real evidence ) to think it was done that morning..just gut ...nothing else at this time. The how...when ppl were distracted.. suposedly in grief and stupor etc.....have to be someone trusted in that household as to not arise suspicion of actions.

who would gain by doing this... or rather who wouldnt ?? Neither John nor Patsy surely can gain... the minute the one fingers the other ...they are both done !!inclined to rule them out. The suggestion it was Burke....cant be immediately dismissed, however...it would be a very brave boy who would out his dad in that fashion. One might argue, what if he's trying to pass the buck....well its a small world that one and it would rocket right back, if he rightly or otherwise was trying to finger a parent(s) then he wasnt going to go far that way. So am inclined to now dismiss him..
The Fernies..hmm.. Babs didnt go cold on ol patsy til later.. so timing all wrong...and John still on good side of John..so doubtful..

we continually come back to the Whites...or rather White !!..
yes folks ...all conjecture..
you have to ask...who ...and then why....and how and when.
Doubt it was the boy..or he'd be manifesting major guilt by now. The Ramseys...just doesnt make sense to me.....if patsy then it boomerangs and she's hit out of the park as well come trial time. John..mr I dont give a damn.. no logic in him doing so.

Theres that one person Id love to ask a few questions !!

 

Kanga, I believe your assessment is good, solid thinking. It's just that under stress, what makes sense at the time may not be so logical or clear. It's conjecture, I know, but I believe JR could have the characteristics of an abuser. IF he were to be in emotional control of Patsy, and say he caused most of what happened that night, she may not have cared about the ultimate consequences, figuring that if she were questioned, she could tell the truth and be cleared. If someone else were to have gotten the hint, and started probing, perhaps all the bricks would fall into place.

As for Burke, I do not think he would have done this that morning, since he wasn't downstairs as far as I remember, only to leave the house. That might have happened the previous night. He was a clever boy, and who knows how courageous? The clue was never followed up on, so we don't know what the thinking process was.

You see, I think Fleet White has more courage than just to leave a little clue like a page in a dictionary. It seems more like a weak, frightened person, trying to suggest without being seen. That is why I think of Patsy or Burke. And if Burke knew something, and JR suspected he knew, that could explain getting him quickly out of the house that morning, in case he was questioned and gave it up. Burke was in custody of family friends who were probably told not to let LE anywhere near him.

Here's an interesting thought - Linda Arndt just popped into mind - she did say the atmosphere in the house was incestuous, didn't she? Maybe she was so scared of JR that she wanted to leave a little hint, thinking perhaps she'd better not confront him directly, even with bullets. She had access to the whole house all day, and could have done that at some point.

It just seems too feminine to me, to do such a thing. But just like all the other elements of the case, chances are high that we will never know.

 

Arndt ?? hmm.... certainly works in the realm of scenarios

what is she doing these days ?

 

All the news reports just say she now lives "in a neighboring state." Nothing about what she's doing for a living, as I recall. If it were me in her shoes, "neighboring state" might mean Alaska, or even better, American Samoa. :nervous: