Info on garrote knot from PMPT

also

In looking at the picture of the left hand where the heart is being measured I don't see a cord around the wrist. What if the cord was loose enough to move around the wrist some and the two pictures with the knot on different sides is the same wrist?

 

Or could that be the sweatshirt with which she was covered in her home when lying under the Christmas tree?
PMPT pb, p. 28:
JonBenet's body was still lying at the foot of the lighted Christmas tree in the living room, but now she was covered with a blanket and a Colorado Avalanche sweatshirt.

It was the left hand where the cord had already come off, and I think all the pictures with the cord around her sleeve were taken from her right hand.

 

Rashomon,

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/04302001today-045.jpg

Note this photo has a time against it 7:12 with 59 deg below it.

Texan can help us here, I hope.

Steve Thomas talks about the coroner, Dr. Myers appearing at 8:23 pm for seven minutes while the body was still in the Ramsey home.

This photo must have been taken at the actual autopsy in the hospital when the detectives were present, because of the time 7:12. being displayed.

On page 45 Steve Thomas "JonBenét" PB, talks about the autopsy in the Boulder Community Hospital on the morning of December 27.

I remember reading that rigor mortis also leaves the body after a certain time, therefore this is why the arm may be in a position like this.

Texan, can you help me out here?

 

Elle,
this photo of the patterned rug has the time 7:33 with 58 deg, and was definitely taken in the Ramsey house.
The photo you gave a link to in your prior post (with the ligature round JB's right wrist) has the time 7:12 with 59 deg.
So it seems that this picture was taken at the Ramsey house too, possibly some time before coroner Dr. Meyer arrived.
Great spot re the time and deg, Elle!

 

Yes. See what you mean rashomon. I never checked the time on the others, because of Steve Thomas having stated the coroner never appeared until 8:23 pm and because of no rigor mortis, assumed it to be the next morning at the official autopsy.

It is all very confusing. I was surprised to read about rigor mortis actually leaving the body after a certain time. I normally avoid this kind of stuff because it's frightening. This is why I revere those in the medical field, who have this special quality to handle everything related to death.

I take it these are police photographs. I wonder who released them (?).

 

I'm pretty sure that the time and temps on these pics are from them being broadcast on the Today show, which always shows the time and temp at the bottom left of the screen. These screen caps appear to have been taken in CST. If you look to the bottom right of the pics, you can see a faint image of the NBC peacock logo.

-Tea

 

rashomon,


http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/04302001today-045.jpg

This photo with the time 7:12 does have the coroner's card in it. Steve Thomas has him staying only seven minutes and arriving at 8:23 pm. Go figure! Seven minutes is not long enough to take photos and then leave (?). What do you think?

 

Elle,

Could you please try again with the patterned rug pic? The pic that is showing up in your post is one taken in front of the house with the yellow crime scene tape around the perimeter. Thanks!

-Tea

 

That is the wrong one. Thanks Tea.

 

KK, can you tell me how you knew it was taken around 8:30 pm please?

Tea,

Can you see part of the rug to the left in this photo. I just can't find that one I had with
more of this rug on show.

 

This is a good time to post the following from the ACandyRose site.

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-photos.htm

ABOUT THE CRIME SCENE PHOTOGRAPHS


As of this date there is no proof that any official from the Boulder Police Deparment in Boulder, Colorado distributed any of the actual crime scene photographs to be viewed by the the public.

This web site shows photographs that were accessed from a variety of public domains, news sources, broadcast media, documentariese, published media as well as from what has been reported as being from Lou Smit's Power Point presentation that was used as part of various public broadcast shows. These same photographs have appeared on the Internet on various JonBenet Ramsey discussion forums and Internet news organizations. Some of the photographs are marked as "Crime Scene Photo - Not for Publication" while others show a sequencing number on them and some have both the notification message as well as the number.

However, a variety of these same photographs have been located on the Internet that are identical photographs as those marked as "Crime Scene Photo - Not for Publication" but with no markings whatsoever. Therefore, the conclusion is that the words, "Crime Scene Photo - Not for Publication" was not perminently stamped on each photograph at the time it was taken at the actual crime scene but could possibly be an overlay of words included during a presentation of the photos either within or part of the Power Point presentation or during the public broadcasting of the various shows where these photographs were on display.

The webmaster of this web site is not doubting that the photographs are clearly from the 755 15th Street residence or that some of the photographs came directly from the Boulder Police Department evidence files via Lou Smit's Power Point presentation. But the webmaster of this site is questioning as to when the photographs marked "Crime Scene Photos" was actually taken. What was the actual time and date as none of the photographs are marked as such. The apparent sequencing number on some of the photographs is also questioned as it is unknown if that number is/was part of Lou Smit's Power Point presentation or the sequencing of the actual crime scene photographs the morning of December 26, 1996.

Furthermore, it is the understanding of this webmaster that the crime scene photos taken on December 26, 1996 were both done using a still camera as well as a video camera. The Boulder Police Department had the house at 755 15th Street for ten days to collect evidence which could logically spread any crime scene photographs taken over that period of time between December 26, 1996 and January 4, 1997. After the ten days, the house was released back to the Ramsey family on January 4, 1997 at 6:30 P.M. and there was no doubt there was ample opportunity for the Ramseys private investigators to obtain yet another set of crime scene photos.

Since no exact time or dates are stamped on any of these photographs, there is no way of knowing which set/sets are of the first original photographs taken of the crime scene or those taken anytime during the ten day police access period or those taken by the Ramsey's private investigators after January 4, 1997. Other individuals who were not part of any law enforcement agencies or private investigation agencies were also allowed access to the 755 15th Street residence by Ramsey family representatives.

On January 3, 1997 Lawrence Smith sold photos obtained at a photo processing facility to Brett Sawyer and those photos were later published in the Globe on January 12, 1997. There were also reports of photographs taken out of trash bins of a photography processing facility used by the Ramsey investigators. In the early summer of 1997 two Ramsey family representatives agreed to show a Daily Camera reporter through the Boulder house (Reference: Daily Camera article; "Ramseys open up to press" by Clay Evans dated Thursday, September 11, 1997) and on September 10, 1997 Diane Sawyer gave a video tour of the inside of the Ramsey house on Prime Time Live.

In early 1998 both producers, Michael Tracy and David Mills obtained video footage of the inside of the Ramsey home for the July 7, 1998 Documentary ‘Who Killed JonBenet’ that aired in Great Britain and then later aired again in the United States in August 1998 under the title of "JonBenet's America’. In addition to all of that, the Ramsey representatives allowed Susan Bennett, also known on the Internet as Jameson access to the Ramsey home in late 1998 as well as being allowed to take photographs inside. Many of these same photographs later appeared in the tabloid newspapers as reference of being crime scene photographs.

It is important for those viewing these web pages to keep these facts in mind when viewing photographs from what has been reported from various sources as actual "Crime Scene Photos." This is especially important when one is trying to associate actual time and dated events reported from available transcripts, depositions, books, live broadcasts, visual presentations, etc. regarding this murder case and then using the reported crime scene phototgraphs when attempting to establish fact from fiction in relation to events.

 

Thanks for the above photograph information, Elle. ACR is pretty thorough.

I think I've found the picture you located earlier, Elle. Here is a page of photos from a very early show on the case. Looking at these again, there are old pictures of the Ramsey Christmases. A couple have what might very well be the rug in question showing more:

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/doc108.jpg

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/doc103.jpg

Now to compare:

http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceathouse.jpg

Here is the page with lots of pics, including the top two above.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/08051998-jbramerica-pic2.htm

 

I amended that in a later post, Elle, but I was taking the probable time the picture was taken from when Meyers said he was at the home, which was in the autopsy report. He appears to have left at approximately 8:30 pm, so I was thinking that he might have taken the pictures when he was at the home. I don't think you can move the body until the coroner gets there and says you may move it. But then I realized that maybe some other LE photog, maybe a CSI, might have taken the pics after the coroner left. And all I know about when the body was taken from the home is the picture of that black body bag being moved from the home. It was dark. So it could have been anytime, I guess, except that it took many hours for Meyers to get there, to get the warrant, and so I can only hope they moved the body as soon after Meyer's okayed it as possible, to get it in the morgue fridge to preserve for autopsy and burial.

But then I remembered something that led me to believe the body was in fact moved for this picture, the right face having been frozen in rigor facing her right. That means in order for this picture to be taken AT THE HOME that night, the body must have been moved onto its side or front to take the picture. Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to see that side of the face. Obviously, the picture was taken to document the dark circle on that side of the face.

The reason I wanted to know if the picture was in fact taken at the home was because the arm position looks strange IF you think it's FROM THE SIDE and the face is facing forward. That's what I was thinking. That would put the arms OUT FRONT. Since we have read many times the arms were "extended over the head," it threw me.

Then I took you all with me. Sorry.

But the upside is that we now...or at least I NOW...know something I didn't know before: she had paper bags on her hands and feet, and the garrote and wrist ligatures on her, as well, IN THE BODY BAG. So it's NO MYSTERY how BAG FIBERS AND CORD FIBERS got in the body bag, is it?

Unless you're Lou Smit and Judge Carnes, that is. Then it's some BIG EVIDENCE OF AN INTRUDER! Because we have been told by SMIT AND TEAM RAMSEY that there were cord fibers and bag fibers in the bed.

Now I KNOW how bag and cord fibers got in the body bag. But I'm wondering IF there in fact WERE any vacuumed from the bed. The ONLY SOURCE we've EVER had for that info...LOU SMIT-->>THE RAMS' PAPERBACK EDITION OF THEIR BOOK-->>CARNES' DECISION. To put it more plainly, I wonder if this is more BULLSMIT. Maybe he's somehow twisted THIS evidence like he's twisted so much other evidence, and it's all quite easily explainable, like PAPER BAGS ON THE HANDS AND FEET AND THE LIGATURES ON THE BODY would explain WHY those fibers were found in the body bag.

We know from his own mouth he was fashioning an "intruder hiding under the bed in JAR's bedroom" theory, as he told us in one of his spin cycles, the one with Katie Couric, I believe. Smit was putting forth that the BAG OF ROPE was brought in by the intruder BECAUSE THE PRIME SUSPECTS SAID THEY NEVER SAW IT BEFORE. Patsy was packing in that room that day, she and John both said, so if there was a bag of heavy rope sitting at the foot of the bed, she'd have seen it. Then there was the "ruffled dust ruffle" around the bed that had Smit so excited. Patsy never saw the bag of rope! Dust ruffle disturbed! Bathroom drawer left open! Window overlooks driveway! INTRUDER! INTRUDER!

But this WORLD-CLASS genius missed a few beats in this silly theory: KILLERS WILL LIE TO COVER UP THEIR CRIME, therefore, ALL of that COULD BE attributable to Patsy's/John's own activity in that room. Just because you don't WANT it to be the Ramseys doesn't mean they're telling the truth. The swampsters always miss this obvious point. Leave it up to them and all criminals could get off with just swearing to GOD they didn't do it.

But I digess....

And so that's why I try to figure out little details that may lead me to another place entirely. We don't have any professional LE or objective expert who has seen the actual case files to lead us around the evidence. We don't even have access to stuff jams has, because the Ramseys and Smit were given so much evidence by Hunter all along, which they in turn have spun to Kingdome come. So we have to take what we have and make the best of it. Since the RST is so good at spinning to make the Rams look like saints instead of killers, we have to work hard to find the truth.

But thank heaven for money. For a mere 40 thou, we got to see quite a bit of information formerly exclusive to the RST, which helps us see the truth. And for a mere ego boost, we got much of the PowerPoint Smit blackmailed the DA into giving him. Again, great for figuring out the lies and spin.

So I hope I haven't diverted too many exasperated posters with my semi-wild goose chase. But I'm satisfied that a few more pieces of the puzzle are in place--for me, at any rate.

But I STILL don't see how both wrist loops of the wrist ligature ended up on the wrists in autopsy photos when Meyers found only one on her at the home. I may not be able to see clearly enough, but from the pictures in question of those, I see BOTH KNOTS from the two different wrist loopes ON THE WRISTS in those pictures. One is clearly labeled RIGHT WRIST. But the other is, as well. And one has the same knot on the inside of the arm and then on the outside of the arm. So it had to have been moved by the medical examiner for the picture, right?

And maybe that doesn't matter. Just curious to me since we have discussed these knots at length.

 

Elle, poster Icedtea4me may be right who wrote that the time and degrees shown are from them being broadcast on the Today show and probably have nothing to do with the time and degrees at the Ramsey home or at the autopsy. I looked up the link to the pictures of the Today show and and indeed, time and degree were noted in every picture, even in the picture which e. g. shows JB still alive on Christmas morning.

From Koldkase's # 97 post:
"OK, here is the web page with that "at the house" picture in a group shown at Smit's TV appearance on the Today Show, April 30-May 4, 2001."

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/0...ayshow-pic4.htm

 

If Dr. Meyer didn't accidentally say her head was bent to the right (when maybe it was to the left), then JB's body was indeed moved.
But if the photo was taken at the home, it was in rigor mortis, and therefore the well-known drawing with her hands extended above her head is wrong.
And didn't Dr. Meyer say at the autopsy that JB's body was still in rigor mortis? Rigor can last up to three days.

I think these pictures with the ligature on the sleeve are both taken from the right wrist. But I'm not sure if I mean the same pictures as you. Could you give a link to them again? Thanks in advance.

 

Yes, rashomon, Tea is probably right. I am glad my friend Little forwarded the ACandyrose "ABOUT THE CRIME SCENE PHOTOGRAPHS" information above, which I posted first thing this morning. I hope everyone reads it thoroughly, because it will provide answers to all our questions which were stemming from these photographs being shown.

 

Yes, thank you KK, this is the same rug. Thank you for all the information/photos today, to browse over and check out.

Let me add that I think it may be the same type of rug, but one would need to see the closeup of the weave.

 

KK wrote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">But I STILL don't see how both wrist loops of the wrist ligature ended up on the wrists in autopsy photos when Meyers found only one on her at the home. I may not be able to see clearly enough, but from the pictures in question of those, I see BOTH KNOTS from the two different wrist loopes ON THE WRISTS in those pictures. One is clearly labeled RIGHT WRIST. But the other is, as well. And one has the same knot on the inside of the arm and then on the outside of the arm. So it had to have been moved by the medical examiner for the picture, right? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Here is some information KK, from Steve Thomas as the autopsy on JonBenét begins.



Steve Thomas "JonBenét" - page 45
The coroner, Dr. John Myer, hardly noticed the detectives, other investigators, and DA staff members who stood in the autopsy room in the basement of the Boulder Community Hospital as he began trying to determine how JonBenét had died. In most murders a single cause of death, such as a gunshot wound is relatively obvious before the first autopsy cut is made. Myer was about to uncover not one, but two possible causes of death, heightening the mystery surrounding the little girl's murder.



It was the morning of December 27. The little body was first removed from a locked yellow outer covering, then from an inner black bag. The paper sacks were removed from the hands and feet, and Myer began describing his findings.



The victim weighed forty-five pounds, was 3 feet, eleven inches tall, and had green eyes, and some green garland was caught in her blond hair. A single loop of white cord was around the right wrist, tied on top of the sleeve but so loosely the doctor easily slid it free. There were 15.1/2" between that loop and a loop on the other end, which once apparently had bound the left wrist.



A white cord of the same type was wrapped so tightly around the throat and neck that a deep horizontal furrow had been dug into the skin. A gold chain and cross were tangled in that ligature, which was tied behind the neck to a broken stick. Blond hair was snared in the knot, and the coroner had to cut the hair in order to remove the cord, which was tied more like a noose than a twisting garrote. The broken paintbrush used as the garrote handle had Korea printed on it.
... ... ... ... ... ....
Bolding mine.

 

Info from Lee's book

Hi KK, wow this has been an interesting thread. I think I read every post.

Thanks to "Little" who was recently quoting to me some information from Henry Lee's book, "CRACKING MORE CASES," I found some information that may help determine some time frames. In his book, Lee is writing that Meyer's assistant, Patricia Dunn stayed at the house to prepare the body for transport after Meyers left. Lee states "An hour and a half later" Ellen Howard (who we all know is really Pam Griffith) was watching the 10pm news and she and her daughter drive 20 miles to the Ramsey house just in time to watch them taking JonBeney out of the house on the gurney.

So that would put Meyers at the house long enough to state JonBenet was dead and then his assistant, Dunn with the body at the house for at least two hours doing whatever they do to prepare the body for transport. So crime scene photos could have been taken during that time also.

Hope this helps.

=======================================
152 CRACKING MORE CASES

Police reentered the Ramsey house at 8:00 PM on December 26 and began their search, focusing on the basement room where JonBenet's body had been found as well as the victim's bedroom. At about 8:20 PM, Dr. John Meyer, the Boulder County coroner, accompanied by his top assistant, Patricia Dunn, arrived to find JonBenet's body still under the lighted Christmas tree, now covered by a blanket and a sweatshirt. The pair noted the ligature around JonBenet's neck and the one around her right wrist. It was apparent that the cord around the victim's neck had been pulled through a knot, and they saw a broken, varnished piece of wood tied to one end of the cord.
Meyer and Dunn also noted a small abrasion on JonBenet's right cheek, below her ear. Meyer then left the crime scene, and Dunn stayed on, preparing the body for transport to the morgue.

An hour and a half later, Ellen Howard, the seamstress in Longmont, whose daughter, Penny, had coached JonBenet in pageant techniques, was watching the ten o'clock news on television when she saw and heard about the tragedy. Images of JonBenet's public performances were still on the screen when Howard located her daughter, and the two, leaving their holiday guests behind, headed for the Ramsey home, twenty miles away. Once the pair arrived at the lit-up exterior of the partitioned-off Ramsey home, Howard explained to Det. Sgt. Larry Mason their role as close friends of Patsy Ramsey. Mason advised them that he could not give them Mrs. Ramsey's whereabouts, and he asked the mother and daughter

THE JONBENET RAMSEY CASE 153

to come to see him at police headquarters the next day. The Howards stood there and watched in horror as a gurney carrying a small body bag was taken from the house and placed in the back of an ambulance, which then drove off into the cold December night"
=======================================

:bed:

 

Hey, ACR, as usual, you bring info that is needed and yes, it does confirm that the picture was taken to document the bruise on the side of the face that was turned to JonBenet's right, which would mean it faced the floor. So that means to take the photo, with the right side of the face up, the body had to be turned in some way to reveal the bruise since the head would not turn in the rigid stage of rigor.



It sure sounds like the picture in question was taken with Meyers there at the home, or he directed his assistant to take it before the body was transported, at any rate. I'm satisifed with the color and pattern of the rug underneath the body and this information you have brought, ACR and Little, about Meyers at the home, this picture was taken at the home, unless someone has new information they want to share.

And you have detailed for us that the body was moved after a 10 pm TV news report of the death, giving Pam Griffin time to find her daughter and drive 20 miles, speak with LE, and then observe the body being removed. That must have been around 10:30 pm.

So thanks, ACR and Little. You da bomb! :bowdown:

This info answers two questions for me: the picture was taken in the home, and the body was moved around 10:30 pm from the home.