JonBenet hanging????

head injury

Mels, you were talking about the head injury. Maybe you would find the following post interesting. It is a reply to me from "scout"on CN2000 when I had posted Cookie's confirmation about the spiral stairs being made of metal.

thanks elle. Yes, on another thread a while back I had found forensic information that seemed to prove that JB had not been struck with anything, but that her head had to have hit something stationary.

Since the fracture on the right side of her head was described as 'linear' and ending, toward the back of her head, as 'comminuted', I tried to think of something that would create a combined fracture like this.

What would cause the comminution? Could have been a number of things. If the side of her head came into contact with something flat, or with a straight edge, but ended with a corner, it might do it. Besides a fall down the stairs, if she'd been pulling away hard from her mother, and her mother quickly released her, the force could have propelled her into something like, say, the washer-dryer combo upstairs. The lower washer section would be about the right height for her head and the corner could cause the communition.

I thought this was an important idea because of the autopsy result that had not been talked about much -- time and again I'd paid no attention to it either -- the fact that the left temporal lobe of her brain showed bruising. This doesn't happen if you're hit with something, only if you hit something

One more thought about the stairs. If JB had suffered her head injury somewhere near the bottom couple of steps (which isn't at all implausible), it might explain P's fixation with having the note placed exactly there, as opposed to the floor at the bottom or top of the stairs, JB's room, or even the kitchen counter where it would have been seen just as easily (if left by the imaginary intruder).

Perhaps P placing it in this awkward spot (if it really was ever there at all) reflected something subconscious.

I think scout's theory is believable.

 

Yes, Elle...that bruising changes everything!

...very interesting and indeed!

IF...

she were standing and pulling away from Pats while on the stairs she would have hit the stair rail at a 135 or 45 degree angle to the ground/horizon depending on which way you look at it, and the wound if i remember correctly was almost horizontal to the ground if she had been standing up and 8 inches long. There would have been scraping marks as she fell down...now she did have bruises on her upper back, do you remember what shape the bruises were?

Automobile accidents cause skull fractures. Powerful forces causes them, but I don't know how that force was intitiated or applied to her suddenly without snapping her neck.

So, she was thrown into something or spun into something that she hit horizontally or almost horizontally. And, her head would have been turned as though looking over her left shoulder.

The smooth surface of the washer would have allowed her to hit it hard without the friction to tear open her scalp and also allow energy to be absorb from the impact into her skull...that or the smooth counters of a kitcen or bathroom, like you say, with an ended point.

Now this is where I pull Burke out of the Box. To have been moving forward and be shoved forcefully enough to be propelled into an object not quite as tall as she was, the shove would have had to come from arms lower than a mature adult's shoulders, but taller than hers. The insuing fall would have left bruises too, it would seem.

If we new how tall she was, and how far down from the top of her head the wound began and then ended, we would know about how tall off the ground the item was that she came into contact with...roughly.

Is this what you are thinking too?

If the item had been close to the floor, she would have some kind of stress or fracture to her hands and/or arms in an attempt to catch herself during a fall, so the injuring item wasn't on the floor.

There had to be enough room to gain that kind of momentum, I don't know how it could have been started from a short distance.

All I can think of is she was being held by her feet, spinning in the air and then knocked into a firmly fixed object that is perpendicular to the ground, smooth edge and with a finished edge...but again, how would someone hold on to her going that fast? And traveling that fast would have snapped her neck.

I think it is clear to see...this perp had INTENT to harm...and someone cleaned up the hair, skin, and blood that could have been left on the object from the wound.

Did they ever use Luminol in that house to look for blood? Tell me they DID!!

Mels

 

no blood

There was no skin or blood from the head wound. It was a closed wound. The cops didn't even realize there was a head wound until it was found during the autopsy according to ITRMI. I think I read that anyway, have loaned out my copy so I can't check.

I have also read pathologists opinion that it had to have been an object that was swung and hit her. Don't ask me where but could have been wecht's book.

 

posted picture

the picture posted is not the wine cellar but the boiler room. I don't believe this is a crime scene photo in that the screens leaning against the wall were in the wine cellar when JB was found. The wine cellar is to the right of the boiler room. I believe there were paint cans, a tarp, window screens, a fluorescent light fixture (12-36 in.), a piece of FAO Schwartz wrapping paper, a wire, and of course the duct tape, blanket and gown. I don't know if the original crime scene photo had the fireplace poker in it or not.

I've often wondered if the BPD checked the pipes for disturbed dust. JonBenet could have been tied by the wrists to one of the horizontal pipes.

A poster at WS named Anastasia once posted that she had a detective friend who was told by BPD that JonBenet had bruises on her back and buttocks suggesting that she was dragged. She then got scared and stopped posting.

 

here are some of my experiences....

as they relate to your theories.....and what you all are talking about.
i was trying to picture what mels said.
i'm not sure if i got her full picture, but mostly i did.

but mels pulls burke out of the picture.

i would NOT pull him out of the picture!
i feel one of the viable theories is that Burke
did DO IT, and then the parents covered up for him.

here is what i have seen and experienced before:

when i was in college, i worked a part-time job.
i worked at a state school for retarded residents.

the dorm i worked in housed severely retarded women
sometimes very physically violent.

i have seen over and over.... little tiny teenagers pick up items and hurl them with such rage as to cause a lot of damage.

one time i saw this girl who was probably all of 90 lbs.
pick up a round wooden table....the old fashioned kind....
with one very thick wooden leg....like grandma would have.......

and she picked it up with one hand and threw it at the nurse.
it broke the nurses arm. needless to say, that particular nurse did not come around again..

and i would not have believed it if i had not witnessed it.

another time we were having church, and one resident
got bent out of shape about something...and she came after me
and gave me a slug....and i was out cold.

so my point is....a child..even burke's size....pushed to his limits.....filled with anger and rage......could do just about
anything physically harmful that he wanted to.

it's kind of like..when there is a car wreck and a person's
adrenalin kicks in, and they can pick up a car.

so while you are looking at her injury, i would not cross off anyone on that list....not even burke!

thanks for listening,
purr

 

Re: Yes, Elle...that bruising changes everything!

Mels,

Keep in mind, this post was made by scout, and I can't answer for her, but I could see how a fall could propel a small body down the stairs, and her back could have been grazed as she slid down the stairs ....maybe hitting her head on the way down, with the final blow on the wooden floor (?).

scout isn't a member here. It would be nice if she would come over and she could reply to you herself, but I just thought seeing you were talking about the head injury ... it was another theory for you to read plus, I thought scout's following statement should be read by as many posters as possible.

I thought this was an important idea because of the autopsy result that had not been talked about much -- time and again I'd paid no attention to it either -- the fact that the left temporal lobe of her brain showed bruising. This doesn't happen if you're hit with something, only if you hit something

I certainly didn't know anything about this until I read it. When I come across information like this, I think it should be shared and talked about.

About the blood....there was no blood from the head until the autopsy was done. This is What I read too, Texan.

Purr, Mels didn't pull Burke out of the picture.
He just said he was pulling him out of the box ...meaning it may have been Burke, because he was smaller than an adult and working out his calculations of a smaller person fitting the crime scene better.

 

ok, i misunderstood what mel said

is that would you said mels???

and elle........fyi - i think mels is a female....

arent you mels????

 

Elle,

You understood correctly...I DO believe and have recently posted I believe Burke could easily be involved. I have stated I believe the glue holding Pats and John together is the common link of Burke's involvement...otherwise they would have turned on each other.

So, yes, makes BIG sense to me to look at Burke.

I was breaking eggs today, and noticed the crack lines can deviate from the basically straight lines of the bowl or object they are cracked against.

As for the momentum of the push or fall, that required lots of effort/strength...a committed, focused strength. Once energy and intent come together, it can be deadly.

We have a local family whose older children killed the younger brother. And these stories are being reported too frequently not to notice a trend in juvenile behavior patterns. Kids always have a reason they do things, a reason that seems perfectly logical to them.

I believe Burke is involved and Pats and John covering up. I don't KNOW that, but it is my opinion...just seems most logical with the way the morning panned out in a scripted way.

And I enjoy batting around the issues based on the facts as we know them, or think we know them. This has been a stimulating subject.

Mels

 

Texan,

Your right, I do remember there was no sign of the massive head wound...I have forgotten more than I like to admit.

Elle,

The problem I have with a fall is that her injury was SO very forceful. Lot of energy focused n one small area. If her body had been flying in the air as in a fall, she would have had other injuries as a result. The only ones I remember are scant and small...unless i have forgotten, and that is a very real possiblity...lol!

Wecht is an excellent Pathologist! But, Scout is probably right in that the bruising on the opposite side of her brain would be expected if she hit something, rather than it hittin her...I would like to see Wecht's book....maybe I can locate it at the bookstore.

Mels

 

bruising of brain

The bruising of the opposite side of the brain is small. This could have occured if she were shaken harshly. I am no pathologist but it seems to me that a blow against a stationary surface would have caused more of a coup/contre coup injury than she had.

Just from the location and direction and length of the wound, it seems more likely to me to be a blow from an object than her hitting against something. Think about where head injuries occur when a person falls - usually the back or front of the head rather than the side. The injury could be on the side if she were pushed against something but the force probably wouldn't be enough to cause that kind of damage.

All of this is jmo of course and I don't know anything about head trauma but thought I'd throw these thoughts into the mix.

 

It isn't easy!

It isn't easy to pinpoint what happened exactly that night, but it doesn't hurt to go over other postings.

I let scout know about this thread. So maybe she'll come over and take a look.

I have enjoyed reading over your postings on this thread. It's very obvious you have all researched quite a bit. Difficult to remember everything.

You're not alone Mels with your thinking that Burke did it, and his parents staying together because of him. This theory does make sense; however I have been concentrating more on Patsy, but I now feel Burke can't be ruled out.In spite of his frail build, he is very athletic.

Sorry to hear about the local family, with the older children killing the younger brother. This is so sad. I can't imagine what the justification of the killing of a sibling was (?).

 

agree

Texan - I agree with your post. Bruising of the temporal lobes can occur in other situations, including being hit with an object. The tips of the temporal lobes are particularly vulnerable to bruising if the brain moves around because the interior of the skull is not smooth in that region.

Also agree about the issue of falling. Awfully hard to hit hard in that location in a fall, especially without major bruising elsewhere.

To those folks wondering about bruising - why not consult the autopsy yourself? It's readily available online.
http://www.bouldernews.com/extra/ramsey/1997/07/14-1.html

Here's what the autopsy says about bruises/abrasions, other than those on the neck:

<i>Located on the right side of the chin is a three-sixteenths by one-eight of an inch area of superficial abrasion. On the posterior aspect of the right shoulder is a poorly demarcated, very superficial focus of abrasion/contusion which is pale purple in color and measures up to three-quarters by one-half inch in maximum dimension. Several linear aggregates of petechial hemorrhages are present in the anterior left shoulder just above deltopectoral groove. These measure up to one inch in length by one-sixteenth to one-eight of an inch in width. On the left lateral aspect of the lower back, approximately sixteen and one-quarter inches and seventeen and one-half inches below the level of the top of the head are two dried rust colored to slightly purple abrasions. The more superior of the two measures one-eight by one-sixteenth of an inch and the more inferior measures three-sixteenths by one-eight of an inch. There is no surrounding contusion identified. On the posterior aspect of the left lower leg, almost in the midline, approximately 4 inches above the level of the heel are two small scratch-like abrasions which are dried and rust colored. They measure one-sixteenth by less than one-sixteenth of an inch and one-eight by less than one-sixteenth of an inch respectively.</i>

 

Book recommend

scout's book information.

CrimeNews2000 ... 4/30/02 05:47 PM Re: confirmation for scout on spiral stairs [Post#: 38812 / re: 38806 ]

This is the book with the relevant head injury information:

"What the Corpse Revealed: Murder and the Science of Forensic Detection", Hugh Miller, St. Martin's Press, 1998.

Yes, when I look again at that photo of the spiral staircase and, given the abrasions on JB's right shoulder and cheek as well as the nature of the head trauma, I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to recreate a fall on that treacherous-looking staircase, matching up the injuries, that would explain exactly how the accident might have happened.

I doubt scout will join us. She's a war historian
and is also on a few other cases over there; however, she has said I can post anything she writes.

 

Thanks for posting that section, Fly.

To me, if she had been propelled through a shove or a fall, she would have had to be looking over her left shoulder when impact occurred...like Fly points out, that is unusual, because we tend to look at where we are falling and she would have recieved defensive wounds trying to stop the fall. I also think there would have been other wounds on the body from its stopping suddenly and coming to rest. Other injuries might be a fractured arm or bruised chest. I just don't see how she could be so badly injured on the SIDE of the head in a fall or shove.

I think if she was shoved, there might be more intense hemorhaging of the brain on the side where she made contact with the object due to the fact the brain was in motion...if she were still or at rest and the object of impact made contact as hard as it did, it seems her brain would have slammed hard into the opposite side of her brain leaving more wide spread bruising there and deeper bruising on the actual site of impact.

Does that make sense?

I also would like to know how fast the object that hit her was traveling in order to have that kind of damage and WHY it wouldn't break the skin or leave any outward clue as to the trama.

Putting myself in Pats place...if I got up and found JB and Burke had been fighting, etc...and JB was unconscious, I would have run immediately to call 911.

The only reason NOT to run is if they have something Bigger than JB to hide. A secret...and this is where I begin to say, hey, maybe Burke did NOT have a thing to do with it....and I go back to other scenarios.

If they will make the info BPD has open to the public, then we can probably fill in many of our 'blanks' as to what really happened. Even though we are looking at circumstancial evidence.

Mels

 

contra coup

Contra coup damage IS likely in acceleration/deceleration scenarios, but it also can occur when something hits a stationary head. Boxers very commonly show this pattern of injury.

Only moderate brain movement is necessary for causing contusions of both temporal lobes, thanks to the significant ridges in that part of the inner skull. A strong blow to the head would be sufficient.

With acceleration/deceleration injuries - especially ones with enough force to produce the severe fracture JBR suffered - there often is diffuse damage to the brain produced by the shearing forces. Blood vessels and neurons get stretched or twisted, and thus damaged, as the brain shifts and because different parts of the brain tend to move at slightly different rates than other parts. We don't have any evidence of that noted in the autopsy, however. I won't say it's impossible she was flung or fell onto something, but the bilateral temporal lobe contusions certainly do not prove she was.

Edited to clean up a typo.

 

So Fly,

Your saying you strongly believe it was a strike of force hitting her, not her hitting an object. I do,too. The brain is going to bounce around inside the skull from either one. But, it would seem a strike would produce deeper more localized injury to the immediate surrounding tissue of the impact area, then more generalized and perhaps wider scale bruising opposite the injury area.

There are many things I can't figure out, one is what was used to hit her with and WHY she didn't bleed more in the brain in the area of the fracture. Isn't this where the
strangulation is first, no head wound first' debate begins?

Mels

 

not propelled

Mels - I think the evidence indicates it is more likely that she was hit by something than fell or was propelled into something, but I'm not an MD, so I might well be wrong. I think there would have been much more extensive bruising of the opposite side if she was propelled into something hard enough to cause that terrible fracture.

Yes, the lack of bleeding is used to support the strangulation first scenario. There, too, however, there is certainly wiggle-room for the opposite scenario. The amount of bleeding depends on the extent of vascular damage, and that is not specified in the autopsy. Also, the visible swelling of the brain suggests that at least a few minutes passed after the brain trauma before death occurred. Lack of oxygen can ultimately produce brain swelling, but everything I've read had that developing a considerable time after the anoxia. I haven't found any mention of immediate brain swelling with strangulation, but perhaps I've just missed it.

 

Does anyone

who thinks the flashlight was the weapon used have any problem with the fact the flashlight is still intact? I personally think the flashlight may have been the weapon, but I have a problem reconciling the amount of force that would have to be used to crack the skull that way and the condition of the flashlight. I have a couple of those flashlights. I have broken a few of them in the past. I defy anyone to hit something with that much force and still have an intact flashlight. The glass lens breaks, for one thing, and the flashlight has a way of coming apart if it is swung with that much force. I mean, I know they are good flashlights, but they don't withstand that kind of abuse.

 

WY,

I don't see how something could stay together after that impact either! Unless it was a solid steel object.

The weapon is one of the huge Question Marks of this case.

The actual Cause of Death whether by strangulation or head trama is another.

But, what is NOT Questionable is the amount of time the perp/s had to clean and stage the crime scene.

This is where I can entertain a party familiar with crime scenes and law enforcement.

One would think parents would be extremely overwhelmed during this time, confused, irrational, and make Key mistakes. Hard to believe everything was so 'Sanitized'...body washed, room wiped clean of ANY prints, etc.

Have we been able to estaablish ANY thing for sure in this case? Other than we have a dead child?


Melissa

 

WY

The flashlite in question is rubber coated. Do we know for sure the flashlite was not broken?