Letter Patsy, Cover-up John ... Crime?

YY, I don't consider my statement irresponsible in the least. I realize you and many others here have a "Hands off Burke" attitude, but the fact is, none of us KNOWS who the killer is. Burke was in the house that night. He had the opportunity and the ability. Did he do it? That's my theory, but I don't KNOW that he did, any more than you KNOW that he didn't. To not even consider the possibility is irresponsible if one is really after the truth.

 

Tril ... my use of the word "irresponsible" was unfair. I'll take a well deserved hit for that: :rs:

... however, when you CHOOSE to assign one and only one context for the Burke-John 911 exchange, to the EXCLUSION of all other possibilities, then you are making a leap that simple logic simply doesn't support. You are effectively cherry-picking evidence which can be used in support of a narrow theory while IGNORING evidence and alternative interpretations which don't conform to your theory. That is not irresponsible ... but it IS intellectually dishonest.

Here is the simple test:

Can the Burke-John 911 exchange be reasonably interpreted in ANY other ways but the ONE interpretation that you have chosen to believe?

Seriously ... intellectual honesty demands an answer to that question.

Your one, and only one possible explanation is EXACTLY like those who claim that there is only ONE possible explanation for the Bloomies DNA, or the HiTec print in the basement. People exclude reasonable alternatives when they don't fit a pet theory ... and that is intellectually dishonest.

BTW ... I DO think that the BDI theory is worthy of discussion. But, when valid alternatives are raised, we have to be honest enough to take those possibilities into account.

I HOPE that this doesn't come off as a personal attack ... it ain't meant to be. I appreciate your contributions.


...YumYum

 

There you have the two magic words: "OPPORTUNITY and ABILITY".
That's ALL takes to kill someone, you don't even need "motive".

 

Yum,
OK, good question. What else could Burke be asking about during the 911 call?

1) Finding the note.
2) ???
3) ???

 

Is it possible that during that conversation, Burke misinterpreted something he heard his parents say? If I recall, Patsy was on the phone to the 911 operator. Could he have heard her talking about the note? Or was he possibly asking about something he had heard his parents talking about before the call; i.e., were they perhaps discussing scenarios wherein the police "found" JBR's body? He may not have been close enough right then to actually hear what they were saying, but he may have heard the part about finding something.

I think Burke may have interrupted their little staged 911 call, heard his mother tell the 911 operator about the note, and asked what they had found. His dad may have said nevermind or something like that, and Burke may have persisted by asking Well, what DID you find? I think Burke was a nuisance at that time, interferring with their plans, and that's why JR was curt with him, telling him, "We're not talking to you," which would be a way of dismissing him. With Patsy talking on the phone, she would have covered up the conversation taking place behind her with Burke and JR, but when she failed to hang the phone up properly, the tape picked part of that conversation up.

Too bad we didn't hear the part where JR tells Burke to go back to his bedroom and stay there until he came for him. To me, this always said a lot about John's total authority over his kids. Burke did go back to bed, and he stayed there, even while cops and family friends were in his house. There's little doubt in my mind that he wasn't sleeping but only remaining where his father told him to stay. This is something that has always bothered me - Burke's complete obedience to his father in staying in that bed.

If I had told my kids something like that, they would have gone back to their bedrooms, but I know damn well they would have been peeking over the banister or out of their rooms to see what was going on, being the curious little scamps they were, especially if there were cops and neighbors in the house. Of course, my kids knew that no matter what they did, they weren't going to be beaten or treated with a cold shoulder. I always thought JR was a cold person. I still think so.

 

YY, I've been following the case since day one, and I've taken care to consider all reasonable theories as to who killed JonBenet. I don't consider any IDI theories reasonable, but I think most RDI theories have merit. In my opinion, JDI is flawed and therefore implausible (I won't say impossible), but I don't discount PDI. It's just that BDI seems more likely to me.

As for the 911 tape, yes, of course there could be other explanations besides BDI for Burke asking what he did, and for John's gruff response. But to insist that BDI did not play into it is closing one's eyes too, I think. The 911 tape isn't what made me a BDI theorist, but the Burke part of the tape did nothing to dissuade me either.

Same with the Hi-Tec print. No one knows when it was made, and it may have no connection to JonBenet's death whatsoever. Heck even though Burke owned Hi-Tec hiking shoes, the print may not even be his.

On the other hand, I'm not going to discount the possiblity that the print found near JonBenet's body was made the night of the murder, by Burke.

If it's his print and he made it the night JonBenet died, does that mean BDI? No. There are other possibilities, including that he made it innocently earlier in the night, or the possiblity, remote though I consider it to be, that he had nothing to do with JonBenet's death but for some reason helped in the staging.

As I said, none of us knows who did it. I read everyone's posts, and I understand where PDI theorists are coming from. I'm a rootin' tootin' flamin' "librul," and therefore comfy with the "big tent" concept, where group-think isn't the norm. I suppose my "librulness" could be the reason I don't understand why BDI theories are resented so much.

 

Excellent point, WY. Bear in mind ... this was the day after CHRISTMAS! As a kid, I would have been up at the crack of dawn to play with my new stuff. For anyone to seriously believe that Burke was upstairs sleeping through all the commotion ... with brand new Chistmas presents downstairs ... just defies common sense.

Burke was clearly ordered to bed ... and told to stay there. It is unfathomable for me to believe the Ramseys claims that Burke was asleep, and remained asleep until he was awakened and taken out of the house (without ANY questions being asked about the scene he was dragged through).


YumYum

 

Here's the thing about Burke - whether one thinks he was involved or not. I raised three kids, and I know that at eight years old, they are not mature enough to keep their mouths shut. The ONLY thing that will shut a kid up is pure fear, and someone else has to put that pure fear in them.

Physically abused kids don't talk out of pure fear. Emotionally abused kids don't tell out of pure fear. If Burke knows anything, the only reason he has never told anyone is because he has pure fear.

I believe he stayed in bed that morning because he was afraid of the consequences from his father if he didn't. That doesn't mean I think JR physically abused either of his children. I do believe he was a tyrant who instilled fear, at least in his son.

 

And, the fear has to be continuing, for years, in order that the child never tells. Sometimes it takes the abuser's death before the child, now adult, will talk. So if Burke knows anything, and JR knows he knows, then there must be ongoing fear to keep things stuffed in.

 

Excellent post, Tril. Due to lack of time, I'll just address the issue in the quote area.

Ask yourself a couple of questions:

1. Was Burke put to bed at some point BEFORE he killed JonBenet?

2. If so, what would you guess that Burke was dressed in when he killed JonBenet? PJs? Did he get dressed in street clothes in the middle of the night?

3. Do you seriously believe that Burke would have gotten out of bed and put on HIKING BOOTS in the middle of the night?

Burke didn't wear HiTec hiking boots to the White party, did he? Soooo ... it isn't likely that he just slipped them on becuz they were the last footwear worn, and were therefore handy, is it?

Wouldn't slippers or the shoes worn to the Whites' be far more likely?

Oh ... sure ... it's POSSIBLE that Burke put on clunky hiking boots before going downstairs in his PJs to mess with his presents. But how likely is it?

At Burke's age, I woulda gone downstairs in bare feet ... NOT hiking boots with no sox.

And based upon personal experience, at Burke and JonBenet's ages, I woulda been OUT LIKE A LIGHT once my head hit the pillow after such a looOOOOoong, exciting day ... and would NOT have awoke in the middle of the night. Is it possible that BOTH JonBenet and Burke woke up and went downstairs? Yup ... but HIGHLY unlikely.

IF the bootprint in the basement were Burke's, it is FAR MORE LIKELY that it was left at some other time. The kid LIVED in the house! Yet we can't even confirm that the print is Burke's!!!

Sounds like wishful thinking to moi. You need to put every POSSIBLE unlikely BDI "evidence" in the BEST possible light to make this story even come close to fitting. AND ... you have to totally IGNORE the other evidence, AS WELL AS the LACK OF EVIDENCE that Burke was involved at the crime scene. No fibers ... no prints ... no DNA ... no supplimentary HiTec prints elsewhere in the house ... no hair ... no nuthin'!

An Olympic gymnast couldn't make those leaps with such precision.

... and the ever present Elephant in the room remains ... Burke was unprosecutable. No attorney would have stuck around under those circumstances ... not Bynum ... not Haddon ... not even Hunter or Lacy.


...YumYum

 

Maybe I'm being unfair here, since I really don't know what Tril, Spade, or others see as the likely full sequence of events. With that in mind, would you mind providing a step by step sequence of what you think happened the night of the murder?

Were both JonBenet and Burke awake after returning from the Whites?

Were either or both put to bed? Remember, John says he read to Burke. What time was Burke left alone in bed?

Did Burke fall asleep?

What time did Burke awake? Was it within two hours of JonBenet eating pineapple?

When WAS the pineapple eaten?

Did Burke wake JonBenet and go with her downstairs? About what time? Is that when the pineapple was eaten? If so ... then he killed JonBenet about two hours AFTER that time?

What precipitated the killing?

Where did the killing occur?

Why would Burke be wearing hiking boots, while JonBenet was barefooted?

Did Burke attempt to cleanse the crime scene ... cover his tracks, or just go back to bed?

When did John and Patsy discover that JonBenet was missing? Obviously, it had to be in the middle of the night. Right?

... Did Mom or Dad wake up for some reason (scream?) and look in JonBenet's room in the middle of the night and find her missing? Did they search the house ... turning on all of the lights in the middle of the night to find her?

If the scream heard at midnight WAS JonBenet's ... did that wake Mom and Dad? Did they see Burke rushing back to his room ... or question him?

... Did they check on Burke ... and ask him if he knew anything? Did he tell them where JB was? Or did Mom and Pop find JonBenet on their own ... near death in the basement, or elsewhere? Did they question Burke at that point? If so ... how does that square with the 911 call "What did you find?"


These are just a few thought starters. Please share YOUR detailed vision of what happened, and how available EVIDENCE fits, or is eliminated in your scenario.


I am seriously trying to be open-minded here. Draw me a picture.


...YumYum

 

YY... this is in response to your earlier post...not the most recent one.

I don't know what shoes Burke wore to the Whites', nor do I know if he removed his shoes upon returning home. The story is that he was tucked into bed. If that's true, he probably wasn't wearing shoes in bed.

If he was in bed and got up to go back downstairs, I think there's a good chance he did not put on shoes - unless going to the basement was already on his mind. Then I think he might have put some kind of footwear on, because the basement wasn't clean, to put it mildly. If he was in the breakfast nook when he decided to go to the basement, I think he likely slipped on whatever footwear of his was handy.

However, as I indicated in my previous post, the Hi-Tec print isn't a big deal to me insofar as BDI goes.

What I consider important about the print is that RST has used it to push IDI. Fleet White made no secret of letting it be known that Burke owned Hi-Tec hiking shoes. I suppose their doing that irked him too, and he wanted it known that the print could have been made by Burke at some time or another.

As for there being no forensic evidence implicating Burke, the body had been wiped down, and the crime scene staged (except oops, Burke's Swiss Army knife was found not far from the body, on a shelf.) And Auntie Pam removed many items, any or many of which could have implicated Burke.

For that matter, except for a few fibers, what forensic evidence was there pointing to either John or Patsy?

Fibers from John's black shirt were present in the crotch area of the underwear found on the body, so it was probably John who wiped the genital area...which may have removed traces of Burke, if there were any. Patsy's fibers in the knot indicated that Patsy was present, too, though I disagree with other BDI theorists who believe the ligature was part of the staging, and that Patsy tied the knot. I think she may have started to UNtie it, and left some fibers that way.

Sure, I know you and many other PDI believers feel disdain for BDI, but in the outside world, away from the forums, we BDI theorists are far from alone.

I just hope the case is solved someday, so we'll all finally know the truth, whatever it is.

 

Amen

Amen to the last post! That's right on. Fleet couldn't say much, he was told to back off! BUT the fact is, he did want it to be known that BR had Hi-Tech boots. WHY? You tell me what you think of this. Remember, He was watching BR right after the crime. He wanted to talk to some one on the "Outside" of the circus. NO one took that on. Why ?? I wish I was a fly in The Whites home that morning of the 26th. WHAT was there to hear? What was the conversation, if any,between Mr. White (A VERY innocent and smart man indeed!) and BR? To Yum Yum and others.. The BDI is a theroy of many. I would love to see him be the innocent one in all of this mess. Noone is gulity yet, noone is serving time for JRB's HORRIBLE MURDER! Nothing at all personal, but I do have my reasons, same as you and everyone else has for their own reasons and studies. I am working up something to post to futher down the road to show why I feel this is so strong a theroy. EVERYONE is innocent right now. Christmas is comming. Year #10 for our angel. I want the guilty to be held responsible. WHOEVER they turn out to be. Amen!

 

I think the reason Fleet White made no secret of it was that the Ramsey family was using the 'fact' of the Hi-Tec hiking shoes as proof that an intruder was involved. I don't think he was trying to point to Burke in any way, just to point out that the boot prints likely did have a connection to the family.

I think it was much more likely that John or Patsy had gotten the knife. After all, it had been hidden by the housekeeper to keep it away from Burke. So, who knew where it was? Patsy, who had been told where it had been hidden by the housekeeper.

OK, but then did she re-tie it?

 

I think this is exactly what happened.
It may simply be that he was interupting their carefully planned 'distressed parent' call to 911. Patsy had a certain 'script' that needed to be delivered in a certain way and Burke was in the way of that.

Even if the parents had nothing to do with JB's death, the same conversation could have taken place with Burke.
I know that I have told my kids to be quiet when I was in the phone doing something as un-interesting as making a dentist appointment because they were distracting me when I was trying to talk to the person on the phone. So, John's comments to Burke may have simply been to allow Patsy to speak without distraction and for John to be able to hear at least Patsy's side of the conversation.

 

sue,
That may be true. FWIW-I'm someone who heard the enhanced 911 tape on tv and I heard a man and a youngster (John and Burke). On that tape, John wasn't gently telling his little boy to be quiet so mommy could talk on the phone. The male voice spoke in a rather stern manner.

 

in the situation, I don't think John would have been gently telling the boy to be quiet. Maybe for making a dentist appointment, but not gently for calling 911. And, especially not if the child had interrupted more than once.

 

Point well taken.

 

I agree. My post was typed on the fly, and I must not have made myself clear.

~~

Burke could have easily found the knife by rummaging through the cupboard outside JonBenet's bedroom, where LHP had hidden it a few weeks before. Anyway, why would Patsy use Burke's knife, of all knives, to cut the cord or mouth tape, if that's what it was used for, and then leave the knife on the basement counter? Was she trying to implicate Burke? It's interesting that in an interview with the psychologist Burke mentioned the killer possibly having a knife, yet LE had not told anyone, including any of the Ramseys, that Burke's knife had been discovered not far from the body. I think John and Patsy overlooked the knife when staging the coverup, maybe because they weren't aware that it, or any knife, had been involved in what had happened to JonBenet.

And yes, I think Patsy, in a panic, may have started to untie the knot, and then either found it too difficult to loosen, or realized it was better to leave the ligature on, so she re-secured the knot. Even if she'd removed the ligature, there were still clearly visible neck marks, and besides, the ligature would be just one more item that would have to be disposed of.

 

I think Burke might have realized that he left his knife in the basement after he made the garrote and was making some excuse for it being there.

Out of all the things Burke could have said when asked how his sister died, he says "with a knife or hit over the head". He names TWO solid pieces of evidence.