Maybe it's just a coincidence, but...

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by icedtea4me, Jan 7, 2006.

  1. Scarifier

    Scarifier McHag The Third

    This is creepy because I have been thinking about this ever since Greenleaf's photos of the grave. The wording on it says:

    "A GIFT TO HER FAMILY
    AND THE WORLD"

    For Patsy so loved the world that she gave her only begotten daughter.

    Interesting that this discussion should come up just when I've been thinking about the symbolic nature of those words.
     
  2. wombat

    wombat Member

    Wow Cherokee - thanks for this post, this is something I never saw before. Recently my evil but beloved dog nipped me on the leg when I took some food away from him. It made a nasty bruise, but there were no marks where his actual teeth were.

    If the marks were made while JonBenet was dying, they'd be more pronounced than ones made on her while her blood continued to flow, I think. As in when she was being carried downstairs. Cranberry, I agree, I've always thought that she got garland in her hair from the spiral staircase, which was covered in the stuff.

    More evidence for BPD to ignore!
     
  3. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I agree.
     
  4. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    Education on bruises, including post mortem bruises:



    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/llb/woundsdjp.htm#Bruises1

    BRUISES

    Bruises (synonyms: contusions, ecchymoses) are areas of tissue discolouration produced by haemorrhage from ruptured blood vessels.

    Bruises can be confined to the deep tissues and therefore not visible on the skin surface; the discussion following relates to bruising of the skin and subcutaneous tissues which is apparent from examination of the skin surface.

    Bruises are typically produced by a blunt force impact, such as a blow or a fall; they may also be produced by squeezing or pinching, where the force is applied gradually and then maintained; "love-bites" are superficial bruises produced by the negative pressure of mouth suction. Bruises may occur in a variety of natural diseases in which there is an abnormality of the clotting mechanism of the blood, e.g. scurvy (vitamin C deficiency), leukaemia, alcoholic liver disease; such bruising is said to occur "spontaneously" because the injury which produces it is so insignificant as to typically pass unnoticed. The presence of such natural disease will exaggerate the bruising effects of any trauma. Florid spontaneous bruising (purpura) may be seen in children with fulminating meningococcaemia.

    In an uncomplicated bruise there is no breach in the skin surface; however, bruises may be associated with other blunt force injuries such as abrasions and lacerations. As a general rule bruising is not associated with incised wounds or stab wounds where there is a free flow of blood from the cut blood vessels rather than extravasation into the tissues. Generally, the extent of bruising is inversely proportional to the sharpness of the impacting object.

    The blood vessels ruptured are typically the capillaries and small veins rather than arteries. After the impact bleeding may continue for some time under the circulatory pressure of the blood. If the volume of haemorrhage is sufficient a swelling may result; if the extravasated blood collects as a discreet tumour-like pool, the lesion is referred to as a haematoma.

    Site of Trauma
    By contrast with abrasions, the location of a bruise does not necessarily reflect the precise point of injury. Extravasated blood will follow the path of least resistence and seep along natural or traumatic planes of cleavage of the tissues under the influence of gravity and body movements. For example, in the elderly, intense and widespread bruising of the outer aspect of the lower thigh may follow a fracture of the hip; a bruise of the temple may gravitate down to the cheek; a fractured jaw may result in bruising appearing on the neck.

    Delayed Appearance
    Gravitational shifting of deep bruises may result in their appearance at the skin surface being delayed. The more superficial the source of bleeding, the sooner the discolouration will be apparent on the skin surface. Deep bruises may require as long as 12 or 24 hours to become apparent and some may never do so. In a living victim, a second examination after an interval of one or two days may disclose bruising where previously there had been only swelling or tenderness on pressure. Similarly, in the dead, a further examination one or two days after the original autopsy may disclose bruises which were not previously evident as well as revealing more distinctly bruises which previously appeared faint. This may be particularly the case with "fingerpad bruises" produced by handgrips. Ultraviolet (UV) light may disclose bruises which are not otherwise identifiable at the time of examination.



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    Degree of Force
    The size of a bruise is an unreliable indicator of the degree of force causing it. In general a heavy impact is likely to produce a large bruise and a light impact to produce a small bruise. If bruising is slight then it is reasonable to assume, unless the contrary is clear from other findings, that the degree of violence was slight.

    In assessing the degree of violence from the appearance of bruises, several factors must be taken into consideration:

    (a) Location:
    Some areas of the body bruise more easily than others, e.g. the face with its vascular and more abundant lax subcutanteous tissues bruises more readily than the hands. Bruising occurs more readily in loose tissues, e.g. around the eyes and genitals and where there is a large amount of subcutaneous fat, e.g. buttocks and thighs, but less easily where the skin is strongly supported by fibrous tissue, e.g. palms,soles and scalp, or if the muscle tone is good, e.g. abdominal wall of boxers.

    (b) Age:
    Infants and the elderly tend to bruise more easily than young and middle aged adults; the former because of the looseness and delicacy of the skin, and the abundant subcutaneous fat; the latter because of degenerative changes in the tissues which support the small blood vessels of the skin and subcutaneous tissues.

    (c) Sex:
    Women bruise more easily than men because they have more subcutaneous fat and this is particularly true of obese women.

    (d) Natural Disease:
    Individuals with diseases affecting the blood clotting mechanism (see above) e.g. chronic alcoholics, tend to bruise more easily, as do individuals with degenerative disease of the blood vessels and high blood pressure. Bruises may also heal more slowly in these individuals.

    (e) Skin colour:
    This does not modify the extent of bruising but does influence the appearance. Bruising is more easily seen in blondes and redheads than in more swarthy persons; in blacks extensive bruising can be completely masked by the natural skin colour.



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    Causative Object
    Bruises tend not to reflect accurately the shape of the causative object because the bruise tends to change its shape and location with time under the influence of the factors enumerated above. The shape of the bruise is most likely to reflect the shape of the causative object when the object is small and hard and death supervenes soon after injury (limiting the extension of the bruise normally produced by the pressure of blood in the circulation).

    A doughnut bruise is produced by an object with a rounded contour, e.g. cricket ball. Two parallel linear bruises ("tramline bruises") result from a blow with a rod or stick; the pressure of the blow from the rod displaces blood to the sides to produce the bruises on either side of the line of impact. If the blow with the rod is struck against the buttocks, - a particularly pliable, curved, soft surface - the tissues are compressed and flattened under the impact; the resulting bruise will follow the curved contour of the buttocks. A pliable weapon such as a strap or electric flex may produce a similar appearance as it wraps around the body on impact.

    Bruises produced by fingerpads as a result of gripping are usually larger than the fingerpads themselves, but their pattern and location suggests the mechanism of causation, e.g. on the neck in throttling and on the upper arms in restraint.

    A bruise which bears the imprint of the shape or contour of the impacting object is said to be patterned. With patterned bruises, a tracing of the pattern may be made to match to the causative object, or photographs of the injury and object may be superimposed. Patterned bruises of this type may be associated with patterned (imprint) abrasions. Examples of patterned bruises may be seen from ligatures around the neck in strangulation; the headlight, grill or bumper of a vehicle impacting a pedestrian; and the muzzle or foresight of a gun in contact gunshot wounds.

    Occasionally clothing or jewellery may leave a patterned bruise on a body when it is crushed into the skin surface by an impacting object, e.g. motor vehicle striking a pedestrian, or a kick through clothing.



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    Ageing of Bruises
    Immediately after infliction a bruise will be dark red, the colour of capillary blood, turning fairly soon to a dusky purple; the bruise succeedingly appears brown, green and yellow before finally fading away from a pale straw colour. The colour changes progress from the periphery of the bruise towards the centre. The majority of bruises have disappeared within one to four weeks of infliction, but this time frame is extremely variable depending upon the size and depth of the bruise, its location and the general health of the individual. In general a green discolouration appears after four to five days or later, a distinctly yellow change after seven to ten days or later, the final disappearance of the bruise occurs in fourteen to fifteen days. "Love bites" which are small and superficial, typically complete this sequence in seven days. While accurate estimation of the age of a single bruise is not possible, a fresh bruise can be distinguished easily from one which is several days old. Establishing that bruises are of different ages may be of medical importance where there is an allegation of repeated assaults, e.g. child abuse and wife battering, or where pre-existing injuries need to be distinguished from those produced by a recent assault, e.g. a chronic alcoholic who was assaulted. A patterned bruise with a sharply defined outline infers that death occurred shortly after infliction, for otherwise the bruise would be less well defined. It is not possible to distinguish a bruise sustained at the time of death from one which occurred some minutes earlier; such bruises are best described as having occurred at or about the time of death.



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    Post Mortem Bruises
    Bruising is essentially a vital phenomenon in which the extravasation of blood into the tissues occurs under the pressure of the circulating blood. After death the rupture of blood vessels as a result of blunt force impact may lead to the extravasation of blood. For so long as fluid blood is present in the capillaries and veins, any injury that crushes these vessels will allow blood to extravasate into the surrounding tissues. However, the extent of blood spread is limited since the pressure of blood within the vessels is only physical. In practice it requires considerable violence to produce a bruise post mortem; the bruise is invariably disproportionately small relative to the degree of force used. Such post mortem bruises are most readily produced in areas of hypostasis (post mortem lividity, livor mortis) or where tissues can be forcibly compressed against bone, e.g. over the occiput. In practice post mortem bruising is unlikely to be confused with ante mortem injury except perhaps in the case of occipital bruises where a lesion an inch in diameter may be produced by careless handling of the body during removal from a scene of death or in the mortuary. In assessing the possibility that bruising may be post mortem, consideration must be given to the findings and circumstances as a whole; against this background quantitative differences between ante mortem and post mortem bruises are usually so great that confusion is unlikely. It is seldom difficult to distinguish between injuries with vital bruising resulting from a vehicle running over a live body, and the tearing and crushing of dead tissues.

    Post Mortem Lividity
    Post mortem lividity (synonyms: hypostasis, livor mortis) is the settling, after death, of blood within the blood vessels under the influence of gravity. This results in a purplish discolouration of dependent parts of the body with sparing of areas of pressure contact - contact pallor. The pattern and distribution of lividity distinguishes it from bruising. In doubtful cases incision of the skin will disclose blood oozing from the cut ends of vessels in instances of hypostasis, in contrast to extravasated blood within the tissues in bruises. Washing of the cut surface with running water will remove the blood from hypostasis but not the blood infiltrating the tissues in bruises. Confirmation of the distinction may be made by microscopic examination.

    Post mortem decomposition with its initial green discolouration of the anterior abdominal wall is readily distinguished from bruising. Putrefactive haemolysis of blood within the vessels and decompositional breakdown of the vessel walls results in extravasation and diffusion of haemolysed blood into the adjacent tissues; existing bruises are enlarged by this process; later, putrefactive haemolytic staining of tissue may mask ante mortem bruising, e.g. in the neck muscles in cases of throttling.

    Deep Bruises
    Bruises of the deep tissues, even when fatal, may not be evidenced by any injury to the skin surface. Fatal head injuries, e.g. subdural haemotoma, may be encountered without recognisable superficial bruising. Fatal strangulation with extensive bruising of the muscles of the neck may be accomplished without obvious bruising of the skin. Blows to the abdomen, although producing ruptures of internal organs, may not produce any external bruising. Bruising is more likely to be confined to deep structures and spare the skin surface when produced by blows with a wide and smooth object.

    Focal necrosis of subcutaneous fat may occur at the site of a bruise; secondary aseptic inflamation in response to the irritant effect of fat liberated from the ruptured cells produces a hard chronic lesion. This is more of medical than forensic importance as a common site is the breast where it may be mistaken for a carcinoma.



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    Classical Examples
    Bruises on the neck raise the supicion of throttling, particularly if the bruises are round or oval and approximately fingerpad size. Similar fingerpad-type bruising from gripping may be seen on the limbs of battered babies, e.g. gripping the arms or legs to forcibly swing the child or twist the limbs, or on the cheeks, in forceful gripping of the face, or on the trunk, bilaterally, in forceful shaking. Fingerpad-type bruises on the upper arms near the armpits suggests forceful restraint but may also be seen when an unconscious or semi-conscious person is lifted by persons rendering assistance. Fingerpad bruising of the thighs of a woman suggests forceful intercourse and may corroborate an allegation of rape. These bruises in themselves would be medically inconsequential, but are of considerable medico-legal significance since they constitute objective evidence, from their location and pattern, which can corroborate an allegation of assault.

    Bruises to the knuckles of the hands, together with bruises of the eyelids, bridge of the nose, cheeks and lips, are suggestive of a fist fight. Bruising around the eyes - so-called spectacle haemotomae - may be produced by direct blows, but also commonly result from a fracture of the base of the skull, e.g. in vehicle collisions or gunshot wounds to the head; they may also follow blunt impact to the forehead producing jolting of the eyeballs in their sockets with tearing of small orbital blood vessels.

    Bruising of the genitalia and around the anus suggests sexual assault. Severe bruising of the genitalia, with or without laceration, can be produced by kicks.

    Counter-pressure bruising, with or without abrasion, to the boney prominences of the back, i.e. the shoulderblades, sacrum and pelvis, suggests pressure against a firm surface as in forceful restraint on the ground, e.g. in rape or throttling. Similar bruising may be seen on boney prominences of the front of the pelvis in attempted anal rape.

    Elipitcal bruises, up to 1" long and up to 3/4" broad on the sides of the neck or the breasts, suggests "love-bites" produced by mouth suction. (A "hickey" in American slang). A double crescent of bruises with or without abrasions, suggests a bite mark and is most commonly associated with sexual assault or child abuse.

    In kicking assaults with the shod foot bruises are invariably associated with multiple abrasions and lacerations. The bruises and abrasions may be patterned by the boot. Bruising is typically extensive and targeted on the face, neck, ears, groin, and kidney area. Internal bruising is usually severe.

    Bruising of different ages may suggest repeated assaults, e.g. child abuse and wife battering. Multiple bruises of different ages are also seen in individuals who have natural disease affecting blood clotting and/or sustain repeated falls, e.g. chronic alcoholics, and elderly persons with poor balance. Bruises of different ages scattered on the forearms are often seen in the elderly.

    Bruising of the anterior chest may be produced during attempted resuscitation by medical personnel and others. During hospitalisation bruises are commonly produced by multiple needle punctures, and occasionally pinching the person to test the degree of loss of consciousness.

    Bruises are painful and therefore not commonly self-inflicted; extensive bruising creates a presumption of assault. Accidents generally are unforeseen and the injuries they produce tend not to follow a recognizable pattern; however, some accidents are sufficiently stereotyped and common as to produce patterns e.g. bruises on the shins of young children from play, falls and walking into objects, and bruises on the hips of women from bumping into drawers, cupboards and other objects about the home. Injuries in motor vehicle collisions almost invariably include abrasions and lacerations as well as bruises; patterns of injury may allow reconstruction of incidents involving pedestrians or allow distinction between driver and front seat passenger.
     
  5. Elle

    Elle Member

    KK,

    We had discussions on CN2000 a few years ago, relating to the abrasions on the backs of JonBenét's legs which suggested being dragged. Abrasions are mentioned on page 4 of the autopsy- on her upper back, and scratches above her heel.

    http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996jonbenet04.gif
     
  6. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    "we thought about Patsy cradling JonBenet after the head injury, crying and praying for her to be brought back to life"

    There might still be something to that. Bear with me: one of the interviews (I can't remember which) had a moment where one of the Rs was asked about Patsy's make-up. Even then, I doubted it could be just small-talk. Maybe they were getting at something, like a make-up smear on the body.
     
  7. Deja Nu

    Deja Nu Banned

    KK: "Of course I have never carried a dead child, but I have carried a sleeping one many times. They are limp. Also, the autopsy does state JonBenet weighed 45 lbs. at the time of autopsy. You have to understand, that's weight distributed over the length of the body and limbs, as well. It's very easy to carry them because you drape them on your body, rather than carry them like a sack of potatoes. You really should notice the next time you're around an average-sized six year old. They are not heavy."

    KK, I have, unfortunately, had to carry a dead child on more than one occasion. Limp weight is much different than dead weight and unless you've carried both, you have no comparison. I've also attended several autopsies on children and watched while it took a couple of attendants to transfer the bodies from guerneys to autopsy tables. To those in the industry, this is no phenomenon.

    WY, thanks for the medical info on this subject. Particularly interesting:

    Similarly, in the dead, a further examination one or two days after the original autopsy may disclose bruises which were not previously evident as well as revealing more distinctly bruises which previously appeared faint. This may be particularly the case with "fingerpad bruises" produced by handgrips. Ultraviolet (UV) light may disclose bruises which are not otherwise identifiable at the time of examination.
    .....
    In practice it requires considerable violence to produce a bruise post mortem; the bruise is invariably disproportionately small relative to the degree of force used. Such post mortem bruises are most readily produced in areas of hypostasis (post mortem lividity, livor mortis) or where tissues can be forcibly compressed against bone, e.g. over the occiput. In practice post mortem bruising is unlikely to be confused with ante mortem injury except perhaps in the case of occipital bruises where a lesion an inch in diameter may be produced by careless handling of the body during removal from a scene of death or in the mortuary. In assessing the possibility that bruising may be post mortem, consideration must be given to the findings and circumstances as a whole; against this background quantitative differences between ante mortem and post mortem bruises are usually so great that confusion is unlikely. It is seldom difficult to distinguish between injuries with vital bruising resulting from a vehicle running over a live body, and the tearing and crushing of dead tissues.


    It is clear from the facts and forensics of this case that the crime scene itself was JB's bedroom or bathroom and that her comatose body was transported down to the basement for the staging activity. Who conducted that transport and what method was employed have not been addressed by investigators. Over the years, we've all looked at this issue and conjectured various theories about it. Certainly, the green tinsel found in her hair on autopsy could certainly have been deposited from the green Christmas tinsel decorating the spiral staircase as documented in case notes. Had she walked down that stairway rather than carried or dragged, it is unlikely that her hair would have come in contact with the garland unless she intentionally rubbed it against the garland.

    An absence of wrist bruising would indicate that perhaps any dragging of her body was performed holding her hand(s) rather than wrists. It is my recollection that rope fiber was found on her bedsheets and in the body bag, therefore logically, there was probably rope fiber on the body as well. This rope could well have been tied around her waist to drag her to the basement.

    It is also reasonable to think that her body was placed on a blanket and the blanket then dragged with perhaps the lower extremities slipping off it at some point. We know that her body was clothed at the time of the injuries and any dragging, which could also explain why there aren't more pronounced drag injuries to her back and limbs. But what is telltale is the nature of the bruising and abrasions, as the autopsy discloses these are pre mortem injuries, not post mortem. The abrasions are not consistent with a stun gun certainly, and some have conjectured that the imprint in the center of at least one infers that the body was compressed against something like a button or snap.

    Our dear JustinCase also posted her impressions at one point that the shoulder bruising appeared to match handprints, which could also explain any leverage/grab point for dragging purposes.

    With these acute injuries that are clearly not the result of torture tactics or a violent physical assault, it would seem we are left with nothing but dragging theories to explain them.
     
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I read it, Elle. But those marks are very, very small, and there are only two pair on the posterior areas. They measure "one-eighth by one-sixteenth of an inch" and "three-sixteenths by one-eighth of an inch" on her back. The ones on the back of the leg 4 inches above the heel measure one-sixteenth by less than one-sixteenth of an inch and one-eighth by less than one-sixteenth of an inch..." That's very small. A bruise from a drag mark would be longer at least, and probably less patterned over a larger area, I'd think. But I sure can't say for sure, as I don't have the expertise and experience to make a judgment, but it really doesn't seem she'd only have gotten four small marks at two locations by being dragged all the way down two floors.

    Maybe I'm wrong. Let me go back and see what Wecht said in his book. It's been so many years and I just don't remember that in detail. I'll also see what I can find online on sites about drag marks and bruising and in another book or two I have that might enlighten me. I'm not trying to be obtuse, I am just trying to understand something which is really not within my skill or experience. Please forgive if I'm annoying. :sleuth:
     
  9. Deja Nu

    Deja Nu Banned

    You are not annoying, KK. I personally love to see members who don't have experience in homicide cases seeking enlightenment. For those of us who have, we always enjoy sharing our knowledge and still have room to learn new things. That's the greatest thing about these forums; it's an opportunity to come together to share and learn. Please post anything you may find in your research, k? :thumbsup:
     
  10. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, I jumped in reading at the end when Elle's post was last, so I have to go back and read all the others more carefully.

    And thanks, WY, for your info, saved me some work. I'll read it carefully and see what I can learn.

    I guess you worked for the medical examiner, Deja Nu. That must have been very hard. If you say 45 lbs is heavier because the child is dead, well, I sure don't understand it, but I'll defer to you. I just always thought 45 lbs is 45 lbs. Silly me.
     
  11. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    I have always heard there is a difference between dead weight and limp weight. (I could make an ex-husband joke out of that, but I guess right now isn't the time or place.)

    I don't know why, though.
     
  12. wombat

    wombat Member

    A ghoulish scenario has come to me from these recent posts, on this thread mostly but also others. I've never been sure exactly what the sequence of events was, but now my opinion is this:

    After JonBenet was injured in the skull in either her bedroom or her bathroom, the person who caused it thought she was dead. Then she was brought down the circular stairs, either by dragging or clumsy carrying, causing the bruises, including that "smoking gun" ring impression, down to the kitchen. The person with her might not have been able to do two floors at once. This puts her two floors away from the Ramsey bedroom and one floor away from Burke. A little time to think, rest, and maybe clean her up a little more. Then they went down the basement stairs.

    When they got downstairs, the person then realized she was still breathing. Maybe this is when the saliva/mucosa drooled out of her, which wasn't cleaned up off her face before JonBenet was left alone. When the person realized that JonBenet still breathed, but was irreparably damaged (her head had been thoroughly checked out by the person who hurt her), the decision was made to finish the process of dying. Then the neck ligature, made from materials found in the basement, was made, and she was strangled. I think the person was in a state of panic when this happened. Then, IMO, the hand-ties were added, and the child was put in the "wine cellar", as far away in the house from the occupied rooms as possible.

    This poor child.

    There were as many as five to six hours between the head wound and the 911 call. After she was moved to the basement, the ransom note was concocted, a few items were disposed of (garbage disposal, toilets), a couple of pills were popped, and 911 was dialed. After that, the person was ready for her close-up.
     
  13. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    Just an aside - the swamp dwellers have a thread for sending a message to the killer of JBR.

    If the killer and his/her accomplice are still reading there, they must have such mixed emotions - rage at the posts being directed at them, and glee that there are so many stupid people there who support them.
     
  14. Deja Nu

    Deja Nu Banned

    KK, my profession is law and it is within that profession that I've garnered my experience.

    Wombat, your scenario is very plausible, thanks for sharing it!

    WY, the reason why dead weight is heavier than the same living poundage has to do with the force of gravity. A living body, even in a state of unconsciousness, still possesses resistance against gravity in the flesh. Dead weight OTOH has no resistance counteracting the pull of gravity on it. Therefore the density of the mass is focused, not dispersed. I'm not a bio-engineer, but that's it in a nutshell. Doctah Lee could explain far bettah!
     
  15. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    Ahhh, I get it. Makes sense to me. Thanks, Deja Nu.
     
  16. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    I thought that was a perception only - because a dead body cannot assist the carrier as a live person can. Of course, a dead body will gradually become lighter thought decomposition too!
     
  17. wombat

    wombat Member

    Thank you very much.

    From an engineer's point of view rather than a medical one: Gravity is the force that acts on the mass of our bodies to make them weigh something. That's "weight". When a person dies, their body has the same mass and weighs the same as it did a second ago (I guess not counting the 21 grams that some people believe in). What changes is the muscle/ligament ability to distribute the weight.
     
  18. Elle

    Elle Member

    Thank you for posting this wonderful list WY. I'll take time to print and go over this when I have time.
     
  19. Deja Nu

    Deja Nu Banned

    "From an engineer's point of view rather than a medical one: Gravity is the force that acts on the mass of our bodies to make them weigh something. That's "weight". When a person dies, their body has the same mass and weighs the same as it did a second ago (I guess not counting the 21 grams that some people believe in). What changes is the muscle/ligament ability to distribute the weight."

    I knew an engineer would show up to shed light on this complex issue, wombat. Thanks! Yes, 45 lbs. still weighs 45 lbs. dead or alive. But the inertia of the mass not producing any counter to the gravity pulling the mass makes it heavier. Geez, isn't it amazing how much we have to learn just to understand a homicide???? :computer:
     
  20. Elle

    Elle Member

    We weren't discussing just dragging her downstairs, KK. We were discussing her being dragged from the place of initial injury. We are unsure where the original injury took place. It could as Delmar suggested once, have happened in the kitchen with the flashlight; maybe over the pineapple; therefore, that's a shorter distance to the basement from the kitchen, than from JonBenét's bedroom.
     
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