Maybe it's just a coincidence, but...

Was all of the above part of a university course in criminal law, Deja? I'm very impressed! I will print this with WY's bruising information and study this when I have some extra time.

 

I'm sorry, but I'm no engineer, so I'm at a loss here.

If the 45 lbs of JonBenet's weight equals the measurement of gravity on JonBenet's body, how does it matter if the weight has distributed itself a little differently over the length of muscles and tissue due to loss of resistence after death? She didn't suddenly become grotesquely enlarged on one end and thinner on the other, did she? But even if she did, it's still going to be 45 lbs equals the weight of her body.

I did a little experiment today, and I can't believe I have become as weird as this, but I did it, so here it is: I asked my 65 lb. grandchild to lie on the bed and pretend he was asleep. (I KNOW the argument is that limp vs dead is different, but hear me out.) I, a short 53 year old grandma in not too good of shape, picked him up and carried him to the living room, no problem. I wasn't huffing and puffing, I wasn't about to drop him, and I cannot believe that Patsy Ramsey could not carry little JonBenet two flights of stairs in a home, so she dragged her, bumping and flopping around instead. It just doesn't make sense to me.

But hey, I'm no brain trust, so please forgive my need to fall back on the small amount of common sense I can muster. Because I cannot see how a 45 lb. child, either dead or brain injured, could possibly "feel" like MORE than a 65 child does, his being healthy and breathing notwithstanding.

But I'll keep trying to understand. If I can't I'll just bow out of the debate so nobody gets offended.

OK, I looked back at Wecht's book, and he mentions the marks on her in the locations we're discussing, but says they could come from her being roughly handled on the floor or against something while against a wall, to paraphrase. Nothing about her being dragged. I'll come back later and write it out, but gotta' run to supper now.

I know pre- and post-mortem bruises are different. I appreciate your information, WY, as well. I personally believe JonBenet was strangled in the basement, and therefore was not actually dead on the trip down, based on the evidence which I detailed in a theory about the sequence of events. I'll try to find it where I wrote extensively on this here not that long ago. I would be interested in some feedback, as there was little then.

Well, I'll come back when I have time to read more here and I do have one book I want to check out that might at least help me understand what I'm obviously missing.

Thanks to all of you for your patience with me. I'm very slow to learn sometimes, especially when it comes to science.

 

This is what a few of us, think happened, Wombat. The 911 call was not made, because Patsy thought JonBenét was already dead, then hearing a whimper made Patsy realize JonBenét was still alive, and she was in a panic, and Patsy knew she had to do something fast. If this accident did happen when the family returned from the Whites, the whole family was up, and the staging began. They may have ushered Burke to go to bed, telling him JonBenét would be okay in the morning (?). Hypothetically! jmo

Through Delmar England's analysis of the garrote, we find this amateur ligature is a simple contraption created to look like a pedophile's tool, but Delmar has already proved that because of the chosen knots in this creation, it would not tighten; therefore this ligature was not responsible for the strangulation. To hurry JonBenét's death, it's possible she was strangled by hands, and the amateur ligature placed around her neck, giving a false impression that a pedophile had been on the premises. Three cheers for Delmar England and his expertise with knots.

http://www.acandyrose.com/05262001delmaranalysis3.htm

 

"Was all of the above part of a university course in criminal law, Deja? I'm very impressed! I will print this with WY's bruising information and study this when I have some extra time."

No, KK! LOL Law school is straight classroom/library/textbook effort. It'd be a cold day in hell when any high and mighty prof would shepherd his class to the morgue. Hey, maybe I could be the first...FIELD TRIP! My experience was garnered in the last 30 years of practice and life with a federal agent.

As to helping you understand why 45 lbs. is heavier dead than alive, I’m afraid you’ve taken me as far as I can go on the subject. You may be a slow learner in science, but I'm positively learning disabled! I've tried following expert testimony, but eventually just accepted it as truth since I couldn'ttravel the deep bunny trails of scientific logic. Bear in mind that oxygen or air in the tissues helps lighten the load and that isn’t a factor in dealing with dead bodies. But predominantly it’s a gravity-thang. Maybe wombat can extrapolate or somebody could find and post some research so we all could learn a lot more.

Your experiment with your grandson is interesting though. My own son, now 29, lamented the other day that he had a weird childhood growing up with a parent who’s obsessed with forensics and dead bodies, and the other parent actively tracking down federal criminals. He grew up with dinner conversations about Charlie Manson and Son of Sam. But he did say he felt it gave him a talent for profiling however. I wonder what impressions your grandchildren will have when they’re grown about grandma making them play dead so she could lug them around the house to test a theory! ROFLMAO Just don't ask them to test Smit's stun gun theory, k? :rs:

Hey, maybe you could take a field trip to The Body Farm, just don't take the grandkids.....and don't pack a lunch!

 

Hey Deja, it was me who asked this question. :bowdown:

Have you been on the sauce, Deja? Not to worry. I'm still drinking my white wine from dinner. :glug: Not Beer. Can't stand the stuff. Have only had beer a few times, and that was because my other half didn't trust the water as we drove through Europe. :beersign: <!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

 

Huh? What day is this? Who? :banghead: Sorry Elle, and KK. After spending the ENTIRE day multi-tasking, I'm just frustrated I can't do more to help KK understand this phenomenon. It is time for a little repast I guess..... :jumpie:

 

Physics of Inert Objects

Here's some physics without too much of the math:

I believe, but am not sure, that when a person dies their body "relaxes" onto the surface they are laying on, their muscles and joints relax, and that after an hour or so, rigor mortis begins.

This stuff I know: When you pick up a board, if you pick it up on one end, it seems heavier than when you pick it up in the middle. THat's because your hands are required to resist the "moment" of the board - its weight times its length squared divided by two. WHen you pick it up in the middle, the combined moments from either end are less, because of the squared aspect of the formula, so it seems like the board weighs less.

Also, when dragging something, the more of its surface area is in contract with the floor (or whatever), the more force it requires to move. The moving force is equal to its "coefficient of friction" times its normal force, or weight. When a person dies, more of their body (and clothes etc) are in contact with the floor. So the force required to drag them is actually bigger, even though they weigh the same.

Is this nitpicking?

 

After I made the above post I decided I'd better have some wine too!

 

Deja, Today is Monday. January, 2006, and I'm the Senior here. Hahahahaha!
I luv it when you edjimicated people slip up. Have another drink! I'll join you!
I just wish I had your brains, but there must be something I can do that you can't do. :toast: When I find it, I'll let you know. Have a lovely night Sweet Deja!

 

I like Lindemans' Chardonnay Bin 65, Wombat. Australian wine. LUVLY! Cheers!

 

"Deja, Today is Monday. January, 2006, and I'm the Senior here. Hahahahaha!
I luv it when you edjimicated people slip up. Have another drink! I'll join you!
I just wish I had your brains, but there must be something I can do that you can't do. When I find it, I'll let you know. Have a lovely night Sweet Deja!"

Well, when it comes to age, wombat, I still have a couple years on ya. :steamed: But our dear Elle beats the pants off me! :hiya:

Ok, here's a GOOD story before I fall too deeply into me cups. One time on another forum, I totally screwed up reading the docket sheet for the Fox case and had the insanity to post it unknowingly. Our fav psycho who worships all things legal caught it instantly and slammed me royally. Of course I instantly apologized and acknowledged her Grand Psychoness was right and I wrong. Graciousness be damned, she just couldn't let it go so I soundly took my due abuse determined not to let her drive me as nuts as she is.

Now my dear wombat, there is absolutely ONE true thing you can always do better than me. You are the quintessential wombat, unique in charm, aplomb and humor, among many other talents. I could never fill your shoes, nor am I so insane I'd even try. So here's another round in celebration of that magical creature we know and love as wombat...may she live and reign in glory. God save the Queen! hick...hick...hick :bigstick:

 

Good lord, y'all have the wine, I'm going for the whiskey!

I just spent the last few hours reading autopsy stuff and forensics on bruising and yadayadayada. People who do this stuff must be seriously strange.

Kinda' like us! :borgsmile

Yeah, DejaNu, I've given my grandson enough material for either as prolific a career as Stephen King or a life of therapy.

By the way...the good news...HE MADE STRAIGHT A's this semester! Yeeehaw! He was KING for a Day!

At any rate, I'm with y'all on most details. We know what was done and that it's a short list of "who done it".... The sequence of events...I really need to find my posts on that. Yours sounds a lot like what I was thinking, wombat.

Oh, wanted to say I remember the "Patsy's giant ring" picture from either the NE or the Globe. She had her hands turned palm out, flat and held up for all to see. There was that big old ring, winking at us.

 

Hahahaha I KNOW that story, DejaNu, because gutter candy ALWAYS blames ME for your honest mistake! She SPEWS at us for DELIBERATELY LYINGLYINGLYINGLYING AND MURDERING THE TRUTH!! I swear, if she's run any other accusation of us being horribly stupid idiots over a simple error into the ground all-the-way-to-China more than this one, please, don't remind me.... You made the mistake based on my posting lots of dull information on TWO SUITS on the same thread: Wolf v Ramsey and I think the other one was Ramsey v Thomas. It was all just technical listings online of dates of case filings. Easy to confuse while discussing both at once. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO WAAAAAAAAY! WE LIED AND ATTACKED AND MURDERED THE TRUTH! We gutter gossip lowest of the low have been permanently ostracized from every LE thought for eternity!!

It's good to be the BADDEST, isn't it?! :tipsy:

Oh, I'm almost embarrassed to post this, as I was on a one-woman roll there for awhile. Y'all know how I get when the mood strikes me.... But if you can make it through, I did finally get it all together into a theory similar to yours wombat:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6413&page=1

 

Shush! I might end up with no more replies here! Deja!

KK stop dragging your grandchildren all over the floor, for experiments, or I'll report you to Child Care!

 

I believe you might be referring to the picture which is with the June 13, 2001 Star article- Cop's fury as Ramseys demand: CLEAR OUR NAME!, which I still have. The ring that is turned around is on her right ring finger.

-Tea

 

OH! I didn't think of dragging him all over the floor! Hm. Wonder if Patsy would give me a few tips? Thanks, Elle! He'll be back soon! irate:

 

Could be. It's around these forums somewhere. What a picture! We all about dropped our false teeth into our gin.

 

Gin, whiskey, wine....good Lord, what's become of us? That's what happens to good people who can't find any friggin' JUSTICE! :verdict: And they drag their kids around the floor making them play dead to test theories or spend dinners chatting gruesome case facts with their 9 year olds. Yet, KK, we are STILL not as whack as Candyland. I'm sorry you've taken so much heat for my mistake but then, we could be lying in unmarked graves next to her relatives. Count your blessings! :laffbig:

 

As long as y'all aren't stun gunning your children I think we're ok.