Melodie and Luther Stanton...

You're a tonic, JIC! I must admit I'm the same once I get going with anything related to this case. It's hard to let go. I just keep on connecting the dots, and there are so many winding roads to walk along in this case. I'm hoping that somewhere, someone will waken up in the middle of the night with evidence that has been right under our noses all the time. something so simple which will pinpoint the last person to see JonBenét alive.

I keep coming back to Delmar England having taken one look at the garrote, and knew instantly that this was a fake. No one else has been able to do this. This is why he is so certain the Ramseys are involved, and yet not one person in LE has challenged him on this. So ... I am very much influenced by Delmar and his analysis of the ransom note and garrote, JIC ... but is there something else escaping us?


Yes, I was puzzled about John Fernie looking through the door and reading the ransom note, and I didn't believe that when I read it for the first time, so there could be a lot in what you say. I have always felt all those friends who were present, were in that house long before 6:00 am.

When John Ramsey was on a "Larry King Live" show and was asked about the kidnapping, his reply was ..."It was difficult with so many people buzzing around the house at 3:00 am." 3:00 am (?). JonBenét wasn't found missing until "supposedly" 5:30 am. (?).

Thor, one of the posters here was the first one I know to post this information, and if she's reading this, maybe she will post more about it, but this made me sit up and take notice. Here we have John with another blooper.

Then there was the time, when he talked to his son and daughter in the van outside his home on the morning of the 26 December, 1996. Just as they arrived, he was getting ready to leave 755 15th Street. He cries and talks about finding JonBenét's body at 11:00 am. ...and yet she wasn't found by him until after 1:00 pm. (?).

Nothing but lies JIC. So ... happy sleuthing! I always enjoy your interesting posts.

 

Thanks Tricia!! I really think that his statement about reading the ransom note through the door was a bunch of crap, he used nearly the exact words that Patsy used when she explained discovering the note "after the first few lines..." I still can't believe he said it was face down too!! His glasses aren't coke bottle thick or anything but I highly doubt he read it through the door. (IMO) Fernie's a possibility as far as removing items from the crime scene.
Liar

I Just finished the Tom Miller chat, I got a strange vibe from him too, had this been before I decided Judith was a 'good guy' I'd suspect he was lying or using "Operational Deception" tactics to confuse the people online. LOL

 

Thanks Little!!

So often I find myself taking paragraphs out of posts because they get so long, I get into one thing and then it connects to something totally different and then off I go; sometimes I even delete posts all together because they just get way too long and I can't summarize any further. It's good to know I'm not annoying you!!

 

Here is the portion of the Larry King interview that I found off of ACR's archives. This interview was on 3/27/00 and John was talking about finding JonBenet.

KING: Did you try anything to revive her, CPR?

J. RAMSEY: I took the tape off her mouth, I tried to untie her arms. They were very tightly bound. I couldn't get the knot unbound and then I just -- I picked her up and I just screamed, the kind of scream you scream in a dream when you -- you're trying to speak, but you can't. It's just a scream.

KING: When you -- did you see her, too?

P. RAMSEY: I heard him scream.

KING: You never saw her?

P. RAMSEY: Yes, I did then see her. My friends were -- I was in the TV room and they were -- I said what is it? What is it? And they kept, you know, holding me, wait, I don't know what it is. One of our friends ran into the room and said, we need an ambulance, tried to dial 911, and I kept screaming, what is it? What is it? And, you know, then in just a couple of minutes, then I walked into the living room.

KING: What did the police say? Did they say anything? Did they...

J. RAMSEY: Well, Linda Arndt was the only police person that was there that I recall.

KING: They all had left? The others had left?

J. RAMSEY: Well, I don't know. There were a lot of people there at 3:00 in the morning.

 

The hope we all have that this case will be solved or that there will be some kind of resolution is enough to keep things going, and one day I think it will just dawn on someone, something like the window screens barricading the freezer in the basement.

Thousands of people have seen that same pic but so far I've been the first to mention the significance in the window screens being there when the rest of them were put away in the wine cellar, where there was plenty of room for three times as many as it took to hide whatever was in or around that freezer.

Delmar's analysis didn't really sink in for me until the third time I read it, and I read the entire thing at once that time, I tried to create the garotte using his instructions and had a really hard time because I skipped the part where it said that the tool wouldn't work as a 'noose' no matter how exact the re-construction was to the real thing.

John's slip-ups are something I've taken an interest in as well, both he and Patsy have made some interesting remarks in the past, if they didn't have so much money they'd have been treated a lot differently when stuff like this happened.

John's got so much to remember that it would be impossible for him to get everything exactly right, and he's trying to defy these odds every time he slips up that bad and doesn't just shake his head and say "you know what, this is what happened." Same goes with Patsy, she's too much to even describe, sometimes I wish I knew someone like her so I could just marvel (in person) at the amount of confidence she has in herself when she's lying through her teeth. They make me sick, even knowing how badly they have disrespected their own child, it's just so hard to understand how they couldn't have just come clean. If it was an accident, they could've proved it had someone come forward. If it was intentional, or the result of a rage incident, they'd be able to figure that out too.

Instead of letting their money do the talking first, they tried to obscure the evidence and what really happened to make it look like someone else did it; they couldn't admit they were responsible for her death because they couldn't stand the thought of living any differently.

 

Thor posted this from the CNN LKL interview:

But in Schiller's book he wrote:

 

Thank you for posting and confirming this, Thor. So glad you checked in.
I cannot understand why we haven't heard any more about this statement from John Ramsey. No one has challenged him with these mistakes.
I wonder if the Grand Jury ever dicussed them (?).

Little,

I read the same account elsewhere, that she never budged when all the shouting was going on. To me, this was not a normal reaction of a mother anxious to find her kidnapped daughter.

 

Thanks for posting this Thor.

This is full of stuff to talk about, look at his choice of words:
"I took the tape off her mouth" The only evidence we have that the tape was actually on her mouth is the lip imprint, which indicates there were no attempts made to remove it by JonBenet, she was either dead or incapacitated when it was placed on there; not because she was screaming which would be the only explanation for that being there (other than staging-which is obviously the case) she hadn't used her tongue to remove it. "they were very tightly bound."

look at his choice of words:
J. RAMSEY:" I took the tape off her mouth, I tried to untie her arms. They were very tightly bound. I couldn't get the knot unbound and then I just -- I picked her up and I just screamed, <the kind of scream you scream in a dream when you -- you're trying to speak, but you can't. It's just a scream.> "

He tried to untie her arms?? He's an experienced sailor and doesn't know how to untie a knot? The same applies to the construction, he makes it sound like he could never create something so sophisticated, yet he's a sailor and probably a former scout as well. And BOUND? They were a tad more complicated than shoelace knots!!! Just wanted to point out that everything from the < to the > doesn't even make sense.

Patsy admits she saw JonBenet just after Fleet came running upstairs and tried to dial 911. That sufficiently answered the question but she rambles on and tries to 'explain' why it took her so long to get from the 'TV room' to the livingroom, but doesn't do a very good job; all she offered for resistance was asking "what is it?" five or six times? That doesn't seem like Patsy at all.

This has always just bothered me. I don't know what to make of it, I just wonder if it's what he was thinking at that moment, but it came out...

 

Absolutely right, JIC.

And here's Patsy on finding the ransom note ...

PATSY RAMSEY: "I remember my voice just cracking. I mean it was like JOHN, like that. I mean like, I can't even, you know, I hear my scream and I hear his scream when he came up from the basement. I mean it was just a horrible thing. You know, it was just --"

The Ramseys tend to revert to gobbledy-gook when they're lying. It's typical of someone trying to make up, or embellish, an answer.

John was trying to portray the idea that it was the first time he'd seen JonBenet since her "disappearance," so he was having trouble with the truth. He felt he needed to embellish his "discovery" with something dramatic in order to make it sound like he was finding JonBenet for the first time.

Same thing with Patsy.

She tries to embellish finding the ransom note with a dramatic segue about "screams" because she was making up what she thought sounded right for a mother discovering a ransom note FOR THE FIRST TIME.

Because they are both lying about what happened, their answers dissolve into a mish-mash of tortured syntax and incoherent narrative.

 

Holy Cherokee, way to pick out the similarities in statements!!

See how they both say they screamed, John screamed just after he found JonBenet and Patsy screamed just after she found the note... Nobody heard these screams, according to them, not even Burke did. And see how they both try to describe their scream for the interviewer, I get the feeling that they did this for the sole purpose of making that aspect of their story sound believable.

Nobody has ever said it any better than this:

"Because they are both lying about what happened, their answers dissolve into a mish-mash of tortured syntax and incoherent narrative."

 

John Ramsey states I took the tape off her mouth, I tried to untie her arms. They were very tightly bound. I couldn't get the knot unbound and then I just -- I picked her up and I just screamed, the kind of scream you scream in a dream when you -- you're trying to speak, but you can't. It's just a scream. ...and this is all wrong because the loop around her left wrist was so loose it fell off.

It's on record in the autopsy there was just one ligature around the right wrist, so ...when did the loop fall off her left wrist? When he carried her upstairs? This doesn't match what John Ramsey is saying about her arms being tightly bound.

 

You're right Elle, I think he does it because he wants people to think the crime was committed by someone who KNEW how to construct and use a garotte, even though it was useless. He's not being very detailed, he's stopping short and cutting into other stuff, almost as if he knows he'll slip up like he did with the 3 o'clock in the morning comment. He's such an imbellisher, I don't understand why he repeatedly says they were 'tightly BOUND', here's what he said in the Barbara Walters interview.

BW: this. Um, that you loosely tied your daughter's hands. That you put the noose, the garrote, to make it look as if some terrible person had done this. That this whole picture was staged.

JOHN RAMSEY Well, that's absurd. This was done by a terrible person. <The garrote...was deeply embedded in JonBenet's throat. Her hands were tightly bound, I couldn't get the knot untied, I tried to get it untied, even before I brought her upstairs,> The fundamental issue is no logic has been applied to any of this case. Why would I for example have staged this horrible scene, and then disturbed it myself, pulled the tape off her mouth, carried her upstairs, tried to untie the hands before I brought her upstairs. If I'd have staged it, I would've wanted the police to see it as I staged it. It's not logical. Makes no sense."


http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/03172000ramseyonbarbarawalters.htm

John knows which words to use to create a certain impression and which ones not to use that may create the wrong impression:

BW:"you loosely tied your daughter's hands. That you put the noose, the garrote, to make it look as if<o></o> some terrible person had done this."

And he responds:

"Her hands were tightly bound, I couldn't get the knot untied, I tried to get it untied, even before I brought her upstairs.."

**note how he says "the knot" not "the knots", but there were two knots on the wrist cord, and at least one on the neck cord.

Why wouldn't he go for the 'strangulation device' first?? I think he wanted to get rid of the tied up hands because he knew how ridiculous it looked but Fleet White came in so he made it look like he was in a panic trying to untie her, not trying to get rid of evidence.

He goes off topic so many times in this response that he's got to be lying about something...
"Her hands were tightly bound, I couldn't get the knot untied, I tried to get it untied, even before I brought her upstairs,"--But at this point he totally goes somewhere else-- "The fundamental issue is no logic has been applied to any of this case. Why would I for example have staged this horrible scene, and then disturbed it myself,-- but now he goes on to describe his version of the events-- pulled the tape off her mouth, carried her upstairs, tried to untie the hands [*not her hands, the hands-indicating he knew she was dead] before I brought her upstairs. If I'd have staged it, I would've wanted the police to see it as I staged it. It's not logical. Makes no sense."


HE makes no sense...

You had to get me started on the wack stuff these guys say, didn't you? Now I'm going through all of their interviews to check to see how their responses to similar questions differ or are similar.

I'm 100% positive that Patsy and John Fernie have spent quite some time discussing the events because their statements contain several of the same elements, I've been working on that, and boy is that one going to be interesting when it's all broken into singular phrases and key words. John and Patsy's vocabulary differs more than her's and John Fernies, this bothers me...

<o></o> [font=&quot][/font]<o></o>

 

You bet JIC. Have to keep you on the go. Trouble is when I'm replying , I forget about all those other eyes reading our posts. :laughup: I agree with all you have to say above. We all know there are many John Ramsey statements which haven't been challenged.

I'm totally baffled as to how Patsy and John Ramsey have managed to get away with all of these statements which don't add up JIC. We just have to keep on talking about them, and hope Tom Bennet, the present investigator has his own list going for him, and will be the CHALLENGER (?).

What I would like to know is what happened to the tight ligature on JonBenét's left wrist between the time John Ramsey carried her upstairs, and Dr. Meyer's autopsy (?). That loop which was over her left wrist was not cut. It fell off, or someone else pulled it off, and it is not on the autopsy records. Weird!

http://www.acandyrose.com/12271996autopsy.htm

 

This is the portion of John's 1997 interview where he explains the discovery of JonBenet:
http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1997BD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

TT: Can, could you tell me step-by-step when you found her, tell me how you picked her up and tell me (inaudible).<?xml:namespace prefix = o /><o></o>

JR: Right. I found her and I, the first hope of course is that she’s OK. I took the tape off her lips, and her lips were blue. And I tried to untie her hands and her arms. She was stiff, and so I was afraid that she was gone, and so I just picked her up, and screams [screamed?], and then I went upstairs and laid her down on the floor and I heard Suzanne--[Linda Arndt?]she said she’s dead.

A little while later in the same interview, John admits that only one loop was still attached:

ST: And when you say you undid the binding, was that a knotted fashion around both wrists?<o></o>

JR: Yeah. I tried to get her, I tried to get it completely undone. So when I took her upstairs, it was still partially around her wrist.

He's lying about it Elle, I think the only reason he's even talking about wrist ligatures is because he's not sure whether Fleet White saw him trying to remove them, while he was standing behind him in the wine cellar. I think it's quite possible that he heard Fleet make a noise (like scream or say Oh my God!) and he stopped trying to remove the cord because he didn't want it to seem suspicious; instead he picked her up and ran with her.

John could have wanted to remove the cords on her hands because he knew how ridiculous they seemed, he knew the kidnapping scenario was dead and gone since they now had a body, the staging was necessary to a point but he didn't want it to look like overkill either. If he had gotten any further with removing that cord, we'd probably never have known it existed, it would have been slipped into his pocket and would have been gone as soon as he got to the Fernies. Everyone in Boulder has a fireplace...

 

Thank you JIC for finding this. Here he has admitted that the loop was still partially around the wrist, as if he had something to do with the loop falling off. First he talks about the knots being too tight and now we have him claiming responsibility for the loop being partially on her wrist, but we don't hear him saying the loop actually fell off.

Hypothetically JIC, the only way John Ramsey could have thought like this, is, if he wasn't involved in the staging at all, and was finding JonBenét's body for the first time, but it doesn't fit in with John Ramsey assisting in the staging. Know what I mean? What would have been the point of him undoing the staging he had helped create? I'm willing to believe there may have been a psychological twist to this (?), and I do think a great deal of psychology was worked out with Patsy Ramsey. I would say she was a master of the craft. However, liars always make mistakes, and this is why we keep falling over the Ramsey's lies.

Thanks again JIC for the time taken to research.

 

Sorry it took so long to reply, today has been brutal busy.

Nope, he doesn't actually say it does he? It could be because he knew if he went that far in saying it actually came off, then they would have eliminated her being alive while she was tied up because the knots were so loose she would have had no trouble just slipping the loops off her hands.

Not necessarily, most people assume that John and Patsy were in the entire thing together but none of us have really taken into consideration that the Ramsey's had a really loveless marriage, the novel on JonBenet's night table beside the extra bed tells me that either Patsy or someone else who read had recently slept there; I don't know what the novel is but that's not the point. I think this is why Patsy said she didn't read all that much, she didn't want anyone to find out that they'd lied about sleeping in the same bed.

Patsy could have done everything while John slept, she could have already been asleep herself in the spare bed in JonBenet's room and JonBenet woke her up with crappy pants, and Patsy could have flipped out but not loudly enough that it would awake John who says he took a sleeping pill. Patsy could very well have hit JonBenet's head off the tap in the bathroom while trying to clean her up or got angry and pushed her and she fell toward it and hit it; it all could have happened that close to John and he could have slept through it.

If the blow to JonBenet's head knocked her out instantly, no scream would have been heard then, but when and if she regained consciousness she would have been in excruciating pain and probably would have screamed. So what if by the time she'd regained consciouness Patsy had already taken her to the basement and hidden her thinking she was dead? And when she regained consciousness and screamed, it's possible the garotte had already been attached as part of the staging and she pulled the noose tight to block her air passage; or she may have only intended to use the garotte as staging and felt like she had to make it look real so she pulled it tight and actually killed her and didn't know it.

Outside the wine cellar door, that painting that sat against the wall and was propped up there by the paint tray,(and was taken from the house by Pam Paugh when she went to disturb the crime scene) maybe it had been already done up in the sling and taped, sitting there waiting to go to whomever it was painted for. And when Patsy got the idea to stage the murder she took off the sling to use it as a strangulation device, but not knowing how to tie her own shoes at that point caused her to basically slap it together and hope for the best; it didn't work so well so I think she manually strangled her at the same time.

Looking at the autopsy photo, it's not obvious right away, but lowering the bright light and adjusting the contrast slightly revealed handprints that are smaller, Patsy does have little hands...
I also have a photo of a man who was assaulted pretty badly, manual strangulation hand prints are prominent on his back, but I wanted to mention before hand that the man is alive and well; he was robbed but wanted to share his story on the internet and luckily I found it for a heck of a comparison for sizing as well as where the prints are located.

Photo #1 is the autopsy photo
Photo #2 is the autopsy photo with the contrast adjusted and the brighness lowered.
Photo #3 is the assault victim's back, note the locations of 'handprints' are very similar, though it's obvious that the attacker in this photo had much larger hands.

http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/jonbenet_patricia_ramsey/vwp?.dir=/Autopsy+Photos&.dnm=Hand+Prints-Shoulders.jpg&.src=gr&.view=t&.hires=t
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/jonbenet_patricia_ramsey/vwp?.dir=/Autopsy+Photos&.dnm=Living+assault+victim.jpg&.src=gr&.view=t&.hires=t

I think all the staging was done by Patsy and the body was already hidden by the time that she heard John wake up, realizing she needed to act fast she scrawled out the ransom note, at the same time she was seething angry with John and blamed him for everything for being such an absentee husband; she intentionally tied that ransom note to his work in that manner because she wanted to be sure he understood that it was his fault because he worked all the time and left her to take care of everything on such a tight budget with what she needed to cover.

I think John didn't know she was dead until he found her hidden behind those window screens and the freezer in the basement. Being so out of place, John would have investigated right away knowing all of the screens were placed in the wine cellar when they were removed sometime after the summer and replaced with storm windows; he found her and knew he couldn't make any noise or just go up and say I found her. So he decided to move the body to a place where she'd be found, making the comment that day about it being an 'inside job' could have referred to his belief that Patsy was guilty. After finding the body around 10 that morning he paced all day long, probably wondering what he was going to do. Over the course of the day he probably realized how screwed he already was, if he told on Patsy, Patsy told on him; his career is what he was really trying to salvage.

But the only reason he stuck by her (IMO) was because he really was molesting JonBenet, and maybe that's why Patsy decided to sleep in the next bed over, so that he couldn't do it; I recall her saying during an interview that it would have been impossible for John to have done it but she refers to a few years back when her mother was caring for her and the kids while she had cancer; she said her mother slept in the other bed so he couldn't because grandma was right there. But she didn't make any sense because there was a two year gap in time between her battle with cancer and the murder, I think she admitted right there that John had been molesting JonBenet and that she resorted to sleeping in that other bed to protect her from the abuse.

I think the whole psychological twist is that John and Patsy's marriage was a sham, he was a pedophile thanks to his time spent in Olongapo City. I think he used Patsy as a means of quelling talk, they created that image of the perfect family and everyone believed it, they fed on it, but I think John intended to keep things the way they were and Patsy couldn't stand it any longer even though she had to have agreed somewhat because of the money factor. If they divorced she would no longer be the CEO's wife and going to important functions and events as well. Socially, she enjoyed her reputation as being wealthy but very generous very much, it enabled her to look like a real humanitarian when really she was quite ignorant and very shallow. She had really no other choice, growing up in a home with Nedra the shallow crazy witch who vicariously lived her dreams of being someone pretty through her two daughters.

It was such a Scarlett O'Hara and Rhett Butler relationship (On acid-mind you) that they were literally in complete disdain for one another but knew how to put on a really great show in public. It was a recipe for disaster that was really well covered up for the amount of media attention that it drew.

This took me a long time to finish, two and a half hours to be exact. I've been through it and think it's pretty factual, I don't think it's solid proof that John had absolutely nothing to do with the murder or staging; that's just my opinion (of the moment) I believe he only stays with Patsy because he has to keep up with the facade.

 

Great effort, JIC. This case does get a grip on you, doesn't it?

This is what many of us think happened JIC, so we can all go along with Steve Thomas right up to this point ...that Patsy Ramsey was in a rage and she lost it. It's possibe she wakened John up to help her create the staging. Steve Thomas thinks it was Patsy "alone"who was responsible, giving John a pass, but I think John was a part of the staging scene.

I think it's only natural when one partner is sick, the other one sleeps alone to allow for non disturbance. I believe Patsy's love life diminished when she was sick with Cancer, according to what I read, It must have been a traumatic time for her. As for John and his Melatonin knocking him out - that's his excuse and he's sticking to it.

This has been well discussed before. JIC, and I can't come up to par with Delmar England .

http://www.acandyrose.com/05262001delmaranalysis2.htm Whether the garrote was already around her neck, it wasn't a good functioning tool for strangulation, according to Delmar.

It's possible, and depending on the size of the canvas, a 12" x 18" or a 16" x 20" one could measure the amount of cord needed to make the sling. I paint myself, but I have never used a rope sling, but the amount of cord found used for the garrote could be measured approximately and added up.

I remember reading that the handle part was 17" which was too long. The autopsy would need to be checked to measure up the rest. The small amount used for the sling, would take care of why there wasn't any surplus cord found. I still can't get over Pam Paugh in the borrowed police jacket making two trips to the Ramsey home. Who has ever heard of a fiasco like this before after a house has been cordoned off by yellow tape? Unbelievable!

Delmar England (see url above):

Now for a look at the handle which has been prominent in internet photos and "identified" as "professional and complex." (What profession?) As part of the refutation of this nonsensical characterization is clear evidence of ignorant amateur by the 17 inch distance of the handle from the slip point and the neck.

Pulling the handle without holding down the victim would result in energy going into lifting the body and not in decreasing size of he loop for strangulation. To hold down the body with one hand and pull via handle 17 inches away with the other places the elbow at an acute angle with a consequent substantial decrease in pulling power as well as decrease in control. This elbow angle is more suitable for eating than applying pressure in a strangulation.

continued tomorrow ... ... ... ...






.

 

Yeah, there's something about this case that just grabs you and won't let go until there's a resolution of some kind. It's not fair to have so much evidence against two people who've lied like rugs when they weren't refusing to speak to police alltogether "because it was their right." What makes me sick is those two people were her parents and were supposed to have loved and protected her the most.

Yeah, the rage theory is obviously the most popular by far. It's also possible that she didn't wake him up at all, I personally can't see her telling him what she'd done without an army of people in between them first. I think she waited until John Fernie was there before she told him, that way John could hear from a vestry member at St. John's that it was a forgivable act; apparently so forgivable that Rector Rol needed to come over at 7am and wait six hours to 'find out' that JonBenet was dead. Several frequent and often flagrant contributors to the church including but not limited to: Rector Rol, Bryan Morgan, Dr. Beuf, The Ramsey's, The Fernies, probably Peter Hofstrom, all play major roles in this case; and I personally believe that politics takes a backseat to the religious connections in this case.

I've come an extremely long way with my feelings for Patsy thanks to everyone here. When I first arrived I despised her and wanted nothing more than for her to rot in hell for what I thought she'd done; I even remember making a negative comment about her dying because of her cancer. Since then, I've learned a lot about who she was as a person and where she came from, which really means everything in this case. I feel a profound sadness when I look into her eyes, and it almost as though I understand but I don't.

After so many years of being left alone to be both parents, dealing with cancer while John really could have cared less it seems, and having to pretend that everythings perfect, she probably had a serious closet drinking problem, how else could she have coped with knowing her entire life was a lie and that nothing would ever change unless she was willing to give up a few of the finer things in life, like the pageants; she knew she couldn't afford to keep going at the pace that they were without lot's of money.

I know it didn't function properly but that doesn't mean there wasn't enough cord there to strangle JonBenet any other way, Patsy could have wrapped the cord around her neck twice or three times and just held it; or she could come in from behind JonBenet and placed it around her neck and then crossed the cords. I'm actually more prone to believing that Patsy manually strangled JonBenet the moment she began screaming and later used the cord as staging (although the pic I've been working on, it does appear to be embedded into the back of her neck--greatest point of pressure)

I'll see what I can find for instructions on how to make these slings, I really think she just tore it off the painting and that's how those cotton fibers got everywhere but they never sourced; I wonder if canvas material includes cotton...

17" is too long for what? A sling? or a garotte? I think she made the garotte a little longer because she knew she needed to use all of the cord, I think she used the swiss army knife to cut the cord in one spot to make the wrist ligature. And as far as Pam Paugh goes---I know!! Isn't it maddening??? I'd love to know who allowed that to happen? What could they have possibly needed that they couldn't just buy? Sister Socks was important but it wasn't even on Pams mind, so why could she have wanted to remove that painting, the santa bear and Patsy's All American Dolls (or whatever) more??

Delmar England (see url above):

Now for a look at the handle which has been prominent in internet photos and "identified" as "professional and complex." (What profession?) As part of the refutation of this nonsensical characterization is clear evidence of ignorant amateur by the 17 inch distance of the handle from the slip point and the neck.

Pulling the handle without holding down the victim would result in energy going into lifting the body and not in decreasing size of he loop for strangulation. To hold down the body with one hand and pull via handle 17 inches away with the other places the elbow at an acute angle with a consequent substantial decrease in pulling power as well as decrease in control. This elbow angle is more suitable for eating than applying pressure in a strangulation.

I don't think Patsy got the idea of the garotte to use it like one, I think she mainly wanted to create the impression that people from a foreign country that use them had murdered JonBenet; so she probably created it at the same time or around the time she wrote the note. I understand Delmar's analysis completely and until I read it, I believed it had been used as that style garotte, but it was about the time that I read it for the third time that I realized that Patsy didn't try to use it as a garotte should be used, she tried but was unsuccessful so she tried something else. That something else caused the broken paintbrush/handle to stop right where that mark is on JonBenet's cheek and while Patsy strangled her it pressed against her cheek and actually pierced from the pressure; but because Patsy grabbed so low on JonBenets neck (almost her shoulders) nothing inside JonBenet's neck was damaged, though the skin on her collarbone took a good rubbing.

continued tomorrow ... ... ... ...

I'm pooped, I have an appointment early tomorrow and don't know if it'll take me into the afternoon but I'll respond as soon as I get in my door, I swear I won't even take my runners off first!!







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Originally Posted by Elle1
I remember reading that the handle part was 17" which was too long.

Just the handle, JIC. This 17* plus the remainder for the hand ties and wound round the handle. Of course, as I said above, it all depends on the size of the canvas. 18" x 24" for instance would take up much more cord. Yes, you can have a softer linen canvas which is stapled to a wooden frame as opposed to the hard type.

Hey! I haven't even finished the other half, JIC. Are you glued to that chair? Is someone whipping you?:whipit:

Running upstairs for Multi-Vitamin B :-(

 

Sorry, JIC the above url's just bring up the Yahoo signing page. Any chance you could save the graphics and post them here? I don't want to sign up for Yahoo. I would appreciate this, only if it isn't too inconvenient. Sounds very interesting.