"Mortal Evidence" Dr.Wecht

Yes, I heard that about Priscilla

I heard she is petite and very lovely. Patsy couldn't get her fat as$ in Priscilla's clothes, no way.

 

Nice you knew Ruthee, DejaNu. What an amazing amount of work she did. I'm pleased ACandyRose has her work on file where Jams can't touch it. I posted at JW for a short spell before it closed.

You're right, DejaNu. John Ramsey denied being with JonBenét for anything sexual. Lin wood interrupted. The blanket and blue fibres haven't been explained either. Frustrating! I wonder if Tom Bennett has checked these out (?).

Patsy Ramsey was quick to let the police know Priscilla White had a red and black jacket like hers, and even stated she could have been wearing Priscilla's. Reading Tricia's post, this doesn't seem possible, but she did say this. Trust me! If anyone comes across this until I have the time to find it, please post it. It would be easier to find doing a search of Spade's police files.

Ruthee was right, it was well planned. The Ramseys needed witnesses for their plan to work, with both of them making contact with JonBenét's body after she was dead. They're free!

 

Wooden shard/s Bob (?)

Bob, you will remember we were talking about the wooden shards found in JonBenét's vagina. It appears to be shards in this document:

Wolf vs Ramsey Civil Case 1:00-CV-1187-JEC
Carnes Order March 31, 2003 (Page 11 thru 20)

http://www.acandyrose.com/03312003carnes11-20.htm

Page 17

12 The bleeding in JonBenet's genital area indicates she was alive when she was assaulted. (SMF 48; PSMF 48.) Her hymen was torn and material consistent with wooden shards from the paintbrush used to make the garrote were found in her vagina. (SMF 48-49; PMSF 48-49.) No evidence, however, suggests that she was the victim of chronic sexual abuse. (SMF 50; PSMF 50.)

 

What was found in JB's vagina, from what I've read, is birefringent material. That can be cellulose. It COULD be from the paintbrush, but it could also be paper from a PullUp, IMO. Of course, I stand to be corrected on this issue.

 

Ramsey's clothes

While searching for information on the black and red jacket ... ...

Spade
Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 345
clothing
Keep in mind that Bonita wrote-up her info in 1999. The 2000 Atlanta interviews verify much of what she says about clothing, but are more up-to-date.

One of the problems in the investigation was delayed gathering of
evidence. It was not until almost a year after the murder that the Boulder police through D.A. Hofstrom finally asked for the clothing worn by Ramsey family members to Whites’ dinner party on the night of December 25. Fleet had taken photos during the holiday gathering which were turned over to the police department, and police request the clothing that was depicted in these photos. Another month would go by before the Ramseys, through their legal counsel and private investigators, would comply with this request.

At that time, two black shirts from John and black pants and a red and black checked sweater from Patsy were provided. Two months later additional clothing, a red short sleeved shirt and a red turtleneck shirt, were also turned over by Patsy through the private investigator. The police department was informed that since John owned several pairs of khaki pants matching those in the photograph, John had not been able to determine which pair were worn on December 25. Not only had all of this clothing probably been reworn and been through many cleaning or laundering processes, the move from the Ramsey home had been done by a professional moving company. once again, contamination of evidence obtained from these articles of clothing could very likely present problems in any prosecution.

Considering the delayed cooperation from the Ramseys in turning over the clothing, it was significant what items of clothing requested by the police department were not turned over. Patsy had told the officers that she had worn black short boots, to the White’s dinner party. The boots had never beaver been given to police officials in spite of repeated requests. At a subsequent session with the police department to give handwriting samples, Patsy had been wearing short black fur boots, and the detectives wondered if these were the boots that the Ramseys were saying they could not locate. The detectives were anxious to locate the fur boots to test for beaver hair.

 

Ellie--what I recall of that shard was that there was only one and very small. Can anyone help?

 

Trouble is Bob, there is so much information out there, and sometimes mistakes are made. This last document was from the Courts. One would think they would have the correct information, but this isn't the case. Look at all the wrong information that's in Judge Carne's report leaning toward an invisible intruder. I personally like to give the source when I can, but this isn't always possible.

Gets to be frustrating after a while, doesn't it? Still, most posters know this is happening.

 

Absolutely. For four years everyone from the media on down to the forums was quoting Psalm 118, and it turned out to be some other Psalm according to Steve Thomas. So ya never know. And I do mean we will never know.

 

why didnt the detectives take

john and patsy's clothing that day....or that next day?

i dont understand who goofed or why they goofed.

wouldnt it be against the law to withhold clothing/evidence for
years and years and years???

i dont get that.

anyone know,
purr

 

Unbelievable, Purr!

Doesn't make any sense, does it Purr? The Ramseys walked away from the scene of the crime with their clothes on their back. They should have been led into a Police car straight away. Unbelievable!

Linda Arnd'ts clothes were bagged that day and handed in. Go figure!?

 

Elle and Imon

Elle, your prior post quotes:

"http://www.acandyrose.com/03312003carnes11-20.htm

Wolf vs Ramsey Civil Case 1:00-CV-1187-JEC
Carnes Order March 31, 2003 (Page 11 thru 20)

Page 17

12 The bleeding in JonBenet's genital area indicates she was alive when she was
assaulted. (SMF 48; PSMF 48.) Her hymen was torn and material consistent with
wooden shards from the paintbrush used to make the garrote were found in her
vagina. (SMF 48-49; PMSF 48-49.) No evidence, however, suggests that she was
the victim of chronic sexual abuse. (SMF 50; PSMF 50.)"

Imon, your prior post asks for clarification of birefringent material.

Here are some interesting facts I found in searching old articles:

Page 9, Autopsy Report:

"Vaginal Mucosa: All of the sections contain vascular congestion and focal interstitial chronic inflammation. The smallest piece of tissue, from the 7:00 position of the vaginal wall/hymen, contains epithelial erosion with underlying capillary congestion. A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface, as is birefringent foreign material. Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen."

At the time the autopsy report was released (1997), it was felt this birefringent, or shiny, foreign material could have been the deposit of a latex glove in the vaginal tract. However, later, many of the Boulder and Denver newspapers started reporting that it was indeed a small shard of the paintbrush that was used in the "garotte." I have not found any substantiation for that claim, but they were all reporting it as something investigators said.

Per Smit: "At some point, the child was then hit over the head with such force it crushed her skull. But her nightmare wasn’t over. Shortly before she died, investigators believe she was sexually assaulted with a piece of the paintbrush that was used to make the garrote."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/01/48hours/main523884.shtml

One of these investigators was probably Linda Arndt:
http://www.courttv.com/archive/national/1999/0915/ramsey2_ap.html

Boulder County Coroner John Meyer, who conducted the autopsy on 6-year-old JonBenet, said the child's pubic area showed evidence consistent with having been wiped by a cloth.
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/extra/ramsey/1107jonnn.shtml

Note that Meyer's statement was NOT that the entire body was wiped down, but only her pubic area. WHY if no sexual assault had taken place prior to the staging? This could explain the multi colored fibers, including the dark blue ones, mentioned in an earlier post. This revelation coupled with ONLY John Ramsey's sweater fibers being found in her pubic area, is extremely suggestive, n'est-ce pas?

Texan, I agree with you that the most damning fiber evidence was Patsy's entwined in the ligature. But why would she violently strangle her own daughter? Perhaps John's fiber evidence and the wiping down of the pubic area only is the answer.....Could Patsy have been in a jealous rage?????

 

Thank you for this information, DejaNu. I'm reading over it now. Much appreciated!

 

DejaNu,

I've always thought along the same lines as Steve Thomas, that Patsy was in a rage of some sort. Had it just been the head wound and the strangulation to finish this little girl off, there would have been no need to even wipe her pubic area at all; therefore I feel that Patsy Ramsey must have known beforehand that little JonBenét was being sexually abused, and this would now be known when they examined JonBenét's body, and they were up half the night planning and scheming to make it look like a pedophile's work. They failed!

Having said this, I'm troubled when I read that JonBenét was still alive when the paintbrush was inserted into her genital area, and shudder thinking it was one of her parents, but, I'm thinking here that both the Ramseys probably thought JonBenét was already dead.

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com...1107jonnn.shtml


Former FBI profiler Gregg McCrary, who has followed the case closely, was not surprised that fingerprints were not found on the flashlight. Rough or textured surfaces don't easily retain fingerprints.

The batteries are another story.

"That's a little more suspicious," McCrary said. "By their nature, batteries would be a better surface on which to leave fingerprints because they're typically shiny and smooth."

If the flashlight was used to strike a blow to JonBenet's head, and if the killer had taken the time to wipe down the batteries, McCrary thinks that would support his suspicion that the crime was committed by someone close to the family.

"An intruder would have spent very little time in the house," McCrary said. "They'd want to put as much time and distance between themselves and the crime scene as possible.

"Why not just take the flashlight with you, if you want to get rid of it? To wipe down batteries is just not consistent with an intruder."

....................................................................................................

I'm not changing my opinion. I am more convinced than ever that the Ramseys are guilty! Thank you again for this information DejaNu.

 

I agree Elle....

If JonBenet had only experienced the head wound, the Ramseys could easily have called an ambulance and had her taken in for emergency care for an "accident".....

In that case the head wound could have been explained away as a fall down the winding metal stair case, a fall off of the balcony outside of JonBenet's window, fall down the basement stairs etc.....

Since the Ramseys were a prominent family in the Boulder community, the "accident" probably would never even have been investigated.....

However when one adds in the evidence of sexual molestation that would have been discovered in the emergency room, (Emergency Room Dr.s do check over their young patients for signs of sexual abuse regularly when they come in for trauma treatment of any sort) then one realizes that the Ramseys could not take the risk of letting JonBenet be treated for the head trauma....

The evidence of sexual abuse was the deciding factor for instigating the cover up.....This now had to look like a crime perpetrated by an intruder, as it could not be portrayed as a simple accident when there was the added factor of vaginal trauma.....

The parents having participated in abusing JonBenet; John sexually, and Patsy crushing her skull with the maglite, probably thought JonBenet was dead or near death and in order to escape exposure and punishment for their deeds, decided on an elaborate coverup in which the garrot and the paintbrush were used in such horrifying ways that no one would ever believe that the parents were capable of this kind of crime....

I believe that the Ramseys fully intended to draw the investigators away from their home with the kidnap ransom note, and relocate JonBenet's body to some remote site for burial once the immediate pressure was off and they were at leisure to do so.....

In their distress over the accidental murder of JonBenet, they failed to realize that the police would be searching the entire home, and not just be drawn away to the surrounding city and mountains looking for the suposedly kidnapped child.....John, when he realized that the entire house was to be searched and JonBenet found, knew that he needed to be the one to find the body and corrupt the crime scene as much as possible......

All of the same scenario applies if it was Burke who was discovered molesting JonBenet, except that Burke was sent his bedroom after the initial blow to JonBenet's head, not knowing of the seriousness of the situation, and John was called in to assist in finishing the murder of JonBenet and in the cover up....

Either way, both John and Patsy participated in the murder.....

Voyager

 

If Patsy (or John) found John Andrew molesting and went to strike him but missed and hit JB, the samey same would apply, IMO.

 

This is exactly how I think it may have happened, Voyager. Had the Ramseys wanted the body discovered sooner, wouldn't they have chosen another room with easier access? Instead they chose a room hidden deep in the basement with a wooden latch locking the door from the outside.

Although, there is also talk that Ramsey had hidden the body and then transferred it there (?).

Officer French looked at the door, saw the lock and never opened this door. Officer Reichman tried to open this same door and stopped when he felt resistance. Fleet White did open it earlier in the morning, and he didn't see anything. Steve Thomas page 19 PB

Fleet White was looking into that room in the dark, of course.
According to Steve Thomas, a fluorescent lighting fixture lay sideways on a shelf, with two switches near the outward -opening white door. page 71 PB

Steve talks about John Ramsey. snapping his fingers and saying..."It was instant. I mean, as soon as I opened the door I saw the white blanket ...and I knew what was up." He then finds JonBenét ...italics are mine.

Steve talks about this door opening outwards, that Ramsey would have had to step back or aside before moving through. He didn't say he saw the blanket after he turned on the light but "instantly." Whereas Fleet had stood in the same doorway that morning and saw nothing in the windowless darkness.
Steve considered that Ramsey might have known something before he entered. Page 192-193 Steve Thomas PB

N.B. I ordered a used Hardback recently from Barnes & Noble. It was shipped and lost! These Paperback page numbers will be different, but at least the PB is the one that is updated.

 

Just to add my 2 cents, I have always thought that the Ramseys' strategy changed several times throughout the night and early morning, as they argued which one was best to employ. I suspect that the body was probably in the trunk of the car for later ditching, but with cops and friends running willy nilly throughout their home, fear of discovery would have motivated John to slip out the back, remove the body from the trunk and carry it downstairs when everyone had settled into a room with an obstructed view of the back stairs down to the basement. There is a possibility, not probability, that the body was stashed in a suitcase just in case someone caught him in the back hallway or found it in the trunk. A suitcase would also be convenient for dumping the body in a remote area in the hills near their home on the way to the airport too, just as we suspected OJ dumped his Bruno Malis and knife on the way to the airport. Afterall, they were planning an early trip to MI!

I also suspect that since that time period JR was absent from Arndt's knowledge and sight, he had time by then to chat with Haddon via cell phone from either the basement or garage out of hearing range about further plans or whatever.

These of course are just guesses on my part without substantiation. Nevertheless, I found both the Ramseys' performances upon discovery of the body totally absurd, even within unexpected emotional response patterns of parents in that situation. Peeking through splayed fingers, on again/off again hysterics, and throwing herself on JB's body, what a drama queen. And no tears to accompany all that. JR carrying the body upstairs stiff as a board and smelling already (have you ever smelled a dead body? It is unmistakeable!) and asking Arndt if she was dead, come on, even in hope or denial, that kind of traumatic reality has to sink in! Then when he mentions to Arndt that it's "an inside job", well, what the hell, is that a manipulative attempt or what?

 

DejaNu, This is something I discussed on another forum. I believe the police actually checked the cars in the garage. One poster suggested JonBenét may have been placed in a freezer which was down in the basement. It's actually marked on one of those house plans on the net. Maybe Redd Herring's on the ACandyRose site (?). I'll check that tomorrow. JB could have been in a suitcase before rigor mortis set in. There was talk of Ramsey being very agitated when he returned from the basement after his absence. This would be between 10:00am and 11:00am. Ramsey admitted this to the police that he had gone down there himself. I felt Patsy Ramsey probably balked at the thought of JonBenét being left out in the cold, and hence the reason for the ransom note being created(?).

Yes, this could have happened.

I could have written the above paragraph myself. I feel exactly the same way, DejaNu. Talk about drama. John Ramsey carrying JonBenét upstairs at arm's length because she was so stiff. I posted this somewhere else. This was absolutely ludicrous, He knew damn well she was dead, as you say from the smell alone.
Linda Arndt talked about the "smell of decay." Gawd! What a fiasco!

 

Elle, I don't remember any of the cops saying they checked the trunks of cars, so I'll just take your word for it. Putting the body in a freezer would definitely slow down the mortis process, but it would have to be in a suitcase or some other pretty insulated container stored in a freezer or else the body would freeze and there would be evidence on autopsy of frozen tissue, even if it did thaw. However, placing just the body in an unheated crawl space in or under the house considering the outdoor weather would protect it from freezing but still keep it cold enough to slow mortis. No tissue or organ evidence would be found in that case. I can imagine there were probably all sorts of places to temporarily hide a small body without actually freezing it in that house.

 

DejaNu,


I was wakened up by a new digital bedside clock which must have had the alarm already set. Came here to check in.

I remember reading in one of the books (?) where the Ramseys were asked for their car keys. Linda Arndt came to mind. I'll check the books tomorrow, but this warrant I already had on file. Maybe someone else will remember something about this too. Know how you feel. I like to know the source too. I would hope Arndt would have opened the trunks.

Ramsey warrant dated December 26, 1996


http://community.bouldernews.com/extra/ramsey/1997/09/29-2.html


Det. Arndt told Your Affiant that she briefly viewed the two (2) vehicles parked inside the attached garage. She described one of the vehicles as a Jaguar 4 door and the other vehicle as a utility type vehicle. Detective Arndt obtained a Cosin printout of the vehicles listing to John Ramsey. The Cosin printout indicated that John Ramsey is the driver of a 1995 Jaguar 4 door with Colorado passenger license #MAN8301. Cosin indicated that John Ramsey is the driver of a 1996 Jeep utility vehicle with Colorado passenger license #MAH5615.