Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD)

Here is a link to an ACR page that has two samples of Patsy's writing, but I find what she SAYS interesting, as well.

http://blabbieville.tripod.com/ramseysamples.htm

One is a letter to a voice coach, Miss Kit. I'd like to see what others think about what Patsy wrote about JonBenet's talent in this one.

The second is a Christmas card, apparently, to "Bob." The strange thing is that Patsy seems to have to tell Bob she has a child in pageants. What I find strange is that she's sent a Christmas card, as if she's familiar with the man, but then includes information about her pageant daughter and asks for...how inappropriate is this...pointers.

Who was Bob? And why is Patsy sending him a Christmas card? And why is she using that "consideration" to pump him for free tips?

Just wondering....

 

Amber,
Thank you...that's exactly what I was wondering.
Great thread btw! :gavel:

 

If she knows Bob then she doesn't need to tell him about Jonbenet, added to that she says 'Miss you' ....? Shows an intimacy...odd.

I'm not sure what you are after in the Kit note All I got was that Jonbenet was happy with her performance but PR was just OK with it. Inspite of her doing really well it was NOT good enough for PR.

 

I'm not really after anything. I noticed that Patsy praised JonBenet's performance to the coach, but then stated "she has a long way to go."

The CHILD was 5 years old at the time this letter was written, right?

I just wondered how this might fit in with your assessment with the NPD.

I thought it seemed Patsy was familiar with "Bob" as well, but then it seems Bob didn't know JonBenet was in pageants and had to be told. Maybe it was a card sent back when JonBenet just got started. I have no idea. Again, in relation to the things you've listed with NPD, I thought Patsy trolling for "pointers" seemed a bit much in a season greeting card. Maybe not. I was looking for something else after reading this thread, found these and hadn't really paid much attention to what they said before.

Maybe "Bob" is that Texas pageant guy.

 

I see where you are coming from now

Yes, If we have little clue as to who Bob is when nearly everything is known about the R's life...then it seems she is using a Christmas card (which should be a blessing/best wishes thing, not a 'how can I use this person) to manipulate him for her own gain. The additional 'miss you' and 'love' seem over the top if he doesn't even know about Jonbenet.

The Kit note. Again, Jonbenet is supposed to be an extension of PR and her fantasy...it doesn't matter what age JBR is or how well she does, unless she comes TOP at everything then it is a threat to PR's image of herself, so yes the letter bears this out.

 

Nice Post Amber!

Well, I have a little to add on a professional level as well as personal. A Narrascistic personality is JR and my X. Patsy is more of a person who becomes intermeshed with anyone they see as perfect for their needs. They usually have low self knowledge or worth. Examples:

John:
Always agrees with you, BUT only if you agree with him first.
Is always right, No matter what God thinks. It's even anyways at that level.
Makes anything go the final way he wants, Just don't get in his way.
Listens only to you when he can intrupt to says he did something better.
All this is only in the mind, it has no roots. It will steal your flowers!
See all he does as grandure, cannot make a mistake.
Is in a world of what he feels is perfection. Don't Deviate, you'll him off!!!
Relates to others IF it benefits him.

Patsy:
What's to continue is what she started, but perfect it. She is the original.
Think of it as grooming one's perfect idea's through another. Joined
Thinks JBR should embrase Patsy's experience, Any disreguard is to be punished.
Will almost shake someone to have them show the public Patsy's production.
Shuns the marriage and son, for the clone daughter she lives through.
JB pagents and trophys were cherished by Patsy. The end result.

My Opinion as always. But the shoe fits.!

 

I'd be interested in what you all can come up with in terms of psychosis and narcissism. What are the differences with Bi-polar, borderline condition, hystrionic psychosis.

 

Bi-polar or manic depression looks very different from narcissistic personality disorder. The person in mania does have grandiose ideas, but these ideas are only part of the symptoms they display. You can't miss someone who is bipolar. Patsy actually does look like someone with borderline personality. She seems much weaker to me than does John, although she can manipulate people and situations on a very basic level.

I have a workshop today and have to go, but glad this got some attention from the other thread. I could talk about these subjects for days on end (and no I do not have manic depression!).

I still believe John has sociopathic elements, definitely narcissistic personality.

Heymom

 

I'm no expert, I have only read around the subject because of the people around me. My best friend's partner NPD; my sister-in-law and my son's girlfriend - both bi-polar.

From Sam's site:

The manic phase of Bipolar I Disorder is often misdiagnosed as Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD).

Bipolar patients in the manic phase exhibit many of the signs and symptoms of pathological narcissism - hyperactivity, self-centeredness, lack of empathy, and control freakery. During this recurring chapter of the disease, the patient is euphoric, has grandiose fantasies, spins unrealistic schemes, and has frequent rage attacks (is irritable) if her or his wishes and plans are (inevitably) frustrated.

The manic phases of the bipolar disorder, however, are limited in time - NPD is not. Furthermore, the mania is followed by - usually protracted - depressive episodes. The narcissist is also frequently dysphoric. But whereas the bipolar sinks into deep self-deprecation, self-devaluation, unbounded pessimism, all-pervasive guilt and anhedonia - the narcissist, even when depressed, never forgoes his narcissism: his grandiosity, sense of entitlement, haughtiness, and lack of empathy.

I can vouch for this - even when 'depressed' he couldn't understand why people didn't see he was only trying to help because he was superior to everyone else and they were not listening because they were jealous of his superior knowledge/talent etc.

Narcissistic dysphorias are much shorter and reactive - they constitute a response to the Grandiosity Gap. In plain words, the narcissist is dejected when confronted with the abyss between his inflated self-image and grandiose fantasies - and the drab reality of his life: his failures, lack of accomplishments, disintegrating interpersonal relationships, and low status. Yet, one dose of Narcissistic Supply is enough to elevate the narcissists from the depth of misery to the heights of manic euphoria.

Not so with the bipolar. The source of her or his mood swings is assumed to be brain biochemistry - not the availability of Narcissistic Supply. Whereas the narcissist is in full control of his faculties, even when maximally agitated, the bipolar often feels that s/he has lost control of his/her brain ("flight of ideas"), his/her speech, his/her attention span (distractibility), and his/her motor functions.

The bipolar is prone to reckless behaviors and substance abuse only during the manic phase. The narcissist does drugs, drinks, gambles, shops on credit, indulges in unsafe sex or in other compulsive behaviors both when elated and when deflated.

Agreed, my sister-in-law was like this only during the manic phase and it was nothing compared to my friend's partner...he gambled in casinos with money he did not have ( he would beg money from others and lose that too (never paying it back)

He drank till he passed out often...but would swear the next day he DOES NOT DRINK AT ALL. Pathological lying is a huge part of NPD, even when they don't need to or you see them do something and they deny it even though they know you saw them do it - like a child!

He shopped using my friend's credit card buying things he did not need or want. Four years later she is still paying off the debt. She has been in court often having been summoned for strange debts he ran up in her name without her knowledge.

Despite saying he loved her he would flirt with and kiss other women when my friend was with him. He thought young girls actually benefited from sex with an older man. He often called her a whore and an angel in the same breath. He once hit a man in a DIY store because he thought he was cheating on his wife, even though he did NOT know the man! I could go on and on...

He thought he was immune from the police and the law - he would speed thinking the police would look the other way because he was who he was. He thought he was invisible to speed cameras...again I could go on and on.

Manic or deflated his mind set never changed. Whereas my sister-in-law - it was easy to tell when she was in one state or the other and her behaviour was very different in both.

As a rule, the bipolar manic phase interferes with his/her social and occupational functioning. Many narcissists, in contrast, reach the highest rungs of their community, church, firm, or voluntary organization. Most of the time, they function flawlessly - though the inevitable blowups and the grating extortion of Narcissistic Supply usually put an end to the narcissist's career and social liaisons.

yes, if you didn't know he was NPD you would think he was a passionate business man...animated, creative, enthusiastic, charming....only if you took the time to really listen to him would you find/hear the 'crazy' element coming in..the odd phrase that made you go 'what?'...Eventually someone would question one aspect of his idea/beliefs (especially beliefs) and he would either act as if you ceased to exist or blow up at you...or in his case he would take his rage out on my friend.

The manic phase of bipolar sometimes requires hospitalization and - more frequently than admitted - involves psychotic features. Narcissists are never hospitalized as the risk for self-harm is minute. Moreover, psychotic microepisodes in narcissism are decompensatory in nature and appear only under unendurable stress (e.g., in intensive therapy).

My sister in law was in hospital many times, my friend's partner never saw the inside of one

The bipolar's mania provokes discomfort in both strangers and in the patient's nearest and dearest. His/her constant cheer and compulsive insistence on interpersonal, sexual, and occupational, or professional interactions engenders unease and repulsion. Her/his lability of mood - rapid shifts between uncontrollable rage and unnatural good spirits - is downright intimidating. The narcissist's gregariousness, by comparison, is calculated, "cold", controlled, and goal-orientated (the extraction of Narcissistic Supply). His cycles of mood and affect are far less pronounced and less rapid.

Oh yes, but there were cycles and you could always tell when he was building up to the more violent period...yet to outsiders he appeared normal...my SIL...everyone knew, stranger or not that something was wrong at that moment in time

The bipolar's swollen self-esteem, overstated self-confidence, obvious grandiosity, and delusional fantasies are akin to the narcissist's and are the source of the diagnostic confusion. Both types of patients purport to give advice, carry out an assignment, accomplish a mission, or embark on an enterprise for which they are uniquely unqualified and lack the talents, skills, knowledge, or experience required.

As opposed to narcissists, bipolars regret their misdeeds following the manic phase and try to atone for their actions. They realize and accept that "something is wrong with them" and seek help. During the depressive phase they are ego-dystonic and their defenses are autoplastic (they blame themselves for their defeats, failures, and mishaps).

He never accepted blame for any of his actions and some of them were horrible - it was always other people's fault - NEVER his. He also never believed there was anything wrong with him.

Finally, pathological narcissism is already discernible in early adolescence. The full-fledged bipolar disorder - including a manic phase - rarely occurs before the age of 20. The narcissist is consistent in his pathology - not so the bipolar. The onset of the manic episode is fast and furious and results in a conspicuous metamorphosis of the patient.

 

I watched a documentary about manic depression a few weeks ago. It was presented by British actor and genius Stephen Fry who has the condition. I have a relation by marriage who has MD and it was interesting from that perspective.

Stephen Fry spoke to many people with the disorder over the series - including Carrie Fisher (who was all over the place). The most distressing case was a woman who suffers from delusions. It showed you her standing in a supermarket staring at a man who was selecting vegetables. She stood and stared at him, her face like thunder and when he eventually turned round and caught her glance she yelled "What are you staring at?". She also made abusive telephone calls and then blamed the other person for making abusive telephone calls to her.

That reminded me of some people I've encountered on the forusm - they do or say something - and then accuse others of doing/saying them!

 

Stephen Fry is a fascinating man, so intelligent. They say that people with MD or Bipolar disorder are incredibly creative. Wasn't Spike Milligan MD too?

 

Interesting discussion. All sociopaths are narcissists, but not all narcissists are sociopaths.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders IV of the American Psychiatric Association (the current bible of psychiatric labels), the clinical diagnosis of "antisocial personality disorder" should be considered when an individual possesses at least three of the following seven characteristics:

1. failure to conform to social norms
2. deceitfulness, manipulativeness
3. impulsivity, failure to plan ahead
4. irritability, aggressiveness
5. reckless disregard forthe safety of self or others
6. consisten irresponsibility
7. lack of remorse after having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person.

The presence in an individual of any three of these "symptoms" taken together, is enough to make many psychiatrists suspect the disorder. (The Sociopath Next Door, C. 2005,, Martha Stout, p. 6).

 

1. failure to conform to social norms
2. deceitfulness, manipulativeness
3. impulsivity, failure to plan ahead
4. irritability, aggressiveness
5. reckless disregard forthe safety of self or others
6. consistent irresponsibility
7. lack of remorse after having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person.



Let's see - failure to conform to social norms, deceitfulness, manipulativeness, impulsivity, irritability, aggressiveness, reckless disregard for the (welfare) of others, lack of remorse after having hurt...

Sounds like mame to me.

 

And jameson.

 

I possess all of those traits. No wonder I loved Patsy.

 

You should contact Michael Tracey and express that love in writing. It might be your ticket to stardom!

 

I wonder what effect a diagnosis of stage IV ovarian cancer would do to a narcissist. You get to be the center of attention, and get lots of admiration and support from doctors. But you have also just been told that you have a 99% chance of being dead in 5 years. Telling a 6 year old that she will be dead in 5 years - that's not something she could grasp.

 

Amber

Thank you very much for bringing this information to the forum. It is a significant contribution.

 

I can't speak to the effect of a diagnosis of stage IV ovarian cancer on a narcissist, but I can speak to the effect of a diagnosis of cancer on the wife of a narcissist. My former BIL was a narcissist to the extreme. I've spoken of this before on the forum. My sister was not a narcissist. When she was first diagnosed with a very nasty type cancer, he was in his glory being the hero, as long as it brought him attention. When her trials took the attention from him, he belittled her and insisted she still take care of him, the house, the kids, just like she always had. If he could have gotten away with it, he would have, but I turned into a psychobitch and fought him all the way. He had no care about her pain or her emotional torture - it was all about him, his meals, vacuuming his house, ironing his clothes. Do it yourself, I told him. I took over his responsibilities toward his wife, because he was too stressed out to be at her side - mustn't interfere with his life, after all.

Up to the last day I ever saw him, he still bragged about how much he did for his wife. The truth was, he caused her more stress than anything else in her life, including the cancer. On the last day of her life, he was hosting a party in his home. She called me and asked me to come over, because she didn't feel good. I broke up his little party, told them off, and threw most of them out of the house. She died during the night.

 

I don't know how you refrained from killing him. You are a better woman than I. :burnedup: