New Dr. Bea thread. Post your questions here.

Re: Schiller

During an interview with Steve Thomas,[p.191 ST]... John Ramsey's recall was infuriatingly imprecise. He couldn't remember being shown the note on the landing. He did say he grabbed it
and laid it on the floor to better read it "really fast without having to sit and read it."

Like Steve Thomas, this also disturbs me. He said this meant, Ramsey would have needed to be on the floor on his hands and knees to read it, and if he grabbed it. as he said, why weren't there
fingerprints on the note?

The following transcript is from Good Morning America between Vargas and Steve Thomas.

There is also a timeline that you can click on here, plus evidence.

http://abcnews.go.com/onair/GoodMorningAmerica/gma000411Jonbenet_trans2.html

Vargas: How did Patsy strike you that day?

Thomas: She’s, I think, a very complex person. I would at times ask questions, and the response would, I felt, be coming from sort of a doe-eyed little girl, in which I would say, for example, ‘Patsy, how can you explain to me that the ransom note came from your pad?’ And she would look at me and say, ‘It did?’ All of America knew it did. I would ask her about “SBTC†and “small foreign faction†mentioned in the ransom note. ‘What’s that, what’s a small foreign faction? What’s SBTC?’ That was maddening. I felt I couldn’t get a straight answer to a lot of pretty straightforward questions. ‘Did you touch the note, the ransom note?’ ‘I don’t recall.’ ‘Did you move the note?’ ‘I don’t remember.’ ‘Did John touch the note?’ ‘I don’t know.’ Again, I mean, was it the reaction of an involved parent or was it the reaction of somebody very traumatized by the case. This woman walked the runway of Atlantic City as a Miss America contestant. I think she’s also a very savvy sophisticate when she wants to be.

Vargas: (VO) Thomas describes patsy as magna cum laude smart and Miss America pretty, cancer survivor strong and drama queen talented. Hours went by and, according to detective Thomas, Patsy got to the point detectives dream of, the moment when a suspect’s “wall†breaks down.

Thomas: If you get somebody who’s open and head down and they begin to cry, that’s when you gently move in and sometimes touch and say, I think this was an accident, was it an accident? Whether or not she’s involved in this crime or not, we didn’t or weren’t able to exploit this opportunity because the DA’s representative and the defense attorney both said, let’s take a break, stop, let’s have lunch. And the other detective and myself we’re like, it was infuriating.

Vargas: (VO) While John Ramsey waited for his turn, Patsy and her attorneys took a break.

 

Purr

I have a timeline of the events of Dec 26 from books and such....all different versions of that day. Will go over it again tonight.

Very frustrating IMO.

We haven't discussed the plastic sack of clothes Patsy packed for the Charlevoix trip parked on the floor next to the spiral stairs????

Patsy never mentioned walking down the stairs carrying her clear plastic luggage...but there it is, in one of the crime scene photos...at the foot of the stairs!

 

plastic bag

In Death of Innocence [p.10] Patsy talks about putting some laundry into a plastic garbage bag, or (sack) as they call them in the South, and then going down the spiral stairs. This was because John Ramsey liked soft sided bags for easy stacking on the plane. Much easier than real luggage.

 

Love that part...

These people to whom image is everthing... these wealthy people with mulitple homes and planes, etc.... use Hefty Bags as luggage....

 

odds and ends

Here are a few disconnected comments in reply to some of the things posted the last few days....

When I say "overkill" I am not referring to the magnitude of the blow to the head. I mean that JBR was not only strangled (with a garotte, no less), but also bashed in the head (and sexually abused, to boot). She was alive when all three things occurred, which makes it rather hard to see those aspects of the crime as staging. The note looks like staging (if a parent did it), but not the assaults.

Sure, there's no law that says parents never would or never have engaged in multiple lethal assaults, but I strongly suspect that is very uncommon in a "losing it" situation - especially when one of the assaults requires some time to prepare (the garotte). A (often drunk) father might punch their crying child and them slam it into it's crib -- a local case here -- killing it. But that sort of multiple assault is essentially part of one action. It is even harder to fit to the "accident" scenario, the other popular PDI scenario. IMO, the multiple assaults fits much better in a premeditated sort of killing by a parent. However, then we have to find a motive that would cause a parent to want/need to kill. Tough unless there's some serious mental illness, IMO.

The head injury...
BobC - Have you ever looked at the picture of the skull fracture that jameson has had posted on her forum. Unless the fracture was magnified somehow during removal of the skull for that picture, that fracture is MUCH worst than I'd ever envisioned from the autopsy. Skull fractures can be very long, and serious, but still not involve a separation of the skull along the fracture line. JBR's skull was not only breached at the point of the comminuted area, but all along the linear fracture.

The nature of that fracture is awfully hard for me to fit to her being shoved into a wall or object. That fracture unquestionably involved A LOT of force, and that isn't very likely when being shoved. A fall from some height might do it, but then we'd see some evidence of significant bruising on other parts of the body, and we don't have that.

On Victory! SBTC being seen....
I don't see much surprising about PR not knowing the content of the ransom note, but still knowing it said Victory, SBTC. Those items are set apart and easily seen, unlike the rest of the content that appears in paragraphs of text.

On the Ramseys failure to search every room...
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, that given they had a ransom note saying JBR had been taken, I find it quite reasonable that no systematic search of the house was attempted before, or immediately after, calling 911. Why look inside if your child has been kidnapped? All your anecdotes are missing that critical feature - the note. Calling in the friends makes little sense, but doing no more than a cursory search makes some.

 

Fly--that was one of your best ever posts. Very good points. No I haven't even looked at Jameson's forum in years, so I did not see the photo of the fracture but I'll certainly take your word for it. Sounds gruesome...

If that fracture is as horrendous as you say, then what could have possibly caused it? I recall that the police did tests with styrofoam and that mag flashlight and thought the indentations were similar, but a skull is a hell of a lot harder so this blow must have been ferocious. Cyril Wecht DID say Burke could have had the strength to do it though. Hmmmmmm. Seems to me this was blow was from one hell of a swing.

This is a BAFFLING case.

Will we ever know what happened that night?

PS: when I use the term overkill, I am usually referring to the way the FBI uses it--a term referring to savage attacks that keep going long after the victim is dead. As in rage killings. I think calling this attack "overkill" is a stretch, sbut I can kinda see your rationale. I think overkill is a gray area.

 

FedoraX

Do you view JBR's injuries as "overkill" in the strict sense of the term?

 

staging

I really think that having more than one kind of assault on a child doesn't rule out staging by any means. IMO, it would seem more likely that one of the assaults was staging. Although still alive after the initial assault, she may have appeared dead to the parent. If the head blow came first it is entirely possible that the strangling was staging - after all - don't we hear the phrase " no parent would strangle their child with a garotte"? What better staging could there be then?

Also the sexual assault, she may have been unresponsive and though still alive, appear dead to a parent and so " what mother would sexually assault their daughter"? Even more staging to add to the confusion.

The multiple assaults don't fit with a kidnapping, or a thief that got caught and leaving the body in the house really doesn't fit a sadistic pedophile.

What does make sense about this whole mess? Nothing.

 

i know this is a gruesome request, but

can we have a file of her autopsy photos posted on this forum???

will someone do that please?

i think it really does help to try and picture every scenario and situation possible.

anyone volunterring?

i dont have the pics, do you?

 

some of my thoughts

of course they would not search the house if they DID IT.
they would know she was there.

and even if they were not quilty, i would react differently.

i would react this way as a parent.....
i would still be looking in every room to find any clues.
asking myself??? how did they get in here, where did they hide???
does everything look normal in this room? did they leave behind any clues? did they leave a bomb behind to kill us all? are their footprints anywhere? is there blood anywhere? did they hurt jonbenet? did she pee anywhere because she was scared???
is there anything missing in the house?

these are just a FEW of the things i would be asking myself.
i would NOT stop asking questions.

i fail to see them asking any questions. and the ones they maybe did ask....sound so illogical !

and i would keep asking burke questions....not send him away.
kids hear and pick up so many things. he might have heard the "intruder" (ha) and everything that happened. but they just sent him on his way.......geez, louise.

they look so guilty to me.

back to the note on the staircase...not only would patsy have to bend over.....but bend over sideways since it was a spiral staircase.

and there are no fingerprints from either of them on the note!!!!!??????

give me a break!!!!!

so dr bea? why would parents send their one and only son away and not keep them close to their side. they had police security where they were. burke did NOT have police security where they sent him.

i get so frustrated even thinking about all of this.
i think that is why we are all here.....it just doesnt make
sense that they have not been convicted.

all the clues are there!!!!

purrfectly frustrated,
purr

 

Hmmmm

Question: Where is Dr. Bea?

I suspect she has a very busy practice, and is finding it difficult to take the great amount of time reading through all of our posts to FIND our questions.

But hey, I ain't in charge of nuthin, just wonderin.

 

Just a hypotheses

All I can think of at the moment is the ransom note was nothing but an insult to the public's intelligence. What foreign faction would ask for a measly $118,000. What was this going to buy them "explosives" to blow up a small building? If a true foreign faction was really into play here, they could have kidnapped John Ramsey himself and demanded millions from Access Graphics.

When I was looking at samples of writing of the ransom note, I could see the likeness to many small case letters in Patsy's sample, but to my surprise I was looking at John Ramsey's writing. I had scrolled down too far; therefore I feel both of them took turns in writing the ransom note, because Patsy's sample was also very similar to the ransom note.

John Ramsey could have chosen the same figure as his bonus, $118,000 to throw the police on a false goose chase ...make them suspicious of a few employees in Access Graphics. I feel the Ramseys were up all night staging this killing.

Just a hypotheses, of course.

 

Well, I definitely agree with you, Elle, about the note being an insult to one's intelligence. No doubt about that. It sure wasn't real. And there was no real kidnapping gone bad.

Also, I agree with you that after seeing samples of Lizard Tongue's handwriting, I can see similarities there, too. Of course I see Patsy's too, but I just wonder if both were involved in writing it. It wouldn't surprise me. Especially after seeing samples provided by DocG.

 

yes, elle, i agree..............................

i have seen lots of similarities to john's handwriting before.

dun has posted it on here before.

it might even be on this forum somewhere.

yep, the ransom note to move proves
beyond a reasonable doubt that
NO intruder had anything to do with this.

but why did the ramsey's goof up and use that
amount of money?

i guess when you are up all night trying to cover
up a murder, your thinking could be askewed!!

hey, DocG not only thought that John wrote the
ransom note, but he also thought that John
did the whole "deed" without Patsy's knowledge.

by the way, where is DocG?

i am going to email him...i miss him!

purr

 

Check the Samples Here....

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=451


I am certified in handwriting analysis. I am not a professional, but I've been doing it since 1993.

Patsy wrote the note. I'd take that to the bank........

 

Have seen these before

Have seen a few samples of different handwriting analysists, Nandee, but Patsy could fairly change her writing as Steve Thomas maintained. she was a chameleon in every way. I have a friend who goes more by the content of her letters, and he is also sure it was Patsy who wrote them. I'm just stating an opinion that I was more than surprised to see John Ramsey's handwriting was also similar, and he could have taken part in it, to thwart the investigators. Who knows?

Strangely enough, on other sample copies of the Ransom note, the paper seems to be lined (?).


P.S. I know other posters like your "blinking eye." Can I be very honest and tell you it gives me the creeps. I have to scroll it down fast so I don't have to look at it. Sorry!