Physics Never Lie II

I agree that this argument gets us nowhere, EW. As I said, we've had it before, which you apparently do not remember. I understand that, as I can't remember quite a shocking lot these days myself. For example, in the following thread from March which I'm linking to, you did mention Van Tassel and the article I posted. White I still disagree with the great leap you made to his incompetence, I can see you did have the source. My apologies for my error.

To appease you, I'll do this your way, to a point, and then I am satisifed if we drop it, it as we are at the proverbial Mexican standoff.

Which brings us to the point in your last post which I am addressing, simply because you claim I am making it up. I may disagree with you, EW, I may even be wrong, but I do not make things up:

Well, perhaps you forgot this, EW:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6750&page=9&pp=12

And your response, EW, in part (you can review the entire debate at the FFJ url above):

I know I am clumsy in trying to discuss knots. They are not my forte, I have admitted many times. But that does not alter the facts of the wrist knot in question, of which we have a clear picture, and, therefore, even someone such as myself can duplicate it. My issue with your beliefs about the neck noose and the knot used is simply that you are relying solely on loose descriptions written by those who were also not expert in knots, as far as we know, such as Dr. Meyers, the M.E. who did the autopsy. Since we have an actual picture of a working loop around JonBenet's right wrist, I think that's pretty important to prove that the person who tied it was capable of creating a similar or the same knot at the neck loop, which in turn was capable of strangling the child to death--and did.

As far as I can determine, you concede the noose "may" have strangled JonBenet, so we really are not in disagreement in this. If I understand your many writings on the topic, you are of the belief that the person who tied the knots was incompetent, and therefore, Patsy Ramsey. I also believe Patsy Ramsey to be involved in this murder, but I do not view knots that worked for the purpose for which they were created as incompetent. Rudimentary, perhaps, not what you would have chosen, experienced as you are...but they worked all too well, IMHO.

We know the Ramseys all had been sailing for many years, especially John, who also served several years in the Navy. Burke sailed with his father, as well as fished with him, and was a Boy Scout. Patsy sailed with them, too. I have seen this exact knot tied all over a small sailboat, only a year ago. I think anyone in the house was capable of making these basic knots, and their simplicity does not negate their function, even if another knot might have been a better choice, in your opinion. They worked for the purpose they were tied: strangulation and staging, IMO.

In the url I provided to the illustration, I was simply trying to identify the knot in the autopsy picture of the right wrist, so we could all be on the same page. I was simply trying to provide a picture or diagram to explain what I cannot describe in words, as I am not a knot expert. Argue all you want it was a poor knot, would have been much more effective if tied around a stationary object, the fact is that the knot in question was tied upon itself, around the wrist of JonBenet, just as the double half hitch in the illustration was tied upon the cord around the leg. You may be exactly right that it was clumsy, not a choice of an experienced person like yourself, etc., and I do not disagree. How could I? All I have argued is the knot is simple to make and can be manipulated to tighten or loosen the loop around the wrists, as well as the neck, if that is what was used on the neck loop.

I don't think anyone can prove WHY the wrist knot was not made tighter on the wrists. It is obvious to all that the wrist bindings were not used to bind in any capacity, of course. Obviously they were nothing more than staging, and this is why the Ramseys have been suspects, however one chooses to say that, to this day: even Keenan won't clear them, will she? But as to why the wrist loops were not tightened more to creat a more convincing staging, we can speculate, but we have nothing more than guessing on this point: the double half hitch gets very tight when you pull on it, it's true, and holds fast--which is why it would work at the neck noose; however, the knot can be loosened with some working at it, so maybe the killer simply was in a hurry and didn't take the time to work it more. Maybe the killer was used to using it with thicker cords/rope, and this came as a surprise, so he/she left it because it was, after all, simply for effect, and much had to be done that night. That's a guess, that's all. So the argument that because the loops WEREN'T tightened, they COULDN'T be, is simply not logical, IMO.

This is just my opinion, a continuation of the discussion we had in March, which I did not imagine:

If my understanding of what you write is wrong, I apologize. And please, be my guest to waste no more time chasing anything I write. The effort of communication is a difficult one among the best at it, and I certainly have spent many hours on this one, leading to not much in the way of understanding, it seems.

One other point, and then I really do not want to continue to argue this with you EW, either, because it's pointless. I only addressed your unfounded, in my opinion, discrediting of Van Tassel because I do not believe there is any evidence at all that he is incompetent or corrupted, as you claim. One vague quote does not a villian make.

JMO, of course, but I think it's worth putting on the record here for people who have a different opinion, that's all.

 

I was very impressed with the highly professional FBI profilers from the Child Abduction and Serial Killer unit (CASKU), who confiirmed what committed detectives like Steve Thomas had concluded from the totality of the evidence: that this was a poorly staged crime scene which pointed to the parents.
Only one thing puzzled me a bit: (p. 217 in ST's book) they said that "the garrote was used from behind so the killer could avoid eye contact, typical of someone who cares for the victim."

EasyWriter or others: but isn't a garrote mostly used from behind? While I can understand the CASKU people's argument re the eye contact (although a JB nearing death would not have been able to make eye-contact anymore, but avoiding to look at her face may well have played a role), wouldn't a garrote used from behind be more effective in general because the pressure on the vulnerable throat would be greater?

 

You correctly answer your own question. Also, from behind carries the element of surprise; not a factor in the JonBenet case since there was no garrote involved; only a clumsily tied cord around the neck of an unconscious child.

Steve had it right when he said Patsy was good for it and it was a staged crime scene, but unfortunately, and I do mean sadly and unfortunately, neither he, nor the other defendants, nor their attorneys actually understood the evidence of the staging.

 

I found something about rope expert Van Tassell in Steve Thomas' book (p. 234).
In May 1997, Thomas had bought a soft nylon cord at McGuckin's sporting goods section for $2.29. He showed it to Van Tassell. Van Tassell frayed an end of the cord, and held it against the end of the neck ligature. The soft white braid and inner weaves appeared to be identical. "I think it is the same cord", he said.

On December 2, 1996, Patsy Ramsey had purchased an item at McGuckin's sporting goods section. The price was $2.29.. Therefore it is highly likely that this was the same type of nylon cord that Steve Thomas bought.

 

This really doesn’t make much sense. Is Steve saying that the
cord was taken from the evidence room to a sporting goods store,
or that some cord was bought and brought back to the evidence
room for comparison? What’s this about “frayed end of the cordâ€.
All nylon cord frays when you cut it. That why either knot or
burn.

“Held it against the end of the neck ligature?†What for? The
character of the cord itself is the identifier. Also, I have
bought and used hundreds of feet of nylon from one eight to one
half inch. Never have I seen anything in a hardware store, or a
sporting goods store except round cord. I looked on the internet
at several places and all the cord I saw, including McGuckin’s
was round and presented in diameter measurement. The cord at the
crime scene was not round. I have been unable to find it online.
As I said before, I suspect it is a speciality item sold by a
store dealing in sewing and tailoring supplies.

BTW, does anyone know if Tom Bennett has an email address
separate from the email address of the DA’s office. If so, I
would appreciate knowing what it is, or where I can find it.
TIA.

 

I have always thought Steve Thomas should have had a stronger "backup" Delmar, when facing the Ramseys on the LKL show. Steve didn't have the expertise of facing the camera and bright lights, that the Ramseys had. I think he was intimidated by them. If he had had stronger legal support, he may well have conquered them. I'll never understand why the legal support wasn't there for him (?).

 

[Source Steve Thomas' book, p. 233/234]

Thomas had found what seemed to be identical cord, packaged as "nylon" in both the Boulder Army Store and McGuckin's Hardware, and collected more than fifty samples.

ST: "Everyone agreed that it seemed to be a visual match for the neck ligature".

If the cord bought by Thomas had been round instead of flat, he could not have made such a statement because no doubt the difference between the two types of cord (the neck ligature and what ST had bought) would have been noticed by everyone looking at them. And no doubt Van Tassell would have noticed the difference too.
Thomas' description of the cord: "a fifty-foot length of white Stansport 32-strand, 3/16-inch woven cord"
In mid-Novermber 1997, he showed one of the many identical samples he had bought to Van Tassell, who frayed an end and held it against the neck ligature. [Correction on my prior post. ST did not say if it was a sample from McGuckin's or the Army store, but they both seem to have sold the same type of cord].

I suppose Van Tassell frayed one end of ST's sample to see if the frayed ends of the two cords would look alike too. He then directed Thomas' attention to the cord itself, pointing out to him that the soft white braid and inner weave of the two cords appeared identical.

On page 290 in his book, Steve Thomas says that by January 1998, when the cord tests were returned, "the samples I had purchased from the army store were consistent with the murder ligature."

So obviously the cord had been tested, and that type of cord was sold at the army store. It would interest me very much who tested it. Van Tassell?
If it is true that he had only been around for one week, it couldn't have been him.
Thomas was desperate because, as opposed to McGuckin's, he had never searched the Army store records for purchases the Ramseys might have made there. For detective Trujillo had stubbornly insisted for a long time that the murder ligature was polypropylene and not nylon, which turned out to be wrong. Now that so much time had elapsed, the records were not available anymore.

 

Years ago, I found a catalogue online which sold the same Stansport nylon cord. I haven't looked since then, though, so maybe they don't even make it anymore. I did find similar cord in the sewing section last year at Walmart's, but it was not the same. I only bought it as a close sample to use for experiments, like tying the knot in the wrist ligature picture. But it's been almost 10 years, so they may not even make the same Stansport cord anymore, for all I know.

Rashomon, I imagine either the Colorado Bureau of Investigation did the testing on the cord, as they did much of the evidence testing in this case. If not them, then I'd guess the FBI did, as they have different divisions that collect various items often analyzed in criminal investigation, like guns, bullets, carpet fibers, paint...things that are really common but which can crack a case. Considering that many people are strangled with ropes and cords, I imagine the FBI would have an extensive sampling, but more importantly, would certainly have the lab equipment to physically test the cord bought in Boulder by the BPD against the cord on JB's neck, if the CBI didn't.

That's my guess, off the top of my head.

Oh, found an old article from '98 on this, and it says the CBI tested the cord:

http://www.thedailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1998/03/09-1.html

 

There has been some discussion about the kind of cord which was used for the ligature.
Thomas' description of the cord: "a fifty-foot length of white Stansport 32-strand, 3/16-inch woven cord". The brand name of the cord was 'Coghlan's Cord', the brand name of the duct tape was 'Suretape'. (Journey Beyond Reason, p. 175).

 

EasyWriter: it seems that several people over on other message boards have now indeed read your analysis of the ligatures and the garrote, because meanwhile virtually everyone seems to agree that these ligatures did not serve their purpose and that the garrote contraption was bogus. Together with that, all the previous scenarios about JonBenet allegedly having being 'hogtied' to shock the parents, or 'erotically asphyxiated' have vanished too. Quite interesting and a good sign imo, because it brings people nearer to the truth.
The same goes for the alleged 'stun gun' - probably also just another piece of Lou's 'bullsmit' (poster Little coined that word, lol). Hardly anyone on the boards seems to believe in Smit's stun gun myth anymore. I recently read stun gun experts' Stratbucker and Tuttle's opinion, and they too totally disagreed with Smit's opinion. Air Taser representative Tuttle said he had never seen these types of marks when you touch somebody with a stun gun. And courtroom expert Dr. Stratbucker said (like you) that it is "pure nonsense" that a stun gun would leave a blue mark in between the marks on the skin. (Journey Beyond Reason, p. 163/164).
Just imagine how stubborn Lou Smit must be if he disregards what experts have to say about his 'bullsmit'. This man has been wearing "the Ramseys are innocent blinders" from day one and refuses to take them off, otherwise such an obstinate behavior can't be explained.

EW, do you have any theory as to what could have caused the (alleged stun gun) marks on JB's body? Someone on another forum suggested they might have been knuckle or fingertip imprints which could have gotten there as JB was being violently grabbed by an angry parent.
And what do you think could have caused the big red spot on the front of JB's neck?

 

Gee, and it didn’t take them but nine years to figure out that
one loose ligature over one sleeve does not add up to “tightly
bound.†If any of the RST are included in this enlightenment,
naturally, the “intruder†had some sinister reason for doing a
non binding which he will reveal when caught. There is no fact
from which the RST does not have an escapism ready and waiting.

Now, how long do you suppose it will take then to learn
elementary physics and come to realize that circumferential
embedding can come about only by circumferential pressure which
cannot happen from an external pull on a handle even if the loop
around the neck would slip and change size, which it wouldn’t.
Maybe in time, they will also learn what a garrote is and know
there was none at the crime scene.

“EW, do you have any theory as to what could have caused the
(alleged stun gun) marks on JB's body?†(Ibid)

A theory, yes. Proof, no. The size (circular) and uniform spacing
of the marks imply contact for a duration of at least several
seconds with a corresponding object like snaps, or buttons. I
suspect this happened after she was unconscious and was being
cleaned up. The body being turned explains two locations for
these marks. (I cannot envision any way the marks could have been
made on an upright body.)

“Someone on another forum suggested they might have been knuckle
or fingertip imprints which could have gotten there as JB was
being violently grabbed by an angry parent.†(Ibid)

They don’t correspond to a knuckle or fingerprint. However, other
abrasions might well have been caused by a violent confrontation.

“And what do you think could have caused the big red spot on the
front of JB's neck?†(Ibid)

See immediately above. Also, aggressive fumbling while tying the
cord around JonBenet’s neck could also account for the red spot
as well as other neck abrasions.

 

Interesting. A visit to the Coughlan's web site shows they sell many different sorts of cord, and while the image below is maybe not the same exact cord, my first though upon seeing it was, "Why, look at that. Prongs. Two of them. I wonder how far apart they are?"

 

Okay, if there's a circumferential thingie with one stick in it, then the stick can be twisted around and around the rope until it tightens sort of uniformly, and the flesh under the twisting motion part can get caught up and pinched in the twist, hence a "hickey" of sorts. This is not a garroting action, and is slow and cumbersome. The kid would have had to be not fighting for someone to stand there and twist and twist. Otherwise they'd (the cord twisting person would) look like a cat got a hold of them.

 

finger marks

I didn't think the so-called stun gun marks were made by knuckles but I do think the marks on her shoulder (delto-pectoral groove) correspond in size and shape to fingers. These marks are more like a bruise than the other marks which are described as abrasions.

 

Coroner Dr. Meyer's observations (PMPT, paperb, p. 41) about the ligature around JB's neck (emphasis mine):

"Wrapped around the neck with a double knot in the midline of the the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that being tied around the wrist."

There were also two tails of cord trailing from the knot. One was 4 inches long and frayed. The other was 17 inches long and had multiple loops secured around a wooden stick that was about 4 1/2 inches long. (PMPT, p. 41)

So if there were two tails of cord trailing from the knot, the perp could have tied a simple shoe lace-type knot ('double knot') around JB's neck, using the two ends of the cord, keeping one tail deliberately shorter because he wanted to loop the remaining longer tail around the paintbrush stick.

But if it was a shoe lace-type knot, killing the victim by using the garrote contraption would have been physically impossible because this type of knot does not slip at all - it is fixed.