Prior Sexual Abuse ... Key To Case?

Wombat,
Very obsrevant and I couldn't agree more. :thumbsup:
On the morning of Dec. 26, did Patsy EVER ask LE to find her little girl???

 

But would they do this elaborate cover-up if they had any idea that JonBenet's abuse could be explained by saying she was getting cleaned internally? I doubt it. I think the level of cover-up points to the kind of secret that had to be kept. No, I don't think John raped his daughter. I think other types of molestation were going on. It would probably not have come to the surface for many years, if the "accident" hadn't happened.

Just my opinion. Edited to add: nothing - changed my mind.

 

Richard Krugman believed the injuries were the result of child abuse (on the order of what you are talking about), not sexual abuse per se. He no longer has it on a website, but did have a website that featured Jonbenet as a victim of child abuse.

There is also a possibility that the vaginal injuries were the result of whatever was done to Jonbenet before that night, but that the sexual nature was part of the staging. Not as a way to cover up the injuries, but as an explanation for her 'abduction'. One thing I thought about was what had been in the news recently, in the past few months before JB's death that might have influenced the staging.
Well, one of the things was the trial of Polly Klaas' killer and the killer's claim of molestation at his sentencing just 3 months before JB's death. Even though Polly had disappeared in 1993, the trial of her killer, the sentencing and the decision about whether or not he would get the death penalty hd been in the news all summer. At the sentencing on Sept 26, 1996, the killer claimed that he had not molested Polly because the girl had told him that her father molested her.
The Ramseys may not have remembered that, but had just thought of 'elements' to throw into the staging. Who steals young girls away from their homes? Even before the JBR case, if you had asked parents, the answer would have been clear: pedophiles
So, staging a death as a pedophile having done it would have made 'sense' to John and Patsy whether or not they thought they had a reason to cover anything up.

 

I'd be interested in your opinions as to why you think the stager of the scene wiped JB's genital area. Wouldn't it have been more convincing if part of the blood hadn't been wiped off, if the purpose of the staging was to create a gory, cruel-looking scenario?

The person who wiped JB seems to have been John Ramsey, for fibers from his shirt were found in the crotch area of JB's 12 underwear.

 

It jumped out at me...

Thanks, Spade, for posting the transcript.

This is the part that I found most interesting:

PATSY RAMSEY: Because we were
4 gone several hours, and they could have had
5 their way with the house. Have known where
6 flashlights were, where pads of paper were,
7 where bibles were, where Christmas cards were,
8 where -- you know. If we are gone three or four
9 hours. No one knows for sure.

What do Bibles and Christmas cards have to do with anything? Why does Patsy list these items along with the relevant items, flashlight and pads of paper? Well, maybe, subconsciously. the Bible and a specific Christmas card had something to do with the ransom note. That particular quote just jumped out at me.
It's interesting to read what my friendly sleuths here, at FFJ, found that resonated with them.
:leaf:

 

You are SO RIGHT!!! What did the Bible have to do with the crime??? Excellent spotting. Wow. So that means the SBTC reference might well have come from that Bible passage...

Edit: And she cuts herself off again...

"Have known where
6 flashlights were, where pads of paper were,
7 where bibles were, where Christmas cards were,
8 where -- you know."

What, Patsy? Where the duct tape and cording was? Where the paintbrush and the Bloomies were? Where JonBenet's white blanket and favorite nightgown were?

Heymom

 

Yeah, how would you react if you found out?

He means he can't prove it was for sexual gratification. He's sure she was abused, but physically.

No, because neither one is in an unequal position of influence.

 

Usually it IS considered abuse because the sibling or family friend is older and will threaten the victim with violence if he or she tells. That is an unequal position of influence. Merely looking up to the abuser, if an older sibling, is enough to be an unequal position of influence.

 

It is abuse, but it's not abuse that has a law allowing a MINOR to be arrested and convicted for it.

The responsibility would fall on the parents, I believe. Not a CRIMINAL responsibility, but a moral one involving NEGLECT and LACK OF ADEQUATE SUPERVISION.

IOW, I doubt that the Ramseys would have been ARRESTED if Burke had been found to be molesting his little sister. But social services would have been called...well, mayby not in BOULDER, and maybe not for a RICH family, who could simply promise to get counseling for the children....

By the way, mentioning counseling reminds me that I recently read that JonBenet was IN COUNSELING already, wasn't she? Didn't I read that in the LE interviews? Or am I misremembering?

If I'm not in la la land, I either missed that or just forgot about it through the years. I made me think about the three phone calls Patsy made to Dr. Beuf on Dec. 17 before the murder. Patsy claimed she "didn't remember" making the calls. Did she even remember she had two children before Dec. 26th? I wonder sometimes....

 

Yes, I understand. The Punisher seemed to be saying that two children would not be in unequal power relationships, and I was just saying that it is always unequal when one person decides to molest another, no matter what their ages.

If we could get our hands on the doctor's records, I'd bet we'd have a nice big smoking gun. There would still be no arrest, however, because you couldn't prove who killed her anyway.

There really is never going to be justice for JonBenet, is there... :banghead:

 

No. That was taken care of before the 911 call, IMO.

 

If memory serves me correctly, (and that gets sketchier by the day), I remember reading or hearing that when Patsy was diagnosed and undergoing cancer treatments, they put JonBenet in counseling for the cancer issue.

Of course, there could always have been more, but that's what I remember hearing.

 

The only thing I remember about this is in Steve's book, where he says they tried to interview JonBenet's shrink, and got slapped down. Kind of like, "if I ever saw her, I wouldn't tell you anything."

My memory's failing due to the tear gas and crack, though (see other thread).

 

Thanks, y'all. I was thinking that maybe I read in the LE interviews where Patsy was being asked about it, but I don't think I can stand to wade through the Ramsey lies right now...so...I'll see if I can find it later...if it exists elsewhere.

But...why would you put a 3/4 year old child in therapy because her mother has cancer? I mean...is that weird to anyone but me?

 

One of the group of individuals made the calls, no doubt. Another one was guilty of the abuse. Patsy couldn't remember what she did when the alters were in charge.

 

That's what's so frustrating about this case heymom, but it's also why we have to continue fighting for the truth to be told. Maybe someday......

 

You got me chuckling here, Paradox.

That's because either you're right, and the reason Patsy can't remember much of anything any mother would know without even thinking about it, like when her child bathed, ate, what she taught her about washing hands and what clothes she wore, is because Patsy had serious mental problems like MPD, or you're simply responding to how Patsy portrayed herself to get out of telling the truth and being caught for being involved in the murder of her child.

Was Patsy trying to create an INSANITY defense? Or was she REALLY insane? :laffbig:

 

That seems weird to me, too, but it sort of makes sense if you think of it the way Patsy did - that in a sense, JonBenet was going through this experience with her mommy, as her little alter ego, when in fact, Mommy Dearest should have been preventing her from knowing the details. Loving parents try to protect their children from information they can't possibly understand or process. You could say, "Mommy is a little sick but the doctors are making me better," so as not to worry the child and scar her for life. For example, I never had a sense that my mother was as ill as she was. It was not presented as something we would need counseling for, anyway.

But the Boulder culture is geared toward mental illness so perhaps it would be normal. Heck, they'd probably put a baby in counseling if they could.

Heymom

 

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.txt

In this interview with Patsy, Trip DeMuth implies that he has information that a housekeeper-nanny of the Ramseys caught one of the boys in the Ramseys' neighborhood naked under a porch with Burke. (Could this be what prompted Frank Coffman at one time to claim that Burke was gay?) Patsy downplays the significance of the incident. I'd have no problem with that, were it not for the signs of prior sexual abuse found at JonBenet's autopsy.

Interview excerpt:

Burke's friends were at the Rs' house often to play with Burke. JonBenet joined in sometimes. I wonder if any of the play was sexual in nature and caused the signs of prior sexual abuse found at autopsy.

Or...the Globe reported that houseguests of the Rs had witnessed Burke and JonBenet playing doctor, and although we can't provide a source, (it could have been Darnay) another poster and I recall reading that LHP had caught them too.

 

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