Put the garrote in Patsy's hands

FROM DELMAR ENGLAND

Hi, all,

I ceased posting to lists and forums for personal reasons some time ago. Usually, I do not respond to posts except in a few private conversations. In view of the current circumstance of my "garrote" analysis being discussed, often with numerous misconceptions, in an unprecedented action, I have asked Elle, to post a brief reply in hopes of clearing up a few matters.

Mjenn May 22, 2002, 12:16 am Wed May 22 0:16:59 EST 2002

But see, there's always something new. Toltec and elle, I've NEVER seen anyone discuss JonBenet's neck swelling from her head injury, embedding the garrote. Please explain that one to me, if you have time, or point me to it. Is that England's?

No, it is not. The embedding of the cord came from after death swelling which happens regardless of the cause of death. It is a primary stage of decomposition. Although Dr. Meyer neglected to mention this, I'm quite sure he was aware of it. This neglect is unfortunate since it has led to many false conclusion about the embedding and to parallel false conclusions about the crime.

How do I know about after death swelling? I have personally witnessed it dozens, if not hundreds of times. The witness was not of humans, but an assortment of animals. Classic example. Lost cow is found dead the following day. A tying chain around the cow's neck which was previously loose enough to easily put a hand behind is when found now embedded in the flesh to a depth of at least two inches. (No, I didn't call the sheriff and report that someone had strangled my cow.)

Garrote? Generally a strangling device via decreasing the size of the loop. Almost anything can fit this. However, effective execution device is a different matter. Iron collar with size decreased by screw, bolt, or nut movement is one. (Old method of public executions; thought to be Spanish in origin.) A proper length of piano wire with handles is another. (Cross hands, put loop over the head and cross pull.) A twist variety can be constructed, but is has many flaws. The apparatus on JonBenet's neck? Mels' comparison of a tent to a house adequately describes.

Hair in the knots?

First, why make a noose on the person? Why not make the noose, then put it on the person? Isn't the who point of a noose to make a loop larger than the object of intended use, apply and decrease the size of the loop? Next the question as to why the hair entangled in the noose knot? Even if someone made the noose on the person, why not make it away from the head and hair THEN slip it down and tighten? Didn't happen. If this had been done, there would have been hair clamped by the noose, but not within the knot itself.

What does this tell? The tying attempt was not with noose and noose action in mind. The tying attempt was to tie it as close and as tightly as space allowed. This doesn't make for much tightness in this situation. Yet, obviously the mind of the person doing the tying, i.e, John Ramsey, wasn't even thinking of noose action as shown by making it on the person and close to the head and neck. Other than not knowing anything about the device and items, his mind was in complete shambles. He didn't even notice the obvious, to make the noose, then slip down to tighten.

Although photos are sometimes deceiving, the photo shows the main lead of the garrote from the back and toward the left side of the neck. If the handle had been pulled, the knot would have moved toward center. Add this to all the other stuff, the close tying with hair entanglement, etc, and the conclusion comes out that there was NO NOOSE ACTION AT ALL. There was no strangulation from the so-called garrote which so many imagine to be the murder weapon applied with great force. In other words, this thinking is EXACTLY BACKWARDS from what the facts reveal. If the coroner correctly detected asphyxiation, it came by some means other than what the photos show.

The whole garrote scene is an ad hoc concoction of panic-driven amateurish bungling. Its for show (staging) and nothing else.

Feel free to comment and\or question and\or bring in any "experts" you like. I will be happy to respond to all questions and\or provide physical demonstration of everything I have claimed about the garrote scene.

delmar@ct.net

P. S. Yes, I could join the forum. However, I don't have the time to follow closely and respond to all relevant posts. Aside from this, I find that one on one exchanges are more conducive to communicative understanding.

 

swelling after death

Delmar,

I knew I had forgotten something when I was posting my reply to MJenn this morning. Thank you for sending this post. Yes, the swelling after death. How on earth could I have forgotten about that.

I'm sure the other posters interested in this topic will appreciate your reply.

Elle

 

Thanks for posting this Elle. As you know, I am in contact with Delmar as well and think he knows exactly what he's talking about. Delmar, if you're reading this, I still think your garroate (as John would say) analysis is right on target. But, Delmar, I am still not completely convinced that Patsy did this. I still think a male Ram was involved and Pats was involved with the coverup. I can't get past my female instincts here. But, on the other hand, I am open-minded enough to keep that possibility in mind. If anyone can convince me, its you, Delmar!

Thor

 

FLY

All I will say is: you have an uncanny ability, I guess we could call it talent, to get in the middle of a perfectly SANE thread and NOT read it, then argue the already stated point/s down to the inflection used on a word, then turn around and say that is what you have been trying to say for months on end.

I sometimes wonder if people don't bait you to respond because you are so predictable.

My ointment is fine, thanks.

'nuff said.

Mels

 

LOL Mels

I'm kinda' on the edge of pulling my hair out myself. I can't blame it on Fly, however. I'm going to blame it on the real culprit...the killer.

Thanks for your carefully thought out response, Mr. England.

But I may have missed something here. The sticking point with me in the swollen body causing the garrote to embed, rather than the garrote being the killing tool, is THE PETECHIAL HEMORRHAGES ABOVE AND BELOW THE GARROTE. Running along the garrote, according to Meyer.

How does a dead body get petechial hemorrhages from a garrote tightened by swelling after death?

When John found JonBenet, she wasn't swollen yet, was she? Yet the garrote was already embedded in her neck, so much so that observers couldn't fully see it.

I thought gases from decomposition are what causes swelling. I recently read that it takes a couple of days for that to start happening in a human, without proper handling or embalming. Temp has something to do with the rate of decomposition, also. And Meyers doesn't mention any swelling, as you noted.

Well, I probably just don't know what I'm talking about. It's hard to discuss the autopsy for me, since it's Latin.

 

Oh, elle....

Please don't make me post my thoughts about family and friends covering for a killer, re: JAR. If I post all the research I did on this, on the ACTUAL REALITY that one can fly from Atlanta to Boulder and back with time to kill in 9 hours--and don't believe me, anyway, since the BPD knew this and therefore didn't exclude JAR immediately with those "alibis," if I post on this again, I'll be attacked and it won't be pretty. It's happened so often now that I have been effectively censored on this. All I will say is JAR is on my list of suspects.

And if you don't think people would lie about alibis or support the killer of a child, even if it's with silence, then I refer you to the Skakel/Moxley case. There are people all over Greenwich who could be witnesses for that murder, but who refuse to "get involved." The courage to do the right thing is far more precious among humans than we'd like to believe. Look at the KKK killers who are just now getting tried and convicted of murdering 4 little girls many decades ago. How many people do you think hid their little secrets all this time?

Fly, I don't see any indication that the hair that was still attached to JB's head was not also in the handle knot, but the autopsy indicates it was definitely in the knot at the nape of her neck. Good question, though.

And I repeat: what was the past experience that made the killer put that garrote on JonBenet's neck? What put that thought in the killer's head? It didn't appear out of thin air. That is the key. That is the trail that must be followed. And if it was some past sexual proclivities, since those who practice such things are NOT LIKELY to come forward in a nationally scrutinized case and talk about their S&M practices, if someone does know that connection to the killer, I'm not surprised we haven't heard it in connection with a vicious child murder.

Just some thoughts. But I will say this: I do believe the BPD knows exactly how JonBenet died, in what sequence, and the fact that they keep John and Patsy under the umbrella says a lot to me.

 

Oh, MJenn!

It has been a LONG time since I heard any thing on JAR being able to be in Boulder the night of the killing.

Remember the way the Ramseys were 'forgiving' the murderer? That was one of my prime reasons for thinking it was a family member that actually killed JB.

I'd love to hear your reasons or intuitions about JAR being included under the 'umbrella'.

And I would like an answer to how the Pet. Hem.s got there if the 'garrote' was staged. Perhaps from the previous device used? I had quite forgotten what a roller coaster of "what if's" and "this means that..." were involved in this case.

Its been woderful digging in and seemingly taking a fresh look at the information.

Yep, also agree that MANY are willing to cover, especially if they are involved on some level....BUT the more involved the looser the lips, or so I hope.

Mr. England,

Thanks so much for your writings and also your posting through elle. You certainly have added a new view point from which to look over this case.

Thor,

I agree, there is a 'male' feel to the murder itself. And for the longest time I could see how vulnerable Pats was in this whole thing...it seems like she was set up in many ways.

I guess it goes back to being difficult seeing her killing or even hitting JB that hard, especially in view of this being her little darling/"America's Princess"

edited to add: Don't I remmeber reading from John Douglas, maybe others, that women generally smother their children rather than strike them when killing them? Also, that they are particularly careful to comfort their children in death by providing warm covering and favorite items?

Mels

 

Yes, Thor, we three ...

Yes, Thor, you, Delmar and I have discussed this case by e-mail many times, and we have covered a lot of theories. I'm glad Delmar replied to the posters here. He really does make it very clear that the staged garrote was not the cause of JonBenét's death, and the real cause of the cord being embedded, was the swelling after death. I overlooked this myself this morning.
Maybe we've been studying this case too long. Dr. Myers should have been more thorough in explaining this in his autopsy.

I know you have stuck fast with your theory, Thor, for as long as I've known you. Over a year now! I'm the one who switched from thinking the Ramseys were innocent to the Ramseys being guilty.
Partly with researching other books and transcripts, with the biggest influence being Delmar's garrote analysis, and the study of the content of the ransom note. I also have managed to move a step away from thinking parents couldn't have carried out such a repulsive act on their dead daughter to add to the staging ... to believing that "Yes" they could have carried this out.


Thanks again, Delmar.

 

mels

mels - Glad your oil is fine. Better check your head gasket, however, because you're blowing smoke.

 

Plane flight records usually well guarded

MJenn said:

Oh, elle.... Please don't make me post my thoughts about family and friends covering for a killer, re: JAR. If I post all the research I did on this, on the ACTUAL REALITY that one can fly from Atlanta to Boulder and back with time to kill in 9 hours--and don't believe me, anyway, since the BPD knew this and therefore didn't exclude JAR immediately with those "alibis," if I post on this again, I'll be attacked and it won't be pretty. It's happened so often now that I have been effectively censored on this. All I will say is JAR is on my list of suspects.

You mean you don't accept the following records? The police had finished their background checks on John Andrew and Melinda, and had verified commercial airline schedules and private plane flight plans and found no record that either of them had travelled the night of December 25. Their alibis were solid.

I know Steve Thomas had a terrible time in Atlanta trying to break through the tough circle of protective Ramsey friends trying to find information about Patsy and John, but I can't see where there could possibly be interference here with flight records. I think these records are usually well guarded. Sure I believe their friends would cover for the Ramseys. Their Boulder Neighbour friends are all tight lipped, bar Judith Phillips who's the only one to have the guts to stand up to them.

 

Uh, elle...

Have you never heard that illegal drugs fly into this country every day on unchartered planes?

Yeah, I'm telling you I do not accept the "records" you mentioned.

No, I don't think that someone flew JAR or he flew himself that night and then wrote it all down for "records." And then reported it to the police, the same police that none of the Ramseys' friends and acquaintances would freely speak with since JonBenet's murder. Much less the "private flight" community, which is close knit, exclusive and depends on MONEY to make money to maintain that exclusive lifestyle. The Ramsey's ties to that community go back at least three generations, pretty high up, too, as John Ramsey's father was an exec in the aviation industry after his service in the navy as a pilot, I believe.

I'm not asking you to believe anything. Make up your own mind. That's why I did the research. Down to mapping out the roads that would have to have been traveled in Georgia and Colorado to and from airports and homes. Down to getting info from airport mechanics and pilots. Down to tracking down who had a pilot's license in the Ramsey circle.

But like I said, don't believe me. Read it in PMPT. Schiller makes it clear the BPD knew it was a possibility. If you believe there is no way the police could have dismissed a viable suspect by mistake, then let me refer you to some cases where suspects have had alibis stand for years...only to be broken later. Try the Skakel/Moxley murder, for beginners.

And I say this while maintaining the utmost respect for Thomas, who is the one who effectively signed off on "clearing" JAR. I'm just saying, all elements of this crime can easily fit JAR, more easily than any other family member. If not for but ONE alibi witness, then many people would suspect him to this day. Does this mean I think he's the killer, period? Not necessarily. Just that he's not off my list.

First, there is no law saying you have to file a flight plan. Second, there are scores of airports all over Georgia and Colorado. Third, I asked you not to make me do this. Gotta' run now, 'cause the censors will be all over me any minute.... =:O

 

I wrote it earlier, ready to post, then deleted it...but you are brave and still have your head, so, I will go on.

I went to school in Georgetown, Texas where our wonderful JR resides.

It was a bit exclusive in that there were plenty of kids who's parents had the money to send them there along with their checking accounts and credit cards and new cars, etc.

I met plenty of kids who had pilot licenses, carte blanche to the airplane, and took trips back and forth to Mexico or where ever they could get quickly, do what they wanted and come right back.

I agree with you that JAR had Opportunity.

I saw and witnessed first hand those kids who got in because their dads made contributions. Money talks as we have already discovered in this case. And arrogance, unchecked, continues to grow generation after generation.

In my reading or PMPT, I picked up on the distinct impression that JAR was VERY arrogant...stopping at NO thing, unless he so chose to do so.

That he could/would make his way into and out of Boulder on that night wouldn't be at all unrealistic, in my book.

As we have reviewed much of the evidence and books lately, I have been seeing more and more the apparent rage associated with this crime...almost an arrogance.

According to Schiller, JAR said he wanted to kill JB. My book has been loaned out, but i will track it down and see if I can locate the page.

edited to add:

People are VERY willing to keep their mouths shut when they believe violence or death might strike their own family.

I don't think your reasoning is at all out of line.

Mels

 

Mels

Mels - Well, mystery solved. I couldn't figure out what the heck you meant by saying your "oil" was fine. Now I see you've edited your earlier post to make "oil" "ointment," and I understand. LOL

 

Short concensus

I maintain that the killer/s were SNEAKY, a near perfect murder. To think they would appear on "flight records" as flying to and fro to commit this act is beyond stupid.

 

Difficult to believe

MJenn said:

Have you never heard that illegal drugs fly into this country every day on unchartered planes?

Yeah, I'm telling you I do not accept the "records" you mentioned.

It's difficult for me to believe John Andrew Ramsey would go to all the trouble to fly back and forth to commit this crime. Why would he need to go to all this trouble, when he was going to be with the family in Charlevoix? If he was hell bent on murdering JonBenét, I'm sure he could have thought up an easier way to do it while in Charlevoix. This flying business doesn't make any sense to me.

I did read the rumours about him supposedly saying he was going to have JonBenét killed in a boating accident ...but it's all hearsay.

 

Well, duh, Elle!

Why do you think he'd go to all that trouble?

Murdering a child MIGHT be something a killer would not want to be convicted of.

So what's the best way to avoid that conviction IF you want to get away with a murder?

Alibi. Period.

Why did people QUIT looking at JAR? Including me. Long ago, when he was "cleared" by the BPD with his ALIBI? Because, as has been proven through the years, most of us DON'T know how the world of private flight works, do we? So when told he was in Georgia WITH all those alibis, we dropped him pronto.

But it turns out...he only has TWO alibi witnesses during those crucial hours. One was Chris Stanley, a good friend in Atlanta that night but who has been traced to Boulder, also. He is only said to have gone to the movie with the other two that night, however, and is quite a silent alibi witness, little known about him. The crucial one, the one that has been written about more and claims to have been at said movie with JAR and to have spent the night with him at JAR's house that night--the ONLY person to have been with him ALL those crucial hours--is Brad Millard, another old school buddy who also admitted to sleeping IN JONBENET'S BED IN BOULDER HIMSELF. Brad just volunteered that little tidbit to Thomas during an interview. Where is Brad, anyhow? Gone with the wind....

So I'm just saying...look at the whole picture. Check it out yourself. Because all I'm saying is what the BPD knew all along, which Schiller says clearly in PMPT: that it was POSSIBLE for JAR to make that trip and commit the murder in the time frame of 9 pm ET to 6 am ET. Brad Millard is the main reason that JAR was "cleared." I don't know Brad Millard. I do know plenty of people have lied about alibis before. That's a fact. And look at the age range of these young men. Think about the overkill, the rage directed at JonBenet. Think about motive. Access. Read John Douglas' profile. Like I said, he's on my list.

And thanks, Mels. Some people just don't understand the privileges of the truly wealthy and that lifestyle. They really do live in a different world where boundaries of ALL KINDS are pushed far beyond what the middle class experiences.

 

I have asked this

question before on WS, but seem to be ignored like an ugly stepchild.

Okey dokey, so Chris Stanley was in Atlanta the alibi night, where was he sleeping, where was he staying, how many days was he there, when did he leave, where did he live?

Same story for Brad Millard, what was he doing in Atlanta on alibi night, where did he sleep any other nights he was in Atlanta, how many days was he in Atlanta, why was he in Atlanta, his folks lived in Boulder and he lived a short distance from Jeffco Airport if my memory serves me. Plus MJenn found a pilots license for a Brad Millard. Heck could be more than one Brad Millard, huh, er. MJenn refresh my memory on that one.

So such good friends these boys appeared to be, and to spend Christmas away from their families, I find a tad odd, unless they came from broken homes as well. Something in common, maybe that they came from unhappy homes and bonded to each other. What was their common bond for being such wonderful and close knit friends, that they would spend Christmas together? Color me dumb, but inquisitive.

Other day I plugged my recently deceased brothers name into google, it is a rather uncommon sounding name, and imagine my surprise when I found a boatload of people with the same name, hmmm. Life is strange isn't it?

Since none of us know the correct answer to this puzzle, who can cast stones on MJenn or myself for thinking? Thinking is still a legal activity.

 

Good Questions, Camper!

Frankly, I am not sure these guys were all that family oriented. Other than Affluence and like mindedness, maybe partying, I have no idea what their essential common bond would be.

I would think by C'mas night their obligations to their families would be over in the sense of requiring their presence. And they could get back to their own intrests.

The only Brad Millard I could locate is listed as a Ground Instructor: Advanced Instrument...shows to be living in MD.

Could be the wrong Millard because many small aircraft pilots don't renew their licenses. The ability is there, but not the opportunity. It isn't entirely off the mark to assume the phantom pilot who MAY have transported them to Boulder was even licensed. I mentioned this in another post. That there are many kids of affluent backgrounds who have available to them many things including airplanes and they don't always as permission, much of the time these trips are sporadic, spur of the moment because they happen to have the time and the aircraft available at that moment.

And I don't think it was investigated like it should have been. Its hard to know exctly where the influence of money stopped short the whole investigation, where high politics stopped it, or where police politics, or friends who owed other friends big favors.

All these seeming interferences, I believe, is what gave way to the 'group child porn' theories a good while back.

Mels

 

Sorry, Camper, I didn't see your question on Stanley at WS, but if I did, I might have just sat on my hands as I get attacked there frequently when I post on anything, much less this topic.

I don't think anyone has ever said what Stanley was doing in Atlanta, at least in none of the sources available to me. Where he lived or where he went, I have no idea.

But Brad Millard's parents lived in Atlanta. That's where the young men left a car they went back to pick up after the movie, they said. I think Brad was in school at CU, wasn't he? I know he was no stranger to the Ramsey household in Boulder, as he said himself.

I don't think it's unusual for young men to form strong alliances outside their families that are more appealing to them than family events. Hanging out together all the time is fairly common to that age group in college. You know, the strength of the wolf is in the pack?

But I think the answer to where Brad was that night is in JAR's alibi. At Brad's house playing video games, at the movie, and at JAR's house.

When Camper found out Brad Millard's middle name...remember that, Camper, from the school annuals....Bradley Donald Millard...the Millard I thought might have been him who had a pilot's license had a different middle name. But that one was also in Kentucky. You seem to have found a different one, Mels.

But you're right. The online databases I have access to don't list ALL PILOTS, nor do they list all pilots who EVER had a license. One has merely to take a medical exam to renew a pilot's license. John Ramsey renewed his that way. And would someone who is going to fly a long distance to kill a child would be worried about not having a license?

I might also add that a poster recently said that JAR learned to fly as a teen. Why wouldn't he? All the Ramseys have been around airports all their lives. A young boy...or girl for that matter...who has exposure to it could easily get interested in learning. And his father could easily teach him. Burke sure was interested in planes.

And while I'm thinking about it...John Ramsey owned two planes, and his company Access Graphics had one, didn't it? Remember their hangar?

How many planes do you think LockHeed Martin owns? I have done some research about this...and they have FLIGHT CLUBS for employees.... Complete with use of planes and airstrips. And they have a huge, complex factory and air strip...in Marietta, Georgia. Not far from where Lucinda lives. The only problem I don't have the answer to is how hard would it be to have access to their facilities on Christmas night. Maybe not hard for a well-known employee's son who knows the ropes. But it is a huge defense contractor and I'm sure has tight security, so that's one nut I can't crack without help.

But there are many small airports within a few miles of Lucinda's address, and I think I clocked driving time at something like 15 minutes, tops, to get there. As I posted while I was doing this over a year ago, small airports often are not manned at night.

Anyhow...like I said, I am ONLY HYPOTHESIZING here. Someone killed JonBenet. The Ramseys say it wasn't them or Burke. All evidence points to someone close to JonBenet. JAR lived in the room a few feet from her, the killer is tracked to that room by Smit with a bag of rope no one will claim, the semen in the suitcase in the basement, the child's book, the dark fibers on her body possibly from JAR's semen-stained blanket in that suitcase in that basement where her body was found and the weapon was made, the age/profile of the killer by Douglas, the ransom note written by someone who knows the family but doesn't want to disrespect John, JAR's strange interview with Thomas where he mentions the movie "Ransom," playing in Boulder the month before the murder, other things he said in that interview, he had a key, his school friends said he talked about JonBenet ALL THE TIME, about how beautiful she was, and he disappeared shortly after the murder and the answer to his friend's concerns by Aunt Pam was BACK OFF.... And if some think John would cover for Patsy or Burke, why wouldn't he cover for JAR? I mean, any parent who has watched their child suffer during divorce has some guilt feelings.

Should I go on?

Look, I'm just saying I still see him as a suspect for many, many reasons, mostly because he fits in so many, many ways. Maybe it's too farfetched. Maybe he wouldn't hurt a flea. But someone killed JonBenet, and that family is covering up for that person or persons. The crime looks like a male did it. I'd say my first choice is John and Patsy together. But I can't say for sure it was them. Who can? So that leaves JAR and Burke in the picture. If they don't like it, then maybe they should start telling the truth to the BPD and quit playing their PR games. Because I'm not the only person who isn't buying it.

All I'm saying is that however she was killed and whoever was involved, it's a quite farfetched case no matter who put the garrote on her neck. There is no simple explanation or the trial and conviction would have been long over.

 

Re: Short concensus

Camper, I agree, to appear on 'flight records" WOULD be stupid...that is why they would fly, as it were, freely. It is done, unfortunately everyday, at more remote airstrips. Given the C'mas Holidays, they were most likely unmanned.

Mels