Sundance Kid

all I'm saying is I've heard what lou Smit has to say, and he leaves huge things out of his crime scene analysis--you know, like the whole ransom note. You can't argue pedophile while forgetting the ransom note.

 

Ironic

Forgot to add, isn't it ironic that any tiny shred of apprehension I had that the Ram's were guilty, completly vanished when I visited Sundance's site for the first time.

It was on Sundance's link that I actually was convinced 100% that Patsy Ramsey did indeed write the ransom note.

Can she not see that on her own site or is she playing the devil's advocate?

The proof is in the puddin'. Mother Ram wrote the Mother of all Ransom notes, after all! Unfreaking believable - it made my year, possibly gave me back some of the 6 years I wasted on the Ramsey saga.

Regards,
Mandarin

 

BobC

it's a month for a guy and 18 years for a women.

and I'm gonna believe FedEx cause I feel she's right and I want her to be and Lou will be made a fool and the Rams will be sorry.

 

well year after year has gone by...

 

looks like I'm not going to get my debate.

 

I'm not surprised.

 

First of all, your lack of respect for 'people like' me is not very high on my list of concerns, but in the name of good manners, I will address this.

Secondly, I don't much care for your glib 'anything?' remark about what my original opinion was based on. I know this case inside out, and have for years. I've deleted more things from my hard drive than you can imagine, and every bit of it was researched and worked and examined; I traveled to Boulder in 1997 to research further. In fact, the very first photos of the Ramsey house exteriors that were posted on the Internet were taken by and posted by me, so my knowledge of the case and what I based my opinion on may be an issue with you, but I don't think it is among the long-timers in this case.

Now, to answer your question about 'people like' me, I based my original assumption of guilt on the same thing that you bank your opinion today in: what the media told us at the time.

And the media told us what the BPD leaked to them in their orchestrated and now documented campaign to use the media to put pressure on the Ramseys in hopes of breaking them.

That's all anyone had 6 years ago when I began following and documenting this case, and we used what we were given, or rather spoonfed, through the media.

Combine that with a totally hinky case to begin with, and it didn't take much to convince me and hundreds and hundreds of others of the absolute Ramsey guilt.

It looked bad, it looked really bad:

1. Longest ransom note in history
2. Note written on PR's notepad and with her pen
3. World-class note and the body is found in the house
3. JR is the one who 'finds' the body, and..
4. Contaminates the crime scene by moving JBR to the hallway
6. Patsy is allowed to throw herself on the body which...
7. Also contaminates the crime scene, while the detective...
8. Forms a prayer circle and prays with the guests and Rev
(But I digress, sorry.)
9. Autopsy shows sexual assault

and that's just for starters.

I thought it was probably the older son until they said he was in GA, then moved my Vestigator Headlight over to the younger son. That was the most logical reason I could think of that would cause BOTH parents to keep quiet and not talk to police, to cover for him.

I felt that way a long time, and I considered scores of scenarios of how, where and why; I read and researched and debated and discussed the case in the Internet forums of the time, most all which are now gone.

After several years of such intense attention to this case, I drifted away from it and soon stopped following it at all. After all, there was the whole Martha Moxley case and we had a Kennedy to hang you understand. :::winks broadly:::

The first inkling I had of unease about my stance on that side of the fence was when I began to read the transcripts of the police interviews, and then watched the videos, and caught myself believing things they said.

I watched the 48 Hours broadcast and that piqued my interest to look at the information Lou Smit had gathered. Shortly thereafter I started researching Smit himself - until then I was too blinded by the media spin to give him more than a Packaged Ramsey Paid Lackey description. What I found was all good, his peers respected him, he had a good reputation for detail and accuracy in crime details; the only bad things I could find about him came from the BPD and us Internet posters.

That in itself gave me pause, but coupled with my fresh perspective on the case (a direct result of my absence from the Internet environment pertaining to the murder) made me look carefully at everything again.

So you see BobC, your insinuation that I had 'suddenly' changed my mind (which caused you to question my reasons for my opinion, if "any") is not only ill-mannered, but uninformed and incorrect.

This is not a decision I arrived at suddenly and without thought, this is a decision I made carefully and over a period of about 4 months. I had already read PMPT, as well as several of the other minor books pertaining to JBR's murder before I took my LOA from the case, and so I got the ST book, and then DOI, and then the Police Files book.

The decision I arrived at is that I do think there is evidence that an intruder was in the house that night. I think the suitcase wa s placed under the window by an outsider - whether it was to facilitate his exit or to assist in taking JBR with him or not I do not know - but I think it was placed there by him.

I saw the window well photos and I think the area was disturbed.

I have seen the horrible autopsy photos with my own eyes, and I believe that a stun gun was used on her back and on her face;
the marks on JBR and the test marks on the anestheized pig are the same. (There is argument on a forum that they are not a match, that there's a descrepancy in the measurements, but it's such a small difference that I have determined it to be insignificant.)

There is not only DNA under JBR's fingernails and in her panties, but another sample, recovered from a source not JBR, that doesn't match anyone in the family.

And, significantly, I learned that in Sept of 1997 an intruder came into a house where the family was home, came in before they went to bed and set the alarm, hid for hours (under a bed they think) and waited for the family to go to sleep. Once they did, he went to the young daughter's room and awakened her by placing his hand over her mouth and telling her not to make a sound - he knew her name and if she made a sound he was going to "knock her out". He then began sexually molesting her.

Fortunately her mother woke, found the intruder and sprayed him with mace. He then ran out of the daughter's room down the hall, into the mother's room, out the window and down the roof to escape, never to be found.

This all took place less than 2 miles from 755 15th Street.

That was probably the most thought-provoking part of my transition.

I still have trouble with parts of the whole scenario

- I have trouble with the note, because to my untrained eyes, it looks a lot like PR's handwriting to me.

-I have a LOT of trouble with the "no hope and hence no hope" deal with the Ramsey 97 Christmas message.

-I have trouble with the length of time the attorneys held out for the interviews, but that is directly attributable to the attorneys, so I try to give that a grain of salt.

I have several troubling items, but to me, the most troubling issue was that I had judged these people and there were indications that they were not the guilty ones.

And hence <BEG> I put the website back up first as convenience for me, cause everything was gone from online it seemed, and it evolved as time has gone by these last few months.

But it's late now, and even though I know this is an incomplete missive, I'm tired so I'll conclude this post by saying goodnight to all.

Take care,
Sundance

 

Ahhh the old hit and run. To be honest I've never heard of you until today Sundance and would appreciate you being civil. I don't know you from Adam so my statements about what people like you and my friend based their turn arounds on was not meant as a slam. Now can we start out like grown-ups?

 

Re: Poof!!

I didn't 'disappear" Manadrin, I was at work. I work for a living.

I wasn't aware that there was a time limit on this forum. I got an email that said you people were calling for my head, so I came over to let you know I'd be back later. You got a problem with that?

And maybe you're paranoid Mandarin. Or maybe they really are out to get you.

Sorry you feel that way, and sorry that you're wrong.

I am Sundance. I have always been Sundance, and I am not a mole. You can ask ACandyrose, she will voich for me.

But you don't have to worry yourself about me, just scroll on by.

 

Okay I've read your whole post now and have to admit I'm extremely disappointed. Nothing new here at all so why a sudden change after all these years?

Yes Lou Smit was respected. I 've never heard a word to the contrary. His work has always been good up until this case and I know a lot of people think something's gone way wrong here. Including two of the people who hired him and one person who used to work with him. You sound exactly like Lin wood when you blame the cops for all the bad press about Lou Smit. I've heard his theories and if anyone's made Lou Smit look bad it's Lou Smit.

So you think a stun gun was used? So what? Are you aware John Ramsey had a stun gun instructional video in his possession? If the evil BPD were out to get the Ramseys they''d have jumped all over that saying "Look a stun gun manual!" But they didn't. Why? Because nobody but Lou Smit believed it. Contrary to Lou's whining --the cops could have moved in for the kill on the stun gun vid--but they didn't. Ask yourself why.

 

Re: Ironic

I am putting all the info I have on that site for others to be able to find and use - I am not creating a Ramseys Are Not Guilty website. The note is a huge part of the whole case, of course I have it there, along with the handwriting.

I sense you have a problem with me and I don't know why. I also know that I am not coming here to be insulted by you. I owe you nothing, I don't have to adhere to your time schedule for when I answer posts, and I certainly don't have to explain anything to you about what I place on my website. You have a problem with that, don't go there.

 

How much do you know about DNA science, Sundance?

 

Like a little ketchup with those words BobC?

GeezLouise, if I had known you people sat around timing me I would have taken off work early to get here and answer your posts.

 

By the way, I've spoken to some case friends about you and have heard nothing but good things about you. So let's try not to be so hostile, okay?

 

TIMING YOU? I WAITED FOR EIGHT HOURS!! Granted I'm unemployed and bored but good god!

 

You'd be hostile too BobC if within the hours of a working day you'd been summoned, ridiculed, challenged and called a mole all before you could even GET to the forum.

And you had several smartass posts cause you thought I wasn't coming, remember? So I can say the same to you, act like a grown up and I will do likewise. You started this teaparty, not me.

It seems to me that you people don't want debate or discussion, you want to slam the "new kid" - that's why you were so impatient for me to arrive to answer my summons - but I was here before a lot of you got here and I'll be here after you're gone.

I don't care if you like me or hate me, I don't care if you think I'm funny or you think I'm stupid; I don't care if you agree with my views - we're all different and all have the right to a different opinion - I don't care if you believe what I post or not, either way it makes no difference to me.

I do care about discussion regarding this case, and if that can be carried out here that's great. If not, I'll go my way. Makes no difference to me one way or the other.

I can say this though, this whole session has left a very sour taste in my mouth for this forum. I do not feel welcome here, so maybe it's best I just move on.

Take care,
Sundance

 

HAHAHAHAHHAHAAA OK, OK, you're right. Sorry.

You made me laugh out loud, and now the cat thinks I've lost my mind

 

Damn Sundance RELAX. If I offeneded you sorry. JESUS. If saying I'm not surprised is so offensive it was just frustration that you said you'd be back in a bit and eight hrs later you were still gone. I had one poster on another forum who constantly would pop up in the middle of the night, spew a bunch of crap and then disappear so this seemed like more of that. I apologize for saying that if it wasn't the case.

Now to be the World's Biggest Hypocrite--I have to go now. Can we schedule a time tomorrow to do this. I am not here to attack you and hope nobody else does either.

 

And one last word--don't let that creep push you around.

 

</b>

I can't really answer that with any certainty BobC - I think it was seeing the photos for myself, but ..... As I said, it was an evolving feeling that came over me. I think partly the photos, partly the increasing knowledge of the police's actions.

I didn't WANT to feel this way, after all, I had spent about 4 years telling everyone how guilty the Ramseys were, I sure didn't want to have to eat THAT dish of crow. But I know how I feel, and it's changed from 1996-97. :::shrugs:::

But my main contention is that now I feel there IS reason to not be 100% sure they did it, and if that's so, then I have judged the Ramseys wrongly and that is a no-no.

I do not believe 100% that they are NOT involved, but I no longer feel absolutely sure that they ARE, and so......

(I'm trying to catch up with the posts, I really am. Is there another funny one up ahead that will make me laugh again?)

It's late, very late for me, and I need :sleep: