Tape? What tape?

Wouldn't the OJ Simpson golf bag be fresh in their minds? Simpson's widely supposed to have taken the murder knife to Chicago inside one. (In any event, Simpson seems to have been obsessed with picking the bag up personally at LAX on its return to LA.) Maybe the Simpson case wasn't that big in Colorado, but I think Patsy followed it. As I recall, PMPT says she ran outside to talk to the gardener about the verdict.

How hard would it be to give a golf bag a once-over? It's not like they have secret compartments.

Thomas says that Det. Mike Everett accompanied Pam on her expedition.

 

I don't know why it never occurred to me before to see how easily a piece of duct tape could be peeled off just by opening your mouth. It's absolutely trivial and immediate. When you open your mouth your jaw moves down and away and the bottom of the tape separates from it. You're left with a duct tape moustache, but you're free to scream. I'm sure a child could do it. I probably won't do that experiment. Not now anyway since it's the middle of the night.

The tape used in the Ramsey case has a lot of calcium filler in the adhesive so it probably has a bonding strength similar to my cheapo duct tape.

You'd have to wrap the tape all the way around the head to make an effective gag. I don't think John Douglas covered that in Mind Hunter so it's not surprising Patsy got that detail wrong.

 

At noon on December 28, as Steve Thomas sits in the Police Headquarters in Boulder being briefed on the JonBenét Ramsey case Patsy Ramsey's sister Pam was removing clothing and much more with a police escort.

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<o>Thank you, Little! </o>

 

Little,

"The detectives already know who did it!" THAT phrase was actually used that day by a police intern. Unfluckingbelieveable to say the least. I've not seen or heard that quote before....ever. Now I have to ask this because I've forgotten so much...How closely was CAP questioned after this "scorched earth" raid on the murder house? Was she ever asked to tell what all she took. Then I have to ask what happened to all the stuff she took out of the house. Where did the Ramseys put it all and was it seen by others where they were staying. We aren't talking about a suitcase or two here. We are talking lots and lots of volume, boxes and bags and just stuff...plus the golf bag of course. Wouldn't the hosts where they were staying see it all and wonder too? This very point has been a sticking point for me for years... and years. Crime scene stuff looted and spirited away under the very eyes and noses of the cops. OOooooohhhhh! my goodness.

 

Well, for the record, I didn't see that Aunt Pam removed a golf bag in that list of things taken from the house.

Whether or not she removed the roll of tape I have no idea except that I think it's unlikely because Patsy wouldn't leave its discovery to chance. There wouldn't be any guarantee that Pam would get to it before the cops.

I also have some doubts that Aunt Pam would be jonesing for a Happy Meal after removing an item she knew had been used in her niece's murder. I may be giving her too much credit.

 

JR specifically asked for the golf bag.
As far as the OJ case, I don't think the Boulder police were thinking about that case at all with respect to the Ramsey case. This murder of a little girl in Boulder was rare and I think they were all rattled by it. In the OJ case, there was little doubt in anyone's mind (even the jury, IMO) that he was the killer. With JB, I think at that point there was such growing contention between the DA and the police that they were getting frustrated. As we saw in ST's statements, the cops took a VERY laid back approach to Patsy's sister and the removal of items from an active crime scene. IF anything were absolutely necessary to be removed, the police (probably with prosecutors & lawyers present) should have been the ones to do it, with photographic and written records of what was removed.

 

According to Thomas, Ramsey was overheard by one of the Fernies asking someone not recognized, gender unspecified, if he (or she) had gotten his golf bag. In his depo,Thomas said he didn't know exactly how long after the murder this happened. To me it seems at least possible that Ramsey was talking to one of his investigators.

I agree that Pam shouldn't have been allowed in. My point is just that it's unlikely she removed the roll of tape, inadvertently or otherwise, because Patsy couldn't afford to leave that in the house.

 

I think about the tape roll a bit, and every house has some sort of tape. So that is what makes it even more suspicious that no tape was found in the house. It's like the flashlight batteries being wiped down. Doesn't make sense for an intruder to do that. Wipe the flashlight? Sure. Any perp, intruder or family member, would have done that. But the batteries? No need for an intruder to do that. They wouldn't have changed the batteries nor have searched the house for batteries with the family home. The Rs prints would be expected to be on them, so their absence is one of the things that shine a floodlight on the parents as suspects, IMO.
Apparently, there was a similar tape on the back of some of Patsy's paintings. Yes, the Rs could have easily taken the cord, tape, and some other evidence out of the house that evening. They were NOT required to turn over the clothing they were wearing, either the day the body was found or what they wore to the White's. (It took a YEAR for some clothing to be sent to LE, and even then it wasn't certain it was the clothing in question). Te Rs also were not searched as they left the house. They were all wearing winter coats. Patsy allegedly was wearing furry boots (that she later claimed she "lost"). Remember the animal hairs found in JB's palms?
Those animal hairs were thought to be beaver. Some paintbrushes are made from beaver hairs, and at least one of Patsy;s friends thought she may have owned boots that may have been beaver fur.

 

Little doen't have the time right now to respond Zoomama.

I cannot change the text size. It's not showing up! I don't have the patience when things like this don't work for me! However, everyone sets their own preferences, so I'll just leave it! I am having trouble with my pc today.

 

From Thomas' 2001 depo:
12 Q. Page 48, the first full paragraph.
13 "John was overheard to ask someone quietly,
14 'Did you get my golf bag?'" Did I read that
15 correctly?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Who overheard him ask that
18 question?

19 A. I believe that was either John or
20 Barbara Fernie.

21 Q. Who did they overhear him ask that
22 question to? Who was the someone?

23 A. They could not identify that
24 party.

25 Q. And when did that statement, was
304
1 it allegedly made?

2 A. The did you get my golf bag
3 statement?

4 Q. Yeah.

5 A. I think in the days following the
6 murder.

7 Q. Do you know how many days after
8 the murder?

9 A. No.

While this implies that Ramsey at one point asked for his golf bag, it doesn't say when he asked or who he asked or if he ever got it. If Pam took it out of the house it would probably have been clubless because the police collected the clubs on Dec. 27. I'm not a golfer, but aren't golf bags kind of big? It seems like Pam carrying out a golf bag suspected to have housed the murder weapon might make the cops say 'WTF??"

But I'm not trying to get in an argument about it. I don't care if she took the golf bag or not.

 

Here's the golf bag. It is located in the area right outside the wineceller door. When this photo was taken, JB's body lay still undiscovered on the other side of that door.
Note the Christmas greenery hanging on the wall. Remember that fake Christmas tree-type needles were found in JB's hair and it was thought that meant she was carried down the spiral stairs (which had fake garland wound around). This was not necessarily the case, as you can see it was likely that fake needles were on the basement floor and in the area because that is where the decorations were kept. As a matter of fact, housekeeper LHP said that the wineceller had been used to store all the artificial Christmas trees. So it is entirely possible that the needles got in her hair because she was on the floor of the wineceller, and the area just outside it.
Here's the link:

http://www.acandyrose.com/072basement.jpg

 

BTW, this was the usual messy state of the basement. It always looked like that- not because it had been searched or gone through by LE.

 

That's right about the Christmas trees being stored in this basement room DeeDee. Linda Hoffman Pugh and her family were the ones who removed the Christmas trees from it and placed them upstairs in quite a few rooms.

 

There had two golf bags. I'm wondering if the other one is in the left side of the picture. Whatever it is, it looks like it's covered and the cover may say "Ramsey."

 

I'm interested in the possibility of Patsy taking the roll of tape out of the house because I'm wondering what might have happened to it after that. 60 yards (possibly) of tape is a hardish thing to get rid of when you're under scrutiny. Poor Gary Condit couldn't even throw away a watch in a MacDonald's bag without getting busted.

It occurs to me that this roll of tape may still be kicking around somewhere. It's not impossible.

 

I do see what looks like possibly another golf bag right under that Christmas decoration on the wall. Not sure which golf bag was his.
As far as the roll of tape- I doubt it's still around. It likely was removed from the house by either a R, Patsy's sister, or one of the friends that were there that morning. Some think some of those friends were there BEFORE the Rs claimed to call them- like in the middle of the night, then going home to wait for the call, then returning to the Rs house "on cue". The Rs have moved a few times since leaving Boulder. The moved to Atlanta first. Then, to Charlevoix for JR's failed Senate run. Don't know if he still has his home there, I think he does.
Anyone know where Patsy was living when she died?

 

Patsy died at her fathers home in Atlanta. I don't know if they were living in Atlanta themselves at the time though. It's seems her fathers home is where she was taken for hospice care.

 

I was thinking more of someone who might unwittingly have it. If Patsy took the roll of tape out in her purse (along with a few other things), she wouldn't be able to keep it in there. She would need a place immune to search and seizure. She'd have to stash it someplace or give it to someone in private.

I don't think she was really on speaking terms with her husband, so he's out. (He also has the same problem with disposal as she does.) She might give it to her attorney or one of her investigators, assuming they'd be willing to go along with that. Or she might stash it somewhere in the Fernies' house with the idea that she'd get it later. There are places in my garage I haven't seen since I moved in. The Fernies wouldn't have to know about it.

I'm willing to exempt the friends who were with her at the house on Dec. 26. I think they'd be outraged if she tried to make them accomplices to the murder of a small child.

 

I still don't think either R would give it to anyone else. I'd think they would just throw it away when they got the chance. Keeping it, even in someone else's care, just doesn't make sense. Too risky.

 

Say Patsy took the roll of tape out in her purse (along with the rest of the cord and the other practice ransom notes). I don't think she could run around with that with her in her purse. She couldn't be sure she wouldn't be arrested while she was out of the house. And she wouldn't leave her evidence-containing purse behind because, well, people like me would be taking a peek. (How could you resist?)

Personally, I think I'd find a nook in the house I was staying in and stash the evidence in hopes of retrieving it at a later date.

Or I'd give it to my attorney, if he'd take it.