The Doctor is IN!

With all due respect

Fly - I don't recall mentioning the Ramseys or any or specific name in my post regarding bubble baths and vaginal irritation. In fact I purposely kept my post generic.

That said, there is more than one source stating that the vaginal opening of JonBenét was significantly enlarged. IMHO, that would not happen in one night nor in a few weeks period if in fact it is true. Perhaps someone has time to posts those sources for Dr. Bea?

 

Dr. Bea

Before I forget, allow me to join in with the others in welcoming you to our little discussion group. I've been following your posts with great interest, and found your descriptions of the narcisscistic and histrionic personality disorders to be most interesting and thought provoking.

Whenever you have a spare moment, I would be interested in learning what your overall impression of the Andrea Yates murder case is, and whether or not you feel Russell Yates should be held legally accountable for his role in the tragedy.

(Note to forum: Great discussion here about Dr. Bouef and JBR's vaginal trauma, but is it fair to expect a clinical psych. to enlighten us on questions regarding anatomy and physiology?)

 

yeah, right, JR

JR - Yeah, right. These questions don't have a thing to do with the Ramseys. If you say so. Uh huh. You got it.

Where did I say the hymenal opening was not enlarged? To the contrary, I specifically said it was. Unless ST quoted somebody in his book, I can't recall having seen any medical expert use the hymenal opening to support the concept of prior abuse, however - regardless as to what your opinion is concerning the time required for enlargement. They always talk about it in the context of the abuse that occurred that night. The interstitial inflammation is what is cited as evidence of prior abuse. Or have I forgotten/missed something?

 

Actually, Dr. Wecht

explained his reasons for suspecting prior sex abuse quite well in his book, and he had me convinced - well, nearly convinced. There is still a little wiggle room there.

In rereading the list of doctor's visits made to Dr. Beuf, something has really struck me as odd. Obviously JBR had a lot of sinus problems. I wonder why Beuf didn't test her for asthma or other underlying conditions. Maybe he did, but he doesn't say so. I know a lot of kids have respiratory problems when they are young like that, but doesn't it seem a bit strange that he doesn't show any indication of trying to get to the cause of those problems? Allergies? Asthma?

I also think it is strange for a 3+ year old to have a rash from diarrhea - was she left to lay in dirty diapers? My kids were all potty trained - day and night - at a very early age - day before night, of course, but still they were out of diapers altogether before they were three years old. I think a lot of times it is laziness on the part of mom and dad when a kid is still in diapers at three years old, but I do understand the night-time thing. Yet, rashes don't ordinarily occur in kids who are kept clean, even if they have diarrhea, and I'll stick by that, because my oldest daughter, a red head, had sensitive skin like you wouldn't believe, and I had to be very careful about changing her diapers often. I realize diarrhea is messy and can travel to the vaginal area, obviously. Maybe this occurred at night and JBR wasn't changed until morning. I understand that, too, but under the circumstances, it seems a little more diligence might have been appropriate. Leaving a kid in crappy diapers for an extended period is not exactly what I call good parenting. But - again, I do understand the night-time thing.

 

Fly

It would be greatly appreciated if you would not put words in my mouth. My post about bubble baths was generic. Yes, it can be implied it was a Ramsey question, however, to come back and address my comment about the post being generic in the manner you did is uncalled for, IMHO. I didn't say it was or wasn't about the Ramseys case, I simply said, "I purposely kept my post generic."

You seem just a tad bit cranky lately Fly dear. Maybe you need to you've been hanging around to many jars of vinegar and need to locate one filled with honey.

 

Interesting Thought

Just thought I ask the Dr. a few more questions based on our most recent decisions:

Dr. Bea - Is is unusual for a 3+ year old not to be potty trained? How unusual?

Dr.Bea - Why is it difficult for some children to give up their bottle?

Here are some interesting facts that I hope someone would piece together:

I would often visit PR when Burke and my daughter were very young. We'd compare notes and stories of our children. One thing that I thought unusual was the fact that at about 1, Burke was still not sleeping through the night. Patsy asked me for advice, since my daughter had been regularly night sleeping for 9 months. I discovered that he was still being given a night bottle and told PR to give that up and she said she couldn't for fear of a crying baby.

More in a while..........

 

Cookie

Not trying to answer for Dr. Bea here.

Children wean at different ages. Some give up the nursing (be it bottle or nature's way) at a few months while others find the need to suck well into the terrible twos. IMHO, there is nothing more silly than seeing a child much beyond age two carrying around a bottle or sucking on a pacifier, but many do.

Once moved from breast to bottle (Playtex nursers), my son pulled the nipples off his bottles at about age 5-6 months. Playtex added a special ring to keep these bottles from leaking, so I would put the ring on. My son then worked on the nipple until he managed to push it inside the bottle. I then switched to regular (Evenflo) bottles and he did the same thing with those. The pediatrician told me she felt it was a good indication he was ready to be weaned and I quit giving him a bottle, though he would probably still be taking a pacifier (at age 30) had I not tossed all of them. LOL!

My daughter (15 months older) was weaned well before my son was born but would steal his bottle the minute I turned my back. Clearly, she felt a need for one (or sibling rivalry) yet she gave up the pacifier at a few months.

Kids are all unique and need to be treated as such IMHO.

I also think we tend to rush our older child into growing up a bit too soon and tend to baby our youngest child because s/he is our baby and we have learned some lessons. Also, IMHO, we hate to see those baby days gone and know they will be as the youngest progresses beyond "babyhood."

Note: I had to wean my both of my children from the breast early due to nasty yeast infections.

 

More later...

JR -- I was not surprised about the bottle so much as I was surprised about a 1 - 1 1/2 year old not sleeping through the night and that PR wouldn't or couldn't deal with that.

Another story to tie into this....

JBR was obviously having problems with bedwetting and much more. It seems that PR wouldn't or couldn't deal with that either. Were there any steps taken by the parents to remedy the situation?

Jacques, their dog had wetting problems, too. He would frequently wet in the house, even as an older dog. PR would often get mad at him and I suggested that she take the time to housebreak this dog, if necessary. Take the time......she never did.

What I'm suggesting here is that PR could not take the time to remedy basic behaviors of children and dogs and take contol. Does anyone else see a connection?

 

Interesting Cookie

Especially in view of the fact that Linda Edison McLean's book shows Patsy as a "take-control" kind of person.

Not sleeping through the night for any child beyond about nine months of age indicates a serious feeling of insecurity IMHO. What we fail to recognize is that children are born with no fears. Fear of the dark, for example is instilled in a child by older children or adults as a general rule of thumb.

There could be multiple reasons for a child not sleeping through the night including, colic, hunger, fears, adjusting to a new room or crib and so on. I was fortunate in that both of my children slept through the night from just a few weeks (6 or less) on unless they were ill or perhaps teething and having discomfort.

JonBenét clearly had bigger issues in view of the fact that she was not only wetting but from what several sources say, she was soiling her bed. This could indicate several problems from too much pressure (stress) to sexual abuse. IMHO, we may never have the answers to a lot of our questions.

 

RE: The medical reports

I have often wondered if perhaps the reason JonBenét was having so many sinus/asthma problems was because someone was smoking in the house. I believe I have read from one or two sources that at least Patsy smoked. Cookie, do you know if anyone in the home was a smoker (and smoked inside?)

 

Fly

Actually an expert DID say the enlarged opening to the vagina and damaged hymen WERE signs of sexual abuse--for some reason I am drawing a blank on his name--older guy, on Geraldo a lot, worked on the OJ Simpson case. I am senile--he wrote a book on Jonbenet.

Also--the abrasions on the vaginal walls were located, if I recall correctly, at the 6:00 position, which led several experts to believe that it was a finger used to penetrate the vagina.

 

BobC

Are you referring to Cyril Wecht perhaps?

<u>Who killed JonBenét Ramsey?</u> by Cyril Wecht

Next, "A small number of red blood cells is present on the eroded surface..." Another observation and clue about what had happened. At the seven o'clock location Meyer had found red blood cells - proving the area had just suffered some trauma or injury sufficient to force some of the blood cells out of the vessels that carry them through the body. The cells were manifestations of the injury. This, then was the sexual contact that has occurred just before JonBenét died. This was "acute." It had been inflicted in the minutes before she died. (P96;pp2)

 

yep, Tricia and yes, JR.

Tricia--I don'tknow if you were around when an interview with one of the Ramsey's housekeepers was making the rounds--but this housekeeper told Peter Boyles that at first it was Burke who was wetting the bed. But when Patsy eventually turned her attentions towards Jonbenet (when she was old enough to do pageants) that's when Burkes bed-wetting stopped and JBR's began. That's just this woman's POV, but it was interesting nonetheless.

 

BobC

I believe the interview you mentioned is posted in the case files here. Might try the search features. If you don't find it, let me know. I think I have it book marked.

 

Want a drag?

No one in that house smoked, JR. I understand PR smoked after the murder and said she quit. Before the murder, I never saw PR with a cig in her mouth and I was with her on many occasions. If she did smoke at that time, it was with other friends outside the home.

 

Cookie

Odd. I would swear someone said Patsy was smoking prior to JBR's death and part of the evidence in the case is cigarette butts found outside the house I believe.

 

Patsy did smoke occasionally. But it was always "on the cool."

Tricia--when I first started following this case I believed almost anything that anyone told me-- if they were connected to the Ramseys. But now I tend to put it all through a BS detector. I just try to be fair. And to be honest I think J and P were GREAT parents.

I just think some trigger--something very out of the ordinary happened that fateful night--but what? What led to this flashpoint of anger?


To me, there's little question that there was to some extent sexual molestation going on, but why no semen? Why only digital penetration? if this was a sexual attack, why was there no semen? Was it because a woman launched the attack for sexual reasons? Or did a woman use digital penetration as punishment for bedwetting? Or was it a man who simply covered his tracks extremely well? Certainly there was no semen on or inside the body--so why not?

I don't think anyone's gotten the motive for this murder quite right yet--myself included. That's what keeps me here...