The Doctor is IN!

BobC

Your thought on the flashpoint, or something happening that night, stirred my thoughts again on WHY no Christmas morning movie tape!

I personally think something happened while the camera was rolling that caused a LOT of problems, and ceased any picture taking. Otherwise, they could have rewound the tape and started over. I think you are right.

So whatever it was, did not come to a conclusion Christmas morning or day, but carried over to the murder that night.

Now then, WHAT WAS THE BIG 'IT'?

I am editing this post 4/11/02=to include new thoughts on why no traditional movie taking on THAT Christmas.

Two reasons for NO movies.
1. A rowdy fight broke out between Burke and JonBenet that carried over to the night of the murder and included Burke.

2. Someone showed up for Christmas morning who was not supposed to be there and created a disturbance in the movie making. That person was the murderer.

Does anyone know what TIME OF DAY Barnhill saw the man/boy who looked like JAR, approach the Ramsey house?

Dr. Bea does this sound like a rational reason that no movies were found nor made Christmas Day?

 

BobC

Why no semen?

<font color="#FF0000">Interuption before ejaculation? Inability to perform? No penetration and any "spills" cleaned up? Douche?</font color>

Why only digital penetration?

<font color="#FF0000">Initially when sexual abuse of a very young child starts, there is only the use of the hands (or no penetration) so it "feels good." Penetration may be the ultimate goal but is often led up to over time. For someone with a fully intact hymen, initial penetration can be quite painful. "playing" (i.e. use of hands and digital penetration) will eventually stretch the area making that first penetration easier.</font color>


if this was a sexual attack, why was there no semen?

<font color="#FF0000">IMHO, it wasn't a sexual attack but sexual molestation. If it had been an attack there would have also been massive bruising in the vaginal and thigh area IMHO.</font color>

Was it because a woman launched the attack for sexual reasons?

<font color="#FF0000">Not out of the question IMHO, but less likely.</font color>

Or did a woman use digital penetration as punishment for bedwetting?

<font color="#FF0000">Again, not out of the question. Have you read Syble? (SP) Sometimes other items are used such as an enema or douche nozzle.</font color>

Or was it a man who simply covered his tracks extremely well?

<font color="#FF0000">Possible but one with a very small penis IMHO, if penetration took place.<font color>

Certainly there was no semen on or inside the body--so why not?

<font color="#FF0000">Douche? No ejaculation? Interuption before ejaculation? Inability to perform?

(Beginning to feel like a sex ed teacher here Bob.)</font color>

 

You left one out, JaR

Condom?

 

I don't think so guys. Lubricant would have been found along with trace evidence from the condom like spermacide I would think. Also why the abrasions at the seven o'clock position if it was a penis? No douche would get rid of all the semen if there had been ejaculation in the vagina--traces would still be there.

I can go along with what JR said about the molestation just starting so that it was in the "touching" stage.

 

minute traces of semen would have been found even if the molester didn't ejaculate,

 

Right, BobC

I've never thought she was penetrated by anything other than a finger, but a condom could explain why, if a male did ejaculate anywhere in the vicinity of her body, there was no semen. I personally don't think that happened.

 

odds and ends

WY - Spousefly and I changed our kids as quickly and thoroughly as possible, but they still got some pretty ugly rear ends at times when dealing with diarrhea. That stuff can be pretty caustic.

JR - If I'm cranky, it's because it's tiresome to see the same bogus issues, misinformation, and crappy reasoning for 5 years.

Sure, your question didn't say JonBenet or Ramsey, but you know, I know, and everybody else knows your question was not truly generic. You can pretend if you like, but please don't insult me by denying it was about JBR.

Tricia - A few things have always bothered me about the report of JBR defecating in her bed. First, have we ever gotten a clear indication as to when this occurred (what age)? Second, just how does one pass grapefruit-sized feces (is there reason to question the accuracy of the story?)? Third, hasn't LHP stated that PR handled washing JBR's sheets when she'd had an accident at night? If that was the procedure, how did LHP know about the defecation and especially the specifics involved?

Whomever (can't remember and too lazy to go back) mentioned the timing of Burke's bladder control - Perhaps there is some significance to the timing. However, it's also very possible it was just coincidence due to their ages. The difference in the two kids' ages means Burke reached the age at which most "late" kids quit having major problems about the same time JBR had gotten old enough to do kid, rather than baby, things.

 

BobC, there would only be semen if there was at least pre-ejaculation, things may not have gotten that far. IMHO, there was no penetration with said appendage, I was just responding to your question.

Y's condom post is possible BobC if one presumes a spermicide was not used. Spermicide wouldn't be needed if the male had a vasectomy, or the female was incapable of conceiving, (which a six-year old should be) for example. Not all condoms are pre-lubricated. K-Y Jelly is water soluble and traces might or might not be left depending on the effectiveness of the douche, IMHO.

Fly, let's agree to disagree. No insult was intended. Seems like you are simply looking for an arguement lately and I have no intention of going there.

 

Don't forget.....

There had to be one final "pagent scrub"/wipe down before her final appearance - when Dad found her......in a star studded sequined shirt that she was allowed to SLEEP in.........with her necklace on.....hair pulled together in two ponytails......tummy void of any last "real meal" - God only knows how much more there is that we have yet to find out.

This is just as heartbreaking today as Day one.

 

More Questions

RR, was JBR really wearing a necklace?

Dr. Bea, tell me what you know of autism. Is it possible for a child to display autistic behaviors after experiencing a tragic event?

 

Good

Cookie - You were fortunate enough not to look at the pictures from the Lou Smit Traveling TodayShow/Smoke and Mirrors Show - they clearly show her gold chain - I really don't want to describe it at the moment - just rememering is bad enough.

 

tricia and thor

I am sitting here wondering why it is that I have been so uninformed about this and many other cases. I imagine that the rest of the American Public is like me - we really don't know much about this case at all. In some ways, this is good, because you are getting the opinion of someone who knows NOTHING. Just the little I saw on the news all those years ago.

I am responding to how parents manage the grief reaction of a murdered sibling. In this case, Tricia told me that the R's received some kind of note from a "foreign faction" that informed them that the little girl had been kidnapped. It strikes me, and I don't know why, that if someone had wanted to get at Mr. R, they would have taken his SON, not his daughter, I'm not sure why, but it hit me that way. So, thought I'd add my non-psychological two cents there. Anyway..

I would be curious to know what the brother was told, if he were ever enrolled in any kind of psychotherapy, especially immediately after the tragic event. Trish describes how the child acts reallly strangely during an interview, which is entirely consistent with terrified children in shock. The refusal to talk, the interest in the watch, etc. all are consistent with behavior of a child attempting to deal with a horrible event. Does this neccessarily imply that he knew his parents did something horrible and the child was avoiding telling the police? No. But it also doesn't mean that this wasn't the case either.

I would understand if parents did not go into the gorey details about the sister's death, but it would seem that if the story that Trish tells me about the death being construed as happening by people who were angry with the boy's father, most parents would go to great lengths to reassure the boy, talk to him about how to stay safe, talk to him about what "foreign factions" were, and the like. I would also have my child involved in planning with proper authorities at a certain level (present with a police figure) talking about the plan for the family. (In my mind, I imagine the parents going over a protection plan with proper authorities and then inviting their little boy into this discussion to inform him about what he can do and what the family will do to stay safe.)
I would be intensely curious if this child ever received grief counseling. How old is this boy now? 14 or 15? I would be interested to know about the functioning of this boy some years later. How are his grades? Has he been in trouble?

 

the grandparents, the parents and the rest

As I've been reading and looking at those horrible pictures, I've consulted with my colleague, Dr. Cynical. She is actually more suited to respond to many of these questions, especially the LESS general ones that have to do with forensic psychology because that is what she does: forensic psychology. And she told me to call her Dr. Cynical. Who else would have "The Psychology of Stalking" as her bedside reading but Dr. Cynical?
However, she has no clue about the internet, computers, posting and all of that. I'm surprised she can use a telephone! (HA). I asked her about the pedophilia angle and she and I agree that it looks like a "distractor item" in this case. Her point was that the dressing up of a child to look seductive would be attractive to some pedophiles and not to others, perhaps, but primarily because pedophiles are attracted TO CHILDREN IN GENERAL, that the dressing up of this child in those horrid seductive clothes would not necessarily make her more attractive to male family members. Usually, you are a pedophile or you aren't.

I think that this whole thing is a "woman thing" and so does Dr. C. We both got interested in the mother's history. The soiling in the bed (encopresis) is often indicative of a child who feels that she has no control over anything in her life. Here is a child who has not been allowed to just "be a child." I was told that even her hair was bleached and when going over those medical records that someone posted (I read this whole thread first) I noted that there were alot of visits to the MD when it looked like her appearance was going to be affected. More than I do with my own kid, that's for sure. The consult with the plastic surgeon was especially notable for me.

Then Trish lays on me that the mother herself was a beauty queen. Without knowing anything more, this tells me that there was some strange relationship between the mother and her own mother, and that no one knew how to parent young children. Having the child at that young age be exposed to the extreme rigors of photo shoots, learning to sing and dance, striking those seductive and charming poses, would take a great deal of time and energy from any child's life. When the child started acting out her dismay by showing encopresis, (which is the CLASSIC way for a distressed child to communicate), as a parent, I would have a) consulted my pediatrician immediately and b) consulted a psychotherapist immediately. I have a zillion referrals from pediatricians for these very issues in children and they are usually about stress, control issues, and abuse.

Imagine that your child shows an incredible talent for ice skating. He is amazing and perhaps you feel that he could be one of the world's greatest athletes. One day he comes to you and says "I don't want to do this. I want to play soccer and be a regular kid. Don't be mad at me." What would you do? I had a family in this position and they were horrified that their child didn't feel he could tell them this in the first place. The bulk of the therapy was with parents and child, helping them understand why he felt he couldnt' disappoint them.

I can't imagine that this kid never tried to resist the model/photo/sing and dance thing, at least once. If no consultation or care was sought for her soiling (encopresis) or if the physician did not refer to a psychologist for at least an evaluation of it (assuming he knew), then I am appalled.

Which brings us back to motivation to force a child to behave in this way. If she were say 9, or even 7, I could imagine her getting more satisfaction from performing than at 3 to 5. One hypothesis is that the mother's own sense of unsatisfaction in her childhood, or a drive for perfection and perfect beauty as the thing to be desired in a girl or woman has now projected itself on to her daughter. In short, the pathology of the parent has now oozed onto the daughter and is acting itself out in a new person, on a new stage. If the child had lived, without psychotherapy or somme huge insightful miracle, I can easily image her own children having to live up to similar pressures.

So, does anyone know anything about the relationship between Patsy and her own mother?

Oh, and I am curious - did the little girl go to kindergarter and first grade? If she died at age 6, then she might have only been to kindergarten. What were the impressions of her kindergarten teacher? What about the impressions of a sunday school teacher (if there was one), or pre-school teacher? Were there ever any babysitters?

What a horrible and sad situation.



Onto the question about that picture of the mother POSING by her child's gravestone five years later.

I think that this suggests that the mother is interested in having her picture taken. I am trying to imagine why a mother would be motivated to have such a picture taken. Could she be wanting to keep the investigation alive by having her picture made by the grave? I don't know. What is the impression of this group in terms of this family wanting to keep the investigation alive? For example, the Chandra Levy family has very much hoped that the investigation of their child's disappearance would not simply fade away. Still, if I wanted to keep my child's death in the public eye, I don't think I'd pose by her grave. I don't understand the handd position in the picture. When I am sad or horrified, I find myself putting my hands over my heart. This mother's hands seem as if they are around her neck, but I can't see the picture well and am too computer dumb to make it get bigger.


What a fascinating and sad situation.


More information about the players, please, including the grandparents, ok?
Thanks.

 

camper and the batteries

re: the batteries.

I think that the battery thing could happen to anyone. I'm more interested in what was going on, daily, in that home long before the tragedy occurred. I think that de-constructing the minute details of That Day, while useful, might not be as helpful as pulling back and taking a very very long view.

Could this have been an accident? Could the stress of Christmas perfection, combined with a soiling accident, vigourous cleansing in an angry fashion, and perhaps a shove or something - could that have been what happened to this poor little girl?

But now I am out of my scope of practice. I am not a forensic expert, only a psychologist who works with children and families.
And personality disordered adults.


Thanks for your post, though. It is amazing to see how many people care about a child that none of us ever knew.

 

teachers, etc.

Essentially all reports I've seen have said that JBR was perceived to be a normal, basically happy child by those around her. The housekeeper's comments about toileting problems is the major exception. She had gone to preschool and was in kindergarten at the time of her death. She reportedly was doing fine in school.

We haven't heard about Burke getting into trouble. Comments from his parents suggested to me that he might not be a straight A student and might be going through some of the usual "issues" of adolescence, but had no major problems.

There have been a couple of documentaries on child beauty pageants shown on TV during the past couple of years. HBO was showing one last month. Watch them if you can. Quite unbelievable. PR has a lot of company out there.

 

Fly's right. Yeah Burke got a little wierd for a while (talking to himself, yelling at people he didn't want to talk to) and apparently he threw a big tantrum in high school band, but honestly I've never seen or heard of anything out of the ordinary. Little kids go through their wierd little stages. It bugs me how people want to read enormous things into his every move, drawing, tantrum blah blah blah.

Jonbenet was pushed into, and groomed for, the pageants since she was two. Even earlier, actually--Nedra, Patsy's mother, said "we have a future Miss America here" (something like that) when JBR was born. When Ramsey friend Judith Phillips asked Nedra what would happen if Jonbenet decided she wanted to drop out of the pageant thing, Nedra replied "We would say 'Jonbenet you WILL do it." So that's the basic mindset we had there.

Jonbenet told some people that she hated doing the pageants and told others she loved doing them. So I would say she was just like any other kid--some days she felt one way, later she felt another.

The regression in potty training was disturbing to a lot of people and even at age six she was asking grown-ups to whipe her. This made several adult friends of the R's pretty uncomfortable, especially males. There was at least one incident where Fleet White, a Ramsey family friend, had to send JBR back home wearing his daughter's underwear because JBR had fouled her own.

 

BobC

BobC - Maybe I just keep missing the dates/ages, but the timing of the episode of her having to borrow the underwear is another of those things I've never had clear as to when it occurred.

We've getting mixed stories, IMO. Most versions I've heard had her having problems with night control, not day control - at least that last period. Some forum posters have said she had more general problems, but unless I've just forgotten or missed something (which is possible), I don't think any significant daytime accidents have been clearly established.

OK, I know some here get tired of having their errors pointed out by me. Here's another great, maybe easy, opportunity to prove me wrong. ;-)

 

There were many daytime incidents. Several friends told this to Schiller and the cops. The Ramseys didn't even know the Whites for more than I think two years, so the incidents had to happened in that time frame. Jonbenet was REGRESSING in her toilet training by all accounts. She was still wearing pull-ups and still wanted her bottle at age six. So something was going on there, maybe something small, maybe something big. Who knows.