The Doctor is IN!

BobC · Apr 12, 2002

I don't see these stories as being mixed--I see them as being normal mood-swings. One day a little girl wants to be a balleria, a day later she's gonna be a doctor.

Cookie · Apr 12, 2002

Dr. Bea

I was familiar with the relationship between PR and her mother, Nedra. What do you want to know?

Tricia · Apr 12, 2002

Hi Cookie,

I'll be speaking with the good Dr. on Sunday. Dr. Bea is going to try and check the threads over the weekend I know that. So check back off and on over the weekend ok?

Dr. Bea is very interested in Nedra.

Cookie perhaps you can shed some light on Nedra and Patsy's relationship. I don't know what exactly Dr. Bea wants to know. How about starting with anything that can shed some light on how Nedra treated Patsy as a child and as an adult.

I found this comment from Dr. Bea most interesting.

"In short, the pathology of the parent has now oozed onto the daughter and is acting itself out in a new person, on a new stage."

In other words we are our mothers.

Patsy did not win the major brass ring, the Miss America title. She lost to a blond.

If I remember correctly Patsy did not start pageants at an early age. Didn't she start as a teenager? Then she lost the big one.

I wonder if her late start, ( if true) and big loss, was a motivating factor in starting JonBenet in the pageant world so early.

Pope · Apr 13, 2002

Tricia

Patsy was in at least one pageant at a very young age or dance recital. There
is a picture of her at around age two or three dressed
in a tutu on page 23 of Linda McLean's book. Patsy took ballet lessons at that age and tap dancing. She looks
very cute and is not all painted up the way JB was. The book says Patsy had her first pageant at sixteen as DeMolay Sweetheart. All the Paugh girls were involved in some type of creative lessons. Pam sang and Polly was a swimmer. There is no way of telling from what I have been able to learn in this book if Nedra was a stage mother, it is written as a ProRam. The book was the
only one to show a picture of Patsy at a young age.

The book that does give the most background on Patsy and Nedra
is the Jane Stobie book. Jane paints the picture of Nedra as an overbearing and pushy stage mother. Stobie says Nedra was a status seeker and very enmeshed with Patsy who seemed to be her mother and dad's favorite, do no wrong child. Stobie says
Patsy and Nedra talked to each to each other many times a day
long distance and Nedra made frequent trips to Boulder. When Patsy would call, Nedra would drop everything. Nedra was caught up in Patsy's life and was prone to putting people down and putting on airs. Stobie's book also was the one to report the story of Nedra and Polly talking about sexually explicit things
at work including the size of Burke's manhood.

Schiller's book has a quote from Nedra about the handicapped
children at Jonbenet's school and how upset they were with these kids slowing the normal kids down.

Hope this helps with background information.
Thanks so much for bringing Dr. Bea to us. This thread has
been fascinating to read.

Dunvegan · Apr 17, 2002

Patsy Paugh and JonBenet Ramsey in Competition(s)

<b>Patsy as a child in costume for recital</b>
<img src="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/images/patsy_recital.jpg">

<b>JonBenet as a 1996 America's Royal Miss contestant</b>
<img src="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/images/jonbenet_royalmiss.jpg">

Cookie · Apr 13, 2002

WOW!

Thanks for those photos. The likeness of PR and JBR is incredible!

I am really not that familiar with PR's childhood, but what I do know is that initially, the Poughs lived in a simple middle class house until PR's dad transferred jobs and they moved into a more upper middle class environment.

PR said that she met an older girl from her high school, that had won the Miss WV pageant. She was fascinated with the idea and decided to get involved, as well as her mother, Nedra. PR became very successful in the pageant system, along with the continued coaching and involvement of her mother.

Jane Stobie has an interesting view of Nedra and I would encourage Dr. Bea to read her book. Yes, Nedra was pushy, opinionated and controlling. She was, indeed, the HEAD of the household, even after her daughters got married. She was a force to contend with! She was a short woman, and frail in her elder years, and stayed extremely involved in all of her daughter's lives.

She would say the darnest things:

At PR's house, she showed me a small antique chair that JBR had selected and they bought. It was beautiful and looked very expensive. She then said to me, "If John keeps making the money, Patsy will spend it and now JBR will too!"

I was at one of the Christmas parties and a bunch of us girlfriends of PR were gathered around the dining room table eating, when Nedra came up to us and said, "Be careful ladies that you don't eat too much. After all, our figures is all us women have to keep a man."

When she showed me JBR's pink cowgirl outfit, that JBR wore in a pageant, I asked her what would happened if JBR eventually tired of the pageants. What would they do? She casually replied, "We would tell JBR, you WILL do it!"

These a few encounters that I remember off the top of my head.

Yes, Nedra liked wealth and the prestige that came with it. She wanted it for her daughters. She wanted her daughters to live the comfortable life, and her eldest, PR, had the ability to make it happen. I believe that Nedra saw the pageant system as a way for her daughters and other women to break out of the middle class life. "To be somebody!"

Nedra hated Boulder. She would often refer to the 15th Street as the "hell-hole!" She felt that Boulder was unsophisticated, full of hippies and low-lifes. She much preferred that PR move back to Atlanta, where life was more refined.

She did have a BIG heart for her daughters. She supervised PR's life when she was battling cancer. She completely took over the household duties and the children, which probably was not easy, and nursed PR during her illness. Can you imagine the strength of character, that it took, to see her daughter in that condition, and manage EVERYTHING! Amazing!

What else, DR,. Bea?

Little_Angel_1990 · Oct 9, 2005

What was wrong with her?

fly said:

12/96: Misses pageant due to illness.
Click to expand...

What did JonBenet have? A cold?

Just curious.

-little angel

Elle · Oct 9, 2005

Where's Dr. Bea now Tricia? I enjoyed her posts. She was so natural with her posts, just as if she was just talking to you. She sounds very approachable. Nice lady!

Elle · Oct 9, 2005

Dr. Bea:

Vic: I used to teach this course at a local university, so be prepared for a long winded talk! First, let's get clear about what a "personality disorder" means. First, a Personality Disorder is not something that you can get and then passes easily or even not so easily (as in major depression, panic attacks, etc.). Instead, it refers to an enduring pattern of a person's inner experiences and outer behaviors that is problematic and/or deviates from the expecations that our general culture has about how to behave. This pattern must be inflexible and pervasive, across a wide range of situations (e.g. you see it at work, you see it in the person's relationships with family members, you see it in the person's views of themselves or the world.) The pattern needs to be long lasting, usually beginning in early adolescence or at the least by early adulthood and finally, it causes impairment in a person's social, occupational, or other areas of functioning or causes the person a great deal of distress.

OK. We all have "personalities" (as defined above) and perhaps when stressed, we might even show what looks like personality disorder. The best example of a Borderline Personality Disorder would be Glenn Close's performance in Fatal Attraction.

Now let's talk Narcissistic and Histrionic Personality disorder. They are in the same cluster of disorders (Cluster "B" for those of you who are interested in such things) but are quite different from one another. What they share is that in each, the individual has little or no ability to truly empathize with another person. There is no insight into the effects of this person's behavior upon other people and others are often used as "props" or "mirrors" to achieve one's own purposes, whether it be the gaining of self-esteem (e.g. I married a doctor so that means I am important, or I am a doctor so that means I am important versus I am a human being and so therefore am valuable in and of myself.) The Histrionic Personality has a generally coquettish feel, with marked discomfort when they are not the center of attention, interactions with others what are often inappropriately sexually seductive or provocative, and a rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotions. These people are Drama Kings or Queens. They are superfically quite warm and charming and can be entertainingly theatric. However, this is sadly about all they can do, never being able to stop the performance, as inside they are underdeveloped, shallow and empty. They often use physical appearance to draw attention to themselves and very often focus on the surface of things (given that there isn't much of an internal life.) The drama portion of their personality can be used to manipulate others who allow that sort of thing. These people are also easily suggestible and are easily influenced by other strong people or circumstances. Finally, they often consider relationships to be more intimate than they actually are. "She's my best and dearest friend" when indeed, the person did not show up to the hospital when said friend had a serious illness requiring surgery, would be an example of this.

Narcissistic people have much less warmth and are usually much less personable and instead have a grandiose sense of self-importance. These folks overestimate their abilities and inflate their accomplishments, often appearing boastful or pretentious. They may ruminate about admiration which they feel is long overdue or sometimes compare themselves favorably with famous people. These people believe that they are SPECIAL and that their needs are more important that those of "ordinary" people, so they often only want the "top" doctor, lawyer, decorator, etc. They insistent on the best and then promptly devalue anyone who disappoints them. They require huge amounts of admiration because their self esteem is so incredibly fragile. They are astonished when others don't covet what they have, and they expect to be given the red carpet treatment 24/7. Entitlement is usually seen here. For example, this means that the person thinks that because they are in a hurry, others should allow them to move to the front of the line in the store (as if no one else is in a hurry). They expect to be given whatever they feel they want or need, no matter what the impact is on other people. They also demand great dedication from others with no sense about how the other person's life is impacted. For example, imagine a rock musician demanding at the last minute that his or her entire entourage spend the Christmas holidays, including Christmas Day, preparing for an upcoming concert or just "hanging out", and being outraged that an employee would want to spend Christmas with his or her own family instead. This would be met with "narcissistic rage", the employee likely deemed disloyal and then immediately fired, with absolutely no sense that the demand was unreasonable and that (and this is the whole key) other people have feelings and thoughts and lives that are separate from one's own.

While the Histrionic demands attention/love/praise in a very selfish way (read Jane Austen's Emma to see a recovering Histrionic) the Narcissist is grandiose and perfect. Narcissists need ADMIRATION while hysterics (histrionic PD people) need attention, usually reassurance that they are loved, important, good, beautiful, etc.). Not to say that we don't all need that, but the hysteric is addicted, if you will, and the need for attention is the primary goal in relating to another person. Period.

The Narcissist is "the best" and doesn't give a **** if you like them or not. Either you adore them, worship them and admire them or to hell with you. The Histrionic person gets freaked out if everyone does not love them and will go to great lengths, usually to make sure of it. If finally met with people who don't like to always play second fiddle, they will usually drop them along the way.

Sorry for the long winded answer. You therapists out there will recognize that much of the information I presented comes right of the the DSM. (the Big Bible of Diagnoses for those non-shrinky types).
Click to expand...

Thank you for bumping this thread forward. This account of a Personality Disorder is incredible. No need to fill in the blanks here, as to who fits this description, is there?

Elle · Oct 9, 2005

BobC said:

On the serious side, Br. bea, I want to say RIGHT ON about what you said regarding how a family DEALS with sexual or physical abuse being as or more important than the actual event. I worked with ED kids for a while and one thing that became very clear early on was that none of the boys would EVER talk about the sexual abuse they experienced. Some were very angry, some set fires, some became very aggressive sexually, but none of them wanted to talk about it.

The sad fact is most feel ashamed even though they are too young to articulate it. These kids almost always feel they are to blame. Parents and relatives who inflict sexual abuse are manipulative and self-centered and they are quite skilled in making the child feel that great harm will come his or her way if they tell. The pedophile's entire existence relies upon not being detected or caught. I saw kids who had been raped as toddlers and at the time I didn't believe that was even possiblem, but believe me it is.

Some kids deal with it, some get help, some don't, and still others become predators themselves.

Great to have you here, Doc.
Click to expand...

Oh, this is so sad, Bob. I didn't know you had worked with ED children. I never thought that little babies and toddlers could be raped. NEVER! It makes me so angry and sad.

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