The DoubleB Needs Help

:floor:

What I do not understand is why jams can't just make a call to Smit and ask him who this person is? Surely Smit has seen all the pageant videos and pics a hundred times, interviewed all the pageant producers and managers, etc. How about Ollie and his WORLD-CLASS investigators? Jams has him on speed-dial, doesn't she?

How about Pam Paugh? Surely Pam Paugh knows. Didn't she go to all of JonBenet's pageants? Or at least know the names of the people putting them on? I bet Pammy would be THRILLED to find out if that is Karr. A few phone calls and VOILA!

Oh, forget the phone calls, surely the Paughs have their own copies of videos/pictures of all the pageants where JonBenet won a crown! They could just pop them in their VCRs or pull out their albums and there "Karr-like" would be!

But no. Jams is leaving the little heads to their fervent speculation. Gotta' keep those intruder suspects on the front burner, after all! And since they're posting there for free now, guess jams ain't gonna' provide anymore "inside info". It would be such a downer, too, if it's not PERV Karr, for some of them so have their hearts set on PERV Karr being good for it.

 

I think jameson realises that it's probably not JMK.

 

Well, you know me, Elle - I call them as I see them. It's not a criticism of heymom - I think she's an excellent poster and a great thinker, and I admire her tenacity and her views on politics, even if I don't always agree with her. She's an asset to FFJ - I'm glad she's here.

 

Yes, WY, I knew it wasn't a criticism, and I agree with what you're saying here. It still made me feel better. I enjoy posting with heymom. She's very much upfront.

 

Maybe I shouldn't say this, as I can't swear to it with my aging brain betraying me more everyday, but I am thinking that Judith Phillips once said that JonBenet had a shift in personality, about the time she and Patsy got back from Texas the summer of '96. I'm thinking Judith said she was more somber, or something like that. Anyone remember that?

And I brought this up at topix recently, but I'm going to say it again: why was JonBenet in kindergarten at six years of age? I looked up the cut off date for age to enter first grade, and it's the end of September in Boulder. So JonBenet was age appropriate for being with her first grade school group, but she was in kindergarten. I just don't understand why she would have been delayed, especially since everyone says she was smart. Some mentioned her potty training issues might be the reason. Why would Patsy say toileting issues were no big deal if that's true? Keeping her back a year in school seems to me to be a very big deal if it is because JonBenet still was having toileting issues at her age, IMO.

Remember that Patsy spoke of JonBenet going to a church pre-school. The decision not to put JonBenet in first grade would seem to have been decided the year before, when she wasn't put in kindergarten when she was actually 5, right? Unless she was in kindergarten for two years?

That just puzzles me. Maybe she couldn't enter kindgarten the year before because of her toileting issues...? Is entering first grade contingent upon having gone a year to kindergarten now and being "passed"?

 

Hahahahaaha

 

KK, I've always wondered the same thing. Why was JonBenet in Kindergarten at age six when most six year olds girls are in 1st grade. I know sometimes boys are kept back because of immaturity issues (and some have dads hoping they'll be bigger in their grade to play football and other sports), but most normally developed, intelligent six year old girls go to Kindergarten at age five and 1st grade at age six.

The normal birthday cut-off date for 1st grade in most schools is that you have to be six by September 1st (as you said). Even though JonBenet was six on August 6th, if she was as bright and advanced as Patsy said she was, there should have been no problem with her going to 1st grade at the age of six.

As you also said, that raises the question of - did JonBenet go to Kindergarten for two years? Most American pre-schools are for three and four year olds, then five year olds go to Kinder, and six year olds go to 1st grade. Certainly, a violin-playing, French-speaking, super-accomplished six year old beauty queen would have been placed in 1st grade, not Kindergarten - especially if she'd already been in Kindergarten at age five! Only the very immature, or those with diagnosed learning problems, are held back another year to repeat Kindergarten. If JonBenet didn't go to Kinder at age five, why not? Was she held back in pre-school another year? That is VERY unusual.

 

I didn't see that one. What was the name of the one with Judy Evans? Do you know? She looked like Patsy's twin...it was unbelievable.

 

:blush: :hug: :grouphug:

You are too sweet! I didn't take Elle's statement wrong, or yours for that matter. I am all too fallible, and today of all days, I realize how human and temporal I am. I like being called tenacious and a great thinker! Where's that swelling head smiley??? The one where he can't get through the door? I'll have to make do with this one, pretending that my head is so light it's lifting me right off the ground..

:beammeup:

 

We are discussing this same subject matter, over at WBS. Some say toileting issues...and others say that Patsy wanted more time for her to do her pageants...and that is why she started late. I am not positive, but I do not believe that having finished kindergarten is a requirement to start first grade. At least it didn't used to be...

 

Yes, these days, you have to go through K and "pass," and learn what you are supposed to learn before going into 1st grade. In the schools my kids went through, I doubt if they would accept a 5-year-old into K if she wasn't toilet trained. In fact, the kids really need to be trained by age 4 at the latest. Some of the kids would wet their mats at nap time, but by age 4, they are VERY embarrassed when that happens, and their classmates do make fun of them. Cruel, but that's the way it is.

If JonBenet had been held back, perhaps it was in the pre-school or pre-K grades, so that she came to K as a 6-year-old. I did know one boy who got retained in K, while his classmates passed into 1st grade. It probably was the right decision for him, but it was hard because he always gravitated toward his former friends on the playground, and felt more at home playing with them. So it is possible to be retained in kindergarten. They need to be writing, able to follow instructions, trying to read if not fluently reading, and have the stamina to go to school all day without a nap. There are other benchmarks, but those are some of the main ones.

Wondering if JonBenet was immature for her age, in spite of French, violin, and beauty pageants...

 

Great topic and I think it deserves a thread of its own. This was discussed at Topix also and there were many good observations about this

Perhaps the potty training was the reason
Perhaps Patsy was nervous that the wetting would raise questions
Perhaps Patsy wanted the company for another year so that SHE would have something to do every day
Perhaps Patsy was worried that JBR being academically challenged, would require yet more tutors like Burke had and then JBR would not outshine the other kids; something important for Patsy. bleached blonde hair, makeup and good looks won't get JBR good "school" marks

Another unanswered question

Poor JonBenet

 

The cut off date for age in Boulder now is Sept. 30, so JB was well within that range unless they've changed it in the last 10 years:

http://bvsd.org/OurSchools/Pages/Enrolling Your Child in BVSD.aspx

This is another one of the topics the RST won't address. They know the answer, and the fact that they won't talk about it tells me it's not good spin for the Ramseys. They have no problem trashing other people's children, but remain silent on this.

 

Being toilet-trained is an absolute pre-requisite for starting PRE-SCHOOL here. No child is accepted into a program without it.

Maybe that's why JonBenet got behind. If she wasn't toilet-trained by age four, then she wasn't allowed to enter pre-school. Perhaps, it was the next year (at age five) that she was finally dry during the daytime and was permitted to be in pre-school, so she was delayed in getting to Kindergarten until age six.

It's obvious JonBenet was not the gifted child Patsy wanted everyone to believe. A child who does not enter Kindergarten until age six and who cannot read family names like Mom, Dad, Burke and her own name at Christmas time is not someone who excels at cognitive knowledge. The early French and violin lessons were Patsy's own self-congratulatory nods to "culture" as she saw it, and a part of what she wanted her children known for. Why not Spanish and harmonica lessons? Because Patsy didn't see that as part of a perfect and gifted child's repetoire or image.

Furthermore, just because JonBenet TOOK French and violin lessons doesn't mean she was any good at either of them. To assume JonBenet was advanced because she was taking those lessons is a lesson in illogical thinking. I've known many people who took lessons at subjects in which they had no talent and did dreadfully. But Patsy must brag, and brag she did at any little thing she could think of to burnish her image and that of her family.

JonBenet was an average little girl with non-average stress and expectations placed upon her by the circumstances of her birth. She was born to a woman who needed her as a prize adornment and minature of herself. JonBenet became the outward manifestation of Patsy's own need for a perfect and admired self. Even in death, JonBenet elevated Patsy to that of a suffering Madonna, mourning the loss of her sacred, perfect child. It was never about JonBenet, but always about Patsy, and that is why the staging of the crime scene took place and why the Ramseys (with the help of Hunter and Haddon) went free.

 

No kidding. It's open season on everyone and everyone else's children EXCEPT the Ramseys, who are to the RST & IDIs both perfection personified and designated diety.

 

Brilliant post, as usual. That pretty much sums up Patsy's relationship with JonBenet. Poor little girl. I'm glad Patsy didn't have 2 little girls. At least Burke wasn't absorbed by his mother the way JonBenet was.

 

If JonBenét was still having toilet problems, KK, do you ever wonder how she managed to wear those skimpy little costumes, walking on the stage without having an accident. I suppose the pull-ups would suffice to catch urine, but what about the other deal where JonBenét was too lazy to even wipe her own bottom when soiled.

Nedra told Steve Thomas JonBenét would shout on anyone at hand to come and wipe her when she was on the potty. How on earth could Patsy stop her from doing this on stage? That must have been a bit hazardous allowiing her to get up on that stage and walk around.

Most schools do not allow children into first grade unless they are fully toilet trained as far as I know up here in Canada.

It was no big deal to Patsy because she just never bothered about that side of things. Young Burke was still a bed wetter too. She just wasn't the type who cared enough about this situation to help both children. She was too busy into what JonBenét would wear on stage.

 

Well said, Cherokee.

 

I've often though about JBR's potty issues with regards to both school and the pageants. A child in Kindergarten/First Grade would be expected to be toilet-trained, no question. An occasional accident wouldn't be a problem, but repeated occurrences would certainly result in the school wanting to discuss the issue with the parent- to see of there was a medical reason or some emotional problems. Today, it would also likely raise a question of sexual abuse, as it is a well-known behavior in many children who suffer this.
Yes, I can imagine PR being extremely frustrated with her daughter's potty problems, especially as far as the pageants are concerned.
Though pull-ups today (as opposed to the 70s, when I was changing diapers) and disposable diapers are much thinner and less noticeable than they used to be, it would still be very embarrassing for PR (but I bet not JBR) for the other pageant moms to know JBR, the perennial winner, was not toilet trained.
If JBR was fully trained by age 3, as a lot of little girls are, and then regressed as PR went through her chemo, as Nedra said, that makes 3 years of PR dealing with a child who soiled and wet her clothes and bedclothes on a daily basis. That wears thin, and someone of PR's temperament - well, let's just say that on a late Christmas night, with hours of preparations for an early-morning flight and a trip she didn't want to make...yet ANOTHER accident after returning home could very well have pushed her over the edge.