The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie - The Book

But wouldn't such a psychological mechanism have been more consistent with Patsy turning herself in to the police? For Sandy Stranger fingered her manipulative (ex)teacher Miss Jean Brodie to the headmistress, so why didn't the 'Sandy side' of Patsy turn the 'Miss Brodie' side of Patsy over to the police?

 

Because "the police" were outside Patsy's mind.

Patsy was dealing with a greater authority; her God.

Patsy turned herself into her God (as in surrender) via JonBenet.

 

Her sex life probably stopped after her cancer treatment. Her ability to perform for John stopped, another link to John gone, another hold on him gone. The sexualization of JonBenet accelerated after the treatment. Patsy's latent authentic sexuality was transfered to the object. John lost on both accounts.

I think Patsy's admission to the housekeeper/confessor was whitewasing.

 

I don't think it was, since Patsy could simply have kept her mouth shut, not telling LHP anything about her problems.

Why would Patsy feel the need to 'sacrifice' JonBenet? What would she have 'gained' from it?

Jmpo, but I don't see a shred of a 'Sandy Stranger side' in Patsy.
Sandy is a very independent spirit, extremely intelligent and astute, an excellent judge of character. Sandy was the girl of the Brodie set whom Miss Brodie could never manipulate, who always saw through her with her X-Ray like look. Miss Brodie sensed this, hence her threat to Sandy: "one day you will go too far".

Sandy analyzed Miss Jean Brodie's like a scientist would analyze a beetle under a microscope. She never fell for Miss Brodie's silly "you girls will be the creme de la creme" mantra.

Despite Miss Brodie's belief, her influence on the other girls in which she took so much pride ("give me a girl at an impressionable age and she's mine for life") was only short-lived.
Even a person like Rose, far 'meeker' than Sandy, when finishing school, "shook off Miss Brodie's influence like a dog shakes pond-water from its coat".
Sandy recognized that Miss Brodie had fascistoid character traits, using her position as a teacher to act out her illusion of grandiosity by abusing her (chosen) pupils into becoming her admiring audience. Brodie created a stage for herself where she enacted the drama of her life for her eager audience, a drama probably more based on fiction that on fact.

Sandy was of the opinion that Miss Brodie was a unconscious lesbian.
She also thought Miss Brodie's sexual feelings were 'satisfied by proxy', in that she arranged for Rose to become Teddy Lloyd's lover. The supreme irony is that instead of Rose, it was Sandy who ended up sleeping with Teddy Lloyd, although he thought she was ugly, and even cruelly told her so.

Large parts of the book are seen through Sandy Stranger's perspective. She thought of JB as ridiculous, as a middle-aged (although no doubt charismatic) spinster who spiced up her humdrum existence by creating her own 'reality'.

But then why didnt Patsy kill herself if the Sandy side of Patsy wanted to kill the Jean Brodie side of Patsy? Then it would not have been outside Patsy's mind.

 

Actually, it was Sandy who was most influenced by Brodie. She put a stop to Brodie influencing other girls, thereby attempting to put a stop to Brodie's narcissistic influence on Sandy herself; unconscious transference psych 101. Sandy of course could not pull it off. She then chose a God and entered it's circle (church) of influence as a substitute for Brodie. No, she did not have an independent spirit, she was Catholic through and through.

As far as killing herself: many people do when faced with these conflicts. The fight or flight mechanism can lead to violence going out or going in or both.

As far as not seeing Sandy in Patsy; Sandy was a split-off persona image, part of Patsy's private life. The one thing that leaked through is psychology. Sandy was known for it, as was Spark, and Patsy reveals her reading and/or musings on the subject in DOI, several times.

Patsy used JonBenet as angel as a sort of death line instead of life line. Patsy was afraid of death and judgement. She sent JonBenet ahead of her as part of a self serving, self created fantasy that she herself voiced openly; JonBenet is in heaven awaiting her mother's arrival, it won't be long.

Patsy's goal was to live out a fantasy. That fantasy involved her own death, but someone else had to die to make that passage easier or worthwhile.

 

I can't see that it in the book. Part of the fascination of the book was for me the inner distance Sandy had towards Brodie, and how she saw through her. Sure she was fascinated by Brodie, but did this teacher succeed in shaping Sandy's character? Not at all imo. Brodie even seemed to be angry at Sandy because she felt that Sandy did not swallow everything she said hook, line and sinker. Brodie felt uneasy being watched and scrutinized by Sandy, hence her remark that Sandy should get glasses because that stare of hers was not normal.

In terms of independent spirit: that Sandy chose to become a Catholic nun doesn't mean she lacked an independent spirit. Just think of famous nuns like Teresa of Avila or Hildegard of Bingen - very independent spirits.
I was raised by Catholic nuns and also have met quite a few independent spirits among them.
Sandy Stranger is a very complex figure. As opposed to Miss Brodie, Sandy has an enigmatic quality about her, and there are parts in her soul which the narrator does not lay open to the reader.

Why do you think Patsy wished to die?

If Patsy as a Christian was afraid of death and judgement, then why did she then commit a severe crime which is considered a violation of one of the Ten Commandments: "Thou Shalt Not Kill". Wouldn't eternal damnation have been waiting for Patsy then?

Jmpo, but I believe it was exactly the other way round: when Patsy realized what she had done in a rage to her daughter, with the child dying as a result of that tragic attack, she later tried telling herself that it was something which was meant to be, something which was predestinated. She even let this shine through in DOI without openly admitting that it was she who killed JB, when she spoke abut 'unconsciously weaving death' into the Christmas tree by using ribbons the color of Lent.
For if what happened was going to happen anyway, if it was predestinated, then it exonerates the perp, as she becomes a mere instrument. Patsy sought exoneration.

 

I can't do anything with you or for you.

 

That's quite obvious.
There are too many contradictions in your own argumentation imo.

For example, you claim that the Sandy Stranger side of Patsy wanted to kill the Miss Brodie side in Patsy by killing JonBenet.

In your next post you suddenly say that Patsy was afraid of death and judgement which is why she sent JonBenet ahead of her as an angel. Not only does this not mesh with your previous Sandy Stranger explanantion, but you would also have to explain why killing JB and "sending JB her ahead" would help minimize Patsy's fear of judgement. Having committed homicide should maximize it, don't you think so?

But I suppose you have some 'sacrifice' scenario in mind. Human sacrifices were used in ancient times to appease God (or the gods). But imo alleging that Patsy (who was raised a modern Christian), resorted to such an archaic ritual is a mere fantasy of yours.
So Patsy told herself: today is the day I've got to do it, I have to sacrifice her. Arriving late from a party, with packing to do for next day's early morning flight, she had to squeeze in 'sacrificing' JB into her crammed schedule. Yeah, right.

RDIs often comment on how outlandish all those IDI theories are. And indeed they are. But there exist RDI theories which are every bit as outlandish, sometimes even more.

"The Prime of Miss Jane Brodie" is a fascinating book, but to infer that just because Patsy could relate to the book, decades later her psyche used it as some kind of 'instruction manual' in the killing of JonBenet is stretching it beyond all probability. Jmpo.

 

Staring from square one;

Patsy saw JonBenet as an object.

Patsy used the object to participate in a fantasy.

Objects in the real world don't fair well when used in a fantasy.

If they are living objects, they usually end up dead.

Patsy's goal was NOT TO KILL JonBenet.

The goal was to use the object and complete the fantasy.

The object did have to die though.

To accomplish this Patsy enlisted Sandy Stranger and played out a story line using the object.

Patsy then continued to use the object as part of a kidnapping for ransom gone bad.

In Patsy's dissociative mind, she had nothing to do with any of it.

We are all pagans, like it or not.

Devotion does not gaurantee salvation.

 

Most people believe that we have a soul that belongs to the non-temporal realm of the Gods and spirit. And the body inhabits the temporal realm of space, time and matter. When an animal or person is killed in ritual, the belief is the soul is separted from the body and goes off to the spirit realm as a messenger to beseech the intervention of the Gods. Same thing with an inanimate object sacrifice; the smoke rises and disappears. What was once matter becomes spirit and goes off the the Gods as a message.

In this sense, what Patsy did to JonBenet was a sacrifice. It was a self serving fantasy carried out in the infantile retentive dissociative mind of Patsy Ramsey where subjectivity ruled. No outside higher authority was considered or consulted. One does not have to fear judgement when one is playing God.

 

Arriving late from a party, with packing to do for next day's early morning flight, she had to squeeze in 'sacrificing' JB into her crammed schedule. Yeah, right.

There were two schedules going on. One derailed the other.

 

For example, you claim that the Sandy Stranger side of Patsy wanted to kill the Miss Brodie side in Patsy by killing JonBenet.

I'm guessing you think think I am saying that Sandy killing Brodie involved the death of Patsy in some way. It didn't.

 

"The Prime of Miss Jane Brodie" is a fascinating book, but to infer that just because Patsy could relate to the book, decades later her psyche used it as some kind of 'instruction manual' in the killing of JonBenet is stretching it beyond all probability.

That is not what I am saying at all.

The book was misused as a justification.

Same thing goes for The Psalms.

 

Not disturbing the flow of this discussion between rashomon and Paradox, I have once again enjoyed reading the posts. I have mentioned before that I saw the movie with Maggie Smith playing Jean Brodie. and reading over your posts on the characters in the book, rashomon, brought the movie very much to mind.

I remember Sandy sleeping with the art teacher, Teddy Lloyd, but don't remember Lloyd telling her she was ugly. The actress who played Sandy Stranger was actually a very pretty girl, so this doesn't seem to fit Lloyd's reaction in the book. You can see her here: http://www.pxdrive.com/picture/44501.html

Anyone else remember Teddy Lloyd in this scene The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie (1969).

Although I have enjoyed the discussions, Paradox, I personally cannot get into this theory, but I am still very interested in what you have to say. I have an open mind.

I would say rashomon is doing a good job of keeping you busy.

 

Elle, you're not disturbing the flow of the discussion at all - I'm glad you have joined in!
This actress (Pamela Franklin) is a very pretty girl indeed. Very different from the Sandy in the book, to whom Teddy Lloyd said that she was the ugliest thing he had ever seen. This was when Sandy was fifteen, a good time before she became his lover. This was incredibly cruel of Teddy to tell her that:
p. 102 (Penguin book paperback):

"One day", said Teddy Lloyd as he stacked up his sketches before taking Sandy down to tea, "I would like to do all you Brodie girls, one by by one and then all together. He tossed his head to move back the golden lock of his hair from his eye. "it would be nice to do you all together", he said", and see what sort of a group portrait I could make of you."
Sandy thought this might be an attempt to keep the Brodie set together at the expense of the newly glimpsed individuality of its members. She turned on him in her new manner of sudden irritability and said, "We'd look like one big Miss Brodie, I suppose."
He laughed in a delighted way and looked at her more closely, as if for the first time. She looked back just just as closely through her little eyes, with the near-blackmailing insolence of her knowledge. Whereupon he kissed her long and wetly. He said in his hoarse voice, "That'll teach you to look at an artist like that."
She started to run to the door, wiping her mouth dry with the back of her hand, but he caught her with his one arm and said: "There's no need to run away. You're just the ugliest thing I've ever seen in my life." He walked out and left her standing in the studio, and there was nothing to do for her but to follow him downstairs."

I have only read the book, but the film obviously portrayed Sandy as a far prettier girl. In the book, it is also often mentioned how small Sandy's eyes were, and Pamela Franklin actually has big and very beautiful eyes.

Sandy's astuteness again hit it dead center when pointing out to Lloyd the real reason why he wanted to paint the Brodie set. He doesn't even protest but laughs - he knows she is right.

TPOMJB is also a book about awakening sexuality, about the initiation of adolescent girls into the world of sexuality. But the adults in the girls' surroundings behave irresponsibly. An exhibitionist shocks them, the teacher the girls have crush on (Teddy Lloyd) is cheating on his wife with Miss Brodie, - although they only kiss, but that's cheating too -, and Miss Brodie more or less tries to pimp Rose to Teddy Lloyd to act as a proxy for her and also to test her power over Lloyd. Miss Brodie is always very satisfied to hear how much Teddy Lloyd's portraits of Rose resemble her.
Her continually telling the girls about 'dedicating her prime' to them by giving up her own sexuality for their benefit is a bold-faced lie imo. I think her true motive was "I don't need to sleep with Teddy Lloyd myself to have power over him. Even when Rose, the sexually most attractive girl of my set, seduces him, still all he will see in Rose is ME."

I reacted on a very emotional level to the book, the reason being that I'm a teacher myself. Although Miss Brodie is 'only' a fictional character, I vacillated between anger and contempt for her. For her manipulative behavior was just so irresponsible. It was abuse.

 

[Quotes from Paradox in italics]

Staring from square one;

Patsy saw JonBenet as an object.

Agreed.

Patsy used the object to participate in a fantasy.

Agreed.

Objects in the real world don't fair well when used in a fantasy.

Agreed.

If they are living objects, they usually end up dead.

Leaving aside ancient sacrifice rituals, I would disagree on that. In case you speak of human beings, they mostly stay alive. For example, the fewest girls pushed into pageants because their mother wants to act out a fantasy end up dead. I know that this is not what you mean by 'fantasy' in that case, but your word 'fantasy' here is open to interpretation from the point of logic.

Patsy's goal was NOT TO KILL JonBenet.

Agreed. But I think Patsy had no goal at all on that night, since nothing which happened was planned.


The goal was to use the object and complete the fantasy.

Only in Patsy's real-life existence. Imo she used JB as an extension of herself to complete her own fantasy of being forever young and sexually attractive. Both mother and daughter coming dressed-up as Marilyn Monroe in a pageant speaks volumes in that respect.

To accomplish this Patsy enlisted Sandy Stranger and played out a story line using the object.

If only Patsy had had a shred of Sandy Stanger in her psyche, this tragedy would not have occurred. For the Sandy Stranger side in her would have led her to look at all that superficial pageant stuff with a very critical eye. [

Patsy then continued to use the object as part of a kidnapping for ransom gone bad.

She used the object she had tragically killed in a rage attack for that.

In Patsy's dissociative mind, she had nothing to do with any of it.

In a way, yes, for she did try to dissociate herself from the crime. But I believe it never went as far as her having blocked out that it was she who killed JB.

We are all pagans, like it or not.

I'd like to start with basics before going into that. First of all, biologically speaking, we are merely mammals who, in the course of Evolution, have acquired a very highly developed brain. Therefore we are the only animals who can reflect about our existence.

Devotion does not gaurantee salvation.

Nothing is even guaranteed in so-called 'real' life. For example, whatever precautions we may take, nothing can guarantee us that we will wake up alive in our bed the next morning.
How can we hope that devotion can 'guarantee' salvation when we don't even know whether a transcendent power exists?
And what exactly is 'salvation'? Does there exist a common denominator in the different religions as to what exactly 'salvation' means? The gamut ranges from 'Nirvana' to 'eternal life'. I don't want to start a philosophical and religious discussion here, but merely point out to consider the complexity of global terms like 'salvation' before using it in a discussiom. Therefore how can we know what 'salvation' meant for Patsy?

 

And what exactly is 'salvation'?

Ego development; to the point that one can mediate the instincts and impulses by mastering the sensation and intuition (irrational) functions and make decisions by mastering the thinking and feeling (rational) functions, establish and maintain a personality and an identity that can participate with inflation and deflation constructively without being swept away by them. Also, living by self knowledge and shadow acceptance rather than unconscious projection. And relating consciously to the unconscious.

 

To accomplish this Patsy enlisted Sandy Stranger and played out a story line using the object.

To accomplish this Patsy enlisted Brodie's determination of Sandy Stranger and played out a story line using the object.

There, that's better.

 

Objects in the real world don't fair well when used in a fantasy.

Objects in the real world don't fair well when used in a psychotic fantasy.

There, that's better.

 

Therefore how can we know what 'salvation' meant for Patsy?

Maintaining the infantile illusion of superiority.