The Ramsey's own words

rashomon, I did a little searching. I found this:

 

22 THOMAS HANEY: Number 18?
23 TRIP DeMUTH: How about the red
24 item in the upper right-hand corner?
25 PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's a
0266
1 little turtleneck, a little cotton turtleneck,
2 and I had wanted her to wear it to the Whites
3 and she didn't want to wear it.
4 TRIP DeMUTH: How did it end up
5 there?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Don't remember. A
7 crown. Oh, God.
8 THOMAS HANEY: It's about 10:25.
9 Do you want to take about a ten-minute break,
10 how's that sound? We will come back.
11 PATSY RAMSEY: (Crying.) (INAUDIBLE
12 RESPONSE.)13 (Recess taken.)
14 THOMAS HANEY: We are back on tape
15 and it's about 10:59 a.m.
16 And before we go back to the
17 photographs, on the break, there, we were
18 talking about a letter that you said that -- or
19 a card, whatever it was, that McReynolds sent.


FROM AMES: If she got angry, because JB didn't want to wear the red turtleneck and balled it up and threw it on the bathroom counter, then IMO she would have said so.....instead of saying "don't remember"..when asked how it ended up there.

 

Except that Patsy could not admit to ever getting that angry - remember she called the argument a "little, little riff." Everything that pointed to a temper or problem of ANY kind, Patsy avoided like the plague. Her family was perfect and never had problems.

I can see someone like Patsy forcing her daughter to wear the turtleneck to bed, since JonBenet had won the argument earlier. Patsy may have said, "I want you to wear this so we can get up and leave tomorrow right away," and insisted, and since JonBenet might have been tired, she may not have had the fight left in her. Or, alternatively, JonBenet may have put her foot down again and said "NO!" and Patsy then totally lost her patience and snapped.

Just a few thoughts. I don't think Patsy told HERSELF the truth very much - she seems to have lived her life in a pretty thick fog of denial.

 

She didn't have to say..."well I angrily threw it on the bathroom counter"...she could have just said..."I put it there when JB refused to wear it", instead of "don't know". I just posted on WBS that Patsy and JB could have worked out a compromise...Patsy could have said..."Well, since you didn't want to wear the matching turtleneck to the party, why don't you wear it for our trip tomorrow morning....I can wear the same outfit, and we can match, we can put it on you now...and it could save us time in the morning". And JB agreed. Of course, it could have been like you said...Patsy forced her into wearing it...who knows. All that I do know is...this case drives me :nuts: :nuts: :nuts: !!!

 

Heymom and Ames: both your scenarios sound very convincing and would clear up a lot regarding the 'red turtleneck' issue.
They would explain why Patsy avoided discussing this garment at all costs in the interview, offering her lame "Don't remember". I think she did remember very well but did not want to elaborate because the turtleneck itself was connected to the tragic events on that night.

 

Compromise??? Patsy??? Never! When it came to JonBenet, it was Patsy's way or the highway. If she could have said those words, JonBenet might not have died that Christmas night...

 

Yeah, that turtleneck and the dictionary pointing to "incest" are 2 things I would like to have cleared up. I want to know what part that red shirt played, and I want to know who folded the dictionary page to point to the word "incest." I believe that was supposed to be a clue for someone, but I don't know who left that clue.

 

Analyzing this, a sensible mother wouldn't disturb a sleeping child other than to remove her coat, and let her sleep, but on the other hand with a bedwetter, attention would need to be given to this chore of putting the child in protective underwear like pullups or special diapers. The pullups were half hanging out the cupboard. This was one smart intruder, he knew where to go to find them, plus her longjohns (?). How considerate of him?

Yes, rashamon, Patsy could have lied about everything as you stated above. She was a master of the craft when it came to Psychology.

 

Why was Patsy Ramsey so careful to mention the red jumpsuit to the cops in her interview?

When giving her account of what she did when she got up at 5:30 am. Patsy mentions she stopped briefly in the laundry. This is the children's laundry on the same floor as their rooms, she didn't have to mention the red jumpsuit at all (?).


"Police Files" PB -page 62
" And I remember the ironing board being up, I think, and I fussed around with this little red jumpsuit of JonBenét's 'cause it had some spots on it.

 

However she said it..compromised or demanded....JB went to bed in that red turtleneck, and IMO she wet the bed that night...got the turtleneck wet too. Patsy angrily tried to yank it off of her (yanking off a turtle neck would not be an easy task)..and that, I believe is when the rage accident happened. I think that as she was trying to YANK it off of JB, in the process...she slung JB into the side of the toilet or tub. She could have been tugging at it..violently...and had the arms almost off (insdie out)...and JB's head still stuck in the turtleneck collar. Almost like putting an egg into a sock and then swinging it at a hard, rounded surface....just for exampe, and to give you a mental picture of what I am talking about.

 

I think thats exactly why she didn't want to talk about it. Also, if you and your child had an argument over what she was going to wear to a party...and then the next morning the child turned up dead, God forbid. You would remember EVERY single detail about that argument...and about the garment that CAUSED the argument. In other words...if you were innocent of your child's murder....and the garment (that caused the last argument that you would ever have with your daughter) was found on the bathroom counter...I don't believe that you would say..."don't remember" when asked how it got there. IMO...it would be etched in your memory, of exactly how it got there....along with regret...for as long as you lived. This...imo...is why she had her little "crying spell"....the woman was STALLING. She was probably thinking while she turned on the waterworks...."Oh my God, what am I going to say? I can't tell him the TRUTH".

 

I believe that she mentions this...to confuse the two. The RED turtleneck and the RED jumpsuit. It worked, because there are posters that actually think that the RED JUMPSUIT was SOAKING in the bathroom SINK....when actually it was the RED TURTLENECK that was BALLED UP ON the bathroom COUNTER. Patsy was pretty doggone smart...when it came to confusing authorities. (In Boulder though, it didn't seem to be all that hard).

 

Patsy said she got up at 5:30, I assume she did what most people do first thing when they get up, then got dressed & put on her makeup, went down to the second floor and fiddled around with the red top, went down to the first floor, found the note, scanned it, ran back up stairs, looked in JonBenet's room, yelled for John, he checked on Burke, they went back down stairs, he read the note, then she made the phone call. She place the call at 5:52. That's only 22 minutes.

Quotes are from the Police Files - things just don't add up do they?

Little

 

EXCELLENT detective work, Little!!!! NOPE...things do not add up. I smell a rat...and its name is...Patsy. According to her...it would have had to take her at the most 40 minutes.

 

Great sleuthing, Little!!! :sleuth:

 

But in that case, wouldn't Patsy have won the initial argument, making JonBenet wear the red turtleneck to the Whites' instead of the white shirt which her daughter wanted?

 

Not necessarily. I think Patsy's psychological age was stuck at a point where in some ways, she acted more like JonBenet's older sister than her mother. So, if JonBenet threw a temper tantrum, Patsy might give in at that point, but scheme to get the power back later, as a sibling might do. If she saw that JonBenet was a little more vulnerable, perhaps because of being sleepy, tired, etc., she might re-assert her demand for JonBenet to wear the look-alike shirt. It was a power struggle because unlike Patsy herself, JonBenet had a personality and didn't want to be consumed by her mother's demands.

You see, even this mother-daughter clothing thing just creeps me out. I mean, on one hand, you can see it as cute, and on the other hand, it seems as if Patsy wants to be JonBenet's TWIN more than she wants to be her mother. The whole dynamic is twisted and sick. And this was held up to be such a perfect family!

 

Yes, a power struggle would explain it.
"JonBenet may have won the last argument, but I'll win this time" - maybe that was the inner dialogue going on in Patsy's immature mind.
And that mother-daughter thing is creepy indeed because for Patsy, it obviously was far more than just a cute thing to do. For they both even came dressed up as Marilyn Monroe at JonBenet's last pageant. Just think about that: dolling up her child like MM, the eternal sex symbol, and then going on stage together with her as her "twin". Patsy had boundary issues, no question about it imo.

 

She sure did a good job of confusing the cops on the issue of the red top, Little, while Tom Haney concentrated on what brands of makeup she wore (?). Maybe he was keen to try these brands for himself (?).

Like everything else related to this case, Patsy got away with it.

Thanks for bringing this red top up again, Little, and drawing attention to Patsy's lies on her timeline.

 

:floor: LOL...yeah maybe. I have often wondered why he spent almost a whole page of her interview, asking about makeup brands. I have wondered if Haney asked her about the brands, because the investigators believed that she never went to bed that night, therefore NOT having to put on makeup the next morning. (She had the same makeup on as she wore to the Whites, imo). Maybe, they found some kleenexes or something with makeup on them in the trash..and maybe there was some way to find out how long they had been there, with some sort of testing. I am just guessing here, of course.