To Understand Patsy We Must Understand Kiddie Pageants

One more picture with the sweater and bed and then I won't do any more.
I think the bed quilt is open and the top edge of it is folded over the sweater. Some of the quilt is covered by the Beauty and the Beast pillow (or whatever it is) which is on top of the quilt.
The edges of the quilt are outlined in the picture in blue (including a part that is covered by Beauty and the Beast). The pillow (or whatever it is) with Beauty and the Beast on it is on top of the quilt. I outlined the pillow in fuschia.
The sweater is outlined in green. I think the black and white striped area is the neckline, the left sleeve is visible off the side of the bed toward the head of the bed. I made a green line down what looks like the middle of the sweater and the hem of the sweater is down by the foot of the bed.

On the bedpost that is most visible, there is a ring of something around it (maybe a wreath of artificial flowers?). I outlined that in red and I think the "twin" to that is in the shadows on the other side around the other bedpost (also outlined in red).

There's not enough light to see what the black stuff is on the top of the trunk, but my guess is that it is some articles of dark clothing, probably including the black velvet jeans and vest that JB wore to the Whites according to the Bonita papers: "Like most independently thinking six-year-olds, JonBenet had other ideas about her evening attire. She insisted on wearing her black velvet jeans and matching black velvet best with a whit crew-neck sweater with a sequin star on the front – an outfit she had helped pick out at a local Gap store."

 

I did notice all of the above, Sue.

I Came across Patsy's deposition through Google, although I believe it's also on this forum, but I don't have time to start searching right this minute, but this will throw some light on this famous red and black jacket we keep hearing about.

NB There are a few comments from Jameson at the end of this, but as I stated before I copied this through a Google Search; therefore feel justified in posting it, because its information we are looking for and Patsy's deposition is already on the net.

http://www.webbsleuths.com/dcf/DCForumID107/62.html



<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#eeeeee><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=left width="50%" rowSpan=2>Conferences Deposition discussion Topic #62



jameson
Charter Member
13618 posts


</TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap align=right width="50%">Nov-06-03, 12:33 PM (EST)</TD></TR><TR bgColor=#eeeeee><TD align=right> </TD></TR><TR bgColor=#ffffff><TD width="100%" colSpan=2>"Patsy in Atlanta 9 - the jacket"



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2 Q. Did you, when you directed Mr.
3 Matthews where to look for the bear, that
4 is, in the box of things from JonBenet, did
5 you know that that bear had been taken out
6 of the house with your other property? I
7 suppose what I am getting at is, had you
8 been able to go through all of the things
9 that were removed from the Boulder house --
10 A. No.
11 Q. -- prior to December of '98?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you go through any of the
14 property at all, if you recall?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You were shown, I believe,
17 photographs that were taken -- and this is
18 during your '98 interview -- photographs that
19 were taken at the White's house Christmas
20 night at dinner. In that you are wearing a
21 red coat, kind of a wool, wool jacket. Do
22 you recall seeing that?
23 A. It is kind of a black and red
24 and gray fleece.
25 Q. Cut more like a blazer than --

154
1 A. Like a peacoat.
2 MR. WOOD: Well, the picture is
3 the picture, isn't it?
4 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Right, like a
5 peacoat. I just want to make sure we are
6 talking about the same thing. Do you
7 remember that jacket?
8 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
9 Q. I would like you to give us a
10 little background on that coat, and again I
11 am not going to hold you to days of the
12 week, but do you recall, first of all, where
13 you purchased it?
14 A. Well, Priscilla had had one like
15 it that I admired. And she told me, I
16 believe she told me she got hers at EMS.
17 So I went there to look. And they didn't
18 have one or I didn't want to get one exactly
19 like hers. So I think I got that one at
20 Marshals in Boulder.
21 Q. Do you recall what year you
22 purchased it?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Let's -- I can understand that.
25 Now I am going to -- we will take a time

155
1 frame. Was it a fairly, by your
2 recollection, was it a fairly recent purchase
3 that you had or was this a coat you'd had
4 for some period of time prior -- and, of
5 course, I am using it as the date of
6 JonBenet's murder.
7 A. Well, I can't remember. I am
8 sure I bought it in -- as it was getting
9 colder. So it was either probably fall of
10 '96 or '95.
11 Q. That, the coat that you wore the
12 night to the Whites, was it something that
13 was -- I mean, the primary color is red.
14 MR. WOOD: Well, don't fight over
15 -- excuse me, Patsy. Don't you have a
16 picture?
17 MR. LEVIN: I don't have a
18 picture with me.
19 MR. WOOD: Why characterize it.
20 It is what it is.
21 THE WITNESS: There is a picture.
22 MR. WOOD: It is in the picture.
23 Let's look at that.
24 MR. LEVIN: Just to expedite
25 things, because I am not fighting over the

156
1 color, what I want to know is --
2 MR. WOOD: I think she said it
3 was red and black and gray.
4 THE WITNESS: A red and black and
5 gray check.
6 Q. (By Mr. Levin) What I am, what
7 I am interested in is, I am certainly not
8 going to debate concentration of colors. It
9 is irrelevant. What I am interested in, is
10 it something that you wore exclusively during
11 the Christmas season or is this a coat that
12 you wore anytime it was appropriate for the
13 weather?
14 A. Anytime it was appropriate.
15 Q. So it is not like a special
16 Christmassy type, type of Christmas sweater,
17 I know you talked about Christmas?
18 A. (Witness shook head negatively).
19 MR. WOOD: Your answer is not,
20 because you are nodding your head.
21 THE WITNESS: No, it is not.
22 MR. WOOD: So the record is
23 clear.
24 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) We were
25 provided that coat by, I believe, Ellis



157
1 Armistead.
2 MR. TRUJILLO: Correct.
3 Q. (By Mr. Levin) What I would like
4 you to help us with is to understand how the
5 coat got from you to Ellis, if you know.
6 A. The -- I think you all requested
7 it.
8 Q. That is correct.
9 A. So I went to my closet, dug it
10 out, put it in a box, and sent it to Ellis.
11 Q. Was that coat something that was
12 taken -- you didn't wear that coat out of
13 the house when the police took you out of
14 the house the afternoon of the 26th. Do you
15 recall?
16 A. No, I don't think I did.
17 Q. Do you know how you came into
18 possession? Was that something that came
19 through Pam when she picked up some clothes
20 for you or was that something that was boxed
21 up and shipped when the house was packed?
22 MR. WOOD: Just so I am clear,
23 when was the request made?
24 MR. TRUJILLO: It was received
25 January of '98. So it was --

158
1 MR. WOOD: Are we talking about
2 sometime between December of '96, and then
3 you all asked for it when, a year later?
4 MR. TRUJILLO: I don't have the
5 exact date.
6 THE WITNESS: It was a long time
7 later. We were in the house in Atlanta when
8 the request was made.
9 CHIEF BECKNER: December of '97.
10 MR. WOOD: So a year later you
11 all asked for the clothes, and they produced
12 it in January of '98?
13 MR. TRUJILLO: Yes.
14 MR. WOOD: Okay. Does that help
15 just put it in the time context of when it
16 might have been?
17 MR. LEVIN: And because everyone
18 needs a computer whiz, we have Mr. Kane.
19 We're talking about that coat.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 CHIEF BECKNER: Is that a, just
22 for clarification, is that a coat or a
23 sweater?
24 THE WITNESS: It is kind of a
25 little jacket, coat.

159
1 CHIEF BECKNER: We called it a
2 sweater in the past.
3 THE WITNESS: It is a jacket.
4 CHIEF BECKNER: Ellis Armistead
5 called it a sweater in his letter to us.
6 So I just want to clarify we are talking
7 about the right piece of clothing.
8 THE WITNESS: Well, we are
9 talking about that. You can call it
10 whatever you want. It is kind of a jacket
11 more.
12 MR. WOOD: I'd go with jacket.
13 THE WITNESS: I mean, I, you
14 know, it is something you put on to go
15 outside in the cold.
16 MR. WOOD: All right. Now, I
17 had to interrupted you to try to figure out
18 if we can put it into context of time.
19 Your question was?
20 THE WITNESS: You want to know
21 did it come to --
22 MR. WOOD: Let's let him figure
23 out what it was. Hold on a second. He
24 asked, was that something that came through
25 Pam when she picked up some clothes, which I

160
1 am taking to be back early right after
2 the --
3 MR. LEVIN: I'm talking about,
4 yes.
5 MR. WOOD: Pam picked up some
6 clothes right after.
7 MR. LEVIN: Saturday the 28th of
8 December, 199 -
9 MR. WOOD: Right. Was that
10 something that was boxed up and shipped when
11 the house was packed? Does that help you?
12 Do you know the answer?
13 THE WITNESS: No.
14 MR. WOOD: If so, tell him.
15 Q. (By Mr. Levin) When the request
16 came to you, though, from, either I suppose
17 your lawyers, about turning that jacket over,
18 it was, if I understand you correctly,
19 hanging in your closet?
20 A. Uh-huh (affirmative), in Atlanta,
21 yes.
22 Q. And that would be, the request is
23 made approximately a year after your daughter
24 is murdered. Is it something that was just
25 hanging in your closet or something that you

161
1 continued to wear if you recall during the
2 one-year period or any portion thereof?
3 A. I don't remember.
4 Q. I will take -- tell me if this
5 is correct. I am taking that as saying you
6 may have worn it, but some point in time
7 between the murder of JonBenet and when you
8 turned it over, you may not have; you have
9 no independent recollection?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Did you, if you recall, did you
12 clean it at any time -- I believe it is
13 wool, primarily wool -- dry-clean it from
14 when you -- which may sound like a silly
15 question, but I will put it in a larger
16 context. The clothing that came boxed, did
17 you -- those items that you kept, continued
18 to use or at least have available, did you
19 clean them all before you put them away,
20 take them all to the cleaners?
21 MR. WOOD: I am going to ask you
22 to go back and redo that one because that
23 one kind of went in about three different
24 directions, Bruce.
25 MR. LEVIN: Okay.

162
1 MR. WOOD: You started off asking
2 about whether she had this jacket cleaned and
3 then you started talking about clothes that
4 were boxed up. And I don't know if she
5 knows whether this one was boxed up or not.
6 MR. LEVIN: Right. And I
7 understand that.
8 Q. (By Mr. Levin) So what I am
9 trying to do is just to, because I
10 understand you can't identify a particular,
11 whether it was this particular item.
12 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
13 Q. Let's start with the clothes that
14 were boxed up. The clothes that were boxed
15 up that you then reintegrated into your
16 wardrobe, did you clean all of those before
17 you did that?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Do you have any recollection as
20 to this particular coat, whether or not you
21 ever cleaned it before giving it to Mr.
22 Armistead?
23 A. No.
24 Q. It is a coat that you would
25 dry-clean, though?

163
1 A. I am not so sure about that. I
2 think, I think it is able to be thrown in
3 the washing machine.
4 MR. KANE: I believe it was made
5 of acrylic, if that helps.
6 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
7 MR. WOOD: You all gotta decide,
8 he says wool, you say acrylic.
9 MR. LEVIN: It was acrylic.
10 MR. WOOD: It ought to say
11 dry-cleaning only on it, if it is, or if it
12 doesn't, sometimes it'll get washed. Do you
13 know for a fact, that is the key, do you
14 know whether you dry cleaned it or washed it
15 as you sit here today, Patsy?
16 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Do you know if
18 Mr. Armistead did before he sent it to us?
19 THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
20 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I will take that
21 as a statement that, once you turned the
22 coat over or may have boxed it up and
23 shipped it to Mr. Armistead, that your
24 personal knowledge of what happens to it is
25 none?

164
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. It is not something that you and
3 he ever discussed during the course of maybe
4 a briefing or something like that?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Was it a jacket that you wore
7 around the house? I know this is an indoor
8 picture. Did you do that commonly?
9 A. Sometimes, if it was particularly
10 chilly.
11 Q. Do you recall whether or not you
12 wore that on either the 23rd of December
13 1996, the 24th, or the 20-- well, we know
14 you wore it on the 25th. The 23rd or the
15 24th?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Was it something that you would
18 frequently wear inside the house?
19 A. Sometimes I would, but what is
20 frequently? You know, I don't --
21 Q. Frequently would be three or four
22 times -- I mean, was it, if you are chilly,
23 was this the item that you always threw on?
24 That is what I am getting at.
25 A. Not necessarily, no.

165
1 Q. You talked about, in your '98
2 interview, that you, on the 24th, that you
3 were in the basement and you were wrapping
4 presents. Do you know, when you were doing
5 that, whether or not you had on that coat?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. You have told us that you painted
8 as a hobby. Would you wear this coat to
9 paint?
10 A. No.
11 MR. LEVIN: Mitch?
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Nothing about the
13 coat.

Jameson's comments:

Patsy had had the jacket for some time - she wore it in and out of the house, though not when she was actually painting.

I have no problem understanding how some fibers from her coat could end up in her paint tote. Fibers drop off clothes and can be found anywhere. I am far more interested in the unmatched fibers found at the scene. Again, this took a LONG time - this line of questioning. Surely the cops knew when they asked for the jacket, how they got it. I understand this is leading up to something, but when I think of what they could have accomplished if they brainstormed instead of tried to corner - - it is so sad.



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This child is WAY too young to be in a pageant, she can't do anything for herself, her mother is walking her through the entire thing; and these mothers have the NERVE to say their kids "want" to do this? How about, they've been doing it for as long as they can remember, way before they could speak, so how could they protest??


And have a look at these mothers with their pageant babies, what floors me is that theres nothing spectacular about either of them, they're average women, who actually appear to be lined up in order of their age; the older lady on the end knows how to 'wow' those judges I guess....

 

I agree JIC. How can they protest when they are so young?

 

Oh good grief! What is wrong with the mother of this little baby JIC?

Should there be another photo here? You're talking about taking a "look at these mothers with their babies" the url is missing (?).

 

Here's the link Ella, if you can't click on it, copy and past it into your browser.
http://berrienforestry.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/babycourt.jpg

Tez, It's so sad. With the stage mom's starting them younger and younger, these poor babies don't have a chance to be unique or develop their own interests.

What bothers me the most about these photos is the fact that these babies are too young to do anything spectacular, so what exactly are they being judged on?

I think pageants, especially ones like this, are a complete rip-off. The amount of money poured in by all those 'doting' parents would be more than triple what it would cost for all those cheap tiara's and sashes; it's a scam and they're targeting women and men who are obsessed with their child winning.

 

This is a baby with hair extensions, the person who did this needs help as does her mother.


All of these kids are wearing fake hair, extensions, wiglets, and falls, and DO ANY OF THEM LOOK HAPPY? Their mothers just couldn't wait for them to grow up, check out the kid who's dressed as a bride, hmmm... that's not too weird eh?





http://www.sydniesfashionfalls.com/hair1.html

 

Pageant photo's are allowed to be retouched?

A Perfect You: Photo Retouching
http://www.vvm.com/~kimberly/touchups/info1.htm
I think this is a great idea for glamour shots but what are these kids doing on that page?

Does anyone else think that this is a pretty deceptive way to raise a child? Displaying photo's of them looking "perfect" everywhere in their homes and giving them to family and friends to do the same...

Every woman here who's ever worn makeup habitally for periods in their life knows that feeling when she walks outside without makeup on, imagine a child as young as JonBenet getting those feelings; all because he mother was never good enough to go 'all the way' with showbiz. Is it fair?

 

These people should have dolls, not children.
That is a sick thing to do to a living creature.

 

Oh! I saw the tripod logo in your other post JIC, and the url was in teeny weeny print. I was looking for a regular highlighted one. I could have copied and pasted that one. Sorry!

Thank you! I saw the three mothers. Oh, this is sickening.
Between these babies and the doll clones in the other post, I feel so sorry for what these little girls have to go through, with makeup and hair pieces. Trouble is they won't know any better with this being thrust upon them at so young an age.

I think these pageant procedures should come under "cruelty to young children," and I'm serious.

 

Nedra called JonBenet, "Patsy's doll baby" And bought American Girl dolls presumably for herself as she bought the My Twinn doll for JonBenet to start her own collection from that line of dolls. In DOI Patsy said that JonBenet didn't like the My Twinn. Patsy was obviously offended that JonBenet didn't like the My Twinn nearly as much as she liked the doll she got the same year as the pink Barbie Corvette.

 

I agree, but to get any of the mothers who are doing this to stop, it would take a lot of work because they are all very careful about what they say and do in public, they all know how important it is to keep up with the image they've created. :borgsmile

It reminds me a lot of the image the Ramsey's created, which was shattered the night their child was murdered in the basement of their home and they refused to assist with the investigation because they police didn't clear them as suspects because of their wealth.

 

"Beauty pageants are one of the fastest growing businesses in America grossing over 5 billion dollars." (Coleman, Phyllis)

http://www.minorcon.org/pageants.html

"Individual beauty pageants set their own guidelines for their participants, since they are exempt from the federal child labor laws (FairLabor standards Act, 1938). Child pageant contestants are not considered to be "working" children although they receive money and prizes for their performances and practice for hours per week to achieve those goals."

"According to the Attorney General of the Department of Justice in California, "there is no law that prescribes how a pageant must be managed, the rules are set by each contest promoter." Pageants are usually operated by for-profit organizations that produce a local, state or national contest that appeal to many age groups for different reasons."

"William Pinsof, a clinical psychologist and president of the Family Institute at Northwestern University said, " Being a little Barbie doll says your body has to be a certain way and your hair has to be a certain way. In girls particularly, this can unleash a whole complex of destructive self-experiences that can lead to eating disorders and all kinds of body distortions in terms of body image." Traveling, stress and competition are everyday aspects of an adult's life, an average day of an adult requires at least these three aspects to make it to lunch hour, but at the age of eight, stress about body ideals, modeling, and trophies should not come into existence. Since there are no set rules concerning promoters, organizers and participants, pageants are neglected by laws governing them. Organizers want to earn money and are not concerned with the need to protect their participants, and they don't."

 

What can I say JIC? I'm mentally starting a Vigilante Group:viking:against pageants. You're the youngest one around here, I think (?). Go for it! BUT, you'll have to emigrate to the U.S.A.

 

Good lord

They all look like dolls. They look plastic. Poor little kids. Doesn't anyone give these mothers a heads up on how unnatural and obsessive this is?

 

Are we jumping to conclusions?

I couldn't agree more with Voyager. My family has been involved with modeling agencies for years and I see nothing abnormal about it. I really don't think people realize how big the industry is until they get involved with it. Yes, I have met my fair share of pushy mothers and unhappy kids, but that isn't anything new and its not restricted to modeling and pageantry industries. I have been involved in several sports throughout elementary and high school and I saw the same pushy mothers and unhappy kids that I saw in the modeling industry. And that is just thing... Pageantry and modeling provides a sport for young girls and even young boys to compete in. It can also provide future careers and extra spending money. As a teen I modeled for several clothing catalogs where I was able to not only make money but get free clothes. Some agencies allow you to keep whatever you model. Free clothes and check sure beat the heck out of working in the fast food industry.

I do understand that there are some things going on within pageants that most of you disagree with. In fact there are some things that disturb me. I don't agree with children under the age of 13 prancing around on the stage in a two piece... I mean that is like showing a red flag to bull when it comes to attracting pedophiles. However, I don't see anything wrong with putting on pretty dresses and makeup. Little girls love to play with and put on makeup. I couldn't keep my little sisters out of mine when I was a teen. LOL They still steal and or "borrow" it.

I just hope that everyone will come to understand that there are also a lot of good things that come out of modeling and pageantry. A lot of the celebrities we enjoy watching on TV started out in the modeling industry. Was that JonBenent's dream? Did she enjoy the pageant's.... That I can't tell you, but I do think that maybe we are jumping to conclusions. Who are we to say that JonBenet didn't like participating in pageants and going to photo shoots? Yes, she may have complained about it every once in a while. There were times when I hated playing soccer. I mean after sprinting 4 miles around the track before practice even started was no fun and I hated every minute of it. I mean I would go home and just pass out wondering why I was putting myself through all of that. But the bottom line was that I just loved to play the game. Yeah, there were some things (like running 4 miles + everyday) that I hated, but that didn't mean that I hated or disliked playing the game of soccer. JonBenet may not have liked certain tasks she had to perform to prepare herself for pageants but that doesn't mean she disliked performing.