Understanding the Ramsey note

Voyager

Voyager you crack me up. Now THAT'S a response I can appreciate.

:loser:

 

Reason For Note

"THAT's what makes this case special, the existence of the note and that's what keeps John and Patsy under that umbrella, the fact that the note makes NO SENSE unless we see it as insider staging."

I agree with you DocG, and some people should get off your back. If one assumes that either John or Patsy wrote the note without the other knowing, it makes way more sense to think John penned the note. This combined with the fact that he carried JBR up from the basement makes him look very bad.

However no matter who wrote the note, the only reason for it being written is an attempt to keep the house from being searched. Whoever it was could not move the body from the house and time was running out before the expected trip. John or Patsy are #1 and #2 for sure but the longshot intruder could of wanted to buy some time to.

 

A few questions

DocG,

I am of the opinion that Patsy acted alone in the death of JonBenet Christmas night. However, I am still studying this case for other possiblities. If I understand your theory, you propose that some time before Patsy awoke at 5:30 on December 26th, John murdered JonBenet and placed her body in the basement, wrapped in her favorite blanket.

I have a few questions about your theory.

Quoting from your 'Part 2' and 'Part 3' posts, you wrote -

Since John's plan involved removing the body from the house, according to this theory, why did John place JonBenet's body in the basement instead of putting her in a car trunk? After his family was awake and knew JonBenet was missing, wasn't John running the risk of being seen by Patsy or Burke moving the body from the basement to one of the cars in the garage?

Why do you think he was unable to convince Patsy not to call 911? If Patsy truly hadn't read the dire threats in the note before she called 911, it seems reasonable that John would have pointed out to Patsy that the ransom note spells out if the police were contacted, JonBenet "dies."

Are you saying that John could not have disposed of the body until sometime after he got the call which was to come between 8 and 10 AM on December 27th from... Who(?)

So, as I understand your logic, John's plan was to keep JonBenet's kidnapping quiet from the police for at least 24 hours, keep a distraught mother from going nuts over her daughter's disappearance and, sometime during this 24 hours when Patsy knows her daughter is missing, move the body from the basement to the garage hoping she wouldn't see him? Or did John think that Patsy and Burke would sleep so soundly the night of December 26th, believing someone had been in the house the night before and kidnapped JonBenet, that he could safely move the body from the basement then?

-Catfish

 

I'll go along with your thoughts here, Zman.

I personally think the first thing on a policeman's list - in a house the size of the Ramsey's, would have been, to search it first. It was Christmas time, and it's not unusual for parents to find their children up in the wee hours of the morning, playing with toys.

The fact John Ramsey was the one who found JonBenét in itself is suspicious, because no one else, bar Fleet White had the sense to open the wooden latch and search the windowless room/wine cellar. Taking it for granted that the lock on the top of the door told them no one could be in there ... forgetting that a young child could have been locked in there!

Steve Thomas "JonBenét (page 170 PB) states that a very distraught Patrol Officer Rick French felt he had been misled by John and Patsy Ramsey. He had that "gut feeling" early on the morning of the 26 December, that the parents had been involved in the little girl's disappearance.

"Why couldn't I have found her?" he asked Steve on a private moment. "If only I had looked in there, you would have had a pristine crime scene and could solve this."

Officer French was inconsolable. "I'm the f****ng cop! I should have found her."

How I wish you had found her Officer French. for what it's worth, I definitely think you were misled by John and Patsy Ramsey without a doubt. The Ramseys were a good team. The ex Miss West Virginia. Magna Cum Laude journalist and her steel headed business man husband John Ramsey, were up the whole night planning and scheming like a couple of large spiders spinning their "Ramsey Web."

The other police officer was Sergeant Reichenbach, Steve Thomas ( page 18-20 PB). Reichenbach arrives shortly after French, and is told by him that
it looks as if there may be a kidnapping, but something isn't right.
Reichenbach finds no evidence of forced entry during a walk through the house. He doesn't see any signs of shoe impressions outside in the dusty snow.

Walking through the sprawling basement he comes across a white door with a block of wood that pivots on a screw. He meets with resistance as he tries to open the door, and stops. This is the same door Linda Hoffman Hugh struggled with when going in for the Christmas trees. Reichenbach returns upstairs.

A third person managed to open the door with the wooden latch. Fleet White.and he saw "nothing!"

Yes Officer French and Sergeant Reichenbach, you were both stymied by crafty and conniving people, John and Patsy Ramsey.

It seems there must have been quite a few fingerprints on the wooden latch.
John Ramsey himself found the body. How convenient for him. I wonder just how many of his prints were found. Of course, if the flashlight was wiped clean, I'm sure the Ramseys would have wiped this too (?). Would there just be one set of John's prints on there from opening the door and finding her after 1:00 pm. or previous prints of his present?

Fleet White's and Reichenbach's must have been found too (?)..

 

zman

"However no matter who wrote the note, the only reason for it being written is an attempt to keep the house from being searched. Whoever it was could not move the body from the house and time was running out before the expected trip. John or Patsy are #1 and #2 for sure but the longshot intruder could of wanted to buy some time to."

Good thinking, Z. I don't think that was the only reason, but it most likely was one of them. Let's dispose of the "longshot intruder" first. If you've intruded into a house where you don't belong and killed someone, you might want to buy some time in case the others wake up and find the body. The longer you can keep them from calling the cops the better, so yes you might want to write a phoney ransom note. But NOT the Ramsey note, no way. You want out as soon as possible. So you write: "Dear Mr. Ramsey, we have your daughter and are holding her for ransom. If you call the police she dies. Stand by the phone, we'll be calling you soon." You do NOT write a 2 1/2 page note with every single i dotted and t crossed, carefully observing the margins, filled with instructions that could just as well have been conveyed over the phone. Writing such a note does NOT buy time, it TAKES time.

Now let's assume the note was written in an attempt to keep the house from being searched by the police. That makes no sense at all to me. If you don't want the police to search the house you don't call and invite them over in the first place. Once they're IN the house, that's it, you've forever lost your opportunity to get rid of the body.

And time wasn't running out at all. If the two of them are in it together there's nothing simpler than cancelling their trip. Just tell everyone concerned (including Burke) the "truth": "JonBenet's been kidnapped, we're trying to deal with the kidnappers and are afraid to call the police so please tell no one about this." Now they'd have all the time in the world.

No, there is only ONE person the writer needed to fear initially and that person was: Patsy Ramsey. I think one important purpose of the note was to discourage Patsy from turning the house upside down looking for JonBenet. Another was to frighten her into NOT calling the police. But that part of the plan didn't work. She DID make the call, in spite of the threats. Who knows why? If it were me I'd have wanted to deal with the kidnappers and I'd have been afraid to call the cops.

 

Catfish

Catfish:
"Since John's plan involved removing the body from the house, according to this theory, why did John place JonBenet's body in the basement instead of putting her in a car trunk? After his family was awake and knew JonBenet was missing, wasn't John running the risk of being seen by Patsy or Burke moving the body from the basement to one of the cars in the garage?"

That's an excellent question. I think John's plan could well have been to get Patsy and Burke out of the house, have them stay with friends. Which may have been the real reason why the friends were called over that AM. The note anoints JOHN as THE person elected to deal with the kidnappers, it is up to HIM. He could insist that Patsy and Burke leave for their own safety, while he stays behind to deal with the kidnappers as per the demands in the note. As far as the car trunk vs. the basement room, that's a bit tougher to puzzle out. Maybe he was afraid Patsy might want to use one of the cars that day, to drive her and Burke to a friend, or run some other errands. He would probably have wanted to wait for dark to dump the body, so the basement might have seemed like the safest place to store it until then, especially if he were planning on getting the others out of the house as soon as possible.

"Why do you think he was unable to convince Patsy not to call 911? If Patsy truly hadn't read the dire threats in the note before she called 911, it seems reasonable that John would have pointed out to Patsy that the ransom note spells out if the police were contacted, JonBenet "dies.""

I think that's exactly what he must have done. And I admit it's hard to understand why she wouldn't have gone along with that. But it's ALSO hard to understand why John would have wanted her to call the police in the face of such threats and why she'd have agreed to THAT -- and WITH NO DISCUSSION as they've claimed. It's also hard to understand why John wouldn't have wanted to make that call himself -- and be sure to explain the nature of the threats and the need for stealth so the cops wouldn't be observed entering the house. And if they are in it together it's IMPOSSIBLE to understand why they'd want to call the cops with the body still in the house. So when you look at all the unlikely things, Patsy making the call against John's wishes doesn't seem all that strange, compared to the extreme unlikelihood of the story they've given out. My own feeling is that Patsy might have been extremely frightened at that moment, frightened the kidnapper might still be in the house, possibly frightened of John. I think she could have made the call more out of concern for her own personal safety at that moment than the well being of her daughter. If THAT had been the paramount concern, and both are innocent, then I think they'd both have cooperated with the kidnappers and NOT called the police at all.

"Are you saying that John could not have disposed of the body until sometime after he got the call which was to come between 8 and 10 AM on December 27th from... Who(?)"

Another excellent point! Your answer can be found in the note itself, which tells us a great deal about the nature of John's plan (as I see it). It says the call will come "Tomorrow" (the 27th, yes) between 8 and 10AM. BUT it adds that if they observe John getting the money early they might call him early. That's one of the strangest lines in the note because it's hard to understand why the "kidnappers" would want to bother with such details. But if John wrote the note that line gives him LOTS of leeway to arrange for the call to come whenever it's most convenient for him. If all had gone according to plan and the police had NOT been called, John could have gotten Patsy and Burke out of the house and then gone over to the bank to collect the cash. From there he could have gone to the nearest phone booth and called either 1. his home phone, leaving a blank message on the answering machine; or 2. his cell phone. If option 1, he could have simply erased the "message" when he got home. If option 2, he could have answered his cell phone when it rang and then just done nothing for two or three minutes and then hung up. In either case there would be a record of a call to either his home or his cell, from that phone booth, near where the "kidnappers" had been monitoring him getting the ransom money from the bank. The record would tell the authorities that a call had been made, but NOT the content of that call. So John could easily have claimed the call was from the "kidnappers." Pretty neat, eh?

 

elle1

Elle, you keep mentioning John AND Patsy. And yes that's how most of us have come to think of them, for better or worse, guilty or innocent, they are habitually considered in tandem. But WHY? Isn't that just a kind of habit that's been developed over the years, to consider "the Ramseys" as though they were a dramatic team, like "the Lunts." The fact is they are two very different people and their behavior after the murder has been very different as well. Patsy behaved in a manner that some have described as "histrionic" but could also have been the honest response of a devastated mother. John behaved very cooly, very politely, the perfect host. It was he, NOT Patsy, who went AWOL for anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour and a half. It was HE who discovered an open window and then closed it without telling anyone. It was HE who lawyered up right away. It was HE who was insulted at the mere mention of a polygraph (Patsy offered to take 10). Patsy is reported to have looked at a policeman through splayed fingers. My THAT sounds suspicious doesn't it? But John was so anxious about the outcome of the investigation into the note that he hired two of his own "experts" to examine it first. And when cornered on the polygraph issue, hired his own polygrapher -- making sure HE wasn't asked anything about the note, only Patsy.

But hey, Patsy is the "drama queen," right? So she MUST be guilty. Yeah, I get it. And what about those splayed fingers, eh? And that remark about "Southern common sense" why that has her written all over it, no?

 

No, I don't think she was a devastated mother, Doc. She was a " purposely doped-up-mother" so that she was "non compus mentis" when it came to being questioned by the police.

Patsy has told too many lies. all the posters know them, from stating JonBenét wore a red top and changing it to the white one she was found dead in to suit her own story, and many many more.

I agree with all you have to say about John Ramsey here. He was a cold fish during the morning of the 26 December, 1996.

I'm back to the Ramsey team of Patsy and John, Doc. They both behaved in a very strange manner. Officer French picked up on "something not being right" from his training as a cop. As for Patsy peeping through her fingers. The stupid woman was out of it with tranquilizers, when she should have been 100% alert for her supposedly kidnapped daughter. What mother, with any brains, would want to be sedated while waiting for a call from a kidnapper? I certainly wouldn't!

Why is it, Doc, that I'm having a feeling of deja vu of posting with my old friend Toth from CN2000 today, while posting with you (?).

 

Another question

DocG

You certainly have thought through the details of your theory. In your response to one of my questions, you wrote -

As I recall, two police officers and Fleet White "searched" the home for JonBenet, albiet not throughly. From the time the first officer searched the home around 6:00 AM until 1:00 PM when John 'discovered' the body, the group of officers and friends present in the home did not suspect JonBenet was in the basement.

As I read your theory, it would seem that John's plan, with the exception of Patsy calling 911, was working. By noon, police presence in the home had been reduced to one detective, Linda Arndt. Things "were winding down" at the house. Surely John didn't have too much longer to wait until everyone was gone.

When the few remaining friends, Patsy and Burke, and Linda left, he would soon be able to proceed to his next step, removal of the body.

So why do you think John ruined his own plan by 'discovering' the body himself just as everything seemed to 'going according to his plan?'

-Catfish

 

Catfish

What ruined the plan was Patsy calling 911. Once the police were there it was just a matter of time before the body would be found. And don't forget, this is just after the Susan Smith case, the mother who murdered her adorable little boys, remember? So I don't think the police were about to let the Ramseys go unattended any time soon. For John to attempt to get the body out of the house at that point would have been the equivalent of sitting in the electric chair and begging someone to plug it in. No, his plan A was shot. He was forced to move to plan B, which was much more tricky, complicated and iffy. So long as the body was going to be found anyhow, it would be better for him to find it. By finding it first, it would be HE who controlled the crime scene, who described exactly where the body was and what condition it was in.

 

Tick Tock

Now let's assume the note was written in an attempt to keep the house from being searched by the police. That makes no sense at all to me. If you don't want the police to search the house you don't call and invite them over in the first place. Once they're IN the house, that's it, you've forever lost your opportunity to get rid of the body.

And time wasn't running out at all. If the two of them are in it together there's nothing simpler than cancelling their trip. Just tell everyone concerned (including Burke) the "truth": "JonBenet's been kidnapped, we're trying to deal with the kidnappers and are afraid to call the police so please tell no one about this." Now they'd have all the time in the world. DocG

DocG, I'm trying to play your game here. We are under the impression that your theroy requries John to be acting alone. Somehow the terrible crime happens. John now must cover it up. So time IS running out for him. He has failed to remove the body and he must have a way to explain JBR not being there when Patsy (and Burke)awakes. So the ransome note is written for most of the reasons you already went over. But she does call the police for whatever reason and now his plan "A" is shot. He is shocked that the house is searched by others yet JBR is not found and is convinced he cannot remove the body. So now plan "B". He goes to the basement and then sets the crime scene up to look like a molestation. Comes back up stairs. Then when searching the basement again (with Fleet) "finds" the body. Carrying the body upstairs knowingly destroying most of the evidence at the crime scene.


I have two questions however. All of the things that must of took place from the time the crime started to the cover up must of taken a great deal of time. If John was missing from bed for that long would'nt Patsy wonder where he was at some point and go looking? Maybe it would not be unusual for him to be gone from bed for hours? Could be. But after he carrys JBR up from the basement she must realize shes been had. Why continue the cover up? Does John threaten to implicate her?

Im not sure I agree with you but it is at least a good possibility.

 

DocG,S OPINION

Hi Docg

I Have Been Silently Lurking And Reading Your Intake On The Ram,s Until Now. I Think You Show Some Great Insight. I Am Open To Your Way Of Thinking. I Do Have A Question Though. From What Was Reported Patsy Said She Didn't Read The Whole Ransom Note Before Calling The Police,although She Knew A Lot Of What Was Written When She Talked To The Operator. Do You Think She Was In On The Whole Cover Up before Or after She Read This? You Said That She Called The Police Even Though Jr Had Probably Asked Her Not To. So You Think after.......then Why Did She Lie? What Reason Did She Have For That? ....also If The Police Already Searched The House What Made Him Think They Would Again? Why Not Just Wait For Them To Leave-they Would Eventially(they Left Scott Petersons). He Could Have Put The Sweet Little Jbr In A Suitcase Or A Trunk And Pack Her Up In The Car As Luggage. Then Lied To Pr And Said The Kidnappers Called And I Will Stop To Drop Off The Money And Dispose Of The Body?

 

Why didn't Patsy get up when JR brought JonBenet up the stairs? Reports indicate that she remained motionless until dragged to the location where JonBenet was. It appears she already knew JonBenet's sad fate.

[I've also been lurking until now. I think your attempt, DocG, is very commendable.]

 

Why not wait?

also If The Police Already Searched The House What Made Him Think They Would Again? Why Not Just Wait For Them To Leave-they Would Eventially(they Left Scott Petersons). He Could Have Put The Sweet Little Jbr In A Suitcase Or A Trunk And Pack Her Up In The Car As Luggage. Then Lied To Pr And Said The Kidnappers Called And I Will Stop To Drop Off The Money And Dispose Of The Body?



Well I don't know what DocG may think, in fact I'm not sure I agree with him yet but I'll say that S.Peterson already removed the body before the police and media attention. Even with the police gone the Ramsey house would be getting major attention for days.

 

zman

"So now plan "B". He goes to the basement and then sets the crime scene up to look like a molestation. Comes back up stairs. Then when searching the basement again (with Fleet) "finds" the body. Carrying the body upstairs knowingly destroying most of the evidence at the crime scene."

No I don't think he set it up to look like molestation. Why would he want to do that? If he's the killer then you can bet he was already molesting her. The reason he had to find the body first is because it was most likely hidden under blankets in a corner of the room. Which is why Fleet didn't see her. He had to be there first so he could claim (as he did) that she was right out in the open. If she'd been found carefully hidden away in that room, it would have looked very suspicious. Also by carrying her he provided an innocent reason for his fibers to be found on the body.

"I have two questions however. All of the things that must of took place from the time the crime started to the cover up must of taken a great deal of time. If John was missing from bed for that long would'nt Patsy wonder where he was at some point and go looking? Maybe it would not be unusual for him to be gone from bed for hours? Could be. But after he carrys JBR up from the basement she must realize shes been had. Why continue the cover up? Does John threaten to implicate her?"

That's a very good point. If John had been anticipating a rendezvous with JonBenet it's possible he put something in Patsy's drink to make her sleep soundly. Burke too. But it's also possible she'd awakened in the middle of the night and noticed that John wasn't in bed. I don't see why she'd need to go looking for him. She probably just fell back asleep. I do think she's lying about certain details of this case so that could be one of them.

As for the reason why she's covering for John on these points, we have to return to the days just after the murder. John is refusing to allow Patsy to be questioned by the police. HE is willing to be questioned but he won't allow HER to be questioned. Why might that be? If they are both innocent and had nothing to hide he wouldn't care, would he? And if they are both guilty then they'd get together on a story and cooperate from day one. No, the only reason to stonewall that way would be if there were certain facts about the case that Patsy knew and John didn't want the police to know. He would have needed time to persuade her to tell some white lies. Then came the bombshell: John was declared "ruled out" as writer of the note. From that point on Patsy had to be convinced of his innocence. And from that point on SHE becomes the number one suspect. Now John and the lawyers he's hired become her prime supporter. If she's convinced of his innocence then why not go along with some white lies to make him look better? How would it look if she'd testified that, yes, she awoke and he wasn't in bed? Or if she'd contradicted him publicly during the CNN interview and insisted that SHE was the one who decided to call 911, NOT John? How would that have looked? Their legal strategy has been a team strategy from day one. Possibly even the lawyers encouraged her to bend the truth a bit, what harm would it do?

The fact remains that if Patsy had been in on this crime and covering it up she'd have acted differently and the call would not have been made. So if she is now lying about that call, it's got to be for relatively innocent reasons. Essentially to protect her husband. Why wouldn't she want to do that?

 

Quinn

I don't believe their story about what happened prior to the 911 call. It simply isn't credible no matter what your theory of the case might be. Of course they both read -- and discussed -- the note. Who wouldn't? So why would Patsy lie about that if she were innocent? See my response to zman above. If John is guilty then you can be sure he's an extremely manipulative fellow. Is it so hard then to assume he's manipulating Patsy?

If they admitted they'd discussed the note, they'd leave themselves open for questioning as to exactly what was said. And IMO what was said was that John didn't want the call made. Much easier to just deny there was any conversatoin at all then try to make up a story they'd both have to stick to even when questioned seperately about the exact wording of what was said.

As far as waiting for the police to leave, no, that wouldn't have worked. As zman stated, they'd be under continual observation by the authorities. They WERE assigned a police guard, by the way, for several days after the murder, for their own protection. No, the time to dump the body was passed. Plan B was sheer desperation, improvisation. And somehow it worked.

 

amordei

I think it's very unfair to try to infer guilt or innocence from that sort of behavior. Patsy would have been under tremendous stress, maybe she could already infer, from what she'd just then heard, that JonBenet was dead. Maybe she wasn't in such a hurry to confront the body of her daughter. To assume she must be guilty because of her extremely emotional behavior that day seems extremely unfair. John went awol for a long time, said he went looking for clues, but when he found some he told no one about them. Now THAT sounds suspicious. Hesitating before confronting the reality of a beloved child's fate seems rather human to me.

 

DocG

I commend you on your efforts in analyizing the purpose behind the ransom note. Your analysis is well thought through and presented. Also, thank you for your thoughful responses to all of my questions about your theory.

A few days ago, I posted a thread titled "Events on The Night of December 25, 1996." In that thread, I presented a theory of events the night JonBenet died and responded to questions about why I believe that Patsy acted alone in JonBenet's death.

I still believe that Patsy is solely responsible for JonBenet's death. However your analysis of the reason behind the ransom note provides quite a different interpertation of that part of the evidence.

What your thread has done for me is illustrate why no one has ever been prosecuted in this tragedy. You've illustrated that no matter how convincing of a case a prosecuter presents, an equally plausable counter argument can be made. That is so sad.

-Catfish

 

I certainly don't think that Patsy delaying her confrontation with the dead body of her daughter is dispositive of her guilt. However, it does make me think she, at the very least, knew something. I understand that others can have differing inferrences from that observation. My radar just goes off--I don't think I would remain frozen for long.

I myself am on the fence as between the various Ramseys & Paughs (BR, PR, JR, JAR, GPP--in order), so I appreciate your exploration of the JR scenario (which gets precious little attention).