Window Screens- All that stood between police and JonBenet's body

"the church members huddled around them to protect them from man's law"

I don't think it was the intent of Rol and church members to protect them from man's law that day, but somehow I do think they have been protected from man's laws as result of the "huddling."

"Patsy was heavily influenced by her religious beliefs," ... I agree, and others also.

"...and even cried out “Jesus, you raised Lazarus from the dead, please raise my baby! ...

"Patsy did quite a lot of praying and speaking to God, right in front of people who probably didn't understand that she was praying for forgiveness not the safe return of her child."

Here I disagree. I'd say she was indeed praying for her child to be raised from the dead; I don't think she was praying for forgiveness.

 

Kidnapping/Search

I'm no expert but if someone is kidnapped from a home or from anywhere for that matter would'nt the home become a crime scene with everyone being removed, yellow tape put up all over, police guarding the doors and a complete search of the CRIME SCENE taking place asap. Maybe even with pictures and a video camera. I guess I'm watching to much television.

 

JustinCase,

I'm confused again about what you are saying about the screens hiding Jon'Benet's body. You are supposing that she was there in that water heater room for a time then. Do we have any idea that she was there at all? She wasn't found there at all.

Having her arms in rigor extended over her head has been a puzzle for me from the start. But that is just one of several puzzles.

I have to agree with whoever mentioned that having all the friends over that morning to comiserate with Patsy is perhaps one of the strangest things that ever happened. There is also a mention somewhere of Patsy sitting in the sun room with her hands to her face but peeking out of splayed fingers at what was going on out of that room. And again I bring up her being faint and vomiting...pretty dramatic and way over the top. Hence those two scenes don't match...peeking through splayed fingers and seeing what was going on elsewhere and fainting and vomiting with the news of her being "kidnapped". Missy drama queen at her finest!

Also I have always wondered about the tension in the household as the hour approached 10AM and the "kidnappers" didn't call. There doesn't seem to be any refrence to that in all of the books. It seems it passed and then so what! Very strange behavior.

I came across a section in Dr. Lee's book last evening (sorry no page number right now) where it stated that Fleet White has had a great deal of trouble reasoning out and feeling very guilty why he didn't find JBR's body in that room when he looked in it. It has bothered him greatly. Also and this is my opinion only since that was a closed room with no window or ventilation in it when the door was opened shouldn't there have been the odor of death right then? It is a pretty powerful stink that one doesn't forget easily. Maybe that is what John was reacting to when he called out "Oh, my God, Oh, my God" before the light was turned on. The sad but pungent reality of Johny-B's death. Just a thought. It could have overpowered him at that moment too!

 

See, we may not agree that it was the intent for the huddling to have had such a profound effect as far as the investigation went; but we can still agree that the actions of the entire group indicate that they were there to protect and not to support. They were all 'influential' in one way or another, and I think that the police probably felt more than dominated by a rich family and all their rich friends; I honestly believe that was Patsy's intent, not the group of them herding over there to protect her with that intent.

I actually added that in there more for speculating what would have caused her to pray the way she did that day, I can understand her praying for JonBenet's safe return because any mother in her alleged situation would have done it; and I can also understand [given her state of heavily religious influence] that she would say something like she did say about raising her from the dead; but at the same time, if she did kill JonBenet and she did believe in God, I can also see her praying for forgiveness for her sin.

I have trouble with what Rol was doing there, I can see him responding to support the family because he was a friend as well, but with everyone else there I don't know that he'd want to wedge himself in there with everyone else that was there to support them; unless he had a genuine purpose for being there.

Maybe he was called before the police were called that morning to assess the situation, which would be necessary if JonBenet had been badly injured whether she went to the hospital or not:

http://www.dioceseny.org/index.cfm?Action=AboutUs.DeferringDeathDying

"The 1975 Convention stated its belief 'that life should not be arrogantly and futilely prolonged in those instances where there is no reasonable expectation of genuine hope of recovery.' Its resolution declared that 'in consultation with their physician and priest, persons (or members of the family when the patients are incompetent) may rightly request that no heroic or extraordinary measures be employed to defer death, and that physicians and others responsible for the care and comfort of these patients are morally obligated to be attentive and give respectful consideration to the wishes and requests of these patients.'"

JonBenet's major injuries were defined as fatal but asphyxiation was the actual cause of death, the head injury would have been fatal had enough time passed for that to occur. According to a 1975 Episcopal Convention, Rol would have needed to have been contacted as would Dr. Beuf, and in consultation with those two, it would be decided whether to save her life or let her die. Maybe they concluded that the head injury was much too severe and believed she would never recover.

 

Fleet White said he checked the room JonBenet was found in earlier in the morning but didn't see what John Ramsey said he saw before he turned on the light, so I went looking for another place the body could've been hidden to see whether it was possible that happnened; when I saw the window screens piled up there like that I thought it was normal at first, until I saw the freezer hidden in behind them.

The amount of freezer visible in the crime scene photo in contrast to it's location in other photos, was quite different. It was pulled out so that it was nearly protruding out of the space it was sitting in. In other photo's I saw it had been moved farther back making less of the freezer visible, which also created an area of space in front or beside (I don't know which way it opened) that would have been between the wall and the freezer while it was pulled out like it was in the crime scene photo.

I was only suggesting that a set-up like this could have been a possible location for hiding the body and later relocating it to the wine cellar where it could be discovered by someone, not necessarily John. I think if the body was moved from one location to another, it was done because they knew things were looking bad for them and they knew the police could take over the house and have them out within minutes; if they found the body there, it would be a lot harder to explain why she was so well hidden.

This puzzles me too.

I also agree that all of the people invited over was strange, if not just strange, it was an entirely selfish move on her part to wake all of those people up and drag them out of bed to come over and support her? There has to be more to it than just that.

And her overkill dramatics were something I first thought normal for someone in her situation, but vomitting and fainting are a little too much for. Anyone could've gotten themselves together if it truly were a life and death situation and if what she was saying was true. Instead all I saw was a terribly emotionally distraught mother who was grieving the loss of her allegedly missing child several hours before she was supposed to know she was dead.

This is something I've always wondered about, because I've read that John was pacing back and forth at other times throughout the day, but between 8 and 10 he didn't seem to be as anxious or impatient. I think if he was waiting for a call from a kidnapper he'd be anxious for it to take place, if only to be able to speak with JonBenet; something the police suggested he demand to do if they called.

This is why I went on the hunt for another place the body could've been down there, I know John had the opportunity to move it because he's admitted to being down there alone; I think he only admitted to this because it's never been suggested that her body was moved. I think if the body had been in that room when Fleet looked in there he would have seen her, the white blanket laying right there in his peripheral vision...

I can't find the page I read it on, but I swear Dr. Lee said that police officers looked in that room too, but that could just be him quoting the highly appreciated but just as outdated, PMPT.

That's a really good point, and at that time of discovery the odor was present, Linda Arndt is a witness to the smell. It probably did overpower him after having been closed up in that room for a while, even if she was moved there from another spot it would still be really bad just because she was in there; I totally overlooked the smell of the body when it's one thing that couldn't have been mistaken or missed.

Extending from your thoughts about the odor:
I have never seen a picture of what the floor in the area surrounding the boiler and window screens, I wonder if a bunch of stuff was piled there so it wasn't possible to walk close enough to the area to smell the odor... I know Dr. Lee's book also mentions Fleet having a difficult time getting through the basement because of the excessive clutter.

 

Thanks for the kudos JIC , but I should have also added that "this was also part of the staging" to make it look like there was some pedophile action, and if there was, why would the pedophile have bothered to release her from wherever she was tied up?

Getting back to the John Walsh statement about John Ramsey cutting her down. Why would he have made a statement like that, only to keep quiet about it and never talk about it again?

I'll check with Thor, and see if she can throw any more light on this subject.
We did look for this transcript, and couldn't find it. I do remember a period of time when many of the JonBenét sites on the net seemed to disappear. This would be around the time Lin Wood was dropping lawsuits from a plane.

I'm not too sure that the disarrangement of the curtain ties may have been caused by Patsy struggling to haul JonBenét from bed or just a plain struggle in the room itself, if she was in a rage. (?)..

As Delmar England keeps telling me ..."Stick with the evidence that is present." I believe the garrotte was staged; therefore what thoughts are concocted from this staging can lead you away from the main track.. Patsy and John Ramsey worked overtime to do exactly just that; the broken window story; the chair at the door; the stuttering and stammering of Patsy talking about what she did that morning in the laundry upstairs. All lies!

 

Elle, I remember watching Larry King Live, I would guess about 2 years ago maybe. John Walsh was on and the program wasn't entirely about JonBenet at all, just John Walsh discussing crimes and his TV show. I remember him saying something like "when her father cut her down" or something like that. Implying that she was found (to me) hanging and John cut the ropes to get her down. At least that's how I envisioned the scene he described. I remember there was quite an uproar on the forums and lots of people were calling Larry King's show and possibly John Walsh himself, asking him to elaborate. I do remember no one got a response to confirm what he said. But I heard it myself. I remember I even watched the repeat later on. Wish we could get a confirmation. Perhaps Walsh has info we don't and he wasn't supposed to say anything.

Also, speaking of Patsy's vomiting, when my 23 year daughter didn't come home this past June and we had to call the police, I started throwing up when the realization hit me that she may have been abducted or dead. My stomach was tied up in knots and I vomited off and on during the day until we found out she was OK later that night. I couldn't eat for about 3 days I was so upset. I didn't faint or anything like that, but when I get nervous or upset I cannot eat and if it involves a loved one's death or disappearance, this is how I react. I remember when Mr.Thor's mother died of a heart attack in 1992, when I got the news at home, the first thing I did was puke.

 

Thor

Thank you for the confirmation, Thor. I knew you had seen it and commented on it, and finding out anything about it after it was a trial. It's about time John Walsh was taken to task.

Yes, I understand about the nervous stomach's reaction to a traumatic event.
I act in a totally different way. I'm usually very calm in any emergency, and deal with the reaction a few days later in a different way.

I'm sure your reaction was genuine, and I'm glad your daughter turned up.
With Patsy Ramsey being such a drama queen, I'm not so sure!

 

I've pictured a few scenarios. The only one I can actually see 'working' includes JonBenet standing on a chair and the cord was tied onto one wrist, and weaved through the piping just below the ceiling; then the other cord was tied to her other wrist. Whether she were conscious or unconscious, it's possible that they did this as a layer of staging to make people think she'd benn held against her will; but it didn't point to an intruder because no intruder in their right mind would do more than go in and get the kid; anything else would be an after-thought when they actually got her out of the house.

<!--StartFragment -->This is John Walsh's birthday:
<DT>Date of birth: 26 December 1945
</DT><DT>WEIRD.
</DT><DT>
</DT><DT>I couldn't find the transcript you mention so here's what John Walsh had to say about the JonBenet case in 2001 on LKL,
</DT><!--StartFragment -->CALLER: Hello. My question is for your guest, Larry. I wonder, there's three parts to the question. I wanted to know if he has any comments about the JonBenet case in Colorado, and the second part to that question is, if that case will ever be solved? And the third part to that question is, doesn't he think it's really weird the way those parents acted from the beginning of that case, when they were doing everything possible to protect themselves rather than to find out what were -- who were the real killers of his daughter?

KING: OK, we got it. John?

Walsh: I've been to Dubai, hunting fugitives -- terrorists out there.

I don't think that that case will ever, will ever be solved, because now it's been taken over by the state, you know, the attorney general of the state of Colorado, because so many incredible mistakes were made at the crime scene at the beginning.

KING: From the get-go.

Walsh: From the get-go. And then they empaneled a grand jury and brought DAs from every county around Colorado, and they all came to the same conclusion. They said whether the Ramseys had something to do with it or not, there was such poor police work was done in the beginning, this case will probably never be solved.

Parents have the right to get lawyers. They have the right to get -- you know, to have people represent them if they think the cops are doing a bad job. I always wanted to do that case on "America's Most Wanted." And Mr. Ramsey said, I'd like to do it. Mrs. Ramsey said no. I said, I'll treat you fairer than anybody else in the world. Let me do a whole hour on "America's Most Wanted." But they're going to start over and take a re-look at the case. That's what I say you have to do. You have to throw everything out and start again.

KING: Are you open on it?

Walsh: I am open minded about it, because they only ever focused on the parents. A good investigation is a parallel investigation. Sweat the parents, but don't rule out the sexual offender that may be living within a mile of there.

 

"...but at the same time, if she did kill JonBenet and she did believe in God, I can also see her praying for forgiveness for her sin."

Right. But I don't remember reading that she was praying for that.

I don't know about calling church friends and priest for kidnapping. I do know it's done when there is a death.

 

I never said it was written anywhere, and like I said before, that part was added in there as speculation, as in, my opinion about why she prayed all that day.

It's actually also done when a person is injured beyond anyone believing they'd recover, the priest and a physician would then make the decision in collaboration with the family as to whether extraordinary measures should be taken to save her life.
http://www.dioceseny.org/index.cfm?...rringDeathDying

 

(because so many incredible mistakes were made at the crime scene at the beginning.)


(Sweat the parents)

This is where it's got to go. Its a real shame that no one will charge John and Patsy. I'll bet on the stand someone would crack. Maybe Burke. He at least must know what happend that night. O.J. was one man. It's much harder to keep a secret between two let alone three people under the stress of a trial. I wonder how many other stories might change under the pressure of a trial.

I would love to give the Ramsey's the benefit of doubt, but it's so hard when they did everything possible to hamper the investigation. The worst of all I think is when John carries the body up from the basement. He is a very smart and succsessful man. He must of known he was destroying any evidence that could help police indentify an "intruder". Not to mention you should never try to move an injured person unless you have no choice.

Im going to back and see if I can find it but I read somewhere that JBR was really afraid to be in the basement. I wonder if being tied up in the basement was some sort of punishment for bad behavior? Wetting the bed...Sneaking down and eating pineapple? I've heard worse stories.

 

JIC,

Save yourself some work and just call me Elle. The
_1 was added by Moab because I was having trouble
signing in, and she added this on; something like that, but
there's no need to type _1 .

 

Most natural scenario to me is ... ...

I hardly think this scenario fits in with the Ramseys preparing to leave for an early flight to Charlevoix the next day. I honestly think it was an accidental death caused by Patsy Ramsey being all stressed out, as Detective Steve Thomas stated in his book "JonBenét. Patsy was very harassed with all she had to cope with the following morning.

The most natural scenario to me, is a mother wakening up her daughter "as per usual" at midnight every night to prevent a soiled bed, and with Patsy Ramsey under stress, finding JonBenét in a soiled bed was the last straw. JonBenét, according to her Grandma Nedra Paugh created bloody murder when she was hauled from her bed.

JonBenét was probably overtired from her Outing and Christmas day in general. and she may have soiled herself before the midnight "wakeup call," and Patsy lost it. It's the most practical theory, and it ended in disaster. jmo of course.

 

I didn't think you were saying it was written anywhere, JIC. But I did think I could have missed it if it were written somewhere. I just don't think she was praying for forgiveness. But I don't think she murdered her daughter, either. Yes, I've heard of a priest being called in when someone is about to die, too.